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Author Topic: this is marc emery
island empire
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posted 13 August 2005 12:55 PM      Profile for island empire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
from the nytimes:

"Mr. Emery describes himself as "a responsible libertarian, not a hedonist," who extols the virtues of capitalism, low taxes, small government and the right of citizens to bear arms.

He said he grew up a social democrat, influenced by his father, who was active in trade union work. But he said his life changed in 1979 when he began reading the works of Ayn Rand, who championed individual freedom and capitalism.

"The right to be free, the right to own the fruits of your mind and effort now all made sense," he recalled. Only a few months after discovering Rand, his girlfriend at the time offered him a joint and he smoked marijuana for the first time.

IT was an epiphany," he said. "I had a sixth sense added to my five senses. The silence sounded different, smells were more nuanced and the brightness of the moon made it look bigger and more substantial in the sky."

The combination of Rand's philosophy and the marijuana set him on a course of advocacy in which, he said, "I decided to dedicate my whole life to repudiate the state."

or from the wikipedia:

"He favours the abolition of public education in favour of private tutorship, and is against spending tax revenues on health-care for persons over the age of seventy. On the latter subject, Emery has said, "We spend far too much of our taxpayers' money on a rapidly growing population of old people. We're spending lots of money keeping _ many many millions of old people _ alive when it would be much more honourable to let them die in a dignified way".[3] He claims that those over seventy should be responsible for their own health care, and should not rely on the state for funding. Emery has also noted that many senior citizens are being kept alive against their wishes, citing his own father as an example."

the sovereignty issue sucks, but this guy sucks almost as much.

edited for links.

[ 13 August 2005: Message edited by: dazzle me ]


From: montréal, canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 13 August 2005 01:09 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I listened to a bit of Emery talking on As It Happens the other week (though I frequently had to change stations, as I was driving at the time and kept thumping the wheel in vexation and rage).

Early on, he talked about how he'd found himself with the ability to make money, but "took a very Buddhist attitude" toward it -- i.e., gave much of it away to support various causes, people who needed help, etc. All very well in itself, but less than convincing in his case, because...

... by the end of the interview, he was talking about how the world-wide "war on cannibis" (which he has, on other occasions and possibly on this one, referred to as "cultural genocide") had (to paraphrase) resulted in "hundreds of millions of oppressed people, of whom I am the acknowledged leader. And if my sufferings can end up helping them, so much the better."

He's messianic, in other words.

I think that marijuana should be legal, and that the USian extension of its legal system to the entire world should be resisted fiercely. But Marc Emery is the worst possible poster-boy for both causes.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 13 August 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On the other hand, he might be perfect, idiot though he is. Those favouring legalisation probably won't care that he's a megalomaniac nut, and the mostly right-wing population that strongly opposes it might find themselves curiously in sync with Marc and his philosophies (to use the term loosely, of course). He's a successful capitalist who wants to let everyone fend for themselves. The red staters might end up liking the guy in spite of themselves, and start wondering what the big deal is if he likes to get loopy on pot instead of beer. We can only hope.
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 13 August 2005 05:03 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe Marc Emery and all the right wing "red staters" should finish themselves off!!!!
From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 13 August 2005 10:55 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah, Albion1?

Whatever exactly you mean by that, it strikes me as pure idiocy. These violent fantasies are distinctly tedious, besides.

quote:
On the other hand, he might be perfect, idiot though he is. Those favouring legalisation probably won't care that he's a megalomaniac nut, and the mostly right-wing population that strongly opposes it might find themselves curiously in sync with Marc and his philosophies (to use the term loosely, of course). He's a successful capitalist who wants to let everyone fend for themselves. The red staters might end up liking the guy in spite of themselves, and start wondering what the big deal is if he likes to get loopy on pot instead of beer. We can only hope.

A good point. I hadn't thought of it like that. Though it was support in Canada, not red states, I was thinking about. In Canada, Emery sounds like he's from Mars. I can imagine a lot of Canadians thinking, "the Americans want him, they can have him. Our legal system protect him? Piss on that from a great height."

