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Author Topic: Will the Body Count be a Cover-Up?
Michael Nenonen
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posted 09 September 2005 04:59 PM      Profile for Michael Nenonen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to Democracy Now, journalists are being prevented from filming or photographing the bodies in New Orleans. CNN, meanwhile, has reported that far fewer bodies than expected are being found. Perhaps my cynicism is getting the better of me, but I wonder if the administration's going to intentionally deflate the body count figures.

Here are the links to the relevant pieces on Democracy Now and CNN:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/09/1411231

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/09/katrina.evac.ap/index.html

[ 09 September 2005: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]

[ 09 September 2005: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 09 September 2005 07:07 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Nenonen:
According to Democracy Now, journalists are being prevented from filming or photographing the bodies in New Orleans. CNN, meanwhile, has reported that far fewer bodies than expected are being found. Perhaps my cynicism is getting the better of me, but I wonder if the administration's going to intentionally deflate the body count figures.

I don't know that I'd be worried about deflation of the body count.

Alas, the incidents those reporters described are not all that uncommon in US press/police relations-- especially when the police are taking someone down a little... rougher... than perhaps is necessary.

As far as pix and/or video of bodies, it depends a bit on the attitude of the jurisdicition, but most US cops won't let a photog get images of a body unless it is covered, or from a very great distance. That's generally the policy for murder victims, fire deaths, etc.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 09 September 2005 09:50 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Someone needs to organize a Katrina Victims web site to collect the names of all of those who are missing. They can say whatever they want but people have family and they have neighbours and using the web would allow a data base to be created.
From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 09 September 2005 09:54 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I wonder if the administration's going to intentionally deflate the body count figures.

They might like to, but I seriously doubt they'd be able to. Considering the number of people they'd have to co-opt or silence -- at the state and local government levels, particularly -- the co-ordinated effort needed would dwarf that of the relief operation. And look how competently they handled that.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 09 September 2005 09:58 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Expanding my post from another thread: US government is banning media from showing pictures of the dead; so CNN is suing for the right to air the photos; Link right here.
quote:
...CNN has obtained a restraining order to allow access to the search and recovery of the dead from Hurricane Katrina...
DailyKos comments; also wondering about coverup but noting that NBC thought a higher death toll is still possible and ABC showing the dead apparently in defiance.

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 09 September 2005 10:03 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's James Wolcott, on why the Republicans would probably like to spin the number of dead, whatever that turns out to be.

quote:
When one of those leftist critics, Norman Mailer, deplored the bloated vanity of American self-involvement post-9/11 and pointed out that 3000 dead was statistically small in a population our size--"By such heartless means of calculation, the 3000 deaths in the Twin Towers came approximately to one mortality for every 90,000 Americans. Your chances of dying if you drive a car are one in 7,000 each year. We seem perfectly ready to put up with automobile statistics. I fear I am ready to say there is a tolerable level to terror..."--conservatives rushed out to renew their distemper shots, they were so spitting mad.

But now that the death toll from Katrina is threatening the inviolable aura of "3000 dead," rightwingers are playing their own form of hopscotch to put things in "proper perspective." They recognize they're in danger of losing a mass grave marker on the high moral ground.

Today, James S. Robbins pulled a Mailer on NRO, using not automobile accidents but a household item found in every medicine cabinet as his point of comparison.

"Of course, the parallels between 9/11 and Katrina are at best inexact. Hurricanes are more frequent than terrorist attacks. They are more predictable. And they are often more devastating. Katrina is a case in point — the number of deaths may go well beyond those incurred on 9/11. But that will not in itself make the hurricane a more significant event. One cannot gauge the magnitude of events simply from body counts. Aspirin abuse accounted for about twice the number of American deaths in 2001 than the September 11 attacks, but who noticed?"

Robbins did. You can't put anything past this guy.

A more vulgar effort to shrink Katrina's impact as a national tragedy was made by Jack Burkman, a member in good standing of the vile order of Republican strategists, who said on MSNBC, "I understand there are 10,000 people dead. It's terrible. It's tragic. But in a democracy of 300 million people, over years and years and years, these things happen."

When political whores take the long view, you know they're running scared. But I would advise conservative hacks like Robbins and Burkman that it's unwise to get philosophical on us at this late date, and not just because they're lacking the proper intellectual equipment and stoic temperament (Epictetus, they're not). For, pace Burkman, if 10,000 deaths amount to but a drop of blood in the abattoir of time, 3000 is an even smaller drop, and once you begin to shrug off large numbers of dead to the caprices of fate, striking a militant pose over a smaller number becomes even harder.

Nor will it do to argue, in effect, Hey, our dead don't stack up as high as those decadent Euroweenies' do, as Jonah Goldberg just did from his potty throne at NRO's "The Corner."

"HEAT WAVES [Jonah Goldberg]
Rich - Let's also not forget that in 2003 more than 11,000 people died from a heat wave in Europe (3,000 in France alone) and we all know how enlightened their policies are.
Posted at 04:50 PM"



From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 09 September 2005 10:25 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Editor & Publisher article Sept 8.
quote:
NEW YORK Forced to defend what some critics consider its slow response to the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina, the Federal Emergency Management Agency said on Tuesday it does not want the news media to take photographs of the dead as they are recovered from New Orleans.

FEMA, which is leading the rescue efforts, rejected requests from journalists to accompany rescue boats as they went out to search for storm victims, Reuters reported....


Later FEMA apparnelty said this was a request not a directive. Poynter online discussion


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 09 September 2005 11:01 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They didn't count the victims of their agression in Iraq, don't expect them to provide the true numbers in NO. That would highlight the results of their agression against the poor.
From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tom Moore
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posted 09 September 2005 11:22 PM      Profile for Tom Moore   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actual numbers appear to be lower than projected.
From: location, location.. | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 10 September 2005 12:56 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We'll see. How much you want to bet it will be 300 people reported dead, 10,000 just missing? Then a barrage of repugnican talking points claiming that these people liked Texas so much they didn't want to come back and that's why they haven't been accounted for, or something equally ridiculous.

It's true they'll have a hard time covering up the body count, but I know for a fact they'll try. If they can't cover it up, they'll confuse it or try to claim something other than the hurricane killed them. The one thing I know about these guys is they believe they can spin anything (and why shouldn't they? Hasn't failed yet). If the body count is in the thousands, they won't just take it on the chin, they'll fight back.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 10 September 2005 01:19 AM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is not only those who have died, it is also those who are dying now as a result of Katrina. They should be included in the total count.
From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reelpolatik
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posted 11 September 2005 08:18 PM      Profile for Reelpolatik     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Clearly the body count issue is paramount. Kept confusingly low as long as possible. Bashing Nagin with his statement about 10,000 dead. To solidify his failure in the public mind.

