babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » current events   » national news   » Dead soldier's mother protests against Bush

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Dead soldier's mother protests against Bush
ReeferMadness
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2743

posted 07 August 2005 11:27 PM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Boston Globe.

This could be the start of something that finally ends the occupation. This woman is very brave to say the things she's saying down there. I hope the protests finally get some traction in the court of public opinion.


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
mary123
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6125

posted 08 August 2005 12:24 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I predict nothing will come of it (hope I'm wrong though.)

The band of thugs in office will never allow a dead soldiers mom to sway public opinion. The thugs are in office and no amount of wrongdoing or criminality on their part will clear them out of office. They are pretty much immoral and without shame or conscience.

Tom DeLay and Karl Rove will never be persecuted for their endless list of crimes and yet Bill Clinton almost got impeached over a blow job?
It's really scary that republicans are above the law and get away with murder. This is not freedom or democracy. Scary is what it is.

Who will invade America and rescue those poor America people?


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
catje
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7841

posted 08 August 2005 01:50 AM      Profile for catje     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I had a little dyslexic moment when I looked at this thread title on the TAT, and thought someone had found an article declaring:

Soldier's Dead Mother Protests Against Bush

Good Lord, sez I, even the zombies are anti-Dubya! Now I have visions of legions of the undead marching on Crawford.


From: lotusland | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2743

posted 08 August 2005 02:06 AM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Soldier's Dead Mother Protests Against Bush

Whatever gets results.

quote:
I predict nothing will come of it

Don't forget, it was the body count (American, of course; nobody bothers to count bodies of poor countries) that did in Vietnam. Admittedly, the numbers are much lower right now but I think there is less tolerance than there used to be for dead sons and husbands.

Grieving mothers and widows are powerful emotional symbols in the American psyche where war has such a prominent place.


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
mary123
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6125

posted 08 August 2005 02:17 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ReeferMadness:

Don't forget, it was the body count (American, of course; nobody bothers to count bodies of poor countries) that did in Vietnam. Admittedly, the numbers are much lower right now but I think there is less tolerance than there used to be for dead sons and husbands.

Grieving mothers and widows are powerful emotional symbols in the American psyche where war has such a prominent place.



Oh I agree that's why the administration will do everything in its power to divert, redirect the public's attention elsewhere. The dead soldiers coffins weren't allowed to be shown on tv or in the news for this reason. That compassion deficient monkey Bush did not even go visit the war dead. Because he knew it is a public relations disaster to do so.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7709

posted 08 August 2005 09:44 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ReeferMadness, about those casualty figures. See www.tbrnews.org, scroll down to Bush's Butcher Bill. The author puts the real toll at 7,000. There are undeniable faults with the story, the website, and their sources; however, his assertion about Germany seems reasonable.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 10 August 2005 05:26 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I pulled the following from
www.bushflash.com


quote:
Cindy Sheehan needs your help. Sheehan, a bereaved mother who lost her 24-year-old son, Casey, in Iraq, on April 4, 2004, is camped outside of Bush's Crawford Ranch, and ain't going away, until Bush meets with her, and explains himself.

On August 3rd, Bush emerged from his protective shell, forced to respond to two days of violence in Iraq which claimed 21 american lives. Bush's response? "We have to honor the sacrifices of the fallen by completing the mission." "The families of the fallen can be assured that they died for a noble cause."

This empty rehetoric didn't sit well with me, and it sure as hell didn't, with Cindy. She has two questions for Bush: "Why did my son have to die?", and "What's this 'Noble Cause' that you say he died for?"

Before I comment on this further, I urge you to go to Meetwithcindy.org, sign the petition, make a few phone calls to the media and white house, and spread Cindy's story far and wide. You can find further resources at: Gold Star Families for Peace, Military Families Speak out, and the Crawford Peace House.

Give her all you can.

Now, here's what gets me- the response to this one, lone woman, by both the right wing, and Crawford, Texas law enforcement has been predictably shameful. Matt Drudge (he doesn't deserve a link) has lambasted her, calling her a hypocrite and a "flip-flopper". Crawford Cops forced her peace march into a ditch, and then Bush sent out two junior-level functionaries out to try to intimidate her, And Free Republic offers up the usual idiocy:


"This woman needs to be freeped! Any freepers down Texas way, please go down there and give her the business."

"I for one am sick of this lying-self-pitying-wallowing-in-her-new-found-infamy-crying-for-attention-bitch."

"What We Are About To Do Here Is What The Good Lord Would Call A Cleansing of the Wicked. I Call It A Good Old Fashioned Texas Ass Kicking."

"What We Are About To Do Here Is What The Good Lord Would Call A Cleansing of the Wicked. I Call It A Good Old Fashioned Texas Ass Kicking."

"May all these traitorous scum live a miserable life and die a slow death."


You get the idea.



From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 10 August 2005 06:03 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Daily Kos reports on a possibility that Sheehan is to be arrested on Thursday; it's not clear how factual it is, but Sheehan appears to believe it.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 10 August 2005 06:29 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Lone Star Iconoclast has daily updates about Sheehan and friends; including photos. Apparently it's been either very hot or raining very hard there, and she has laryngitis. This afternoon
quote:
...Cindy is just going from media to media, one after another. NBC representative, IFC (Independant film Channel), lots of signs out here: "Bush Lied, People Died, No ore war!" "No more Blood for Oil," "Jesus Wept," "Bring the Troops Home Now," "Why Is George Bush Afraid to Talk to Cindy," "100,000’s of Iraqi civilians dead," "Who lied? Who died? Who paid? Who profits?"

A ton of flowers are everywhere. Cindy Sheehan is wearing a blue overcoat and carrying two yellow roses. At the bottom of the stem, it says “Texas Democrat”...


I think the Lone Star Iconoclast is the paper that wrote an excellent editorial opposing Bush's re-election last fall.

This event may have legs; it reminds me of the end of the TV series "Taken" where all the alien abductees come to the farm in Texas so the army can't just disappear the main characters.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
brookmere
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9693

posted 10 August 2005 10:31 PM      Profile for brookmere     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It has recently occurred to me that if it continues at the present rate, the US death toll in Iraq will surpass that of 9/11 some time during the US mid-term election campaign next year. Nice milestone.
From: BC (sort of) | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 10 August 2005 11:05 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by brookmere:
It has recently occurred to me that if it continues at the present rate, the US death toll in Iraq will surpass that of 9/11 some time during the US mid-term election campaign next year. Nice milestone.

Something else to consider: From 1961-1965 in Vietnam, there were 1,864 troops killed in action, 7,337 wounded in action, and 18 missing in action (a four year period).

In a two year and six month period in the Iraq theatre (this is 18 months less than the same period of time on the Vietnam war timeline) 1,821
U.S. troops have been killed in action (2,015 killed in action if you add in non-U.S. coalition casualties).

[ 10 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 10 August 2005 11:12 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Address to Veterans For Peace Convention
Cindy Sheehan t r u t h o u t | Transcript

http://www.truthout.org/cindy.shtml

(scroll 1/3 of the way down the page)

Quote:
Then we have this lying bastard, George Bush, taking a 5-week vacation in a time of war. You know what? I'm never going to get to enjoy another vacation, because of him.

My vacation probably ... this is really sad because I have a really cute dress I was going to wear to the banquet tomorrow night, but I'm either gonna be in jail or in a tent in Crawford, waiting until that jerk comes out and tells me why my son died.

- snip -

You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don't tell me my son died for freedom and democracy.

Cuz, we're not freer. You're taking away our freedoms. The Iraqi people aren't freer, they're much worse off than before you meddled in their country.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7911

posted 10 August 2005 11:30 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"it started in low. . . and then it started to grow. . . "

Grieving Mother's War Protest Draws Notice

quote:
The mother of a fallen U.S. soldier who started a quiet roadside peace vigil near President Bush's ranch last weekend is drawing supporters from across the nation.

Dozens of people have joined her and others have sent flowers and food. One activist called her "the Rosa Parks of the anti-war movement."

