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Author Topic: Chapter's and Abled Employees
kuba walda
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posted 24 April 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This just ticks my right off.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/04/24/chapters_030424

quote:
CALGARY - A Chapters store in Calgary has rehired a man with Down syndrome after the company had said his $36-a-week salary was adversely affecting their bottom line.


The kid was working below minimum wage for Christ sakes!!!!!!!!!!

If I didn't already boycott Chapter's because I support my local book sellers I would now.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 24 April 2003 04:53 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yup, quite the PR blunder for Chapter's. They've reinstated him and bumped his salary up to the Alberta minimum wage. Which at $5.90 per hour is still scandalously low, but that's for another thread.

Praise be, I live in a neighbourhood with good independent bookstores, 'stead of Chapters. Actually it was no accident, but one of the criteria for choosing that neighbourhood.

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 April 2003 05:38 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"I like working there so much," Whiteside said.

Do you want to tell him he works for a bunch of pricks, or shall I?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 05:42 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I dont know the law there but i realize that payment was illegal, was firing him illegal?

If so why would anyone hire anyone with mental dissabilities?


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 24 April 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How come every so often I feel like slapping you Tom.....

slap slap

Take that back very often I feel like slapping you.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 24 April 2003 05:47 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I dont know the law there but i realize that payment was illegal,

Does anyone know the actual law in this matter? I know that the Sask Disabilities Coucil pays WAY less than minimum wage and its a government organisation. I've never understood why they can do this.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LOL, his mother agreed to it. its not like they stiffed himbehind his back. Seems like people should be angry at his mother.

Oh wait, here on Babble we dont preach responsibility.

i might be a cold capitalist but if i must retain the employment of all people who hurt my bottom line then i am screwingover good employees. Oh wait you socialists think everyone, regardless of ability, training, tenure or otherwise should make an equitable amount.

Look here, They actually did something nice. They employed someone against thier better judgement. When their better judgement won out they got yelled at. I suppose now they wont be able to hire that guy who could both do the job and who needed it.


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 24 April 2003 05:54 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
LOL, his mother agreed to it.
Tom, do you mind if we call your mother and try to convince her to sell you into slavery? We could have you making Ralph Nader buttons at a dollar a day.

From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 05:56 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Al, i am saying blame the mother. The store did not want him. The mother sweetened the deal by selling his services for less thant he market value.

Sounds like sound, if ethically questionable, business policy to me.

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Hankerin' Tom ]


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 April 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Legally you can work for less than minimum wage in BC if you sign a contract saying you will work for less than it and you understand what you're doing.

36 bucks a week is killing the bottom line? Christ almighty.

Chapters is a huge megalopolis of a bookstore chain. 36 bucks a week is probably what the CEO blows on expensive wine to bribe his wife to keep her from getting mad when he boffs his mistress.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 24 April 2003 06:01 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
They employed someone against thier better judgement. When their better judgement won out they got yelled at. I suppose now they wont be able to hire that guy who could both do the job and who needed it.

What a dumb thing to say. Who says he couldn't do his job? What better judgement? And it's not like they were making any sort of dent in their profit margin with $36 a week. Jesus.

Since you are obviously unaware, disabled people are incredibly capable of doing many, if not all, of the things "abled" people can do. Often times better. You should go out back and flog yourself.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 06:01 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
36 bucks is a middling wine. In any case are all CEO's immoral bastards?
From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 24 April 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually there are many so called disabled people who do things much better that so called able bodied people. I remember a beautiful story about a girl who could paint and see colour like no able bodied person.... she was autistic.

At the very least I would say that most of the so-called disabled probably have more compassion and sense than you TOM.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 06:12 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kuba, i never said they couldnot work. You are very judgemental, sure you are not a CA operative?

look, the fact reamins. Businesses do not like to take hits. hiring anyone regardless of ability or disability might become a hit. The thing is they can mitigate the damage done by limiting who they hire to those they think are most able to complete the task.

For example, i want a hole dug for a post. i dont hire a man with no arms to dig the hole. Its not that i dont like men without arms it is just that they cannot fullfill the tasks i set before them (post hole digging).