One strategy appears to be to minimize the official body count. Not counting body bags until the corpses are processed. Only counting deaths that are finalized as directly attributable to the hurricane. This could turn into a long term strategy.

Example being Jefferson County, on 9/10/05, with 20 hurricane related deaths out of 152 bodies found. Versus a total official body count for Louisiana on 9/11/05 of 197.

Have a hard time imagining a massive prolonged cover-up. That would seem to require secretly disposing of bodies. But do see separating and confusing categories for propaganda purposes. In a manner that is not so obviously dishonest.

Realistically they will only try to keep the body count ridiculously low for another week or so. That will provide time to stay ahead of the story. But long term might expect secrecy about the total number of body bags "from all causes."


From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 12 September 2005 05:14 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What, exactly, could possibly be gained - and by whom - from falsifying the death toll from Hurricane Katrina ?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 12 September 2005 05:29 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maikeru:
What, exactly, could possibly be gained - and by whom - from falsifying the death toll from Hurricane Katrina ?

Why don't you think about it for a bit? (Give yourself a minute and a half.)


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 12 September 2005 07:40 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thwap:
Why don't you think about it for a bit? (Give yourself a minute and a half.)

Oh...good answer.
Falsifying the death toll from Hurricane Katrina would give 90 seconds pause for thought.

Anyone else ?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 12 September 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's see, if only a few died then they didn't screw up that badly.

Anyone else?


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 12 September 2005 08:52 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And they have extensive practice not counting bodies in Iraq, not allowing photos to be taken of dead soldiers' coffins, not mentioning dead soldiers, even more carefully not mentioning dead Iraqi civilians, avoiding grieving mothers like Cindy Sheehan, etc., etc.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 12 September 2005 09:52 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
'they' ?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 September 2005 10:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They being Paul Bremmer, who ordered Iraqi hospitals to stop conducting a civilian body count when he was in charge of the CPA, even though the Iraqi hospitals engaged in the practice as a matter of there normal professional conduct.

Also they miscount GI's KIA. I remember when the war began, I went through the Yahoo list based on the the Pentagon list, of KIA US soldiers, their manner of death etc. On several occassions I noticed stories being reported in the media, such as a Bradley that went over a bridge after being hit by an RPG, no showing up as KIA's even though the crew was drowned. The Pentagon list never showed US soldiers as KIA, drowned, on that date, or on any date in that month.

Those kinds of anomalies. I also had a Dutch friend who served in Bosnia who remembered investigating a sight where four GI's were shot in the head at close range in their Jeep. He said it never came up in the officila NATO list for war killed.

The US has a number of foreign mercenaries fighting in Iraq, mostly from Mexico, and Africa, whom presumably will get citizenship if they live through the war. Families have complained that there sons have not been reported as killed as US army dead. So, there is no doubt in my mind that "they" are finding ways to supress the number of dead.

Why wouldn't they?

[ 12 September 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 12 September 2005 10:37 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]They being Paul Bremmer,... ... So, there is no doubt in my mind that "they" are finding ways to supress the number of dead.
Why wouldn't they?

Thanks for the hearsay on Iraq and around the world - but what, exactly, is Paul's motive for falsifying the Hurricane Katrina death toll ?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
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posted 12 September 2005 10:46 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You'd have to be pretty thick not to figure this out.

From the shrub on down, the lower the body count the easier it is to justify 'their' non-action. A fringe benifit is that the mayor of NOLA who went public against 'them' will look like a start raving lunatic with the 10,000 dead projection......Shall I continue or am I already over your head?


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 12 September 2005 11:18 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maikeru:

Oh...good answer.
Falsifying the death toll from Hurricane Katrina would give 90 seconds pause for thought.

Anyone else ?


maikeru,

i know you're just a dishonest troll, but if you're going to pose as an earnest, innocent naif, at least try to be comprehensible.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 12:30 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yukoner:
You'd have to be pretty thick not to figure this out.
From the shrub on down, the lower the body count the easier it is to justify 'their' non-action.
[QUOTE]
You're suggesting that falsifying the death toll downwards justifies non-action from the President on down to whom ?

How many deaths would be a satisfactory number to assure you that the Bush administration was not falsifying figures ?

Would the Mayor's projections, if accurate, exonerate his own actions in the disaster - or would they indicate that the civic administration was incapable of protecting citizens within its' own domain from natural disasters where forewarning was actually available - unlike, say, the San Francisco quake?

I don't see the benefit there that would warrant
falsification by the feds- perhaps you could say what would actually be gained.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 12:41 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thwap:
i know you're just a dishonest troll, but if you're going to pose as an earnest, innocent naif, at least try to be comprehensible.

Why not address the question - or simply read what others have to say - rather than trolling your own misgivings ?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
simonvallee
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posted 13 September 2005 12:46 AM      Profile for simonvallee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just like with the policy of not showing images of coffins coming home from Iraq, the objective of a death toll cover-up would be about preventing the death toll to shock people and convince them that it was really a disaster and that it was managed badly. Therefore it would limit questionning about the competency of the Administration by giving the impression that initial reports were exagerated, which would then shatter somewhat the credibility of all reports that spoke of a deficient answer to the crisis.

I can already imagine all the right-wing spinsters saying continually "Liberals tried to exagerate a real crisis in order to use it to launch an political attack on our Fearless Leader, look, they were speaking of an enormous death toll of Y but there was only X dead. It is disgusting on their parts and all patriotic Americans should hate them for it."


From: Boucherville, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2005 12:49 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maikeru:

Thanks for the hearsay on Iraq and around the world - but what, exactly, is Paul's motive for falsifying the Hurricane Katrina death toll ?


Sorry if you are having short term memory loss. You were responding to a statement where someone spoke about Iraq, I responded by noting the person directly referred as "they" to, by the poster that you responded too, was Paul Bremmer, the former US head of the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq.

I have friends with ADD, and so I don't mind at all bringing you up to speed on the train of thought expressed in this thread and your previous responses.

In general I noted both based on my on research, on the US KIA body count and also interviews with UN soldiers who had been in Bosnia, who had bothered to do more with their lives than troll internet forums, that some accounting of death tolls has been either intentionally covered up, as in the case of the civilian death toll in Iraq, or in the case of US military body counts, fudged.
]

quote:
Dr. Nagham Mohsen, the head of the ministry's statistics department, said the order was relayed to her by the ministry's director of planning, Dr. Nazar Shabandar, who said it came on behalf of Abbas. She said the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, which oversees the ministry, also wanted the counting to stop.

"We have stopped the collection of this information because our minister didn't agree with it," she said, adding: "The CPA doesn't want this to be done."