Cindy Sheehan, 48, of Vacaville, Calif., says she was surprised at the response.

"Before my son was killed, I used to think that one person could not make a difference," she said Wednesday under a tent where she has slept since Saturday. "But one person that is surrounded and supported by millions of people can be heard."

snip

"Cindy Sheehan has become the Rosa Parks of the anti-war movement," said Rev. Lennox Yearwood, leader of the Hip Hop Caucus, an activist group. "She's tired, fed up and she's not going to take it anymore, and so now we stand with her."

Some veterans and relatives of those killed have called Sheehan's vigil a distraction and continue to support the U.S. military action in Iraq.

At her makeshift camp in muddy ditches off the two-lane, winding road leading to Bush's ranch, Sheehan has spent the past several days talking to reporters, hugging fellow protesters and taking brief breaks to eat sandwiches and fruit brought by supporters. Her vigil has also become a hot topic on the Internet and blogs.

Although she doesn't expect Bush to meet with her in Crawford, she says if he did she would ask him whether he has encouraged his twin daughters to enlist.

"I want him to quit using my son's death to justify more killing," she said. "The only way he can honor my son's death is to bring the troops home."



From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 10 August 2005 11:33 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's interesting to watch US documentaries and special news programs that proudly proclaim that American troops have much better military technology and protective gear than they had forty years ago, and better battlefield intelligence via satellites and digital technology as opposed to the analog
field equipment in Vietnam. Yet they are dying at a higher casualty rate than in Vietnam and are being taken out by crude improvised explosive devices made using mechanical washing machine timers, cordite, ballistite or gunpowder, and scrap metal and nails. No superpowers are supporting insurgents in Iraq with conventional military aid. North Vietnam benefited from Soviet, Chinese, and Warsaw Pact conventional military materiel assistance and intelligence. Yet the casaulty rate, including US and coalition forces, in Iraq is running higher.

From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9443

posted 10 August 2005 11:40 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Boom Boom

It is a different style of warfare. You can not compare Vietnam to Iraq, the tactics being used in Iraq are not the same type used in Vietnam.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 10 August 2005 11:51 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah. Overwhelming, modern military force on the invader's side is producing more casaulties at a faster rate from an enemy much less sophisicated than faced in Viet Nam.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9443

posted 11 August 2005 12:00 AM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Boom Boom

Actually the weapons being used the insurgents are quiet similar to those used by the NVA and Viet Cong such the AK-47 and RPG-7.

The major difference between Iraq and Vietnam is that most of the fighting in taking part in urban areas.

I think the NVA and Viet Cong are equally sophisticated enemy as the insurgent forces in Iraq.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6125

posted 11 August 2005 12:32 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
American soldiers are dropping like flies and the 'French' president is getting 5 weeks vacation hey just like the French do!!.

Mind you George Bush is on a constant vacation when he isn't exercising daily (1-2) hours or taking his noon time nap. Take out an hour for breakfast, lunch and dinner and the baby is in bed by 9:00pm when the FUCK does this guy do any work at all. Factor in all the other times he gets to take more time off at the Crawford Ranch and Bush is really just a spokeperson for the real powers that be. This man never works. He just has time to look pretty, get friendly with the teleprompter and 'look presidential'.

American soldiers are dropping like flies and the president is on his official vacation. Not counting his 'unofficial' ones that we dare not hear about. Neocons are such hypocritical pices of shit who deserve to be the ones dying like dogs in Iraq.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
brookmere
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9693

posted 11 August 2005 06:41 AM      Profile for brookmere     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Something else to consider: From 1961-1965 in Vietnam, there were 1,864 troops killed in action, 7,337 wounded in action, and 18 missing in action (a four year period).

A faulty analogy. The US did not begin to engage in direct combat in Vietnam until early 1965 (after the 1964 election). Although US military casualties in Vietnam had dated back to 1945, those were advisors.

During the 8-year period that US troops engaged in direct combat (1965-1973), it lost 58,000 dead, or about 7,000/year.

Something to think about however - for each death, there are many more US troops maimed or seriously injured in Iraq than in Vietnam, because they are better today at keeping casualties from dying.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: brookmere ]


From: BC (sort of) | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 11 August 2005 08:53 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Variants of both the RPG and AK-47 were used in Viet Nam. Both are technology of 40 years ago. Effective and deadly, yes, even used against the modern and advanced technology of the US and coalition forces.

My argument is that the most advanced technology still can't defeat a determined enemy - either in Viet Nam or Iraq. RPG's especially are low-tech weapons, are not very accurate, and have a short range.

Quote: "In addition, the high-tech equipment aboard helicopters is not effective against shoulder-fired grenades, which don't rely on electronic tracking or a heating seeking system, military experts said. "To the extent that they work, our jammers work better against more sophisticated equipment than what the Iraqis have," said Hellman.
from: http://tinyurl.com/8rpou

And the coalition with their modern sophisicated, state-of-the-art equipment continues to be taken out in attacks by often simple and sometimes improvised weapons in Iraq.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 12 August 2005 12:46 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lone Star Iconoclast update today; they are getting ready for Bush's motorcade to pass by in an hour and a quarter; he's going to a fundraiser a mile doen the road.

Interesting ; the Globe and Mail has a rumour that he helicoptered out to avoid Sheehan.

Whatever, he's such a coward.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Themis
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7702

posted 12 August 2005 11:18 PM      Profile for Themis        Edit/Delete Post
On this subject, there is this Gary Hart article. Cindy Sheehan reminds me of what our own Arar is doing here to hold to account the truly barbaric Bush administration.
From: Babylon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 13 August 2005 06:47 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This bbc article discusses the impact of bereaved mothers' protests in many parts of the world, from Las Madres de la Plaza de Mayo standing up to the Argentine dictatorship - at least one Madre was "disappeared", by the way, through Russian and Israeli mothers' protests for peace, to Cindy Shehan's vigil.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 13 August 2005 01:14 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AP report on Bush motorcade driving by with details on his fundraiser, etc.
quote:
...Cindy Sheehan, a California mother leading the protesters, held a sign that read: "Why do you make time for donors and not for me?"

It's unclear whether Bush, riding in a black Suburban with tinted windows, looked at the demonstrators as his caravan passed. He arrived before noon, local time, at a neighbor's ranch for a barbecue where he was expected to raise at least $2 million for the Republican National Committee, said RNC spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt...

...Sheehan began her standoff on Saturday, declaring she would stay for the entire month that Bush plans to stay in Texas if he won't meet with her. Since then, dozens of other activists have joined her, including at least three other parents who have lost children in the war, although the protesters began facing increased antagonism Thursday from locals and opposition from other military families...



From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 14 August 2005 08:35 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Today a neighbour near the camp shot into the air several times. He says he is not political, but he is fed up with all the people there. Read the conversation.
quote:
... Another reporter walked up and asked, “Are you Mr. Mattlage?”

“I sure as hell am,” he answered. “Well, I want to get on the Letterman Show. I want to get on Jay Leno. This is a joke out here. You done your right and I believe in ??. This ain’t about Democrats and this ain’t about Republicans. This is about my rights and these people’s rights as American citizens who live here. You done your deal. You done your show. Now move on. I’m asking that as an American citizen and a taxpaying citizen, becuse I pay taxes to the middle of this road, and I mow it, and I keep it clean, and all I got now is trespassers. If that ain’t right, it ain’t right, but I want the whole world to know what they’ve done. They started out doing right and now they are doing wrong. When they first got here, I understood their cause and I appreciate it. I don’t like the war no more than anybody else, but right here we got war . . right on my front yard. Everybody here is sick of it. If everybody will leave now, everybody will go home a winner. Then the president can enjoy his vacation like everybody else and these farmers and ranchers can go check their cattle without having to go through a campsite.”

Deborah: Are any of them prevented from getting to their cattle now?