For that same reason i do not expect people to hire me as a surgeon, i amnot capable of doing surgery. Though i might be ok at pushing the crash cart around. I dont want them to hire me out of the goodness of their heart. i realize that that hurts other more able bodied people who can do my task and other tasks i amnot suitable for.

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Hankerin' Tom ]


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 24 April 2003 06:14 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They've got him stacking magazines on shelves! It's not like you need a degree.

quote:
For example, i want a hole dug for a post. i dont hire a man with no arms to dig the hole. Its not that i dont like men without arms it is just that they cannot fullfill the tasks i set before them (post hole digging).


So what exactly about a disabled person makes them unable to stack magazines on shelves? What are they lacking that makes this task so difficult?

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: dale cooper ]


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 April 2003 06:21 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
look, the fact reamins. Businesses do not like to take hits. hiring anyone regardless of ability or disability might become a hit. The thing is they can mitigate the damage done by limiting who they hire to those they think are most able to complete the task.

And the rest of your post was using incorrect examples and generally evading the point.

My response to your quote above is this:

It appears that you think it perfectly acceptable to perpetuate discrimination against people of diminished physical or mental ability.

Never mind that there are plenty of jobs that they can still do.

Stack shelves. Paint walls. Hell, pull on the green chain if they have any left in sawmills here in BC. Mail envelopes. Stick stamps on them.

Whatever.

All it is is being lazy and stupid and cheap when you can't figure out how to tailor a job so a disabled person can do one.

Oh, wait.

I forgot.

We don't even believe in full employment any more.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 24 April 2003 06:30 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We don't even believe in full employment any more.

Have we wanted that since the 1970's? I mean, when you think of all those long-suffering bondholders being ravaged by inflation because some underserving welfare bum wants a job on top of everything else...

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 07:01 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Conway, isnt that pretty much what i said? finda job suited to your abilities. Dont expect people to make jobs to suit your abilities. that takes away liberty. or do you not believe that choices that do no harm equal liberty?
From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 24 April 2003 07:46 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Doc, being much more of a wino than you are (studying Italian immigration and the workers' movement gave me an excellent opportunity to interview a lot of old guys who made their own wine ) I can assure you that your statement:

"36 bucks a week is probably what the CEO blows on expensive wine to bribe his wife to keep her from getting mad when he boffs his mistress."

Is the understatement of the year! If he is buying really expensive wine each bottle would cost more than $36.

As for the subject at hand, sometimes people with an intellectual handicap are BETTER at certain repetitive jobs because they get less distracted than other workers. And they are very proud to be able to work. In any case, Chapters' action was unthinking and cruel.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 24 April 2003 07:47 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You can't please some right wingers. Give disabled people income support ("welfare") and they scream about "their money" being used to support people who are "too lazy" to work. Require companies to hire people and you get accused on infringing on "corporate rights" and forcing them to spend money in order to make their workplace accessible..

So what should we do? Euthanise the disabled?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 08:04 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not one damn current Republican here has ever decried public funds going to aid the disabled. please choose another line of argument. In other words give your straw man a brain.
From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 24 April 2003 08:09 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No where in the article did it say that the kid was incapable of his job. In fact, if indeed he was incapable Chapter's could have made the case that it wasn't working out. AND NOT ONLY THAT HE HAD ALREADY WORKED THERE FOR FIVE COUNTEM' FIVE FRIGGIN' YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I take it the right wing can't read either.

He was probably more competent than some of the laz whiney so called abled folks I have had the displeasure to work with.........


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 24 April 2003 08:19 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Not one damn current Republican here has ever decried public funds going to aid the disabled. please choose another line of argument. In other words give your straw man a brain.

Perhaps not but here in Ontario the amount of money you can get paid under ODSP has been frozen ever since the Tories came to power (meaning, with inflation, the real income of people on ODSP has been falling by several percent a year).


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
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posted 24 April 2003 10:11 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Not one damn current Republican here has ever decried public funds going to aid the disabled.