San Francisco Gate and the AP engaging in hearsay

Presumably, based on past instances where governments (including the US government) felt that public opinion would be adversely affected by high instances of lethality, I suggest that such fudging is at least partially intentional manipulation of statistic if not outright lying.

Now that I have located the train of thought in the context in which it was begun, do you have anything substantive which contradicts either my own research, or the testimonials of former UN peacekeepers that I have personally interviewed to suggest that the US government is somehow immune from the day to day manipulations of fact that is common throughout the world when high levels of negligence at the upper levels of government are percieved as potential causes for high lethality, such as in the case of the tragedy in New Orleans?

[ 13 September 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 01:09 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by simonvallee:
Just like with the policy of not showing images of coffins coming home from Iraq, the objective of a death toll cover-up would be about preventing the death toll to shock people and convince them that it was really a disaster and that it was managed badly. Therefore it would limit questionning about the competency of the Administration by giving the impression that initial reports were exagerated, which would then shatter somewhat the credibility of all reports that spoke of a deficient answer to the crisis.

I can follow your train of logic there, but fail to see how falsification of the death toll arising from the imagery readily dispensed and freely available is of any benefit to the Presidential administration.

It was known in advance throughout America and Canada that NOLA was facing a force 5 hurricane, and although such a catastrophic occurance is impossible to imagine unless having been lived through, the added implication - again beforehand - was that such a storm might be particularly lethal to New Orleans due it's unique topography.

It's one thing to attach blame to the federal administration for any laxity in the handling of natural disasters befalling port cities deemed critical to the welfare of the nation, but quite another to fixate on the death toll - or lack thereof - as evidence of malfeasance by same.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2005 01:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well if you can't figure out how less lethality = less (apparent) negligence, in what appears to be a Chernobyl-like national disaster, exacibated by lack of forsight, bureacratic malaise and bad prioritization of objectives, as was the case in the Soviet Union, when the shocking truth of just how badly governed the USSR was came to light, I suggest you take up knitting rather than politcal commentary for a hobby.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 02:21 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Sorry if you are having short term memory loss. You were responding to a statement where someone spoke about Iraq, I responded by noting the person directly referred as "they" to, by the poster that you responded too, was Paul Bremmer, the former US head of the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq.

Having read the article you posted, I came away no further enlightened as to how you came to attribute that an 'extensive practice [of] not counting bodies in Iraq' should be cast upon Paul Bremmer, other than belief in the hearsay of one of several conflicting accounts by various Iraqi officials. That is your privelege, but I'm inclined to place some merit in this quote as well:
'Abbas, the minister, said he had nothing to do with the order, and suggested the study wouldn't be feasible anyway.

"It would be almost impossible to conduct such a survey, because hospitals cannot distinguish between deaths that resulted from the coalition's efforts in the war, common crime among Iraqis, or deaths resulting from Saddam's brutal regime," he wrote.

quote:
I have friends with ADD, and so I don't mind at all bringing you up to speed on the train of thought expressed in this thread and your previous responses.

I'm honoured to be counted among your friends.

quote:
Presumably, based on past instances where governments (including the US government) felt that public opinion would be adversely affected by high instances of lethality, I suggest that such fudging is at least partially intentional manipulation of statistic if not outright lying.

So what you're suggesting there is that it is in the nature of governments worldwide to massage death toll statistics due hostilities downwards to placate public opinion, and that the current American administration is merely conforming to form in that regard.

quote:
Now that I have located the train of thought in the context in which it was begun, do you have anything substantive which contradicts either my own research, or the testimonials of former UN peacekeepers that I have personally interviewed to suggest that the US government is somehow immune from the day to day manipulations of fact that is common throughout the world when high levels of negligence at the upper levels of government are percieved as potential causes for high lethality, such as in the case of the tragedy in New Orleans?

Notwithstanding that the US is paramount among nations for airing dirty linen in public - particularly when it concerns the 'elite' of society - I'd say that your research has led you to view government leaders with a mean-spirited disdain that must make casting your vote an agonizing event.
I don't mean to dismiss your own research, or personal interviews with UN peacekeepers who served in Bosnia - but insofar as the thread topic is concerned I don't see the relevance, nor what benefits would accrue from dealing with the NOLA hurricane death toll in like manner.

Were you to field research suggesting that the death toll from the recent Tsunami was diminished by the governments of the countries most devastated, it might be more compelling, wouldn't you agree?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2005 02:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, well for someone struggling with ADD I am not suprised that it was difficult for you to make it through the article without losing track of the various threads of thought within in it, and that now you are confused. Let me help!

You might have noted that the article did not entirely rely on the "conflicting statements of various Iraqi officials," but also noted that the AP had been carrying the civilian body counts regularly as part of their reporting.

So it would appear that Dr. Nagham Mohsen's statement conforms to the corrobrative evidence, as far as that goes. One would coalate the following points, and I know this is really going to stretch your abilities at deductive reasoning given the substantial deficit you seem to be struggling with, but here goes:

1) Civilian death toll statistics were being recorded and published by the IMH, as corroborated by the AP.

2) The IMH has not issued any such statistics since Dr. Nagham Mohsen made her statement about being ordered to stop, and no final raport or even an interim report was ever published.

Conclusion: Dr. Nagham Mohsen's statement conforms to the facts, in as much as that statistics were being published, and then later ceased. Therefore we know that her statement is at least partially true, both in that it is corroborarted by past evidence provided by the AP itself, and later confirmed by the fact that the IMH stopped the practice of publishing those statistics.

If this latter is not the case, please find for me a detailed coalation of death statistics for civilians killed in combat related deaths since, the US invastion. Surely such a report would have been published somewhere?

Good luck with that project. Hope you don't forget.

And then of course a discerning observer, (I am assuming one who is looking to do something more than simply reinforce their own ideological predisposition) might ask: Why would the fact that "hospitals cannot distinguish between deaths that resulted from the coalition's efforts in the war, common crime among Iraqis," be prohibative, since such a study would merely be reflecting the changing nature of Iraqi society in crisis?

Furthermore, "deaths resulting from Saddam's brutal regime," should be irrelevant at the time Abbas is making the point that he doesn't even know that such a survey is under way in his own ministry, (when clearly it is as confirmed by the AP) as Saddam is hiding somewhere north of Baghdad. I mean: we know that Abbas is not a Saddam appointee, and though he does seem to have some similar problems to you in terms of congnitive dissonance given that he speaks with such authority about a subject he freely admits he doesn't actually know anything about,* surely he must at least be aware that he is working for Paul Bremmer and not "Saddam's brutal regime."

* Abbas: "I have no knowledge of a civilian war casualty survey even being started by the Ministry of Health, much less stopping it."