Mr. Mattlage: Ma’am, who wants to wade through all these people walking around there. What this is a war of porta-potties and the one with the most porta-potties is gonna’ win and you know who that is don’t you. You all got started out going to the bathroom in a five gallon bucket. Now, I see three porta-potties. How many more porta-potties are we going to have to put up with? Now, George Bush has more porta-potties than you all, so if I was a bettin’ man, I’d say he’s gonna win. So let’s don’t make this a little more ridiculous than it is now. Everybody go back a winner. You’ve made your point. I’m proud of you. God bless all of you...



From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7024

posted 14 August 2005 08:44 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
Today a neighbour near the camp shot into the air several times. He says he is not political, but he is fed up with all the people there.

And where exactly was the Secret Service?


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 14 August 2005 08:51 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Read the whole thing; they talked to him, also the Sheriff.

I find it strangely comforting that Bush has such calm and stable neighbours. Maybe they will get fed up with him and take direct action.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7911

posted 14 August 2005 08:56 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They were there:

quote:
— Mr. Mattlage turned and walked back in the direction of his house. Both Secret Service Police and McLennan County Sheriff’s showed up to talk with Mr. Mattlage. The men went into his gate and they spoke together for a few minutes. Mr. Mattlage then turned and walked back in the direction of the media waiting at his gate.

Mr. Mattlage: What we have here is we got the Secret Service here and the Sheriff. The Secret Service has got all the power, but they don’t have any rights to get rid of this stuff. The Sheriff’s department has got the law which means, they said that we have no rights because they can’t stop this. So we’ve got two law enforcement agencies and all these helicopters up here and none of them can do nothing and will do nothing.

Reporter: Larry, why did you shoot the gun?

Mr. Mattlage: Well, I’m getting ready for dove season and you all are still gonna’ be here, I’m practicin’.

Reporter: Was there another message involved in the gunshot?

Mr. Mattlage: You figure it out for yourself.

Reporter: Are there any laws . . .

Mr. Mattlage: No, in Texas, you can shoot . . I ain’t threating nobody. I ain’t pointing a gun at nobody. This is Texas.



Typical Texas asshole. It's all about his guns, his property and his taxpayin'


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7024

posted 14 August 2005 09:02 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Guess I should have read closer. D'oh!
From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 14 August 2005 09:13 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
His outrage over the porta-potties seemed heartfelt and genuine to me. I wonder if it really is impinging on his life, or if he is just obsessing over having people camping near his home.

I wonder if Bush is chuckling over this; I think it is more likely to hurt him in the media than help him.

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 15 August 2005 01:25 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He probably doesn't even know about it. He doesn't read newspapers, remember?

"Say, who are all these people out there?"

"Um, well-wishers Sir. They're thanking you for staying the course in Iraq."

"Well that's jim-dandy!".


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 15 August 2005 09:42 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I need to go on with my life." Because he's sacrificed and struggled so much, I'm sure. And after all, as he said during the debates, "being president is hard work."
quote:

"I think it's also important for me to go on with my life, to keep a balanced life."

The comments came prior to a bike ride on the ranch with journalists and aides. It also came as the crowd of protesters grew in support of Sheehan, the California mother who came here Aug. 6 demanding to talk to Bush about the death of her son Casey. Sheehan arrived earlier in the week with about a half dozen supporters. As of yesterday (Saturday) there were about 300 anti-war protesters and approximately 100 people supporting the Bush Administration. In addition to the two-hour bike ride, Bush's Saturday schedule included an evening Little League Baseball playoff game, a lunch meeting with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, a nap, some fishing and some reading. "I think the people want the president to be in a position to make good, crisp decisions and to stay healthy," he said when asked about bike riding while a grieving mom wanted to speak with him. "And part of my being is to be outside exercising."

On Friday, Bush's motorcade drove by the protest site en route to a Republican fund-raising event at a nearby ranch.

As Bush rolled by, Sheehan held a sign that said, "Why do you make time for donors and not for me?"


http://www.al.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/1124011285247770.xml&coll=2


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 August 2005 09:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What this is a war of porta-potties and the one with the most porta-potties is gonna’ win and you know who that is don’t you. You all got started out going to the bathroom in a five gallon bucket. Now, I see three porta-potties. How many more porta-potties are we going to have to put up with? Now, George Bush has more porta-potties than you all, so if I was a bettin’ man, I’d say he’s gonna win. So let’s don’t make this a little more ridiculous than it is now.

This is priceless, right up there with Rumsfeld's known unknowns and Cheney's last throes. We must keep this Bush-era classic alive; we must.

I agree with you, Contrarian: that is more damaging than helpful to Bush. It is, in fact, ridiggulous, and yet somehow very apt.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ephemeral
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8881

posted 15 August 2005 10:52 AM      Profile for ephemeral     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i hope more parents, and other people, who have lost their children, and family members, in the war join sheehan.
From: under a bridge with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 15 August 2005 11:01 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some of them could just keep their gobs shut.

David Duke wrote a strong letter of support for her.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
ephemeral
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8881

posted 15 August 2005 11:08 AM      Profile for ephemeral     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sorry i sound ignorant, but who's david duke?
From: under a bridge with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 August 2005 11:12 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmmn. ephemeral, David Duke is an American neo-Nazi.

Where did you read/see that, Heywood?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 August 2005 11:14 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
David Duke: Wikipedia
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ephemeral
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8881

posted 15 August 2005 11:19 AM      Profile for ephemeral     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oohhh yes, i know who he is now. thanks skdadl. the name didn't ring a bell at first - i have a hard time remembering names. i should have done a google search myself to save you the trouble.

heywood floyd, do you have a link to the letter he wrote?


From: under a bridge with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5647

posted 15 August 2005 11:25 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
Here's a link

[ 15 August 2005: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 August 2005 11:39 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Cindy Sheehan is not responsible for David Duke's opportunism, but since that foul message of his is now up on his blog, it would be good to hear her disavow any sympathy for him.

I had not read her letter to "Nightline" before, which Duke is quoting in his blogpost. I don't see any problem with her references to PNAC or the neo-con agenda, all of which are pretty much on the record. I think that she is wrong, as well as clumsy, to be attaching the invasion of Iraq specifically to the neo-cons' commitment to Israel, although they undoubtedly are so committed.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 15 August 2005 11:41 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh sure, because David Duke is supposedly supporting her for a bigoted reason of his own creation, that nullifies her effort.

Next smear?


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 August 2005 11:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
josh, what did you think of her letter to "Nightline"? (At least, what Duke is quoting of it.)
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 15 August 2005 11:49 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The only thing I read that she wrote or said was that Israel should get out of Palestine. A sentiment I wholeheartedly share. But the Drudges, etc. of the world are using that to smear her as some kind of anti-Semite.

In any event, it is a fact that powerful elements in Israel were egging on Washington for the invasion, as they are now doing with Iran.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5647

posted 15 August 2005 11:51 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
This is what she's quoted as writing to Nightline

Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full-well that my son, my family, this nation, and this world were betrayed by George [W.] Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agenda after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy…not for the real reason, because the Arab-Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy. That hasn’t changed since America invaded and occupied Iraq…in fact it has gotten worse.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 15 August 2005 11:52 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, Cindy Sheehan is not responsible for David Duke's opportunism

No, her belief that the occupation of Iraq is part of some Israeli agenda is, most likely.

What the hell was she thinking? Now it's not about Iraq, and withdrawing the troops, it's about Israel, and whether they are or aren't the puppetmasters.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 15 August 2005 11:58 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
She also said it's about PNAC, right? Gosh, what was she thinking? How opportunistic! Where does this grieving mother get off having an opinion about America's abysmal policies in the ME?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 15 August 2005 12:00 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel.

That's a totally proper interpretation of events. As I said above, Israel was eager to see Hussein removed, and PNAC had adopted Netanyahu's 1996 memo about "democratizing" the Arab states.
That Iraq is well on its way to becoming an Islamic state, a la Iran, apparently was not part of their brilliant foresight.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 August 2005 12:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To me, Cheney's agenda was broader than PNAC's, majorly amoral, and that is why the invasion was carried out.