Of course they're not going to "decry" it in public; they don't want to appear to be coldhearted bastards. It's not like they're going to make a campaign speech saying,"Vote for me and I'll really stick it to those no-good disabled freaks."

But I'd be surprised if none of the current Republicans have ever voted to cut or freeze funding for programs that help the disabled.

P.S. You really have to get out of the habit of assuming that when we mention the term "right wingers," we're only referring to elected Republican Party politicians.

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Andy Social ]


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Hankerin' Tom
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posted 24 April 2003 10:37 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LOL, andy, if it isnt said in public how can anyone assert is is said at all?

Kuba, he may well be very capable.
I suppose my main beef is witht he article. Why was he fired? Ostensibley because he was hurting thier bottom line. well at 12 hours a week, stacking books and magazines for 3 bucks an hour he was makignonly 36 bucks a week. it woudl have saved their bottom line by eliminating a normally paid employee. One wonders if it was inddeed the 36 bucks aweek it was costing Chapters or if it was something else. Perhaps man hours were lost when people had to clean up his mistakes, perhaps we was not a good employee. I am not condemning all disabled people as lazy or incapable of haviagn good work ethic. Perhaps this one did not.

i am also speaking toa mroe general issue. My fiancee works with autistic children. many of these kids could not hold jobs at the current level of autistic behavior they display. Does this mean they are unemployable? certainly not. Does this mean they are capable of any job? well, no, fo course not. Once hired can they then be fired? why not? they are no different than any other employee. Cost of employment is not just figured in wages, but also in benefits, in efficiency, in value broguht to the job.

Now i can't find any other news on this subject ( only two articles, both from CBC) but i do wonder the actual reason (which, as we all know is often quite different fromteh stated reason) for letting Stephen Whiteside go.

If it truly was to protect the bottom-line then someone needs to replace the manager of that Chapters store. If there was a better reason then that needs to be investigated.

We cant let our emotions run our lives people. There are reasons for everything, in this case it might be a very bad reason. But we must think before we judge.
i am just as guilty of this as anyone else, maybe more so. I judged what Senator Rick Santorum said before i even read the trascript of what he said. now i regret my earlier unfounded comments.
We need more information to make a decent balanced judgement in this case.


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Weltschmerz
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posted 25 April 2003 08:09 AM      Profile for Weltschmerz     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually he was probably fired because he had been there for five years. My wife was managing a Book Company store when Coles and Smithbooks first merged into Chapters. She was told by her new regional manager that she should consider firing anyone who had been doing the same job for five years, because they obviously didn't have the drive and ambition that Chapters was looking for. Never mind that they might have been good at their job and enjoyed it.

Cheers,


From: Trana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 25 April 2003 09:11 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A few things to note. Whiteside wasn't fired for poor work performance, so this wasn't an issue.

I do believe Chapters is run by a woman (name escapes me) who's husband owns both Chapters and Indigo. But I could be wrong.

Chapters is the book store we all love to hate, and hope never to run into another "babbler" when we're in there buying a book or magazine you can't get off the shelf at your local independant, or a book at a price you can't get at your local independant.

It's funny.

If Chapters has a severe enough "bottom line" problem that someone at $36.00 a week has to be let go (I suspect the truth is probably what Weltschmerz alluded to) then this company that has a near monopoly and enjoys practices that would be considered restraint of trade in the U.S. is being run by someone even less abled than Whiteside.

But, as in other business' we'll see it eventually file for bankruptcy, and we'll get a great view of what Hankerin' Tom calls responsibility for actions, when we see yet another failed CEO down and out and pan handling on the cold streets of Toronto.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
statica
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posted 25 April 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Oh wait you socialists think everyone, regardless of ability, training, tenure or otherwise should make an equitable
amount.

hey, sign me up for this club, too. i'm all for this devious idea that all people should be able to support themselves on a living wage.

(note: pope squat's demands from last summer "Raise the minimum wage to $10/hour. Restore the
cuts to social assistance." )

heaven forbid people should make enough to be able to buy fresh fruits and veggies .....revolution!


From: t-oront-o | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 25 April 2003 10:09 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah, Chapters. Thank heavens for public (and university) libraries...but there are books that you simply can't get in an independent, it's true. Especially if you're a student and want/need them at discount in a rush (buying from university bookstores is worse than buying them from Chapters--Follett's, anyone?). I'm at a loss to decide whether it's better to be buying these difficult books from Chapters or Amazon. I suppose more common books can be bought from independents.

Chapters is an Evil Empire, but scale has, alas, its benefits.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 25 April 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I do believe Chapters is run by a woman (name escapes me) who's husband owns both Chapters and Indigo. But I could be wrong.

Her name is Heather Riesman (sp). Her husband doesn't own them, she does. He owns Onyx(sp). I think he gave her the start up money. At least that's the story they sell you when you work there.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 25 April 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Any argument that Stephen was let go because of poor performance is pointless because in the article it also says that they let go of the other handicapped worker they had there.

quote:
But we must think before we judge.

Like the way you thought before you judged that this guy was too incompetent to stack books and magazines?? All you have to do is read the article to find out there was no mention anywhere of him being unable to do his job.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 25 April 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Oh wait, here on Babble we dont preach responsibility

trolling = suspension


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 25 April 2003 12:55 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hint mandos

quote:
but there are books that you simply can't get in an independent, it's true.

In Victoria, a city known for flowers and bookstores my local independents are only too happy to order any book for me that they don't have on the shelves. And of course, if you browse the used book stores you find some great titles.

Yes, I may have to wait a few days, I think the most was a week, but to be able to say that I have never set foot in that vile megatropolisbooksweatshop with its vile starbucks makes it well worth it.

kuba, chanting down with chapters


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 25 April 2003 12:57 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In Victoria, a city known for flowers and bookstores my local independents are only too happy to order any book for me that they don't have on the shelves.

No. 2 or 3 on my list of things I miss about Victoria: Munro's. My favourite bookstore in Canada.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 25 April 2003 01:40 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Munro's is awwwwwwwwwwessssssssssomme. I work five doors down. At lunch you can buy a book, get a tea at Murchies, sit outside on the bench and listen to the buskers. (oh and of course read the book)

aaaawwwwwwwwwww summer

[ 25 April 2003: Message edited by: kuba walda ]


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 25 April 2003 01:51 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's all a matter of book delivery times (ie, tomorrow, today if possible!) and discounts on the list price (I used to spend hundreds a year on books...) Now it's all theoretical for me, of course.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 April 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Now it's all theoretical for me, of course.

Hmmmn. Such a sybilline comment, Mandos. Do you mean that you've finished reading everything that everyone else has written and are now writing everything that remains to be written yourself?

Chapters is evil. In its first manifestation, it was super-evil. Now it is just garden-variety evil. In both manifestations, it has helped to destroy Canadian book publishing as well as independent bookstores. And Heather Reisman also bought up (for Indigo) the wonderful Cruikshank's (an old Toronto garden centre and plant mail-order house), then neutered it, and finally buried it.

I have never set foot in a Chapters. I'd open a vein first.

I confess to ordering sometimes from Amazon.ca. They once delivered a book to me overnight. I need delivery. I love overnight. But I do penance, none the less.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 25 April 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
After amazon.ca opened I stopped dealing with Chapters, because amazon.ca's delivery times and prices are actually generally better.

Now I am done with courses for the next few semesters while I write my lesser thesis (the greater one is being saved for later, of course). Consequently, most of what I need is in published literature available through online services (most journals are now available online on a subscription basis--paid by university, usually). Or in books I can get through interlibrary loans. Even if I have to buy a book, I am not rushing to get it in time for the first quiz, so I can now probably scout out independents to order it for me. So the whole Chapters/amazon debate is theoretical.