[ 13 September 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 03:43 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]Yes, well for someone struggling with ADD I am not suprised that it was difficult for you to make it through the article without losing track of the various threads of thought within in it, and that now you are confused.

Yes, well, enough of that.
As someone struggling with ADD, I cannot be expected to keep up with thread drift forever, so how about we get back to NOLA./Katrina...hmmm?

City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan

excerpts:
IV. DRILLS, EXERCISES TRAINING SESSIONS
The City of New Orleans government will conduct at least one functional or full scale training exercise annually, which will test the response capabilities of all functions of city government, as well as the private organizations, Parish school system and other agencies required to respond to disasters.

------

A. Office of Emergency Preparedness
1. The preparation and dissemination of a general public education program in order to attain high public morale, minimize fear and panic and obtain full individual participation in Emergency Preparedness activities and maximum public support of the emergency management plan.

------
General evacuations that may result from an approaching hurricane will be ordered by the Mayor of the City, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness. The area affected by the warning may range from blocks and portions of neighborhoods, to the entire city.

------

PART 2: EVACUATION
I. GENERAL
The safe evacuation of threatened populations when endangered by a major catastrophic event is one of the principle reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan. The thorough identification of at-risk populations, transportation and sheltering resources, evacuation routes and potential bottlenecks and choke points, and the establishment of the management team that will coordinate not only the evacuation but which will monitor and direct the sheltering and return of affected populations, are the primary tasks of evacuation planning. Due to the geography of New Orleans and the varying scales of potential disasters and their resulting emergency evacuations, different plans are in place for small-scale evacuations and for citywide relocations of whole populations.
Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor. By Executive Order, the chief elected official, the Mayor of the City of New Orleans, has the authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 13 September 2005 07:19 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
everybody,

maybe this could be the last thread where anyone tries to engage this pompous, dissembling thing that calls itself makeieru.

... back to the question: So many people have been scattered to the four winds, ... so much property/landmarks have been destroyed, ... with bodies having floated great distances before being discovered, ... it seems possible that someone in charge of collating the numerous reports of body recoveries could be creative and allow an undercount, ... with nobody catching on for months or years.

What's a realistic number? Supposedly 100,000 people out of 500,000 stayed behind. Roughly 20,000 stayed at the Superdome, 10,000+ at the Convention Centre, that accounts for 31,000. Out of the 70,000 left, it is assumed that the vast majority of them obeyed the Mayor's final evacuation order. (Say, 50-60,000?)

This completely bogus summation accounts for 80-90,000 people. I can't believe that more people didn't get out. I'd estimate that the death-toll is from 1,000 to 5,000 individuals.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 08:28 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now go on now, Mr. Thwap...go on...

[ 13 September 2005: Message edited by: maikeru ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 September 2005 09:48 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, maikeru is right. Even if it is found that in the end not a single person was killed by the hurricane and all the dead actually died of AIDS related complications, that does not make one wit of difference in regard to the total failure of the Federal government and its horses ass lead agencies in responding in a timely manner to the disaster.

maikeru is just being an efficient troll when he takes advantage of this side issue to attempt to derail the discussion away from the actual failures and onto some meaningless argument as to whether there is less responsibility to assign for 1000 deaths or 10,000 deaths.

Of course, Bush's USian "base", and Canadian bashers will certainly fall for this false comparison, but that just means the regular "32%" which couldn't be convinced of the Bush incompetency if they watched as he chocked on a pretzel and accidentally fell on the "big red button".

Personally, the less that died the better, but that doesn't lessen the level of incompetence, responsibility, or need to take corrective actions (including getting those who failed in their duties out of those positions and into a jail cell where they belong.)

Don't let the trolls derail the discussions ... if there is a cover up on the number of deaths, then that is a separate issue, and a crime in and of itself, but nearly meaningless in terms of the issue of the incompetence in responding to this disaster.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 13 September 2005 10:03 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
agreed No Yards.

The suffering of those people trapped without food and water, and those raped and killed at the Superdome, ... packed in with murderous sociopaths, with no level of government providing security, ... I'm still curious about the levees though: Reports say that they broke after the worst of the storm had passed. Somewhere, I thought I read that by the time it had hit New Orleans, it quickly went from a Class 4 [already down from Class 5] to a Class 3 hurricane. So the floodwaters could have been maintained by the existing levees, but for the fact that their maintenance was ignored for years by bush II. (Anybody able to confirm or deny that the levee walls had been high enough, but not strong enough?)

Either way, bush II loses. Either all levels of government should have anticipated the flooding due to the strength of the hurricane, and had their forces in place to deal with it, or bush II himself is responsible for gutting the maintenance spending that would have prevented the flooding.

This is a an open-and-shut case so far as government incompetence goes. [sarcasm]Obviously, it's up to the private sector to step in and provide public infrastructure projects like this, in order to proactively prevent its own interests from being destroyed. Rational expectations theory would lead one to believe that the private sector should have known that a tax-cutting, hog-wild military-spending gov't would not have enough money for projects such as we're talking about here.[/sarcasm]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 11:14 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
if there is a cover up on the number of deaths, then that is a separate issue, and a crime in and of itself, but nearly meaningless in terms of the issue of the incompetence in responding to this disaster.

Took a while to get across the goal line there no yards...what with prancing about for the cheerleaders an' all... but at least you remembered to carry the ball.

Apparently, many here want to believe that the Bush administration would deliberately falsify the death toll from devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina - although none has shown of what possible benefit this could be (nor how the Bush administration would hope to accomplish same in a solid Demo state).

While cueball has at least tried to dredge up evidence of past efforts by the Bush administration to mislead the public by purportedly squelching death tolls from the Iraqi invasion, that line of reasoning itself relies on condemnation of all and any wartime fatality figures quoted by any government - or even the unimpeachable UN.

When it comes down to natural disaster - and relief efforts - other considerations often come into play, as was the case some 9 months ago:Tsunami death toll rises to 225,000

I find it repugnant that the tragedy of NOLA has become simply another excuse for Canadians to echo nonsense trashing the President of the United States.
If criticism were confined to where the current Presidential administration there failed to provide adequate and timely federal reaction, fine.
If, in apportioning responsibilty for the deaths of any NOLA residents, some blame accrued to the feds as well, so be it.
But to speculate malfeasance by President Bush predicated entirely upon suspicion of absurd motive is a sign of corrupted thinking.