Of course, not even a great and widespread outcry against his extradition might matter much, assuming it's true that our legal system has been amended to make USian extradition vastly easier.

[ 13 August 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dana Larsen
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posted 14 August 2005 05:34 AM      Profile for Dana Larsen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
he was talking about how the world-wide "war on cannibis" (which he has, on other occasions and possibly on this one, referred to as "cultural genocide") had (to paraphrase) resulted in "hundreds of millions of oppressed people, of whom I am the acknowledged leader. And if my sufferings can end up helping them, so much the better."

So because he is willing to suffer to end the war on pot he is a bad spokesman?

The war on marijuana does result in hundreds of millions oppressed people around the world. Are you saying this is an inaccurate statement? I'd say someone who was jailed for using can be considered to be "oppressed."

The marijuana culture is banned in most nations on earth. Our books and magazines are banned, our movies are censored, our religions are declared invalid, the implements of our culture (pipes, bongs) are banned. Isn't this "cultural genocide" when you try to destroy a cultural group?

All the prohibitions I listed also used to apply to the gay culture, but now gay culture is not illegal in most of the western world, while the marijuana culture is viciously persecuted.

Marc Emery has done more to liberate Canadian marijuana culture and end our nation's drug war than pretty much anyone else. Certainly he has paida high price with raids seizing hundreds of thousands of dollars in bongs and pipes, spending many nights in jail, including 2 months in prison for passing a single joint in Saskatchewan.

If more people stood up for individual liberty, tolerance and peace like Marc Emery does, then Canada would be a much better place.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 14 August 2005 07:30 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, it's fairly insulting to cultures that are actually facing/have faced cultural genocide to refer to the "war on drugs" as a "cultural genocide" for roughly the same reasons the PETA campaign is insulting to cultures who have experienced slavery.

Comparing "cannabis culture" to "gay culture" is equally insulting. Drug use doesn't speak to identity in the same way that sexuality does.

You can denounce the "war on drugs" as wrong without insulting actual human rights struggles, just as one can advocate for animals without insulting human rights struggles.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 14 August 2005 08:00 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kurichina:
Comparing "cannabis culture" to "gay culture" is equally insulting. Drug use doesn't speak to identity in the same way that sexuality does.

Word. That's like talking about 'golf culture' as if it constituted more than what some people like to do in their spare time.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 14 August 2005 08:48 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course, many would insist that there is no such thing as "gay culture" (although I am not one of those people)...
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
flower
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posted 14 August 2005 09:08 AM      Profile for flower     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This guy sounds like a neo-con rightwing nut job.

"Mr. Emery describes himself as "a responsible libertarian, not a hedonist," who extols the virtues of capitalism, low taxes, small government and the right of citizens to bear arms."
-
"He favours the abolition of public education in favour of private tutorship, and is against spending tax revenues on health-care for persons over the age of seventy. On the latter subject, Emery has said, "We spend far too much of our taxpayers' money on a rapidly growing population of old people. We're spending lots of money keeping _ many many millions of old people _ alive when it would be much more honourable to let them die in a dignified way".[3] He claims that those over seventy should be responsible for their own health care, and should not rely on the state for funding."


From: victoria,b.c. | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 14 August 2005 09:41 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is your brain on drugs:

"Mr. Emery describes himself as "a responsible libertarian, not a hedonist," who extols the virtues of capitalism, low taxes, small government and the right of citizens to bear arms."
-
"He favours the abolition of public education in favour of private tutorship, and is against spending tax revenues on health-care for persons over the age of seventy. On the latter subject, Emery has said, "We spend far too much of our taxpayers' money on a rapidly growing population of old people. We're spending lots of money keeping _ many many millions of old people _ alive when it would be much more honourable to let them die in a dignified way".[3] He claims that those over seventy should be responsible for their own health care, and should not rely on the state for funding."