She may not be wrong, but she has oversimplified clumsily, which is never helpful.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 15 August 2005 12:18 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Nothing expressed as part of public discourse in the States these days seems to be helpful. No matter what you say, you can find spin-meisters on every side engaging in astonishing tactics designed to make whatever is being said into whatever you want it to say.

It's a nightmare. A freakin' Orwellian nightmare.

[ 15 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8045

posted 15 August 2005 12:54 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My problem with this crusade is that until her own son died she seems to have had no problem with the fact thousands of Iraqi mothers had lost their children.

Her kid wasn't drafted. It's not as if she dug in her heels at the get-go and resisted the illegal slaughter.

I guess it's another case of It all depends on whose ox is being gored.

Makes me feel if her son was still alive she'd still be gnawing the graaaaaaaaaaas with the other baa baa baaa sheep.

It's a sin and a shame anyone's kid has to die in war.


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 15 August 2005 12:57 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Oh sure, because David Duke is supposedly supporting her for a bigoted reason of his own creation, that nullifies her effort.

Next smear?


Are you refering to me "smearing" her? Cause if you are you need to read for context.

If not, then I apologize up front for being bitchy.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 15 August 2005 02:58 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
anne, she tried to persuade her son not to join the army in the first place. I think she said somewhere that she offered to help him get to Canada rather than go to Iraq [or she wishes she had, I'm not sure]. Some smearers have used that statement against her; "unpatriotic" etc.

I think many people become activists only after their ox has been gored; why condemn someone for having such a human reaction? At least these people have shown they are capable of learning from experience.

[ 15 August 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 15 August 2005 03:26 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The heck with David Duke; Viggo Mortenson visited Cindy on Aug 12 I think; it's mentioned in one or two of the Lone Star updates. Here is a hilarious blog on a not unrelated topic.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 15 August 2005 03:30 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think many people become activists only after their ox has been gored; why condemn someone for having such a human reaction?

Because it's like wanting your lottery winnings when you win, but your money back when you don't?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 15 August 2005 03:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No it's not, as long as you stay progressive after your incentive for doing so is no longer as acute. That's a completely bad analogy. Most people who are progressive come to their opinion through some kind of experience that radicalizes them.

If someone is pro-war until a family member is killed and then it dawns on them while they're grieving that their family member died for no good reason, it's not the least bit inconsistent or hypocritical for them to embrace and anti-war or pacifist point of view from that point forward.

People change their minds about politics and it's usually because something has happened that has convinced them they were wrong about their past convictions.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 15 August 2005 06:14 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Too bad it has to take the death of a family member to make them see the value of life.
From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 15 August 2005 07:35 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some useful background with links by Tom Engelhart.
quote:
...Casey Sheehan died on April 4, 2004, soon after he arrived for his tour of duty in Iraq. His mother had never wanted him to go to a war that was "wrong," a place where he might have to "kill innocent people" and where he might die. ("I begged him not to go. I said, 'I'll take you to Canada'... but he said, 'Mom, I have to go. It's my duty. My buddies are going.'")...

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
rockerbiff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9273

posted 15 August 2005 07:59 PM      Profile for rockerbiff   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm doing my bit

http://amputee-online.com


From: Republic of East Van | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 15 August 2005 08:10 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bush is really just a spokeperson for the real powers

Bingo.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7911

posted 15 August 2005 11:48 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is kinda what I was afraid of -- that this gesture on her part would, in typical USian fashion, start spinning completely out of control and become a contest as to which side can hype the event better.

I sense that the velvet revolution, this ain't.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 16 August 2005 01:40 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting bit of information about the guy who fired off his gun:
quote:
...The Lone Star State too has been contributing an extra dash of color - most notably on Sunday when Larry Mattlage, a local farmer who rents his land to networks for a view of the President's 1,600 acre spread, fired his shotgun twice into the air, sending reporters into a frenzy and an ever-nervous Presidential secret service into apoplexy...
So are the campers blocking his source of income?

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 August 2005 01:44 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bush is really just a spokeperson for the real powers

And that would be the Freemasons? Or Israel?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 August 2005 02:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Which do you think it is?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 16 August 2005 02:07 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, based on who profits from every decision he makes, I'd have to say oil companies and defense contractors. And nearly every major person in his administration, including Bush himself, is either an oil person or a once and future defense contractor person.
Bush & family - oil. Well, both oil and defense, really.
Cheney - contractors.
Rice - oil.
Everyone associated with defense - contractors.
Perle & Wolfowitz style hangers on - mostly both.

So, how wrongheaded is it that a group of corporations that nearly everyone in the administration has very strong connections with, and which is a major mucho source of campaign funding, should be described as "controlling" the administration? Your knee-jerk sarcasm gets tired, Magoo.

Israel has a couple fingers in, too, but if their interests weren't generally dovetailing with the oil companies' they'd be out faster than you can make a snide remark. Which in Mr. Magoo's case is pretty darned fast.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 August 2005 02:24 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, based on who profits from every decision he makes, I'd have to say oil companies and defense contractors.

They may benefit from his decisions, but I don't see how that makes them the string-pullers.

Someone would have benefitted if Nader had won, too. Again, I doubt that would confer any specific power on them, whoever they be.

quote:
Which do you think it is?

Neither. I don't believe that the United States is controlled by Israel, nor that it's controlled by any "secret societies", including the Masons, but also the Skull and Bones, the Illuminati, etc., etc., etc.

The real "power"? The electorate. If only as many voters had voted Bush as voted Nader, Bush would be at home right now watching The Price Is Right and choking on those dry little donuts.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 16 August 2005 02:25 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And then there was the "Iraqi woman" who appeared in Texas to tell Sheehan that she was wrong, that Casey died for "my freedom".

Then she did all the right-wing talk shows, but none of them pointed out that her husband is a government propagandist.

Oh, I mean, he is a journalist for Voice of America,

quote:
The Voice of America (VOA) is an international multimedia broadcasting service funded by the U.S. government through the Broadcasting Board of Governors.

This Iraqi woman lives in the US, of course.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/15/221353/668

[ 16 August 2005: Message edited by: jeff house ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 16 August 2005 02:30 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

The real "power"? The electorate. If only as many voters had voted Bush as voted Nader, Bush would be at home right now watching The Price Is Right and choking on those dry little donuts.


The electorate? Really? You mean the electorate that placed Bush second in 2000?

From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 August 2005 02:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, that would be them.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 16 August 2005 02:33 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

And then there was the "Iraqi woman" who appeared in Texas to tell Sheehan that she was wrong, that Casey died for "my freedom".

Right. The freedom to pick her size of chador before going out in public.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 16 August 2005 02:34 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Yes, that would be them.

Then, obviously, they are not the "real power."


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 August 2005 02:37 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The electorate? Really? You mean the electorate that placed Bush second in 2000?

So you think, Magoo, all those oil industy mandarins who surround Bush including Cheney don't have any pull? You think Bush makes all the decisions himself between his naps and meals and photo ops? You think that Bush who didn't even know where Iraq is, masterminded and pushed through the policy that now has America bogged down in war? You think Bush is the brains and leadership behind PNAC and its implementation in US policy?

And what do Free Masons or Israelis have to do with any of this (although I am sure they are grateful you don't hold them responsible)?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 August 2005 02:40 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then I guess the president is. Although I continue to maintain, as I wrote, that if only as many voters had voted Bush as voted Nader, Bush would be at home right now watching The Price Is Right and choking on those dry little donuts.

Similarly, if the electorate had wanted Nader in power, it could have given him 80% of the popular vote and that would have been that.

Anyway, Grieving Mom seems to feel the real power is The Jews. Can we at least agree that that's a bunch of horse dookie? Or is the jury still out on that one?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 August 2005 02:54 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Grieving Mom seems to feel the real power is The Jews.

Really? Where did she say that?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 16 August 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice smear, Magoo.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 August 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Really? Where did she say that?

In her assertion that the "real" reason for the war in Iraq is for the benefit of Israel.

quote:
Nice smear, Magoo.

Oh I'm at best the assist on this play. As soon as you go near the whole "Jews run the world" theory, you smear yourself.