The same is true of personal attacks on keyboard comrades voicing opinions contrary to ones' own.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 13 September 2005 12:47 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I find it repugnant that the tragedy of NOLA has become simply another excuse for Canadians to echo nonsense trashing the President of the United States.
If criticism were confined to where the current Presidential administration there failed to provide adequate and timely federal reaction, fine.
If, in apportioning responsibilty for the deaths of any NOLA residents, some blame accrued to the feds as well, so be it.
But to speculate malfeasance by President Bush predicated entirely upon suspicion of absurd motive is a sign of corrupted thinking.

The same is true of personal attacks on keyboard comrades voicing opinions contrary to ones' own.


I just want to plead with honest babblers out there: Please do not try to engage this troll on this, or any other subject.

[makeiru]whine, whine, prevaricate, whine: "You're afraid of genuine debate, whine, lie s'more, whine [/makeriu]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 September 2005 01:40 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with thwap, don't feed the troll. The point is not *why* they are falsifying the count (not like it's a serious question as to why anyone who feels responsible for huge amounts of deaths would try to minimize the number.) The point is that the Feds were criminally negligent in their duties. If that negligence lead to 10,000 deaths, or one minor injury, it doesn't matter. If the result was from criminal negligence then they are guilty of a crime.

Numbers are a tactical issue for the response teams, responsibility and negligence is an issue separate from the actual numbers.

If Bush got drunk and backed his car over a person and broke their arm, he would be guilty of some form of criminal negligence, which would demand that his lack of care in his responsibilities result in his removal, forced or voluntary, from his office (same goes for the rest of those giggling murders in his circle of crime.) If the facts end up that he backed up over 10,000 people, that's a matter of degree ... we don't just say "oh, no biggie. It's not like he backed over 10,000 people."


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2005 01:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maikeru:

Yes, well, enough of that.
As someone struggling with ADD, I cannot be expected to keep up with thread drift forever, so how about we get back to NOLA./Katrina...hmmm?

Loser.

And as for the evacuation plans as outlined in the document you have porvided, excerpting segments of that document does little to obviate the resonsbilities of the State and Federal adminstration in that regard (ADD again, is it impossible for you to through a whole document without forgetting key parts?) as that document clearly states that evacuation plan comes into effect, once a state of emergency is declared in Louisianna, something which Mayor Nagin is not empowered to do.

Or are you suggesting, as a good coservative, that government officials should be allowed to willy-nilly comandeer private and public properties whenever, and however they choose, simply because they feel like it?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 05:57 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
And as for the evacuation plans as outlined in the document you have porvided, ... ... as that document clearly states that evacuation plan comes into effect, once a state of emergency is declared in Louisianna, something which Mayor Nagin is not empowered to do.

Perhaps you can excerpt and point to that restriction - in similar manner as I have done below - rather than simply refer to it.

City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan

excerpts:
General evacuations that may result from an approaching hurricane will be ordered by the Mayor of the City, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness. The area affected by the warning may range from blocks and portions of neighborhoods, to the entire city.

Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor. By Executive Order, the chief elected official, the Mayor of the City of New Orleans, has the authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.

III. EVACUATION ORDER
A. Authority

As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency Preparedness
The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute. The Governor is granted the power to direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from a stricken or threatened area within the State, if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery. The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.

B. Issuance of Evacuation Orders
The person responsible for recognition of hurricane related preparation needs and for the issuance of an evacuation order is the Mayor of the City of New Orleans.
Concerning preparation needs and the issuance of an evacuation order, The Office of Emergency Preparedness should keep the Mayor advised.

quote:
Or are you suggesting, as a good coservative, that government officials should be allowed to willy-nilly comandeer private and public properties whenever, and however they choose, simply because they feel like it?

Thank you for the flattery - I am a good conservative - however I should point out to you that the willy-nilly commandeering of private property whenever, wherever and however chosen by government officials is an essential element of socialism.

Are you suggesting that Issuance of evacuation orders for NOLA in the face of an imminent Cat5 hurricane was not a deeply considered action based upon prior planning - and only then initiated when deemed essential for the preservation of human life?

[ 13 September 2005: Message edited by: maikeru ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 September 2005 08:07 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And what part did the Mayor and/or Governor not follow? They ordered the evacuation, they tried to follow all the guidlines, and did so where ever possible.

At worst, someone might be able to point to the fact that public transportation out of the city was lacking, but according to the Mayor, that was because there were not enough drivers to drive the buses ... is that a good excuse? Maybe, maybe not, but there can be no question that it's a hell of a lot better than any excuse the Feds gave for their failing. At least the Mayor didn't blame it on the media misinforming him, or that he was off to San Diago for a photo-op and to pick up a guitar.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 13 September 2005 09:11 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No Yards!!!

You should know better than that! Don't feed the troll!!

Episode 4: In "The Making of Makeriu--The making of a Troll"


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 September 2005 09:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read where Amtrak-Canadian National-Illinois Central Railroad almost hatched a contingency plan of escape for the victims of nature and conservative economics. I'll bet the poor are almost greatful for it, too.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 11:25 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
And what part did the Mayor and/or Governor not follow? They ordered the evacuation, they tried to follow all the guidlines, and did so where ever possible.

I'm not arguing whether the NOLA civic or state authorities did or did not follow all the established guidelines. Clearly, the force of the hurricane was of such magnitude that the Mayor, who was at the front lines, speculated that the death toll would be many thousands.

I note:
IV. DRILLS, EXERCISES TRAINING SESSIONS
The City of New Orleans government will conduct at least one functional or full scale training exercise annually, which will test the response capabilities of all functions of city government, as well as the private organizations, Parish school system and other agencies required to respond to disasters.

Such an initiative is quite ambitious, and is doubtless much easier to recommend than to undertake.
Furthermore, I note:
A. Evacuation Time Requirements
Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours.

That reference suggests a state of preparedness sufficient to anticipate winds from 111-130 MPH, whereas the Catagory 5 storm which hit NOLA had winds 155+ MPH - (about 280 kmh - the speed of a Japanese bullet train).
Given that the civic authorities began evacuation 24 hours before the hurricane hit, rather than the 'maximum 72 hours' deemed doable - and that the hurricane was of much greater severity than anticipated by guidelines, I come away with the impression that more actually went right than wrong at the civic level.

At the state level, New Orleans was not the only area hit by the storm, and resources for emergency measures and/or evacuations elsewhere must be additionally hard-strained.

At the federal level, given that New Orleans is the largest faction of the Port of South Louisiana, the latter being the largest and busiest shipping port in the western hemisphere and the 4th busiest in the world., it deserved more than usual attention to ensure against catastrophic natural events.
Whatever blame accrues to tardy federal response will ultimately be borne by the Bush administration - moreso than might have been the case with prior administrations due the melding of FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security.