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
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posted 14 August 2005 09:49 AM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Comparing "cannabis culture" to "gay culture" is equally insulting. Drug use doesn't speak to identity in the same way that sexuality does.
I disagree. Whether I'm oppressed for smoking pot or having sex with the same gender, it's still oppression. And common oppression is what creates these kinds of cultures. If there was no homophobia, there would probably be no gay culture. If people didn't have so many hangups about pot, there would probably be no pot culture either.

Of course, I think Emery's politics suck, but do leftists check political credentials before they agree to support someone being extradited from Canada because of US political pressure?

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: spatrioter ]


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 14 August 2005 10:08 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My. He is an ignorant clown, isn't he.

But I agree with spatrioter. We have to save the jerk.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 14 August 2005 10:34 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spatrioter:
I disagree. Whether I'm oppressed for smoking pot or having sex with the same gender, it's still oppression.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just as we don't have to make animals into citizens into order to advocate for them, we don't have to elevate Emery's drug use or business activities to the same level as immutable human characteristics in order to advocate for him. Of course we should do what we can to protect him and others from foreign laws and from less-than-justified laws at home. But doing so doesn't require such hyperbole, IMHO.

edited to insert missing word

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: kurichina ]


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
flower
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posted 14 August 2005 10:41 AM      Profile for flower     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know if I want to save this jerk. I'm inching up on that 70 year old mark and really want to know that I will have medicare when I need it. I really believe my great grandchildren deserve a free public education and know that my grandchildren could use reliable day care for them. I don't like the fact that the US can come up here and take our citizens but I think I could turn a blind eye to this guy. Horrors, I am a hypocrit.
From: victoria,b.c. | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 14 August 2005 10:42 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Marijuana has played an important part in the development of bohemian subcultures, as early as Les Fleurs du mal and certainly since the beatniks and especially the hippies. No, it is not on the level of racism or homophobia, but there was a backlash against those who challenged "the establishment" and its values.

Emery doesn't of course, he takes them to a higher plane. We must make sure he can stay, here, and that he lives to seventy...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 14 August 2005 01:04 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The war on marijuana does result in hundreds of millions oppressed people around the world. Are you saying this is an inaccurate statement?

I don't know where anyone gets the "hundreds of millions" figure, and I'd like to see a reliable source for it. It sounds like typical Emery hyperbole. But what I'm really saying is that appointing himself their "acknowledged leader," however many there are, is ludicrous arrogance.

(And I think phrases like "marijuana culture" are equally ludicrous).

I'm not "credential-checking." I'm just griping about his personality, and his messianism. I want him out of jail, charges dropped, etc., and an end to USian legal imperialism. None of which changes the fact that he's a clown with delusions of grandeur.

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
island empire
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posted 14 August 2005 02:18 PM      Profile for island empire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
right, so as i was thinking, this guy emery is obviously either totally insane, or an unbelievable reactionary and delusional. not only do his political ideas seem maniacal, but his attempts to justify morally a struggle against marijuana prohibition are half-baked at best.

first, culture can't be oppressed, only people can. moreover, there is no such thing as a "marijuana culture". marijuana is a psychotropic narcotic, and while this narcotic can serve a small function in certain cultural ceremonies, this role is never sufficient to justify a claim that it sustains a culture or forms one. cultures have different understandings of the role and function of marijuana, and this emery fellow would do well to understand that it is a cultural response against which he is struggling, not an oppressive force. but of course, you won't get that from ayn rand, because she's crazy too.

second, a central organizing principle of all western societies is that governments have the legitimate right to protect the public interest. we have drug laws for a complex package of reasons (probably not all good ones, i'll grant). as such, you legalization folks should understand that your struggle is not against the state, it's against the ideas that direct the state's repressive forces.

third, marijuana smoking is probably not good for you, and as with other cases of government prohibition, it seems strange to suggest that one is oppressed by criminalization. example? think about cigarettes: are you oppressed if they're too expensive, or if you can't smoke in a cafe? no. are you justified in claiming oppression if you are imprisoned for smuggling cigarettes? no. are cigarette companies justified in claiming oppression if they're made to pay for the deleterious effects of their product? no. in the same vein, there is a pretty good argument for emery's incarceration, and a pretty bad argument against it.

don't get me wrong, i don't believe that people should be jailed for using drugs (i've been there too) but yeah, taking this insane road won't get you any closer to your goal. it will just discredit you with a lot of fellow travellers.