Ask Kalle Lasn.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 16 August 2005 04:22 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the only person to bring up the "Jews run the world" crap was you Magoo. So you're the one smearing yourself. And, as I said above, saying that the war was fought in part at behest of the Israeli government is by no means an outlandish assertion.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 16 August 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This mother is protesting Bush's criminal war. She lost her son, and he can't be bothered to look out the window at her.

Too bad she didn't contribute to his election campaign; he ALWAYS has time to see those that make THAT sacrifice.

Anyway, it matters very little to me that she may overemphasize Israel's contribution to the war, and underestimate that of Haliburton.

Parsing her thoughts is just a way to try to discredit her. I don't believe she is a Nazi or an anti-semite; and I think her question: "What did my son die for?" is one that Bush has yet to answer.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 16 August 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They may benefit from his decisions, but I don't see how that makes them the string-pullers.

Classic. Campaign finance reform - who needs it? Money obviously has no effect whatsoever on the political process.

Sometimes you really live up to your moniker.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 August 2005 05:35 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As the cartoon character who's too nearsighted to see conspiracies? Mea culpa.

quote:
I think the only person to bring up the "Jews run the world" crap was you Magoo.

True, technically. She only insisted that her son "died for Israel", and that the war in Iraq is for Israel's benefit. Reading between the lines, I took that to mean that the U.S. is at war in Iraq at Israel's behest. I suppose it's possible that she believes the U.S. is just doing it so Israel will owe them one or something.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 16 August 2005 05:48 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Magoo, see this thread about AIPAC, a pro-Israeli lobby group and the Bushies, etc.

[ 16 August 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 16 August 2005 06:12 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's not a conspiracy if it's done out in the open.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yst
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9749

posted 16 August 2005 11:40 PM      Profile for Yst     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The latest news is that some pickup truck driver drove over the memorial they'd set up. The punchline is that one of the crosses he ran over lodged in his tire and burst his tube, stopping him in his tracks and leading to his subsequent arrest.
From: State of Genderfuck | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 17 August 2005 12:39 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Iconoclast daily update. One of Bush's neighbours offered to let Sheehan and friends stay on his land:
quote:
..."A kind gentleman from down the road offered us the use of his property. It's right by the barricade. He offered it because he heard about the shots fired. He didn't think that was right. He happens to be the third cousin of the person that fired the shots and so he came down and he said he supports us 100 percent. He offered us his land. We are in the middle of making that happen. We will be moving within the next few days and we are not being forced to move...
Also various photos, showing some of the crosses that were run over; and a great poster:
quote:
Why does the media scrutinize the grieving mother and ignore the President's lies?

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 17 August 2005 01:26 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interestingly, the "letter" now appears to be fraudulent. Apparently, someone posted it on a right-wing website, and it was repeated everywhere.

Cindy Sheehan says she never wrote it, and would never say it.

quote:
Cooper: you were also quoted as saying, "my son joined the army to protect america, not israel. you get america out of iraq and israel out of palestine and you'll stop the terrorism." how responsible do you believe israel is for the amount of terrorism in the world?

sheehan: i didn't say that.

cooper: you didn't say that? ok

sheehan: i didn't -- i didn't say -- i didn't say that my son died for israel. i've never said that. i saw somebody wrote that and it wasn't my words. those aren't even words that i would say.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3449870/


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8953

posted 18 August 2005 03:42 AM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, it's amazing how fast we all accepted as fact that she had said that. That slug david duke even came to her defense after his slug ears heard the words Israel and Not in the same sentence, based on those lies. Oh, these rightys are getting desperate, what next. I'm afraid to think of the possibilities.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 18 August 2005 02:00 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Magoo--anything to say about that? You were happy enough to say unpleasant things about her--any plans to retract? Possibly even to say something a tiny bit sarcastic about fraud artists who spread libel about their political opponents?

. . .

. . .


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 18 August 2005 02:12 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You were happy enough to say unpleasant things about her--any plans to retract?

Not specifically. I'll happily make them conditional though. If she said her son died for Israel, or something functionally the same, then my comments stand, and if she didn't then I politely stand corrected.

But I'm not about to go into damage control mode simply because someone denies saying something. I actually thought about this last night when I read:
"Wow, it's amazing how fast we all accepted as fact that she had said that."

I don't want it to be just as amazing how fast we accept that she didn't just because she denies it. Don't people ever deny embarrassing things?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 18 August 2005 02:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's all fine and dandy. But tell me something, Magoo, do you associate all Jews with Israel? So, if I said, for example, "I believe Israel is wrong to occupy the West Bank", you would interpret that to mean "I believe Jews are wrong to occupy the West Bank"?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 18 August 2005 05:20 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't want it to be just as amazing how fast we accept that she didn't just because she denies it. Don't people ever deny embarrassing things?

So we have her saying "I never said that, and I don't believe it" on TV. But that's not good enough for you because Christopher Hitchens says he has a fax of an email from a third party saying "I sent this for you Cindy" to prove it?

No wonder Rove keeps pulling this shit. It still works like a charm.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 18 August 2005 05:47 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But tell me something, Magoo, do you associate all Jews with Israel?

Not formally. But the two are often interchanged, and I do believe that many people say "Israel" when they really mean "Jews". Maybe not all Jews, but Jews.

quote:
So we have her saying "I never said that, and I don't believe it" on TV. But that's not good enough for you because Christopher Hitchens says he has a fax of an email from a third party saying "I sent this for you Cindy" to prove it?

I didn't say a thing about Christopher Hitchens, nor the rest. All I did was note that people sometimes deny things when those things are embarrassing or inconvenient to them.

It may be possbile that she said no such thing and it's all a smear job.

It may be possible that she said it, or something close enough to it, and now that it's caused a flap she wants to distance herself from it.

I don't really have the necessary info at my fingertips to say which is the case.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
MyNameisLeo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10172

posted 18 August 2005 06:14 PM      Profile for MyNameisLeo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:
[QB]Here's a link

Reading the comments posted on this link make me profoundly depressed. That's not a reason not to read them I know but OMG is the world really as ugly as it seems sometimes?


From: SWBC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 18 August 2005 06:37 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think this is an interesting piece.

quote:
Someone Tell the President the War Is Over
By Frank Rich

LIKE the Japanese soldier marooned on an island for years after V-J Day, President Bush may be the last person in the country to learn that for Americans, if not Iraqis, the war in Iraq is over. "We will stay the course," he insistently tells us from his Texas ranch. What do you mean we, white man?

A president can't stay the course when his own citizens (let alone his own allies) won't stay with him. The approval rate for Mr. Bush's handling of Iraq plunged to 34 percent in last weekend's Newsweek poll - a match for the 32 percent that approved L.B.J.'s handling of Vietnam in early March 1968. (The two presidents' overall approval ratings have also converged: 41 percent for Johnson then, 42 percent for Bush now.) On March 31, 1968, as L.B.J.'s ratings plummeted further, he announced he wouldn't seek re-election, commencing our long extrication from that quagmire.

But our current Texas president has even outdone his predecessor; Mr. Bush has lost not only the country but also his army. Neither bonuses nor fudged standards nor the faking of high school diplomas has solved the recruitment shortfall....

A Bush loyalist, Senator George Allen of Virginia, instructed the president to meet with Cindy Sheehan, the mother camping out in Crawford, as "a matter of courtesy and decency." Or, to translate his Washingtonese, as a matter of politics. Only someone as adrift from reality as Mr. Bush would need to be told that a vacationing president can't win a standoff with a grief-stricken parent commandeering TV cameras and the blogosphere 24/7....

WHAT lies ahead now in Iraq instead is not victory, which Mr. Bush has never clearly defined anyway, but an exit (or triage) strategy that may echo Johnson's March 1968 plan for retreat from Vietnam: some kind of negotiations (in this case, with Sunni elements of the insurgency), followed by more inflated claims about the readiness of the local troops-in-training, whom we'll then throw to the wolves. ...