Given the many-layered nature of government and bureaucracy, the diverse agencies involved in disaster prevention and relief, and the added vulnerability of NOLA to hurricane,

I come away with a sense that NOLA was a disaster waiting to happen in the event of a Hurricane Katrina,

and that to fix on President Bush as directly responsible for same - or worse - as also sponsoring malfeasance through falsification of the death toll, is evidence of corrupted thought.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 13 September 2005 11:43 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thwap:
No Yards!!!

Don't feed the twoll or I'll be vewy vewy angwy with you!!



From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 September 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A. Evacuation Time Requirements
Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours.

followed by the details, which you convienently omit:

This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time). Clearance time does not refer to the time a single vehicle spends traveling on the road network. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.

> Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less

> Special Needs Evacuation Order: 8-12 hours after Precautionary Evacuation Notice issued

> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less

What's your game here? Do you have evidence that the state and/or mayor failed to take reasonable measures to live up to their duties and responsibilities, or not? So far all you;ve done is post pieces of a document that seem to place blame, but on closer reading are just attempts at misdirection.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 14 September 2005 01:18 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
A. Evacuation Time Requirements
followed by the details, which you convienently omit:

My purpose in posting that paragraph was to give a point of reference to the level of emergency measures put in place; ie 'Catagory 3 storm / 72 hour evacuation schedule'.
The Cat 5 storm experienced, although it may never occur there again, will likely become the standard around which emergency measures are built, alongside a more realistic expectation of 24 hours notice of evacuation - not due that being sufficient, but in light of the reluctance to order evacuation unnecessarily, given that a hurricane might veer off elsewhere, or subside.

Just how much of that manual do you think people want to read here, and if so why they wouldn't simply follow the link as you did?

quote:
What's your game here? Do you have evidence that the state and/or mayor failed to take reasonable measures to live up to their duties and responsibilities, or not? So far all you;ve done is post pieces of a document that seem to place blame, but on closer reading are just attempts at misdirection.

The only game I'm playing in this thread is exchanging dumb ass photo insults with a dumb ass.
Otherwise, I'm bringing to the thread information relevant to the topic of where responsibilities lay insofar as civic, state and federal governments are concerned, and that evolved out of other points and opinions.

My initial question was " What, exactly, could possibly be gained - and by whom - from falsifying the death toll from Hurricane Katrina ? "
As the 'blame' for unnecessary deaths clearly is across the broad spectrum of governmental layers - none of whom actually caused the hurricane, but all of whom were responsible for emergency prevention and relief - I posit and argue the view that there is no good reason the Bush administration should be singled out and accused of falsifying the death toll downwards for political gain.

I haven't laid off blame on anyone, Mayor Nagin included, nor attacked his estimate of fatalities or condemned him for what he might have done better.
Nor have I attached any blame to any of the people of New orleans themselves for whatever miscreant activity might have occurred, of for what they might done better themselves both before and during the disaster.
NOLA was, essentially, a disaster area awaiting a hurricane in an area prone to same.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 14 September 2005 01:38 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
makeriu,

sik meye kak


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 14 September 2005 02:58 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thwap:
makeriu,
sik meye kak

sure thing little man...just put down that silly needle and haul out what's left of your manhood...


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 14 September 2005 11:34 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uh, yeah. a giant spider. (?)

anyhooo, for all the sane people out there ...

I thought this might be apropos to this thread. (Got it from elsewhere on babble.)


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 14 September 2005 08:08 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thwap:
I thought this might be apropos to this thread.

excerpted from link:
In other words, FEMA and then [Louisiana Governor Katherine] Blanco outsourced the body count from Hurricane Katrina -- which many believe the worst natural disaster in U.S. history -- to a firm whose parent company is known for its "experience" at hiding and dumping bodies.

This is the same Democratic governor who authorized National guard troops to 'shoot to kill' hoodlums in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina (an earlier RAW STORY exposé )

Of course, as this angle unfolds - a Democratic governor, possibly with bodies to hide - the burning 'cover-up' question shifts perspective.
Let's return to earlier comments in this thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two :
It's true they'll have a hard time covering up the body count, but I know for a fact they'll try. If they can't cover it up, they'll confuse it or try to claim something other than the hurricane killed them. The one thing I know about these guys is they believe they can spin anything...

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 14 September 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"sigh"

That's right shit-head. You caught me linking to a site connecting a DEMOCRAT to something.

gasp!

Because all along I've insisted that G.W. Bush is responsible for creating the hurricane in the first place. And it all stems from that.

If you'd grow the fuck up, you'd recognize that nobody here thinks Nagin, Blanco, Democrats in general, yadda-yadda-yadda, are blameless.

We just have a hard time figuring out your hard-on for getting bush II off scot-free.

JFC!!! Why am i bothering with this? this thread is yours makeiru, have a blast.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 14 September 2005 09:43 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thwap:
...nobody here thinks Nagin, Blanco, Democrats in general, yadda-yadda-yadda, are blameless.
We just have a hard time figuring out your hard-on for getting bush II off scot-free.


We have an equally hard time figuring out why you have a hard-on for maikeru. You've been on his case here from the get-go, and for no good reason. Furthermore, you resort to foul-mouthed comments which we find vulgar and childish.
If maikeru chooses to question absurd comments about President Bush that's his perogative in a discussion forum, and he figures your seconding everyone else's opinion to your own is a lot like this response.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 September 2005 06:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry I have been busy elsewhere, but I am available for remidial support again:

quote:
Organization and Assignment of Responsibilities
The organization and assignment of primary and secondary responsibilities are detailed in the State Emergency Operations Plan (EOP). Listed below are the key participants and their roles in the event of a catastrophic hurricane:
1. Governor:

a. Proclaim a State of Emergency.

b. Issue supplementary declarations and orders, as the situation requires.

c. Authorize and direct the use of State government personnel and other resources to deal with the emergency.

d. Authorize and direct the authorities of non-risk parishes to coordinate the opening and operation of shelters with DSS in conjunction with ARC, and to lend all possible assistance to the evacuation and shelter effort.

e. Request Federal government assistance as needed.

2. Adjutant General/Director, Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness (LOEP):

a. Serve as the Governor's executive agent and lead agency for the management of emergency and disaster operations.

b. Coordinate state and local operations.

c. Prepare and coordinate requests for assistance to other states and the Federal government.

d. Keep the Governor and the Legislature informed of progress and problems in dealing with the emergency or disaster.


STATE OF LOUISIANA EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN

This is the comprehnsive evaucation plan: notice that the Governor, or one would presume a higher authority must declare a "state of emergancy" in order for the mayor to take up superlative powers to enact the other aspects of the evacuation plan.