From: montréal, canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 14 August 2005 02:25 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This guy sounds like a neo-con rightwing nut job.
He may be a neo-con rightwing nut job, but he's our neo-con rightwing nutjob. He's a Canadian, and is obviously a neo-con rightwing nut job in a uniquely Canadian way - which is why the neo-con rightwing nut jobs across the border hate him, and want so desperately to get their hands on him.

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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posted 14 August 2005 02:33 PM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
He may be a neo-con rightwing nut job, but he's our neo-con rightwing nutjob.

Exactamente. They've got plenty of their own; surely, they don't need to assault Canadian sovereignty to get another one.


From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Carter
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posted 14 August 2005 05:46 PM      Profile for Carter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dazzle me:
cultures have different understandings of the role and function of marijuana, and this emery fellow would do well to understand that it is a cultural response against which he is struggling, not an oppressive force.
What makes you think that something can't be both simultaneously? Or that opportunistic governments couldn't disguise the latter as the former? There are undoubtedly deep-seated cultural reasons why the death penalty tends to be most widely applied in the Southeastern U.S. rather than other regions; why Americans often tend to be easier to convince than other people that their government was ordained by God to spread freedom to the entire world at cruise-missile-point; why it's historically been easier for totalitarian regimes to establish themselves in Russia than in Western Europe; etc. That doesn't make these things any less oppressive.

quote:
second, a central organizing principle of all western societies is that governments have the legitimate right to protect the public interest.
Another central organizing principle of all Western societies is that this "public interest" which the government has the right to "protect" (ie, kidnap and murder people for) always tends, entirely coincidentally I'm sure, to correspond exactly to the interests of the government itself and of the large corporations. Just because something is a central organizing principle of "our" society doesn't make it right. Maybe "we" are wrong?

quote:
as such, you legalization folks should understand that your struggle is not against the state, it's against the ideas that direct the state's repressive forces.
Why couldn't it be against both? Pleading in the alternative in order to broaden the appeal of one's position as much as possible? It would seem to me as though Emery's defenders could use at least three arguments simultaneously, to target different segments of the population. (1) The state should not have the power to prohibit marijuana use or distribution; (2) Even if the state does have the power, it should decline to exercise it and instead focus its energies on more dangerous things (violent crime, hard drugs, whatever); and (3) Even if the state should criminalize marijuana, even if drug users should be tied to the nearest tree and executed, it should be up to each sovereign country to punish its drug users as it sees fit rather than abdicate some of its sovereignty to the criminal law system of a foreign country. By relying on more than one argument (none of which are inconsistent), Emery's defenders can thus get as many people as possible on side. Authoritarian nationalists who hate drug users can be enticed with #3; libertarians on both the right and the left who are not particularly moved by national sovereignty arguments can be enticed with #1; people who smoke marijuana but think that heroin users should be imprisoned can be enticed with #2; etc.

quote:
as with other cases of government prohibition, it seems strange to suggest that one is oppressed by criminalization.
Strange to everyone, perhaps, except to the person spending his life in prison being brutally tortured and raped.

quote:
are you justified in claiming oppression if you are imprisoned for smuggling cigarettes?
Yes. I've never heard of anyone "smuggling" cigarettes from New York to Seattle, or from Montreal to Vancouver. That's just called "carrying." But go from New York to Montreal or from Seattle to Vancouver, and all of the sudden that's called "smuggling" and you risk a prison sentence, just because you've crossed some idiotic imaginary line. I'd say that's oppression. Collusion between governments to divide up the earth's territory between themselves in order to more efficiently oppress "their" citizens.

From: Goin' Down the Road | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
-=+=-
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posted 14 August 2005 06:08 PM      Profile for -=+=-   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
lance wrote:

quote:
I don't know where anyone gets the "hundreds of millions" figure, and I'd like to see a reliable source for it. It sounds like typical Emery hyperbole.

In the interview I heard, Emery said this millions figure came from a UN report. Something to the effect that a hundred fifty million used marijuana regularly.

And it should be said, Emery really is the lead figure in marijuana legalization efforts worldwide, especially in the anglophone western world. (Francophone legalization advocates in Quebec, though do not necessarily accept this).

It should also be said Emery is not a neo-con.

If you read right-wing, Conservative Party coverage of Emery in Canadian blogs, there is a real split right now between social conservatives who want him to be extradited, and libertarian types who think its none of the state's business.

Neo-cons are harsh state control, social conservative types. This description does not fit Emery.

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: -=+=- ]


From: Turtle Island | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 14 August 2005 06:08 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It grows. People found out when they rolled it and lit it and inhaled the fumes it made them feel better.

Wow. For that we throw people in prison for years and years. Meanwhile, booze ruins more lives than just about all other illegal narcotics combined.

Cigarettes? Hey didn't society do a great job on those? Compare usage to 30 years ago. And we didn't have to throw people in prison to do it.

I agree Emery is messianic. But there's this side:

quote:
As you know, I am not afraid of jail, I am not afraid to die. But I do not want to see Michelle Rainey and Greg Williams get extradited. Michelle Rainey is the most selfless activist I have ever known. A fantastic woman who daily suffers with Crohns Disease, needs marijuana to control her very damaged and disabled organs, yet has helped hundreds, if not thousands of people with her unrelenting effort to make marijuana legal. Michelle has been my greatest ally in this struggle, and she surely should be nominated for Sainthood. She is so worthy of your support. She MUST NOT be extradited to a US jail. She will die in horrible pain there. My American friends, and my Canadian friends, this cannot be permitted to happen. A terrible injustice will have occurred if Michelle Rainey exists in pain and torture in an American jail. There will terrible karma in the world if one of God’s most beautiful souls is allowed to be destroyed by apathy and cowardice in this, her most critical time of need. The people can save her from extradition, if they speak out to the Canadian Minister of Justice. Speak to power, my friends, her life depends on it.

On the human side, that's good enough for me.

On the political side, there's so much at stake for both our countries.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 14 August 2005 06:31 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why people want to arrest someone for selling seeds is beyond me.

How about we crack down on violent offenders first, and worry about seed merchants when more serious crimes are virtually unheard of?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 14 August 2005 06:42 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In the interview I heard, Emery said this millions figure came from a UN report. Something to the effect that a hundred fifty million used marijuana regularly.

That sounds plausible. But to go from there, to the claim that "hundreds of millions are oppressed" is, again, typical Emery bullshit. I'll warrant that some proportion of that hundred and fifty million, for example, are in India, where as I understand it marijuana ("bhang") is more or less legal.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 14 August 2005 07:07 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are different degrees of legality of ganjaa/hashish/bhang in India. Sometimes it depends where you are, sometimes who you are. Where I lived, every day I pedaled by the "Government Bhang Store". In other places (particularly holy sites), ganjaa is legal. And if you're a sadhu, I believe hash is legal.

But in downtown Bombay you could be busted for it. Could. Often, at least when I was there, where you make your purchase, there is a cop sitting on a chowki about 50m away. He's there to make sure the police are getting a cut of every transaction.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 14 August 2005 07:11 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The best critique of "that" kind of libertarianism can be found here.

The Libertarian As Conservative: Bob Black

I agreed to come here today to speak on some such subject as “The Libertarian as Conservative.” To me this is so obvious that I am hard put to find something to say to people who still think libertarianism has something to do with liberty. A libertarian is just a Republican who takes drugs. I’d have preferred a more controversial topic like “The Myth of the Penile Orgasm.” But since my attendance here is subsidized by the esteemed distributor of a veritable reference library on mayhem and dirty tricks, I can’t just take the conch and go rogue. I will indeed mutilate the sacred cow which is libertarianism, as ordered, but I’ll administer a few hard lefts to the right in my own way. And I don’t mean the easy way. I could just point to the laissez-faire Trilateralism of the Libertarian Party, then leave and go look for a party. It doesn’t take long to say that if you fight fire with fire, you’ll get burned.

If that were all I came up with, somebody would up and say that the LP has lapsed from the libertarian faith, just as Christians have insisted that their behavior over the last 1900 years or so shouldn’t be held against Christianity. There are libertarians who try to retrieve libertarianism from the Libertarian Party just as there are Christians who try to reclaim Christianity from Christendom and communists (I’ve tried to myself) who try to save communism from the Communist parties and states. They (and I) meant well but we lost. Libertarianism is party-archist fringe-rightism just as socialism really is what Eastern European dissidents call “real socialism,” i.e., the real-life state-socialism of queues, quotas, corruption and coercion. But I choose not to knock down this libertarian strawman-qua-man who’s blowing over anyway. A wing of the Reaganist Right has obviously appropriated, with suspect selectivity, such libertarian themes as deregulation and voluntarism. Ideologues indignate that Reagan has travestied their principles. Tough shit! I notice that it’s their principles, not mine, that he found suitable to travesty. This kind of quarrel doesn’t interest me. My reasons for regarding libertarianism as conservative run deeper than that.

My target is what most libertarians have in common — with each other, and with their ostensible enemies. Libertarians serve the state all the better because they declaim against it. At bottom, they want what it wants. But you can’t want what the state wants without wanting the state, for what the state wants is the conditions in which it flourishes. My (unfriendly) approach to modern society is to regard it as an integrated totality. Silly doctrinaire theories which regard the state as a parasitic excrescence on society cannot explain its centuries-long persistence, its ongoing encroachment upon what was previously market terrain, or its acceptance by the overwhelming majority of people including its demonstrable victims.

http://www.inspiracy.com/black/abolition/libertarian.html


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
-=+=-
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7072

posted 14 August 2005 07:39 PM      Profile for -=+=-   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vigilante,

That still doesn't make a libertarian a neo-con, anymore than an anarchist is a communist.


From: Turtle Island | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
unmaladroit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7325

posted 18 August 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for unmaladroit        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 'lance:
...typical Emery bullshit...where as I understand it marijuana ("bhang") is more or less legal.

lance: bhang is not marijuana. bhang is a milk based drink that includes marijuana leaves, buds, almonds, cinnamon, nutmeg, rosewater...

dazzle me: if you're going to use big words like "psychotropic", it's isn't unfair for me to point out that chocolate, sugar, and your morning coffee are also psychotropic drugs

quote:
A psychoactive drug or psychotropic substance is a chemical that alters brain function, resulting in temporary changes in perception, mood, consciousness, or behaviour. Such drugs are often used for recreational and spiritual purposes, as well as in medicine, especially for treating neurological and psychological illnesses.

whatever marc emery's personal philosophies, and his political influence to "hundreds of millions" of pot users who don't have a clue who he is, one fact is certainly true - i am canadian, and i am oppressed for my desire to grow a female pot plant and make bhang, or have a toke. am i part of a pot culture? only in the sense that there are fellow canadians who are likewise oppressed.


From: suspicionville, bc | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 19 August 2005 06:43 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
lance: bhang is not marijuana. bhang is a milk based drink that includes marijuana leaves, buds, almonds, cinnamon, nutmeg, rosewater...