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/opinion/14rich.html?incamp=article_popular&pagewanted=all

Subscription. You can use:
User: babblers8
PW: audrarules

quote:
Vigils to support Sheehan protest.

More than 1,000 anti-war vigils have been held around the United States in support of a bereaved mother protesting outside President Bush's Texas ranch. ....

In Crawford, several hundred people lit candles and gathered around a wooden flag-draped coffin at the camp, situated about a mile from Mr Bush's ranch, to remember the dead.....



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4160032.stm


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
dramaman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5586

posted 18 August 2005 06:52 PM      Profile for dramaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
VanLuke -

The comments about the similarities to Vietnam would be dismissed on Con sites....

But it IS getting clearer all the time.

I'm old enough to remember the chants from the 60's - like

"LBJ, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"

Soon will come one about Bush, IMO.


From: SW Ontario | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5620

posted 18 August 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

I didn't say a thing about Christopher Hitchens, nor the rest. All I did was note that people sometimes deny things when those things are embarrassing or inconvenient to them.

It may be possbile that she said no such thing and it's all a smear job.

It may be possible that she said it, or something close enough to it, and now that it's caused a flap she wants to distance herself from it.

I don't really have the necessary info at my fingertips to say which is the case.


I heard somewhere that Mr. Magoo believes kittens should all be put to death. I've never heard him deny this. Even if he did, however, that doesn't mean he didn't say that, or doesn't believe it. Of course he would deny that, publicly at least. I simply don't have the information to prove whether or not Magoo advocates the mass murder of kittens. Either option, that he does or doesn't, is equally likely.

So how about it, Magoo. Why do you hate cute furry kittens so much?


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 18 August 2005 07:45 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While Bush has been on vacation, so far 60 US soldiers have died in Iraq.

1862 US soldiers have now died there since the invasion, 1725 of those since President Bush stood on an aircraft carrier and announced that "the mission is accomplished".

The US refuses to count Iraqs who died during the war. That way, they can claim that any other count is speculative.

But independent bodies estimate 25,000 or more.

That's too depressing for a chant.

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 18 August 2005 08:13 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by dramaman:
VanLuke -

The comments about the similarities to Vietnam would be dismissed on Con sites....

But it IS getting clearer all the time.

I'm old enough to remember the chants from the 60's - like

"LBJ, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"

Soon will come one about Bush, IMO.


The very first demo I went to was an anti Vietnam war demo a fellow student took me to. It was 1968 and I was already 26 years old. (Some got started a bit later than others)

It changed me.

The slogan I remember most is:

One two three four
We don't want your fu**ing war
Five six seven eight
Nothing to negotiate.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 18 August 2005 08:15 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually it was 1973 and I was almost 31. Just looked at an old student newspaper about it. (I'm a high school dropout who started his studies at the age of 26)

[ 18 August 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 18 August 2005 08:48 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by VanLuke:
[quoting]Vigils to support Sheehan protest.
More than 1,000 anti-war vigils have been held around the United States in support of a bereaved mother protesting outside President Bush's Texas ranch. ....

A vigil in solidarity with Sheehan will be held this Saturday in Toronto at the US Consulate, 5:00pm to 6:00pm, 360 University Avenue, organized by the Toronto Coalition to Stop the War and the War Resisters Support Campaign.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 18 August 2005 11:01 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you know if there is one in Vancouver?

edited to add:

Silly me I could have just googled it instead of asking you and did after posting. It doesn't seem there is.

http://tinyurl.com/c8u6z

[ 18 August 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 19 August 2005 12:54 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Protester Sheehan to leave Texas

A bereaved mother who has been protesting outside President Bush's Texas ranch has said she is leaving because her mother has had a stroke. ...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4164744.stm


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 19 August 2005 02:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Oh I'm at best the assist on this play. As soon as you go near the whole "Jews run the world" theory, you smear yourself.

Ask Kalle Lasn.


This is vintage Magoo.

Take someone's statement, twist it into a meaning unintended by that person, extrapolate the twist into something ludicrously hyperbolic, and then convince yourself you've made an argument.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 August 2005 09:32 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm very sorry to hear about Cindy Sheehan's mother.

And maybe we need a moderator here to say explicitly that equating criticism of Israel or of U.S. relations with Israel with anti-semitism is an offence on babble.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 19 August 2005 11:18 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

This is vintage Magoo.

Take someone's statement, twist it into a meaning unintended by that person, extrapolate the twist into something ludicrously hyperbolic, and then convince yourself you've made an argument.


So true!


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 19 August 2005 11:18 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Readers of The Statesman Journal share their views in an online poll Aug 18 on Cindy Sheehan’s vigil. Here's a small selection starting at the beginning of a very long thread, of which I read about half. (Warning: Some are real redneck; oh the joys of 'balanced reporting'. I read only about half the comments; it gets too repetetive):

quote:
...Cindy Sheehan is finally saying what gutless Democratic Senators and Congressmen (and, indeed, all Americans) should be saying--this war is wrong! This administration is still telling us the war is "noble and just". Every American should join Cindy Sheehan in protest against this unjust war.
David F., 68, retired teacher, Salem

...How is the Iraq war necessary? Freedom for the them? The facts were never there to support the war. The war was mismanaged. The government only hoped that the Iraqui people would welcome us. No plan for the peace has been proven. Support our troops, bring them home!
Jim, 58, CPA, Scottsdale, AZ

Of course it's an appropriate form of protest. I don't even understand the "pawn of liberal groups" reference--sounds like the red-baiting tactics from the 1950s, although now "liberal" substitutes for "communist." She went to Texas to ask for an answer that we all deserve and that has not been forthcoming from this administration. If Bush had had the courage to answer her question honestly, this might have died down. Well, maybe not--it would have been replaced by public outrage that our young men and women are dying for some neocon agenda that has nothing to do with fighting terrorism....
Cathy, 55, Teacher, Canby

I respect her courage and stamina. She has every right to request a second meeting because she, and the rest of us were led unto false pretenses into this war and she didn't know it in when she met with him the first time. One very important thing to remember, however, she has the power on her side and she knows it. President Bush is not known for his courage and his cowardly side is beginning to show. ...
Devin Forbes, 45, Attorney, Lake Oswego

... We'll be paying for this, in dollars and in blood, for a long, long time to come. Not to mention the pangs of conscience that our citizens must face, at allowing ourselves to be bamboozled into this by the likes of Dubyah.
Ernest, 62, Retired, Salem

I was at the vigel in Salem last night, and was surprised to be talking to a soldier, who was in perfect agreement with what Cindy was doing.....
Lyle V Sansom, 68, retired, independence

The lies that made this war would have made Goebbles, Himmler, Goering and Hitler proud of their lasting legacy.At some point, one has to look at the long string of the facts behind this war. Enough is enough! I'll be there, with Cindy and half the country, as long as it takes.
Chuck Wynns, 49, educator, Salem

I agree with Cindy Sheehan 100% percent and more. In fact, I was there at the Capitol last night. I'll be there again and again. This war is about empire and who can get the most oil. I don't believe in empire building.
Joan, 55, Office Worker, Salem

... The Irag war certainly does suit the Neo-Conservatives, manifesto of world domintation.
Ralph Jull, 68, Retired, Salem

The war in Iraq is tragically wrong. Lost lives, whomever, can never be replaced. It is enflaming the winds of terrorism around the world. Its financial cost will be a burden for our future generations. The political situation in in Iraq is only getting worse. Our military presence around the world and its flexibility is dangerously strained. ... We must now work harder with other countries to prevent poverty and to abolish the resources that individuals use to build terror networks any where in the world. Specific individuals involved in terrorism should be stopped through international economic and police enforcement, not war. The exercise of debate through free speech is our right and responsibility. It’s time to ask the hard questions Cindy has brought to our national attention.
Bill MacMorris-Adix, 50, Social Worker, Salem

I think Cindy Sheehan's vigil is Great, because I think the same way. If this is a holy war then Bush should send his kids to the war and then I think he would be in the same vote. I don't agree with the war one bit I think they are done and should be looking for the people that bomb the world trade center first. In Iraq they already have their man and need to let them fight for them selfs. And let our troops live their lives at home while they have a chance.
Christina Miller, 29, Stay at home mom, keizer

I can't believe everyone on here is referencing 9/11. To do so is to spit in the face of those who lost friends and family there. Our mission in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. The independent 9/11 commission found no link between Iraq and 9/11. ...
Jeff, 25, Marketing, Portland


Maybe the end is in sight after all this killing and suffering of Iraqis, Americans (and other soldiers and their loved ones) as well as the terrible destruction "the brave ones" have wreaked on a defenseless country. But GWB can't run again anyway and the neocons had it their way (at least a good part of it). For A New American Century was written years before 9/11 and includes Cheney's signature.