This kind of legal safguard, wherein, there must be a clearly defined "state of emergancy" before the mayor is allowed to take on powers that would allow him/her to, for instance, sieze someones car simply because they like the colour of it, is exactly what is meant by the phrase: "Check and balances," which is a phrase of some currency among US constitutional experts.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
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posted 15 September 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maikeru:

We have an equally hard time figuring out why you have a hard-on for maikeru. You've been on his case here from the get-go, and for no good reason. Furthermore, you resort to foul-mouthed comments which we find vulgar and childish.
If maikeru chooses to question absurd comments about President Bush that's his perogative in a discussion forum, and he figures your seconding everyone else's opinion to your own is a lot like this response.


Who is 'we'?

Why are you refering to yourself in the third person?


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 15 September 2005 07:54 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Feds did it better in 1906

The author is an expert and author of a book on the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. I just saw him interviewed on CNN. He said more Federal bureaucracy today is what differentiated the lame Bush administration response to the hurricane. Here is his take on how quickly the Feds responded in 1906. The dissimilarities are striking.

quote:
A stentorian Army general named Frederick Funston realized he was on his own -- his superior was at a daughter's wedding in Chicago -- and sent orders to the Presidio military base.

Within two hours scores of soldiers were marching into the city, platoons wheeling around the fires, each man with bayonet fixed and 20 rounds of ball issued; they presented themselves to Mayor Eugene Schmitz by 7:45 a.m. -- just 153 minutes after the quake.

The mayor, a former violinist who had previously been little more than a puppet of the city's political machine, ordered the troops to shoot any looters, demanded military dynamite and sappers to clear firebreaks, and requisitioned boats to the Oakland telegraph office to put the word out over the wires: "San Francisco is in ruins," the cables read. "Our city needs help."

The first relief train, from Los Angeles, steamed into the Berkeley marshalling yards by 11 o'clock that night. The Navy and the Revenue Cutter Service, like the Army not waiting for orders from back East, ran fire boats and rescue ferries. Powder companies worked to make explosives to blast wreckage.

Washington learned of the calamity in the raw and unscripted form of Morse Code messages, with no need for the interpolations of anchormen or pollsters. Congress met in emergency session and quickly passed legislation to pay all imaginable bills.

By 4 a.m. on April 19, William Taft, President Theodore Roosevelt's secretary of war, ordered rescue trains to begin pounding toward the Rockies; one, assembled in Virginia, was the longest hospital train ever assembled.

But I delight in the lesser gestures, like that of the largely forgotten San Francisco postal official, Arthur Fisk, who issued an order on his personal recognizance: no letter posted without a stamp, and that clearly comes from the hand of a victim, will go undelivered for want of fee.

And thus did hundreds of the homeless of San Francisco let their loved ones know of their condition -- a courtesy of a time in which efficiency, resourcefulness and simple human kindness were prized in a manner we'd do well to emulate today.


I am still amused at those who are doing everythign in their power to absolve Bush and the Feds. I honestly wonder where these people came from, on whose orders or direction are they carrying this campaign out and why they are doing it. It is beyond dispute in the US that the Feds by tradition and law, are the only ones that have the wherewithal and legal authority to remediate a disaster of this magnitude. They were warned well in advance of Katrina. They watched.

And once they moved from square one, here's how they reacted:

Leadership vacuum stymied aid offers

quote:
As violence, death and misery gripped New Orleans and the surrounding parishes in the days after Hurricane Katrina, a leadership vacuum, bureaucratic red tape and a defensive culture paralyzed volunteers' attempts to help.

Doctors eager to help sick and injured evacuees were handed mops by federal officials who expressed concern about legal liability. Even as violence and looting slowed rescues, police from other states were turned back while officials squabbled over who should take charge of restoring the peace.

Warehouses in New Orleans burned while firefighters were diverted to Atlanta for Federal Emergency Management Agency training sessions on community relations and sexual harassment. Water trucks languished for days at FEMA's staging area because the drivers lacked the proper paperwork.

Consider the stories of these frustrated volunteers:

# Dr. Bong Mui and his staff, evacuated with 300 patients after three hellish days at Chalmette Medical Center, arrived at the New Orleans airport, and were amazed to see hundreds of sick people. They offered to help. But, the doctor told CNN, FEMA officials said they were worried about legal liability. "They told us that, you know, you could help us by mopping the floor." And so they mopped, while people died around them. "I started crying," he recalled. "We felt like we could help, and were not allowed to do anything." (Watch the video of hundreds languishing sick at the airport -- 4:16)

# Steve Simpson, sheriff of Loudoun County, Virginia, sent 22 deputies equipped with food and water to last seven days. Their 14-car caravan, including four all-terrain vehicles, was on the road just three hours when they were told to turn back. The reason, Simpson told CNN: A Louisiana state police official told them not to come. " I said, "What if we just show up?' He says, 'You probably won't get in.' " Simpson said he later learned a dispute over whether state or federal authorities would command the law enforcement effort was being ironed out that night. But no one ever got back to him with the all-clear.

# FEMA halted tractor trailers hauling water to a supply staging area in Alexandria, Louisiana, The New York Times quoted William Vines, former mayor of Fort Smith, Arkansas, as saying. "FEMA would not let the trucks unload," he told the newspaper. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road" because, he said, they did not have a "tasker number." He added, "What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork and it's ridiculous."

# Firefighters who answered a nationwide call for help were sent to Atlanta for FEMA training sessions on community relations and sexual harassment. "On the news every night you hear 'How come everybody forgot us?' " Pennsylvania firefighter Joseph Manning told The Dallas Morning News. "We didn't forget. We're stuck in Atlanta drinking beer."

The government's response to Hurricane Katrina has been sharply criticized. Elected officials -- chiefly President Bush, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin -- have acknowledged flaws in the response.


Note the acronym that repeats like a jackhammer - FEMA, FEMA, FEMA. The Federal government.

Meanwhile, a weaker Hurricane Ophelia hits the Carolina coast. What is the Federal response in NC?

FEMA says it's ready to deal with Ophelia aftermath

quote:
FEMA officials say they have 250 staff members on the ground in the state, ready to work with local officials.

So far, Ophelia’s damage has not been significant enough for FEMA assistance, say North Carolina’s local and county officials.

FEMA says it also has several hundred trailers and water and ice, along with dozens of trailers of ready-to-eat meals, positioned in Georgia, Maryland, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia. Those items can be moved into North Carolina for quick assistance, if needed.

Among the government agencies in place for Ophelia: U.S. Department of Agriculture is preparing to deal with possible food shortages.

U.S. Department of Defense is working with state officials for possible use of troops. About 250 National Guard members have been activated by North Carolina Gov. Mike Easley and are positioned across the state.

U.S. Department of Energy is prepared to help utility companies deal with power outages.