On the other hand...gift shopping for obscure SF. A lot of smaller bookstores, except for the specialist ones, don't have as much recent SF as Chapters does. Again a matter of scale. I'm not defending them, but scale is scale. When they are offered online on nonevil terms, I will download them directly from the author and forward her/him the profits.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
googlymoogly
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posted 25 April 2003 02:17 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My family and I used to have HUGE problems ordering through Chapters (on the two occasions we tried). This one time a few years back, my parents were looking to get a certain movie from them, one that they could not find anywhere else (this was about a month and a half before Christmas). They said that they would have *no* problem getting it in about 2 weeks. 4 weeks later, still no sign of the video; they gave the old line that it "was coming". My parents didn't cancel the order, instead opting to just wait and see if it came at all.

It didn't; shortly after Christmas that year, they went back to Chapters and asked where the video was, to which Chapters responded that it was out of print. Not so much as a phone call, or even a friggin' coupon for the inconvenience ...
Needless to say, the video wasn't out of print; we ordered it from another store


From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 25 April 2003 02:19 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, that happened to me with a couple of obscure books. Amazon.ca's service is much better. I had to go to *gag* Follett's, the university bookstore monopolist, to get the books in time. And 30% higher price. Gouging, I tell you.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 25 April 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I find the smaller bookstores here in Vanc have just an absolute cartload of SF in their shelves.

It's practically the only way to get Asimov's SF these days, too.

As for Chapters I've been trying to shift my business to Duthie's on 4th, but it's hard to break the habit of just whipping down Broadway and.... you get the idea.

I found amazon.ca to be useless, IMHO. The reason for this is they don't give you a break on the Canadian dollar prices for books compared to the US dollar prices on amazon.com after conversion and in fact in some cases it's cheaper even after shipping to order a book straight from amazon.com.

I try powells.com now for books that have a US focus and which wouldn't normally be sold here. (One such great example is the book that outlines all the corporate welfare that gets porked out in the US)

I also gave up on textbooks from anybody since they're invariably out of stock due to, you guessed it, students feverishly looking for textbooks from anywhere except the school bookstore and in any case there's a company called Kiwibooks.com which is undercutting the uni bookstores, AND they deliver to your house. Nyeehee.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 25 April 2003 02:24 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At my current university, the student's union recently struck a deal with another bookstore to undercut the evil university bookstore.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
googlymoogly
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posted 25 April 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mandos, which uni are you at? They did that here at Carleton. Many profs here at Carleton try to sell their textbooks with one of two independents, either Octopus or Mother Tongue. Apparently those profs have had problems with hte bookstore telling them that certain books are out of print when in fact they are not, and other stuff like that. There's also "haven books", formally named "raven books", which is a student-run used textbook store located off-campus. They had to change their name after a trademark dispute with the university (the university mascot is the raven, and the admin didn't want the bookstore to be seen as being affiliated with the university)
From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 25 April 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I told you, I'd also have to report you to the Special Committee.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 25 April 2003 03:35 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is that like Homeland Security??
From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2279

posted 25 April 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for Alix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah, evil Indigo/Chapters. I worked there for 4 years, I've been gone for 2, and I'm still bitter about some of the shit they pulled while I was there. What an awful, awful place to work.

My partner actually quit by walking out one day. I left a couple of months later (giving notice this time) and by then he hadn't yet found a job. I know I've posted this before, but the prospect of having no jobs, no money and potentially losing our apartment was MUCH less stressful than facing spending one more day in that place.

Yes, I'm still a little bitter. How can you tell?


From: Kingston | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 25 April 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, the gory details, Alix. Give us the gory details.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2279

posted 25 April 2003 04:32 PM      Profile for Alix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just did over here.. Some of it, anyway. The whole story would be a good five-hour rant.

One story I didn't mention over there, though - one day, when I was coming back to work after having been off for a while with mono, one of the managers stopped to ask me how I was, and then promptly, in the middle of the store, in front of all the customers, got screamed at by the general manager for having been "chatting" with me.


From: Kingston | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2926

posted 25 April 2003 04:59 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Hmmmn. Such a sybilline comment, Mandos.

Sibylline, perhaps?

From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 25 April 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So you're not allowed to talk to your co-workers at Chapters? Geez. I knew there was a good reason why I avoid the Chapters-Indigo stores unless I really want something that I can't find anywhere else.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 25 April 2003 06:10 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, so how can we babblers, (mainly) progressive people across Canada and Québec, help the proles working in this snakepit from hell form a UNION?

Often, it is things like not being able to chat with your fellow-workers that pisses people off even more than low pay and few fringe benefits.

How many, if any, Chapters' are unionised at this point?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
redshift
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1675

posted 25 April 2003 06:16 PM      Profile for redshift     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
been tried by both UFCW and I believe by IWW in the states, without much success, they have a very well organized and trained anti-union strike force that swings into action at the slightest "red" menace.
From: cranbrook,bc | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 25 April 2003 06:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hate to say it, and this guy costs a lot of money, but they might want to hire Martin Jay Levitt if they can afford the $200 an hour to marshal him as the general in the war on Chapters. The CAW has pretty big pockets, so that might be a logical union of choice.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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Babbler # 1752

posted 25 April 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
thankfully most English lit courses don't require textbooks. unfortunately Anthro and various language courses do. i was confused enough in my first and second years to actually buy nearly everything and lose a lot of money. but there are a lot of great ways to dodge this:

1) the library, as far as novels and things go.
2) BookFinder.com, especially for used textbooks. it will point you to powells and other neat places if the text is there. yes, delivery sometimes takes a while, but in the meantime you can share with a friend, have recourse to a library copy...or do what i do: buy the text from the Uni store, Chapters, or whatever, keep the receipt and keep the text in good shape, then return it once you've got the book in the mail.
3) most universities have good student-run sites where students are selling their old texts. U of T has two or three. bargaining with a fellow student can be fun and satisfying, and it sure beats the bloody Uni store used text deals.
4) dunno about other Unis, but here at U of T i noticed a used text store temporarily set up just across from the Uni store, apparently unconnected with the latter. they had some great prices. keep your eyes peeled!
5) the photocopier. if you're lucky enough to have access to one (as i was), run to the library and grab the text, or buy it from the bookstore and keep the receipt. then, copy away; takes some time, but saves you a load of cash. double-side and use two-on-one (or even four-on-one) paging. buy two pieces of card, print up a cover on one of them, send it for binding, and voila! cheap-ass textbook! i did three of mine this way.
6) if you have to buy the damn thing, remember that you can resell. and i don't mean the Uni's bloody buyback offers. get on one of those student-run sites i was talking about. or better yet, find out which class is using the text, note the room, get some colourful paper and make a prominent ad for your used texts, with the course name and code in a large font, and cut tearaway strips with your contact info into the bottom. tape it to the door(s) of the classroom, or to the wall(s) nearby it, and post it on bulletin boards in relevant areas. wait for the phone calls/emails. i sold every single one of my unwanted Can Lit books this way last year, for excellent prices. some of my friends have even stood outside the class to sell theirs; this works even better, obviously.

[ 25 April 2003: Message edited by: Mohamad Khan ]


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3285

posted 25 April 2003 07:11 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If so why would anyone hire anyone with mental disabilities?

Look here, They actually did something nice. They employed someone against thier better judgement. When their better judgement won out they got yelled at. I suppose now they wont be able to hire that guy who could both do the job and who needed it.


So I get it then, disabled people dont NEED jobs? Because they are all living such wonderful lives and have all their needs provided for? Is that it? Sometimes HT you even surpass my expectations of the ingorance you are capable of.

Disabled people dont deserve to be paid the same as other people? Yah that flies all right

Disabled people should be grateful for whatever they get? Yah that ones always good too

Disabled people cant expect to have the same salaries, same perks, same life styles that "the other" people have? IMO TH you are severely disabled -- and as an employer I would never hire you. Your potential to do major PR damage to a company is enormous.

There are no words to express the total disgust I feel over your comments.


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 25 April 2003 08:08 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A question to babblers - is "abled" a new euphemism for "disabled" - as in "putting the emphasis on abilities"? I'd never seen or heard the term.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 25 April 2003 08:30 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought that the PC term is "differently abled".

About the $36 a week, it's likely the employee is also receiving a disability pension. On such a pension you're only allowed to earn up to around $200 a month (I'm not sure of the exact figure, could be lower) on top of your pension. Any monies made over that cap reduce your pension amount. All in all he's probably doing as well as any of the other Chapters employees.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Aviator
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3299

posted 26 April 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for Aviator     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes what would happen if disabled people were allowed to earn more than their paltry pensions of about $500.00 a month at the very most? Couldnt have them joining the main stream could we? Its much better to exploit them by paying them a little over 1.00 an hour.

I have a good idea why doesnt everyone get a guaranteed income of $500.00 a month and then work for $1.00 or $2.00 an hour to supplement it.
Are you up for that Sheep?


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 27 April 2003 03:03 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not to worry. Out here in BC, Gordon Campbell's Liberal government is making sure those damn gimps get off their lazy asses and into the workforce:

BC Coalition of People with Disabilities

quote:
The Ministry says that people who fail to submit the 23-page reapplication form could be put onto basic welfare. This means they will have to live on $510 a month, down nearly $300 from their current $786. As well, because of changes to the welfare legislation, they could be cut off from welfare in two years.

Keep kickin' those crutches, Gordo!


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569

posted 27 April 2003 03:30 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In BC, as of April 1, the earnings exemption per family on disability is $400 (and it does not have to be the disabled person earning the money). This was at the prompting of the Fraser Institute, of all places. So, a single disabled person can bring in up to $1186 per month before they start running the risk of being booted off disability. This works out to $14,232 a year.

Of course, there is a lot of emphasis on people trying to find employment that will allow them to become independent -- and of course, finding such work is next to impossible...


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 27 April 2003 03:41 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nobody answered the question that is the root of the entire problem here: What kind of idiot was managing that store?? $36 a week is hurting them?!?! Kee-ryst! That would require about... selling 3 more books a week? Oh Chapters is far too small and unpopular to be able to acheive such a standard.

[ 27 April 2003: Message edited by: Gir Draxon ]


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1752

posted 27 April 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hey, buddy, no non-military targets!
From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 27 April 2003 02:18 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Alberta allows $200 for a single and $775 for a family as exempted earning before your disability is clawed back. You don't get booted off disability if you make more.

Aviator I'm confused. Isn't the scheme you're proposing exactly what's happening here? He's getting a guaranteed income of around $870 a month (if he has Down's Syndrome, then he's on AISH), plus one or two bucks for working on top of that. I would rather that people who need it get an assured income and the ability to make some more on top of it than I would to see everybody get a flat $500 guaranteed income when they don't need it.

quote:
What kind of idiot was managing that store?? $36 a week is hurting them?!?! Kee-ryst! That would require about... selling 3 more books a week?

This decision probably did all come down to the store manager. He could have been one or more of the following:

1) Mean and stupid. Maybe he didn't like the guy?
2) An inept accountant...$36 a week affects the bottom line minimally, though the company is liable for him...could have been an insurance risk.
3) Maybe he was ordered by head office to reduce headcount. Maybe he thought, well if they want one less, I'll let this guy go, because he's got an assured income coming in, and keep someone else, who doesn't, working.

[ 27 April 2003: Message edited by: sheep ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 27 April 2003 06:49 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unless you are really wed to the idea of overnight delivery, I think independant book stores can order any book that Chapters can, with perhaps an exception.

It's unusual that books are so time sensitive, so give your independant a chance.

You may not be able to order into your independant book seller books that are popular, because Chapters have probably bought about 20,000 copies that they keep in a wharehouse, so that the publisher won't release any more copies, to anyone else, because "there are 20,000 unsold copies already on the market."


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 27 April 2003 07:38 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Another reason to support independent bookshops is that it would be a shame if only people with credit cards could buy books.

A good literary bookshop here is Nicholas Hoare, but he isn't really an "independent", but a very small chain, shops in Montreal (Greene Avenue in Lower Westmount, right by the Atwater métro) and Ottawa (Sussex Drive, by the market). Don't know if there are any others.

Still trying to think of a good outlet for more "political" type books in English.

Audra, I wouldn't really call the emporia you posted bookshops, though they do carry books. There used to be a really good gay & lesbian bookshop on St-Laurent here, Androgyne, but it seems to have closed down.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3285

posted 27 April 2003 10:53 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Aviator I'm confused. Isn't the scheme you're proposing exactly what's happening here?

I believe you are confused Sheep, Aviator was suggesting that this apply to EVERYONE - people like you too. Seems fair to me - if its good enough for a disabled person its good enough for you and everyone else who aspires to having enough to eat and a roof over their heads.

$200.00 a month !!!! My God HOW do they manage to spend ALL of that in one month? They must be stock piling a fortune.

Like everyone else you assume anyone who is disabled lives in a home or a supported environment - WRONG ! Disabled people and yes even those with mental disabilities want to be independent and have what everyone else has.

My daughter has nocturnal epilepsy, she was also a honour roll student and is working part time and going to college. The other day I went to pick up a prescription for her and the pharmacist had the nerve to ask me if I was her "care-giver". I said "Excuse me?" She said "Well I noticed on our files she has epilepsy - I was wondering if you are her care-giver."

I as so angry I was speechless, I was furious that a pharmacist of all people could be so damn ignorant. I am still trying to decide if this is worth reporting to her employer or not --

This kind of ignorance is epidemic, isnt it?


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 28 April 2003 01:18 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are right about one thing Kindred, I am confused. No thanks to the $500 a month though. I'm capable of working and I don't need it. I'd much rather see it go towards people who do.

$500 is a pretty crappy amount though. How much should people on disability pension get paid? And not some wishy washy "enough so they can live free with dignity blah blah blah". What's the dollar figure per month?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 225

posted 28 April 2003 01:48 AM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Kindred, are you positive the person behind the counter was actually a pharmacist? I used to work at a drug store and I was an assistant to a pharmacist while I was in University studying economics ( nothing to do with drugs obviously). Perhaps the reason the "vendor" asked was because they don't like to sell to anyone but the recipient of the drugs or "their caregiver". Honestly, caregiver can mean a zillion things. It is just one word to sum up mother/grandmother/girlfriend/sister and so forth? Maybe I am off here but I can imagine I have been in that position many times. It is hard not to offend. Even in my current job I talk to a lot of people about the disability tax credit and I have never been educated in the workplace on how to talk to clients about disabilities, nor learned the correct things to say. I try. I learn from mistakes if clients tell me what I said wrong. Maybe the best thing to do is just understand where the "pharmacist" is coming from even though I know they should know better. ?? Of course this relates nothing to the hiring of disabled persons.
From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Weltschmerz
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3713

posted 28 April 2003 12:27 PM      Profile for Weltschmerz     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
A good literary bookshop here is Nicholas Hoare, but he isn't really an "independent", but a very small chain, shops in Montreal (Greene Avenue in Lower Westmount, right by the Atwater métro) and Ottawa (Sussex Drive, by the market). Don't know if there are any others.

We have Nicholas Hoare here in T.O. as well, down on Front St. Good store; they don't carry a huge stock, but they face almost everything, which makes browsing pretty easy.

Toronto has seen a huge reduction in independent book stores over the past 5 to 10 years. Of the few remaining, I love Pages, Book City, and of course Bakka for SF/Fantasy (although I wish they hadn't moved from Queen St.!)

Cheers,


From: Trana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
bakunin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3991

posted 28 April 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for bakunin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i encourage everyone to make a habit of 'liberating' a few books from chapters every week. preferebly hardcovers $$

[ 28 April 2003: Message edited by: bakunin ]


From: we may not convince you but we'll convince your children | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 April 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You do realize that would tend to get one's ass kicked if discovered? People aren't accepting the excuses that book swipers used to make.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 28 April 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
People aren't accepting the excuses that book swipers used to make.

And what would those be?


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 28 April 2003 03:45 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Among others: The book told me to!
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 April 2003 08:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And what would those be?

In the 1970s and 1980s if you got caught lifting something and you hadn't been really obvious about it the excuse that you were going to pay for it and forgot would have held water.

Now, stores have mandatory policies to hold all purported shoplifters for charges.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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