Troops out of Iraq now!


P.S. The woman who did Le Point on Radio Canada last night did a long interview with a lady present near Crawford and she asked a question, which I found disgusting. She asked if the protesters weren't playing into the hands of "the left", or something to this extent.

I don't know your name lady (not that she reads this but I have to get it out) , but last time I looked North America was still (falsely) considered a democracy (false in the sense of 'demos', i.e. 'the people' ruling). You made it sound odious the way you used 'the left'. I guess you would have been an admirer of McCarthy but remember Quebec and the ROC is not part of the American empire and your salary is paid for by Canadians.

edited to add:
Sorry I forgot to copy the url. I had found it on Google News and now it's gone and the site is a subscription site.
But you can be sure I didn't write all these though I admit of quoting only those I agrre with.

[ 19 August 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 19 August 2005 12:58 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The spot I saw where ms sheehan spoke about israel is her email to the NBC show she appeared on asking for a apology.

Is she now saying that was faked and never came from her?


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 19 August 2005 01:48 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She's saying that someone doctored her e-mail and sent it to further their own agenda.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 August 2005 03:31 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do believe that many people say "Israel" when they really mean "Jews". Maybe not all Jews, but Jews.

Which people? You took Israeli to mean "Jews", didn't you? Would you be one of those people?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 19 August 2005 03:44 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
She's saying that someone doctored her e-mail and sent it to further their own agenda.

I think she's saying she never wrote that email at all ... also from the CNN interview, at the end of the interview Anderson Cooper said that they asked the supposed original recepient of the EMail rumour (NBC I believe) if they could forward a copy of the original email to them or otherwise confirm the email ... NBC (or whomever it was) at least at the time of the airing of the interview said they were unable to find the email in question.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 19 August 2005 04:03 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Which people? You took Israeli to mean "Jews", didn't you? Would you be one of those people?

I'm not sure of the hair you're splitting.

If you could just take the camouflage off the trap, I'll either be a sport and put my leg in it for you or I won't.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 August 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are a good sport and my attention span is really short so to hell with it. It's Friday. What kind of shooter is a Hair Splitter, anyway?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 19 August 2005 04:30 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, for sure it would be something fussy, like a Pousse Cafe.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 19 August 2005 04:38 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Well, for sure it would be something fussy, like a Pousse Cafe.
When I worked as a bartender, this was our favourite drink to make - it's fun to do, and loooks soo cool - for added effect, dribble a little brandy on top, and flame it (but let it go out and cool down before sipping). We also did things with using straws to get little blobs of creme liquors hanging suspended in clear liquors ... silly excuses to inebriate people.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
gopi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6163

posted 19 August 2005 05:39 PM      Profile for gopi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Soon will come one about Bush, IMO.

I can think of several anti-Bush chants that date back to the protest that greeted his inaugeration, and have surfaced at every protest march I have attended since then, my favorite being:

George Bush we know you
Your father was a killer too.


From: transient | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3322

posted 19 August 2005 06:52 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Draft your daugthers
Jen and Barbie
Send them to Iraq to Party

I made that one up.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 19 August 2005 10:49 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...Those opposed to President Bush's policy in Iraq have been painted as unpatriotic, and criticised for "letting our boys down". But the protestors here say they are the true patriots - it's an issue that's starting to polarise American opinion. ... whatever happens, she's already helped the anti-war voice to be heard louder than it was before.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4167952.stm


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Yst
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9749

posted 19 August 2005 11:11 PM      Profile for Yst     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by VanLuke:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4167952.stm


Yeah, it's funny, it's always seemed to me the best reasons for opposition to the War in Iraq, from an American perspective, were really quite selfish ones. That is to say, even if the destruction of Hussein's regime and the democratisation of Iraq is ultimately beneficial to Iraq, it will have been almost indisputably detrimental to American interests, serving as the basis for a new generation of anti-American rhetoric and anti-American militarisation abroad, costing the American government vast sums of money and costing the American military a great number of lives, and leading (or so most pundits now predict) to a resurgence in Khomeinist theocratic thought in a formerly secular region of the middle east.

From an Anti-American point of view, I can see arguments for the war being good or bad. Shia fundamentalists and Sunni radicals both gain something in the larger Machiavellian picture, over the last couple years.

But inward-looking patriotic Americans? I think they're the only ones who gain absolutely nothing in this equation.


From: State of Genderfuck | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 20 August 2005 12:22 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On the other hand Chomsky wrote (contrary to what most people believe) that the USA *won* the Vietnam war because no other south eastern Asian country has risen agaisnt the Yankees.

I always find Chomsky very interesting but I don't know if I agree with this.

It's food for thought though but getting back to Iraq and the neo-cons' vision of the Middle East I'm not so sure if the Yankees really are losing, Even if they have to withdraw. Iraq is a lot less powerful (for better or worse) than it was under Saddam and if the Yankees really pull out soon (I doubt it) full scale civil war could easily break out. Lots of people warned about this before the war and sometimes I wonder if to provoke such a horrible scenario wasn't Plan 2 (or 3, or 4) of the Pentagon planners, Plan 1 being a permanent military base in Iraq thus possibly being able to pull their troops out of Saudi Arabia and other Arab Gulf states.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 20 August 2005 12:22 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From an opinion piece in The People's Daily:

quote:
...American organizations, governmental, non-governmental or the media, had all been flinching from mentioning the Iraqi War and the Vietnam War in the same breath. But now, more and more people begin to put the two together. In a CNN interview, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said he feels "very uneasy", because factors which once ruined public support during the Vietnam War now have appeared in the Iraqi War. ...In his article, retired lieutenant colonel George Wallace criticized by saying that the top mission of the wide spread US military power is global projection, instead of protecting their country and people. Despite our ability to create giant wealth and our possession of unprecedented military power, he said, it is impossible for us to keep a global empire....

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200508/18/eng20050818_203316.html


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 20 August 2005 12:40 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ms Sheehan's blog is here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cindy-sheehan/memo-to-drudge-et-al-it_b_5868.html


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
dramaman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5586

posted 20 August 2005 01:33 AM      Profile for dramaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"George Bush we know you
Your father was a killer too."

Mmmm hmmm.

Thanks.

How many deaths will it take, until people start buying into the truth?

There are so many parallels.....


From: SW Ontario | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 20 August 2005 09:48 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A view from a Texas newspaper:

quote:
... After the nearly hour-long prayer vigil, about 30 ordained and lay clergy took a letter to state troopers and U.S. Secret Service agents manning a blockade down the road from President Bush's Central Texas ranch.

The group was informed that no one was available to accept the letter, which called on the president to bring the troops home from Iraq. The clergy members then placed the letter and sprigs of carnations on the ground at the feet of a state trooper.

“I think if we wrote a letter (that said), ‘We support Bush,' 100 percent, we would be inside,” said Juan Torres, whose son, Army Spc. John Torres, was killed on a U.S. base in Afghanistan under questionable circumstances. “I don't think the president really cares about my life and the other families who are losing their kids in this war.” ....

Ann Wright, a U.S. diplomat who resigned her post in 2003 to protest the Iraq war... said the demonstrators will spend the weekend in internal meetings to determine strategy in the waning days of the vigil. Sheehan had vowed to stay until Aug. 31, or until the president agreed to meet with her. Other people who have lost family members to the Iraq war will continue the vigil, camp organizers have said...