FEMA has urban search-and-rescue teams and various other experts ready to help.

U.S. Coast Guard crews are prepared for search-and-rescue missions, pollution response, or to help with nautical navigation after the storm.

U.S. Department of the Interior agencies, including the National Park Service and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, have closed parks and wildlife refuges to help in the evacuation of people along the Outer Banks and in other storm-threatened areas.


In fact, a woman in North Carolina interviewed by CNN said she sees troops and FEMA personnel knee deep around her community and opined that it is clear that the Federal government didn't want to be caught flat footed this time.

So they pre-positioned all of these people and resources prior to Ophelia, a weak hurricane, hitting the outer banks of NC (a major tourist area and home to resort communities BTW).

The disaster of New Orleans was aided, abetted and aggravated by the lack of Federal planning, foresight and response. Ophelia's response proves what the Feds could have been done. Bush even (sort of) took the blame. The Federal government clearly bears they overwhelming blame for what went wrong and the reporting proves it.

Case

Fucking

Closed.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
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posted 15 September 2005 08:50 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yukoner:
Why are you refering to yourself in the third person?
That is the royal 'we' as in 'we are not amused.'

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
person
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posted 15 September 2005 09:00 PM      Profile for person     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yukoner:


Who is 'we'?

Why are you refering to yourself in the third person?


yeah... that's pretty weird.


From: www.resist.ca | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 15 September 2005 09:17 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
And as for the evacuation plans as outlined in the document you have porvided[City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan ], excerpting segments of that document does little to obviate the resonsbilities of the State and Federal adminstration in that regard (ADD again, is it impossible for you to through a whole document without forgetting key parts?) as that document clearly states that evacuation plan comes into effect, once a state of emergency is declared in Louisianna, something which Mayor Nagin is not empowered to do.

Just so we're on the same page here, the above bolded portion is the point of contention .

quote:
STATE OF LOUISIANA EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN

This is the comprehnsive evaucation plan: notice that the Governor, or one would presume a higher authority must declare a "state of emergancy" in order for the mayor to take up superlative powers to enact the other aspects of the evacuation plan.


This is not the document I provided a link to, and hence not the specific reference you alluded to in the above paragraph.

Furthermore, it draws no correlation between the declaration of a state of emergency and an order to evacuate.
The following paragraph which I earlier posted indicates that when it comes to such an order the Mayor of New Orleans has the authority to order evacuation, even in the absense of same by the governor of the state.

' The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute... ... The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 15 September 2005 09:24 PM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yukoner:
Who is 'we'?
Why are you refering to yourself in the third person?

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From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 15 September 2005 10:04 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
maikeru, like kubrickisgod before him, is just peddling the same Bush-apologist bullshit. Their arguments have been refuted time and time again. I'm sure we all have much better uses for our time.

You want to make the world a better place?

Starve a troll today.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 15 September 2005 10:30 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maikeru:

We have an equally hard time figuring out why you have a hard-on for maikeru. You've been on his case here from the get-go, and for no good reason. Furthermore, you resort to foul-mouthed comments which we find vulgar and childish.
If maikeru chooses to question absurd comments about President Bush that's his perogative in a discussion forum, and he figures your seconding everyone else's opinion to your own is a lot like this response.

So which of your sock-puppet IDs did you think you were logged in under when you posted this, maikeru?

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 16 September 2005 12:58 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:
Leadership vacuum stymied aid offers

the above link goes on to say...

'Some take responsibility

"To the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said earlier this week. He is expected to unveil the largest disaster relief program in history in an address to the nation Thursday night from New Orleans.

"There were failures at every level of government -- state, federal and local," Blanco told Louisiana legislators Wednesday evening in Baton Rouge. "At the state level, we must take a careful look at what went wrong and make sure it never happens again," she said. "The buck stops here, and as your governor, I take full responsibility."

Nagin, once angry and embattled, was also conciliatory.

"I think now we are out of nuclear crisis mode, it seems as though myself, the governor and president have done some retrospection as far as what we could have done better, and ultimately we're all accountable at the level of local state and federal government," he told CNN. "And that's what leadership is all about. We should take responsibility and we should try and do better."


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 September 2005 12:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maikeru:


' The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute... ... The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.


Which was done, as per the larger plan, the documents for which I provided, the mayor calls for a voluntary evacuation, and then later a mandatory one, in a two phased evacuation plan, which is quite clearly outlined. I hope you enjoy reading the document I provided through its entirety. I know its difficult but you can only try your best!


That document outlines the steps to be taken for a mandatory evacuation. That evacuation plan includes such steps as commandeering Public and private vehicles. Ergo the Mayor can not proceed without the declared state of emergency to legalize the temporary siezure of vehicle for part two (the mandatory) evacuation plan.

Or are you still holding to the position that the Mayor and his cronies should willy-nilly overide property rights because they feel like it?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 16 September 2005 01:17 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
So which of your sock-puppet IDs did you think you were logged in under when you posted this, maikeru?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 16 September 2005 01:21 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice to know I hit a nerve.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
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posted 16 September 2005 01:30 AM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ohhhhh STFU......nice damage control. A real right winger would have some up with something better than that when they got caught with their pants down.

Ta ta. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 16 September 2005 01:51 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]Which was done, as per the larger plan, the documents for which I provided, the mayor calls for a voluntary evacuation, and then later a mandatory one, in a two phased evacuation plan, which is quite clearly outlined. I hope you enjoy reading the document I provided through its entirety. I know its difficult but you can only try your best!

I see. Having not found what you claimed was in the link I provided, you want to expand the search area to include other documents. So be it.

quote:
That document [State of Louisiana Emergency operations Plan - Supplement 1A] outlines the steps to be taken for a mandatory evacuation. That evacuation plan includes such steps as commandeering Public and private vehicles.

How about excerpting it ?

quote:
Ergo the Mayor can not proceed without the declared state of emergency to legalize the temporary siezure of vehicle for part two (the mandatory) evacuation plan.

There is no reference to sequestering vehicles in your link.

quote:
Or are you still holding to the position that the Mayor and his cronies should willy-nilly overide property rights because they feel like it?

I'll state my own positions, thanks, and you may state yours. Your interpretation of mine are both incorrect and absurd.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
maikeru
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posted 16 September 2005 01:53 AM      Profile for maikeru        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Nice to know I hit a nerve.

I knew you'ld enjoy that one lard

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Nenonen
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posted 09 December 2005 01:25 PM      Profile for Michael Nenonen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a rather bleak follow-up to this thread. Democracy Now is reporting that over 6,000 people are either missing or dead in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, a number far higher than the official count of 1,300.


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/09/1444207

[ 09 December 2005: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged

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