Right, thanks for the clarification (and the idea, and the link. Sounds like a great way to indulge without smoking). And thanks to rasmus_raven for his gloss on the situation in India, which sounds at least as complex and contradictory as I'd thought it might be.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 19 August 2005 07:31 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unmaladroit:
dazzle me: if you're going to use big words like "psychotropic", it's isn't unfair for me to point out that chocolate, sugar, and your morning coffee are also psychotropic drugsre are fellow canadians who are likewise oppressed.
Ok, but the last time I had cup 'o java and a chockolic glazed at timmy's I could still drive safely (I think).

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 19 August 2005 07:38 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To be fair chubbybear, this isn't what the topic is about. I smoke hash and weed. I like to smoke hash and weed. I don't drive nor would I drive under the influence of any drug, including ones prescribed by a doctor if they effected me in such a manner.

This is about sovereignty and freedom to smoke pot, weed, whatever you want to call it just like someone can enjoy a drink, or a cigar (both of which do greater damage). It's hypocrisy to paint marijuana as some type of dangerous drug (not that you are) when drinking alcohol is far worse and does cause death.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
island empire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8064

posted 19 August 2005 08:17 PM      Profile for island empire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
first, i said that it's a psychotropic narcotic. singling out the "psychotropic" is like singling out the "deadly" in deadly accident ('hah, dazzle me, a lot of things can be deadly, so what!).

second, actually, the point of this thread is more to point to the strange paradox whereby left-wing progressives go out of their way to talk about how this emery guy is a hero, when really he's just a wacko who smokes marijuana.

third, though i personally feel that marijuana should probably be legal, i really do think that there's something to the community standards argument. thus, i don't think that this is simply a matter of 'i'm canadian, i want to do this, they won't let me'. there are also numerous other considerations: burden on the health system, community standards, etc.

but yeah, the point is still that emery is a freak.


From: montréal, canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 19 August 2005 08:20 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's all good - I have nada agin' the maryjane - please feel free to pass me a blunt anytime - I gave up my car some time ago. I was just teasing about the gosh darn seriousness about debating the concept of 'psychotropic'. I think all drugs should be legal. Not simply decriminalized, but legal. Now, the issue of the arrest and the 'sovereignty' issue, that's more complex, I think. Personally, I would shake his hand if he gave every single adult Canadian a bag 'o seeds, but unfortunately, I think he made the blunder of shipping said seeds to the United Mistakes of America. This is apparently a big 'nono' in the land down there, and we went and signed some kind of treaty to ship peoples wanted in the US back there. So, do we honour this treaty, or say no, and then what? I'm just askin'?
From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 19 August 2005 08:25 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
United Mistakes of America

Now that was a funny one! I say no, we honour nothing the US commands us to do. We tell them to get their own country in order before they even think about doing anything to another country in the world. The getting their own country together part should take a very very long time so in my utopia, they'd not be bothering us for oh, a couple hundred years.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Arvin Gentile
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8784

posted 20 August 2005 01:48 AM      Profile for Arvin Gentile        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Emery is a very mishievous boy. He doesn't deserve getting screwed over for selling MJ seeds. His bust is a blow to every harm reduction effort in North America.

Protest messges can be sent to:

Irwin Cotler
Parliamentary Office:
312 West Block
Ottawa ON  K1A 0A6
Phone:
Fax:
Email: (613) 995-0121
(613) 992-6762
cotlei@parl.gc.ca

Constituency Office:
4770 Kent Ave
Suite 316
Montreal QC  H3W 1H2
Phone:
Fax:
Email: (514) 283-0171
(514) 283-2407
cotlei1@parl.gc.ca


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Betray My Secrets
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9834

posted 20 August 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for Betray My Secrets     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We are sorry, but Mr. Cotler is currently vactioning in Israel -- where he has duel citizenship -- and is unable to represent the Canadian people right now.

Please leave your message at the sound of Bush's orgasm.


From: Guyana | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 20 August 2005 08:57 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We are sorry, but Mr. Cotler is currently vactioning in Israel -- where he has duel citizenship...

I'd be interested in hearing why this is relevant to anything.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 August 2005 09:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No kidding. What the hell is that?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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