The vigil has continued to draw people to Crawford, even with Sheehan's absence....

Earlier in the day, about 50 people from Oklahoma and Georgia arrived near the gates of Bush's ranch and dropped off 32 white bed sheets signed with names and messages of support for the president. A White House staffer accepted the sheets, which were tied with yellow ribbons....


http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/news/stories/2005/08/20/20050820wacsheehan.html


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 20 August 2005 11:15 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know most of the facts, if not all, in the snippets about the Vietnam War are known to Babblers but thought it useful to include them in part for the links the BBC has on those pages. (Just where was Google when I wrote my thesis? What a machine! It never ceases to amaze me.)

quote:
..."I want to know what the noble cause is that my son died for like (Bush) always says," Mrs Sheehan said. "Because I don’t believe dying in a war of aggression on a country that’s no threat to the United States of America is a noble cause."...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1742071,00.html

quote:
... President Bush has not [yet?] experienced the kind of massive anti-war demonstrations that contributed to the political demise of Presidents Johnson and Nixon....Sheehan told reporters: "He said my son died in a noble cause, and I want to ask him what that noble cause is."

I remember first hearing the phrase "noble cause" in the 1980s when President Reagan referred to the Vietnam War in those terms, apparently trying to erase the bad memories of that unpopular conflict that divided the country....

Sheehan's subdued protest has been is in dramatic contrast with the massive demonstrations against the Vietnam War. President Johnson and his family could not avoid hearing the devastating chant of protesters: "Hey, hey, LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?"...


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/237161_hthomas17.html

quote:
... Teach-ins and student organizations like the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) held rallies and marches, the first of which happened in Washington in April of 1965. Over the next 2 years the anti-war movement snow balled....

By 1967 America was mired in its own urban problems. As the bombings and body count in Vietnam continued to escalate so did civil unrest. 100,000 Anti-war protesters gathered in New York and thousands more in San Francisco. There were urban riots in Detroit. Johnson’s support was falling drastically on all fronts. Anti-war rallies, speeches, demonstrations and concerts continued being organized all over the country....the Anti-war movement left an everlasting mark on an entire generation and its country.


http://ohoh.essortment.com/vietnamwarprot_rlcz.htm

This site includes a pretty good, concise history of Vietnam.

quote:
...The period that Americans refer to as the "Vietnam War" and the Vietnamese call the "American War" was the US military intervention from 1965 to 1973....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/asia_pac/05/vietnam_war/html/introduction.stm

quote:
...By 1965, as the US began to escalate its military presence in Vietnam, the folk protest movement began to shift its focus [from the struggle for civil and human rights for African Americans], with singers like Joan Baez joining in the protest. And within a few years the protest movement was gathering steam on US campuses, with the March on Washington (in conscious imitation of the 1963 civil rights march) and the Pentagon in 1967....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4498011.stm

quote:
...Political support for President Johnson waned. In March he halted bombing, called for peace talks and said he would not run for a second term in elections in November 1968....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/asia_pac/05/vietnam_war/html/turning_point.stm

quote:
...Protests against the draft began on October 15, 1965 when the student-run National Coordinating Committee to End the War in Vietnam staged the first public burning of a draft card in the United States....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war#Opposition_to_the_war

It took 8 years but it was a different time with substantially different attitudes in 'mainstream' society and no internet.

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war

quote:
... By early 1971 surveys of American opinion indicated that voter support for Nixon and his presidency was soft and that his continuance of the war was a factor. .... His credibility score was down, and the public's assessment of his handling of the war was at its lowest level since the beginning of his presidency. The citizenry was also becoming more dovish, or, if not that, exhausted by the war. ....

Public opinion polls in the United States indicate that in early 1968 the citizenry was uneasy about the war and growing more weary of it, with a majority turning against its continued prosecution and favoring gradual withdrawal, Vietnamization, negotiations with the enemy, and a bombing pause....

Nixon and Kissinger blamed the antiwar movement, liberal intellectuals, the press [Republican arguments haven't changed much, have they?], and Congress for opposing their policies, encouraging the enemy, prolonging the war, and ultimately causing the collapse of South Vietnam. Their public defense of their policies rested on the argument that additional military force would have turned things around. But this argument conveniently omitted consideration of those analyses within the Johnson and Nixon administrations at the time that the use of even greater force than what was already being applied would have triggered Soviet and/or Chinese entry into the war, probably would have failed, and would have overtaxed America's military and economic resources, further damaging the economy, undermining America's global military posture, and provoking political rebellion among mainstream, fence-sitting voters....


http://hnn.us/articles/4610.html

Do we hear echos of this today? Certainly cracks have begun to show even among Republicans, some of whom might worry about their chances for re-election. I think we're seeing the beginning of the end of this murderous enterprise but on the other hand the situation in the Iraq of today is substantially different and as I wrote above the neo-cons vision expressed in
A New American Centuryhas already been realised in part.

For a neo-con view concerning bringing home the troops see:

quote:
... Although the Pentagon is surely accurate in saying that no final determination to reduce troop levels has been made, it is almost certainly the case that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has been pressuring the military to do precisely that. Indeed, we have also heard that the secretary has told his new Afghan commander, Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry, to try to get U.S. forces substantially out of Afghanistan within two years.

The reason is obvious. As the British memo goes on to say, the U.S. military wants reductions “to bring relief to overall U.S. commitment levels.” And there is no question that American forces are stretched thin.* Having rejected any idea of significantly expanding the size of American ground forces, the Rumsfeld-led Pentagon is on the verge of breaking the backs of the National Guard and the active duty Army. Moreover, there is no question that the U.S. is ill prepared for another serious crisis that might require the use of American military forces....


http://www.newamericancentury.org/troops-20050713.htm

Some of them want to increase US troop levels. Do they not read the papers and get all their news from Fox? They don't seem to have noticed that the US military forces can't find enough people willing to put their lives on the line in spite of all the fiddling with minimum requirements like a high school leaving certificate and the propaganda the war mongers are pouring out. They surely aren't dreaming of bringing back the draft but, as Paul Krugman pointed out quite some time ago, that's the only way they could realise their goals.

quote:
... There is abundant evidence that the demands of the ongoing missions in the greater Middle East, along with our continuing defense and alliance commitments elsewhere in the world, are close to exhausting current U.S. ground forces. For example, just late last month, Lieutenant General James Helmly, chief of the Army Reserve, reported that "overuse" in Iraq and Afghanistan could be leading to a "broken force." Yet after almost two years in Iraq and almost three years in Afghanistan, it should be evident that our engagement in the greater Middle East is truly, in Condoleezza Rice's term, a "generational commitment." The only way to fulfill the military aspect of this commitment is by increasing the size of the force available to our civilian leadership....

http://www.newamericancentury.org/defense-20050128.htm

Troops Out Now!

[ 20 August 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 20 August 2005 05:50 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dubya must start to feel a bit despearate since he's peddling the same old, discredited lies.

quote:
Bush invokes Sept 11 to defend Iraq war
... "Our troops know that they're fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere to protect their fellow Americans from a savage enemy," Bush said in his weekly radio address.

"They know that if we do not confront these evil men abroad, we will have to face them one day in our own cities and streets, and they know that the safety and security of every American is at stake in this war," he said."We're fighting the terrorists in Afghanistan, Iraq, and around the world, striking them in foreign lands before they can attack us here at home," he said...


http://tinyurl.com/97mjh

If so, it's the terrorists the invasion created. In any case almost everyvbody knows that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

It seems they are also instrumental in creating yet another Islamic republic. They don't learn anything, do they?

quote:
U.S. concedes ground to Islamists on Iraqi law

.."We understand the Americans have sided with the Shi'ites," he said. "It's shocking. It doesn't fit American values. They have spent so much blood and money here, only to back the creation of an Islamist state ... I can't believe that's what the Americans really want or what the American people want."


http://tinyurl.com/87sbk

[ 20 August 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 20 August 2005 06:48 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really long.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca