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Author Topic: Suprise! The US is seen as a bully
kuba walda
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posted 04 December 2002 07:54 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's a deep reserve of goodwill for the U.S., and there's the long-standing envy and admiration for thingsAmerican. But there's also a strong sense that Washington dictates to the world and even ignores its friends.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/12/04/pewsurvey021204


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 08:03 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm. Yeah I suppose that's all true. The flip side of course is that American's have lost patirnce themselves with a whole range of countries since 9/11. There is much less inclination to seek consensus, mainly due to the fact that many Americans feel that we will be pilloried no matter what we do.

I prefer that we try to help other countries. Sometimes that means deposing evil people like Saddam. It seems most of the world would rather leave him in power. There are many people on the far left and the far right who believe this here (albeit for different reasons). The far left would have us essentially give up sovereignity to the UN and unilaterally disarm. The far right would have us kick the UN out of the country, pull all of our troops out of every country (e.g. South Korea) and let the rest of the world deal with the consequnces.

I have to say the lure of isolationism is very appealing. It's pretty difficult for us to be criticized if we just pull up stakes and retreat into fortress America (which actually can be made self-sufficient).


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 04 December 2002 08:08 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is the frustration of being the world's only superpower. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

But I imagine you could see that coming.

I don't think the rest of the world wants to leave Saddam in power. I think the rest of the world is unsure and loath to take more innocent lives. And maybe that caution is wrong, and maybe not.

Dubya has no such worries. It's a very simple issue if you ignore all the complications.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 08:23 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I guess people don't have to believe Dubya any more. This week's British revelation spells out in rather lurid detail what Saddam is all about. "Innocent lives" are lying in metal coffin-like boxes right now in Bagdhad until they confess or die. Innocent lives are snuffed out fairly regularly through a plethora of torture techniques.

This obession with not taking one "innocent life" in order to free an entire people from tyranny and oppression can also be seen as cowardice and capitulation to evil.

If there is a campaign to liberate Iraq some people will indeed die. Some Americans might die, maybe me. Maybe the world is "post-democratic". Everybody thinks our "Live Free Or Die" license plates are hokey and atavistic.

Except us. We still believe it.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 04 December 2002 08:27 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Everybody thinks our "Live Free Or Die" license plates are hokey and atavistic.

Problem is the live free is the US and the DIE is the rest of the world.

And its not just about the almost certain pending war with Iraq ...... its about foreign policies say, like in South America that prop up dictatorships because they support the US while the people suffer in poverty.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 04 December 2002 08:28 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is not cowardice. It is conflictedness.

It's a question of not making it worse. If we could be sure we wouldn't make it worse, it would be easy.

As for "Live Free or Die," we roll our eyes at the selective way that is applied. Freedom to spend your money any way you want, freedom to carry a gun, freedom to bomb anyone you want - all those are clearly valued. But in the case of freedom not to have one's phone tapped, reproductive freedom, religious freedom, the USA seems to be taking a nap. That's why we don't believe in your "freedom." Because it isn't freedom to us.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 09:49 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for "Live Free or Die," we roll our eyes at the selective way that is applied. Freedom to spend your money any way you want, freedom to carry a gun, freedom to bomb anyone you want - all those are clearly valued. But in the case of freedom not to have one's phone tapped, reproductive freedom, religious freedom, the USA seems to be taking a nap. That's why we don't believe in your "freedom." Because it isn't freedom to us.


Freedom to carry a gun. Well, yes it is indeed a freedom. It's called the Second Ammendment. It's part of our way of life--safety mechanism against tyranny of our own government.

Freedom to bomb anyone we want - although technocally we have this freedom since we are unopposed in terms of military power--it is pure nonsense to pretend we go around bombing countries for no reason. Or that we are imperialistic (if we were you would be an American right now).

Reproductive freedom -- there is a lot of legitimate disagreeement on the issue of abortion in our country. Canada happens to be one of the most liberal countries on earth re abortion, but this is not as simple an issue as many would have it (and I am 100% pro-choice).

Religious Freedom -- We invented religious freedom for god sake! What do you think seperation of church and state is all about? Why do you think we ban prayer in schools, etc? This one is a non-starter.

Phones tapped -- Nonsense. This is blown way out of proportion. These changes are legitimate adjustments to allow monitoring of terrorists in some specific conditions.

If you want to pick on us for something, you missed the motherlode: the Drug War. Now THAT is where our government is positively predatory and draconian. I wish the Canadian gov't had the balls to stand up to the assholes here and legalize pot.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bluto
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posted 04 December 2002 09:57 PM      Profile for Bluto     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear Minigun

Your country is certainly imperialist. But in a neo-con kind of way, where you can control everybody else without spending the money to set up an imperial civil service. A combination of seduction through mass entertainment and sheer bullying is all that's needed.

And as for isolationism -- I wish you would. You go your way and leave the rest of the world to go its way. Problem is, you don't really know what "isolationism" means. "Isolationism" is not the same as unilateralism, which is what you folks practice, from initiating a war in Iraq to your absolute determination that no other country is going to be able to question, let alone challenge, your hegemony.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 04 December 2002 10:04 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Religious Freedom -- We invented religious freedom for god sake!

Yeah, and now it's being yanked away from you, one Ten Commandments plaque at a time. Your President and his "faith-based initiatives" and his "Jesus Day"...yeah, he's real good at separating church and state.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 04 December 2002 10:05 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have to say the lure of isolationism is very appealing. It's pretty difficult for us to be criticized if we just pull up stakes and retreat into fortress America (which actually can be made self-sufficient).

Hey everybody: Wouldn't the world be a fabulous place if the US were self-sufficient?? No more leaching off the labour in Southeast Asia, the oil in the Middle East, bananas, coffee and human lives (to name a few) in Central America, the consumers everywhere else...No more "untapped marketplaces" because there' be no more tap...

A girl can dream, can't she?

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 04 December 2002 10:10 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey everybody: Wouldn't the world be a fabulous place if the US were self-sufficient?? No more leaching off the labour in Southeast Asia, the oil in the Middle East, bananas, coffee and human lives (to name a few) in Central America, the consumers everywhere else...No more "untapped marketplaces" because there's no tap anymore...

Yeah, wouldn't it be great! We could let all those responsible European nations take over. Unless of course we need help digging out of a flood, or earthquake, or famine, then we can all coming running to the US for help, just like always.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 04 December 2002 10:17 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Freedom to carry a gun. Well, yes it is indeed a freedom. It's called the Second Ammendment. It's part of our way of life--safety mechanism against tyranny of our own government.

I guess you better write that Amendment again, cause this version failed!

quote:
The authority to kill U.S. citizens is granted under a secret finding signed by the president after the Sept. 11 attacks that directs the CIA to covertly attack al-Qaida anywhere in the world. The authority makes no exception for Americans, so permission to strike them is understood rather than specifically described, officials said.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 04 December 2002 10:44 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, wouldn't it be great! We could let all those responsible European nations take over. Unless of course we need help digging out of a flood, or earthquake, or famine, then we can all coming running to the US for help, just like always.

Ah, but without the US leaching resources from everywhere else in the world, maybe all these countries you speak of will actually have money that's worth something, and they won't need emergency relief from the nation that sucked them dry and left vulnerable in the first place.

And who says anyone has to 'take over'? It's a planet, not a remote control...

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 11:44 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey everybody: Wouldn't the world be a fabulous place if the US were self-sufficient??

Yeah, wouldn't Canada be a lovely place if we decided to end the US $50 billion trade surplus that keeps your pathetic economy from completely collapsing. Or maybe we should just cut off trade completely with Canada, seeing as we are enemy #1 up there. I wonder how many of you haters would appreciate a North Korean standard of living: no Rabble, no computers, no decent hospitals -- just an endless supply of smug, self-righteous, holier-than-thou sanctimony.

You can only kick sand in the face of a sleeping bear for so long...


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dr. Mr. Ben
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posted 05 December 2002 12:09 AM      Profile for Dr. Mr. Ben   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, we're your biggest trading partner, too. The States rely quite heavily on our oil. When there's a power crisis? Buy some electricity from BC or Quebec. Next time you're reading a book or a magazine, take a look at where it's printed. Dollars to dougnuts, the answer's Canada. Hell, if some people had their way, we'd be shipping our water across the border. Plus, you'd have to find somewhere else to sell all that stuff--capitalism doesn't work so good when there ain't nobody to buy stuff.

This relationship isn't a matter of one side propping the other up, which is a highly simplistic, reductionist, and generally unsupportable position to take. There's a mutual dependence between our two economies.

Maybe we would think more kindly of America, if USians weren't always making grandstanding threats like that. Cooperation is preferable to intimidation, as far as I can tell. As our Prime Minister said, "when you are rich like you are, you guys, this is the time to be nice."


From: Mechaslovakia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 12:17 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, wouldn't Canada be a lovely place if we decided to end the US $50 billion trade surplus that keeps your pathetic economy from completely collapsing.

You go ahead. If you can find the stuff we sell you for a better price somewhere else, you just go ahead and buy it somewhere else.

I'm really fucking tired of you guys acting like we're your charity case. You don't buy stuff from us for compassionate reasons. You buy it because you want it, so shut the hell up.

quote:

Or maybe we should just cut off trade completely with Canada, seeing as we are enemy #1 up there

Ah, there's that typical American ability to see the shades of grey.

quote:
I wonder how many of you haters would appreciate a North Korean standard of living: no Rabble, no computers, no decent hospitals -- just an endless supply of smug, self-righteous, holier-than-thou sanctimony.

Hmm, I wonder how you'd feel without your smug, self-righteous, holier-than-thou sanctimony.

quote:

You can only kick sand in the face of a sleeping bear for so long...

Uh huh, 'cause we're soooooo mean to you guys.

Yeah, well, you can only step on a mouse's tail so many times before it gets fed up and decides to bite you. Suck it up.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Pagan
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posted 05 December 2002 12:18 AM      Profile for Ronald Pagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And finally the true American comes out. Don't like us for who we are but fear and obey us for what we might be.

Look at yourself, getting backed in a corner and then making threats. Do you wonder why there is such animosity towards the American state? Conversations such as this one. Pointed out earlier were a series of legitimate concerns with the US and policy directions. Instead of acknowledging this apprently obvious problems to everyone outside of the states you go about some diatribe of how everything we are we owe to you. Well frankly be that the case it still does little to disway from the main tenet being that the US is a bully. And you, fittingly, are providing more ammo for this argument by acting like a bully yourself in defense of your beloved country.

As adults, instead of indoctrinates, can we not examine what is wrong with the present new world order without it developing into some pithy argument of mine country good your country bad?


From: Guantanamo Bay | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 12:19 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Our "pathetic economy" is doing a hell of a lot better than yours right now, anyway.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Pagan
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posted 05 December 2002 12:25 AM      Profile for Ronald Pagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My country can beat up your country.
From: Guantanamo Bay | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 12:38 AM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Our "pathetic economy" is doing a hell of a lot better than yours right now, anyway.

I get a kick out of that every time I hear it. An economy with a 63 cent dollar and nearly double the per capita debt we have, where your richest province is poorer than our poorest state, where our supposedly "oppressed" African-Americans are richer as a group per capita than Canadians--that's what you call doing "a hell of a lot better"?

You're starting to believe your government's propaganda--a very bad move in a socialist country.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 12:49 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Socialist."

I suppose if you're a right-winger, everyone looks socialist.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 05 December 2002 12:51 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You're starting to believe your government's propaganda

Yeah, a yank is one to talk on this issue.


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 05 December 2002 12:58 AM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A little reality check re: U.S. and the rest of the world.

Where does the United States get most of its oil? Canada. We supply you with 25% more oil than your pals, the Saudis, who, incidentally own a substantial portion of your country.

Which country has the largest foreign debt?
The USA. Better hope other countries keep lending you money and that the WTO and the IMF don't decide that structural adjustments are in order.

What criminal organization imports more drugs into the US than any other? Yes kids, it's the CIA.

Which country has toppled more democratically-elected governments than any other in history (only to replace them with brutal dictatorships that are trained to torture innocent civilians by the above-mentioned criminal organization)? Yup, it is the US of A.

What country has supported more despots (Pinochet, Saddam, Suharto, Osama, Somoza inter alia), only to betray them when they were no longer convenient? Do I really need to spell it out?

What country has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners? You guessed it.

What country has peformed chemical, radiation and biological experiments on its own soldiers? What country, because of a shady deal with a former enemy, allowed thousands of its bravest patriots to languish in POW camps long after the war was over and lied to their families, telling them that the abandoned soldiers were dead? When one of these managed to escape, which country used all its power to brand him a traitor and court-martial him because his existence branded them as liars? Yes, it does take guts to be an American soldier.

More than anyone, american soldiers have been and are still being used and betrayed by the country for which they nobly wish to risk their lives.

Canada is not perfect and our politicians have a lot to be ashamed of as well.

Just for the record, I like Americans. They deserve a democratic country.

In another thread, some babblers were calling minigun a coward for being a soldier. Personally, it made me sick. Soldiers are, at present, a tragic necessity and deserve our respect.

I only wish their soldiers could see what they're really fighting and dying for; the rest of the world does and it's a damn waste.

Edited to correct typos and add: Using the CIA's World Factbook as a source, with 2001 population figures and 2000 foreign debt numbers for Canada and 1995 figures for the US foreign debt (your Shrub has massively increased this), the per capita foreign debt figures (in US$) are USA=$2463.00, Canada=$59.00

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 05 December 2002 01:08 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I only wish their soldiers could see what they're really fighting and dying for; the rest of the world does and it's a damn waste.

You mean nuclear waste (DU)? ...1 in 7 Americans that served in the PGW are suffering from radiation poisoning. Shitty, innit? You think there be more outrage, more soldiers refusing to serve. But no, the propaganda warriors win again.


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 December 2002 01:32 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heavy metal poisoning to be more precise. DU has a relatively low radioactivity level.

Even so heavy metals are nothing to sneeze at.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
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posted 05 December 2002 01:33 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Minigun's America doesn't want friends. It wants sycophants.

And it believes it will be the most powerful nation forever, apparently.

Yes, Saddam is a tyrant. A dangerous tyrant. But so are many others.

We wonder why Saddam, why now? and ask simple questions and good skeptic should ask, and we don't get answers, but tirades and threats instead.

This does little to allay suspicion.


From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 05 December 2002 01:36 AM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FBI...I did not know that.
So, minigun, back up one of your claims. Tell me ONE THING that's better there than here, cause it ain't health care, crime rate or comedians.

By the way, about this poorest state/richest province claim which I find highly suspect.
Keep in mind a little fact about aggregate econmic statistics. If Bill Gates moves to Liberia, the per capita income goes from
about $200 to almost $11,000. Wow! Suddenly everbody's rich!!!


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 05 December 2002 02:05 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You can only kick sand in the face of a sleeping bear for so long...

Ahhhh, ya fadda's mustache.

Our socialized school system has taught us the ancient art of "dynamic tension" with which we are able to handle the likes of you.

And when you do invade, be sure to put light oil in your skiddoo and wear many layers of clothing.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 05 December 2002 02:43 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In another thread, some babblers were calling minigun a coward for being a soldier. Personally, it made me sick

This may be partially directed at me, I dunno. In another thread I aimed some rather harsh words at minigun. While I don't retract what I said, I regret the tone in which I said it.

I also have a great respect for soldiers and I have a great respect for you, minigun. I just think you would do yourself and your country a great deal of good to look at this situation with new eyes and not reject the facts that don't fit your world view out of hand.

You owe it to the great nation that you were born into to investigate the truth about the current administration (and previous ones). It is never the time to say "my country, right or wrong". If you do not question your superiors, they quickly become your dictators. Freedom is not about the guns you own, it's all about the questions you ask.

I don't think people here are anti-US. We are anti-tryanny. The criticism we aim at our own government is frequently scathing. But right now, it's hard not to fall into knee-jerk US criticism, because people are scared, and that makes them angry. The world's biggest war machine is ready to rumble, and I have no confidence whatsoever in the motives of the people at the wheel. I think if you were to allow yourself a dispassionate appraisal of the facts, you would feel the same.

The Bush administraion doesn't care about killing the peole of Iraq and it doesn't care about helping them. It doesn't care about killing you or the other noble souls that will serve their hideous schemes of profit and power. It doesn't care about the citizens of its country that it is meant to represent and it certainly doesn't care about anyone in any other country.

Wealth and power is all they even understand. All else is rehearsed speeches that they only vaugely hear and have no emotional connection with. Your country is run by dangerous sociopaths that have no compunction about destroying it utterly if they profit.

I admire your willingness to serve because I believe that your conviction that this war is just is sincere, but I beg you to look again. Don't throw your life away for these men, who would shoot you in the back of the head before they would let you impede their corruption.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Pagan
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posted 05 December 2002 02:54 AM      Profile for Ronald Pagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They have better beer over there don't they?

(C'mon I mean what would be a Canadian slagfest of the States without the beer argument.)


From: Guantanamo Bay | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 05 December 2002 03:23 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Personnel in or near (less than approximately 50 metres) an armoured vehicle at the time these vehicles were struck by Depleted Uranium munitions could receive significant internal DU exposures (i.e. those in excess of allowable standards)."

- Excerpt from a US Army Ballistic Research Laboratory (BRL) report 1989. The BRL study determined that an average of 79% of airborne DU particles measured downwind of an impacted vehicle were of respirable size (less then 10 microns in diameter), meaning that if inhaled they could become permanently trapped in the lungs. (Information provided by Colonel Eric Daxon, Radiation Protection Staff Officer of the US Army Medical Command, in a 1996 letter to researcher Dan Fahey).

"Aerosol DU (Depleted Uranium) exposures to soldiers on the battlefield could be significant with potential radiological and toxicological effects. [...] Under combat conditions, the most exposed individuals are probably ground troops that re-enter a battlefield following the exchange of armour-piercing munitions. [...] We are simply highlighting the potential for levels of DU exposure to military personnel during combat that would be unacceptable during peacetime operations. [...DU is..]... a low level alpha radiation emitter which is linked to cancer when exposures are internal, [and] chemical toxicity causing kidney damage. [...] Short term effects of high doses can result in death, while long term effects of low doses have been linked to cancer. [...] Our conclusion regarding the health and environmental acceptability of DU penetrators assume both controlled use and the presence of excellent health physics management practices. Combat conditions will lead to the uncontrolled release of DU. [...] The conditions of the battlefield, and the long term health risks to natives and combat veterans may become issues in the acceptability of the continued use of DU kinetic penetrators for military applications[...]

- Excerpt from the July 1990 Science and Applications International Corporation report: ' Kinetic Energy Penetrator Environment and Health Considerations', as included in Appenix D - US Army Armaments, Munitions and Chemical Command report: 'Kinetic Energy Penetrator Long Term Strategy Study, July 1990'

It was only after the war had ended that the following warning was issued to US troops:

"Any system struck by a DU penetrator can be assumed to be contaminated with DU. [...] Personnel should avoid entering contaminated systems [and] personnel exposed to DU contamination should wash exposed areas and discard clothings."
[...]
540,000 US troops served in the 'war'. 138 lost their lives in combat, friendly fire incidents and general accidents. Over 9,600 veterans have died since. Over 120,000 have filed reports of unusual, often completely debilitating, illnesses. A sigificant percentage have fathered children with extreme birth deformities.


TFTT

I think the risk associated with radiation from DU is one I would not take.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Flowers By Irene ]


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 12:29 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
Beside the anti-American feelings around the world that the survey found ..... I found this interesting.

quote:
The survey had a lot else in it, including the general fact that People around the globe believe the world's fortunes are drifting downwards.

There was one exception.

The survey says Canada is the only place in the world today where a majority of people are actually satisfied with their lives.


Canadians are satisfied? hmmmm never thought of it before. I complain like everyone else about my salary, etc etc etc

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 December 2002 12:40 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This week's British revelation spells out in rather lurid detail what Saddam is all about.

Gag me with a spoon. Everyone who follows Amnesty International reports already knew everything that was in the British report.

Politicians "discover" human rights abuses when it is convenient or useful for them to do so.

God, but I hate crocodile tears.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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Babbler # 2659

posted 05 December 2002 12:41 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Most Canadians view the US quite favourably, adn according to the poll figures we are one of the few countries that views the US just as favourably this year (72%) as we did in 1999-2000 (72%). The big cause for concern for the US govt in this poll has got to be the falling approval for the US almost everywhere, and especially in Muslim countries.

Noticed that Canadians in the poll were the only people in the world where a majority were satisfied with their own country (56%, compared to 41% of Americans, 32% in Britain and France, etc). If that's to be believed, Americans want a better country but tend to rally around the flag when threatened (and that's how i read the last election). Canadians are able to excuse the many flaws of their own country (the world's biggest energy-hogs, growing homelessness, abandonment of our peacekeeping tradition, treatement of aboriginal people, etc) by looking south and saying, like Mary's Walsh's Connie from Calgary, "thank god for the USA, if it wasn't for them we'd be the most wasteful and ignorant country in the world, but as it is we have someone to look down on." I think Canada's great, and i'm happy like all past generations of Canadians to accept a lower standard of living in exchange for Canada's sense of community, but i wish we could do better than rally around the flag when our country is criticized by Americans, no matter how self-righteous.

Most telling figure: 75% of Americans think the US takes the views of other countries into account a gret deal or a fair amount. Only 25% of Canadians feel this way. We're right on this one, by the way.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 December 2002 12:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love it when you go all valley-girl on us, skdadl.

I think, judging from quite a few "man on the street" interviews I saw on BBC World News, lots of British people feel your same cynicism, skdadl. They were all saying basically, this guy has been doing this for years - how convenient that we're bringing it up now.

One woman said, "It doesn't make sense - we're going to liberate them by bombing them?"


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 December 2002 12:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Michelle.

Even though I was a little old to be a Valley Girl, I thought even then that they had invented a few genuinely original ornaments of rhetoric.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 01:02 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
This was on the rabble page....... 3 minute
action

If you haven't seen it, its priceless.......

http://www.rootingoutevil.org/


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 December 2002 01:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Three months ago, I would have signed that with a laugh.

Today, the thought of giving my full name and email address on a list like that creeps me out, I don't know why. I agree with the premise totally, but lately I've just been feeling like I shouldn't ever use any of my cards, ever give my name in stores where they ask for it when you buy something, etc. I mean, I used to not want to do it on principle, you know? But now, it seriously makes me paranoid.

I found out a while back that a relative has a "file" on him because I showed strong support for a refugee a few years back by writing letters on his behalf and trying to help him go through government channels - and my relative had a file on him simply because of his connection to ME. And everything I did then was totally above-board - I wasn't hiding a damn thing. Nothing to get all secret-servicey about.

Am I the only one getting seriously concerned about this kind of thing lately?

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 01:35 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ugh!

I don't like giving my name or e-mail in stores either. Creepy.

I usually use my first initial and my last name. I get a little more anonymity that way.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 December 2002 01:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I tell them, "No thanks, I'd rather not." Usually they'll just say, "Okay."

I bought a little egg timer two days ago at Radio Shack in order to do mock LSAT exams at home (I have to time them exactly. I was paying cash for one small item and the guy wanted my name and address and phone number, etc. He said, "May I have your name for the receipt?" I thought, I don't want a problem today, so I gave him my name. It took him forEVER to type it in, and the guy behind me had been waiting a while. Then he asked for my address, and I told him, "No thanks, I'd rather not."

For the receipt my ass. It's for their database and I'm not interested in giving them free mailing lists.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 December 2002 01:39 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I signed it. If CSIS and the CIA want to waste valuable time and money investigating my background, they can go right ahead. I like the idea of wasting their resources, if they are so incredibly stupid as to think that I (or anyone who simply expresses dissenting opinions) am a threat.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 01:45 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
After 9/11 someone told me, quite seriously that our phones are monitored and if people use key phrases the CIA or someone listens to the conversation. Like say bomb, terrorist etc. Apparently this person said the system crashed on 9/11 because so many people were phoning each other about the events of the day.

Personally, I think its paranoia udnerstandable with what's happening to human rights


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 05 December 2002 01:46 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For the receipt my ass. It's for their database and I'm not interested in giving them free mailing lists.

The salespeople get commission based on how much information you give. If they get your name, address and phone number, I think they get an extra 15% or something like that.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 December 2002 01:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, I know it's totally irrational. That's why I used the word "paranoia". But still...it's just creepy to me. I never used to care about being someone's statistic, but now I'm even careful about what web sites I click on - if someone mentions a hate literature site, like that white supremacist site that was mentioned a few days ago, I go to look at it out of curiosity - feel disgust and leave - and then think, my computer probably has a record of my having been to that site now, and so does my ISP, etc. And yet it doesn't reflect my attitude in any way.

Well anyhow. I guess I've drifted big time on this thread, sorry. I'll start a new topic if you folks are still interested in discussing it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bluto
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posted 05 December 2002 01:54 PM      Profile for Bluto     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Further to rooting out evil, here's what some chums of mine in the UK are up to...

Gloucestershire Weapons Inspectors


From: Left Coast | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 05 December 2002 02:37 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I usually give old addresses and phone numbers to places like Futile Shop that insist that they "need" my name and address for the leech- uh, I mean salesperson's records. I know that it's really for their commission.

And yes, I've heard that there are key phrases that are monitoried using the ECHELON (aka UKUSA) system.

"And with that, I'm done. Hello to all my friends in domestic surveillance."


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 05 December 2002 02:39 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come everyone how can you possible call the US a bully. So what if they spend more on weapons than everyone else combined and they now have a President who likes to say things like, "if you are not with us you are agin us." Does that sound like a bully to you?

Yes if the US stopped buying our goods our economy would suffer big time. But frankly it would be good for us, a sort of post-free trade tough love. The US of course would not even notice that they don't have enough oil or timber or electricity or metals. But they would definitely insist on a corridor through Canada to get at the Alaskan resources. But that wouldn't be imperilaism would it?


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ben_al
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posted 05 December 2002 02:48 PM      Profile for ben_al     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let them have their files on me. what are they going to do about it. I have not broken the law by posting a comment opposing the current regime. Maybe thay should investigate dissenters, after all the biggest threat to the American regime is not Binny or Saddam, its information and knowledge of the truth. Their paranoia schemes only work if people let them.
From: Kitchener, ON | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 03:39 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oderint dum metuant.
From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 05 December 2002 03:45 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They have better beer over there don't they?

Damndamndamndamn...DAMN. You're right, Ronald P! I can't believe I spent 200 words slagging the US and didn't mention sex in a canoe. Serves me right for posting in the wee hours.

Jacob Two-two: actually, the "made me sick" comment was not directed at you. It was directed AT THE COMMENTS of another poster.

I don't direct insults at people unless TWO criteria are met:

1. They insult me first. (This has only happened once that I am aware of, and it don't consider it was you, skdadl).

2. They aren't "sensitive" types who have misconstrued an innocent comment of mine to be an insult.

If I insult anyone personally, it will be very clear .

Spelling fetish:

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 04:00 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Similarly, despite widespread resentment toward U.S. international policies, majorities in nearly every country believe that the emergence of another superpower would make the world a more dangerous place. This view is shared even in Egypt and Pakistan, where no more than one-in-ten have a favorable view of the U.S. And in Russia, a 53% majority believes the world is a safer place with a single superpower.

.Source


Everybody thinks US supremacy is the worst situation imaginable--except for all the other possible situations


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 04:03 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Like I said, Oderint dum metuant. Let them hate us as long as they fear us.
From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alienrocker
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Babbler # 2026

posted 05 December 2002 04:03 PM      Profile for Alienrocker        Edit/Delete Post
Good heavens, what bad tempers! Minigun, what a militaristic name - "how Amerikan", eh? - it's obvious he's an imperialist swine, just like the rest of those awful, piggish, thuggish, Americans.
Hopefully, he will be called up in the illegal war against Eye-rack and break his neck parachuting into Baghdad! Then no one will have to read any more of his swill on the Rabble forum, which is the very essence of reasoned discourse. I think it is, which is why I read as often as I can.

I can see that many Canadians here are very upset with the United States these days. And if Canadians are upset with us, then who isn't?

So, if US feelings are hurt enough, we will go away from everyone and go home quietly, and stay there and not talk to anybody ever again. OK?

Well, maybe we can install one more dictator, exploit one more third world country, drop one more bomb on an innocent village, talk about Jesus one more time, issue one more shallow techno-thriller, let one more single mother not get health care, fill up the SUV tank with precious oil once more, eat one more triple cheese-burger, suck down one more Big Gulp, shoot one more person with a handgun, develop one more pristine environment with McMansions, and - gasp -arrest one more person for pot.

But you'd better hurry before we do more. Somehow I don't think our feelings are hurt enough yet.


From: visiting central CT, USA from Rigel IV, Quadrant 9 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 December 2002 04:15 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone else find the choice of handles by two of our most recent trolls--minigun and junior--interesting, in a Freudian since? Are they compensating for something? Unless, of course, they are one and the same.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 05 December 2002 04:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think they are, josh.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 04:17 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've always observed that Americans think of Canada as the "second-best country on earth". I would like to think the Canadians think of America as the "second-best country on earth" as well. On this forum it seems like many Canadians think Canada is seriously fucked up and the US is the most evil society to ever have existed (read backa few posts). This is an exaggeration, but not by much.

Laying all the bullshit and extremism aside, both Canada and the US are in fact the best--or certainly among the best--countries on the planet, despite their respective problems. People vote with their feet, and despite all the anti-US and ant-Western rhetoric, both countries are viewed as supremely desirable places to live by billions of people.

Don't be so hard on the US, and don't be so hard on yourselves.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 04:20 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Does anyone else find the choice of handles by two of our most recent trolls--minigun and junior--interesting, in a Freudian since? Are they compensating for something? Unless, of course, they are one and the same.

josh - fuck you. A minigun refers to gatling gun on my Kiowa helicopter that saved my life in the Gulf. 2,000 rouds per minute. Can cut a telephone pole in half in 3 seconds.

And no, I don't have a small dick.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 December 2002 04:23 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great quotes in U.S. history:

Richard Nixon: "I am not a crook."

minigun: "I don't have a small dick."


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 04:27 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, maybe we can install one more dictator, exploit one more third world country, drop one more bomb on an innocent village, talk about Jesus one more time, issue one more shallow techno-thriller, let one more single mother not get health care, fill up the SUV tank with precious oil once more, eat one more triple cheese-burger, suck down one more Big Gulp, shoot one more person with a handgun, develop one more pristine environment with McMansions, and - gasp -arrest one more person for pot.

You forgot and execute one more person

----------
Josh I was thinking the same thing..... Lord Farquaad popped in to my mind

And minigun I for one don't think that the US would be at all a desirable place to live.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 05 December 2002 04:33 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't be an ass Josh. Minigun is far from a troll. Troll is a term I would reserve for somebody who attacks another's opinions with aspersions on his dick size.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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posted 05 December 2002 04:36 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually Scandanavian countries were reported by the UN to be the best countries to live in I think, Canada was number 3 - I know Sweden beat us, I dont remember the 2nd but I think it was Norway. The US came in lower at number 7.

I dont believe Cdns have an "all out" hate for Americans. We just feel you should learn a few things about getting along with other people.

When I think of the US I think of a particularly badly behaved child - loud, obnoxious, bullying, someone who cant see other peoples viewpoint or value. Kind of like the obnoxious brat on the school ground screaming 'Oh yah well my dad can kick the shit out of your dad anyday." its also this thing about wanting to steal everyone elses toys and set all the rules -

Visualize: other kids rolling their eyes, laughing and turning their backs on the brat. No one wants to play with him anymore because he is behaving like a real jerk.

Its the the idea of name calling, bullying, fighting, blustering, wanting to rule, no respect for other people or countries or culture, it just doesnt sit will with most of us mild mannered laid back Canadians.

The sheer arrogance and if you try and tell an American that they immediately come back with "Oh yah well you are just jealous of us". Oh yah that is all right -- Communication skills 101 "Listening Skills". Paraphrase after me "I am not jealous of you, I want you to realize we all think our own country is the best. Stop telling me yours is and you should rule the world, and demanding that I agree with you."


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
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posted 05 December 2002 04:41 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The United Nations Human Development Report.

Norway came in first. Then Australia, then Canada, then Sweden, then Belgium.


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 04:46 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And minigun I for one don't think that the US would be at all a desirable place to live.

The US is a pretty big and diverse place. It's not like saying "I wouldn't want to live in Piss Lake, Wyoming"

There is likely somewhere in the US that even you would like -- unless you live on welfare, the US sucks then.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 December 2002 04:47 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wasn't attacking his opinions based on that sheep. I just thought his choice of handle, well, interesting. There's plenty of other grounds to attack his opinions. But I won't waste my breath.

As for trolls, someone who calls this site's host country "pathetic" is, if not a troll, certainly not someone I would want to exchange serious views with.

And by the way, where did "sheep" come from?


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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posted 05 December 2002 04:50 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Flotsam, being a Canadian of Norwegian origins I can only smile - yay for our side!

A thought: it isnt the size of the "gun" that matters its where its mounted and how you use it. A minigun on a Kiowa helicopter has my attention I have a visual of a duel being fought with respective "weapons" -

(Clearly I dont have enough to do today.)


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 04:54 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
I can't think of one place in the US that I would like to live. I'm in Victoria and the Pacific Northwest is much the same as here in terms of geography etc....

Its the attitude, domestic and foreign policies.... not the where. Americans get so rah rah over their constitution ..... I wouldn't want to live in a country that gives its citizens the right to bear arms.

I found Josh's comments funny given minigun's choice of career not his comments. Wasn't it in Platoon, this is my gun..... one is for fighting one is for fun. I can't remember how the whole thing went.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 04:56 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for trolls, someone who calls this site's host country "pathetic" is, if not a troll, certainly not someone I would want to exchange serious views with.


josh - I have been called a murderer, a baby-killer, an imperialist war-mongering blood-thirsty coward on this forum, among other things. My country has been compared to Nazi Germany routinely. It has been called arrogant, boorish, agressive, belligerent, foolish, etc. etc. almost daily.

Excuse me if I take the occaisional shot at Canada. It's not like the whole world is crying for your country's destruction.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 05:04 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I wouldn't want to live in a country that gives its citizens the right to bear arms.

I would like to live in Canada, at least from what I've seen of Montreal and Toronto. Never been to the West Coast, although I hear it is staggeringly beautiful.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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posted 05 December 2002 05:08 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To be fair, if we wish to restrict postings to only those who champion Canada are we not being - well = kind of "American" in out attitudes?

If someone calls us a bunch of free loading, cowaredly parasitic weenies, well I will be the first one to get bent out of shape.

But I welcome the opinions and perceptions of people from other countries here. It only figures that not every one thinks Canada is wonderful - As long as it isnt name calling and ignorance. N'est ce consent? (?)


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 05 December 2002 05:12 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
josh - I have been called a murderer, a baby-killer, an imperialist war-mongering blood-thirsty coward on this forum, among other things.

Cites, please. One would suffice.

quote:
It's not like the whole world is crying for your country's destruction.

Nor is it crying for your country's. My dear fellow. Such self-drama! You're in a positive tizzy!

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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Babbler # 2119

posted 05 December 2002 05:12 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And by the way, where did "sheep" come from?

From my hairdo Josh


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 05:13 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
free loading, cowaredly parasitic weenies

I have no problem with being called that, because I understand where that attitude comes from. It is because of the perception of Americans that we live on their skirttales and are objectors to this war. My point has always been that maybe when another person says something about Americans (imperalistic, warmongering) or their foreign policy maybe they could be a little introspective as well.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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posted 05 December 2002 05:14 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cool sheep - does it look like your head exploded if you go out in the rain?
From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 December 2002 05:15 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cites, please. One would suffice.

Moredreads said I was a "Karla Holmolka" because I was in the Army. I had no idea what he/she was talking about until I looked it up and found out he was talking about a Candian serial killer.

If he thinks all soldiers are serial killers, then what can I say? There are some insane people here.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 05 December 2002 05:16 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, minigun, back up one of your claims. Tell me ONE THING that's better there than here, cause it ain't health care, crime rate or comedians.
Or beer.

So?


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 05 December 2002 05:20 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
American music totally kicks ass on Canadian music. So there's one.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 05:21 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
when another person says something about Americans (imperalistic, warmongering) or their foreign policy maybe they could be a little introspective as well.

Do you have the slightest idea what goes on internally in American politics? We are probably the most determinedly introspective nation on earth. Everything and anything is debated endlessly by people who range from even further left than this those on this forum all the way over to the Jerry Falwells. To insinuate that American's just blithely pursue foreign--or domestic--policy without consultation and debate is sheer ignorance. Similarly, considering we don't have to consult anyone on anything, we actually do consult other nations on an almost constant basis on nearly everything.

Do we seem to act unilaterally at times? Well d'uh! We are the only remaining super-power. I mean, we could just unilaterally order Canada around, but for the most part we don't. We could invade Cuba, but we don't.

A little realism here would be helpful.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 05 December 2002 05:25 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If he thinks all soldiers are serial killers, then what can I say? There are some insane people here.

Well, I wouldn't call you a murderer, minigun, nor would I condone it. (I notice, nevertheless, that you overdramatize with "baby-killer," "imperialist warmonger," etc., as though this abuse had been a recurring pattern, instead of one (1) shot from one (1) poster).

I would, however, call you...

quote:
An economy with a 63 cent dollar and nearly double the per capita debt we have, where your richest province is poorer than our poorest state, where our supposedly "oppressed" African-Americans are richer as a group per capita than Canadians--that's what you call doing "a hell of a lot better"?

You're starting to believe your government's propaganda--a very bad move in a socialist country.


... a fool, and an abusive one, at that.

Oh, by the way, since you're bound to swear off this forum again, and flounce off dramatically, only to resurface later, I may as well save some time...

*plonk*

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 05 December 2002 05:26 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Laying all the bullshit and extremism aside, both Canada and the US are in fact the best--or certainly among the best--countries on the planet, despite their respective problems. People vote with their feet, and despite all the anti-US and ant-Western rhetoric, both countries are viewed as supremely desirable places to live by billions of people.

If I dare say it, don't feel offence, but this whole 'we are the best thing,' is very American. Countries have differing qualities. Pride in nation, is OK, but by calling your country (or this on) THE Best you are actually insulting a whole lot of people, who may feel that their country has plusses as well.

The Swiss are proud for instance of their traditional neutrality. The Scottish have the best Haggis bar none.

Why the need to qaulify this way? The US has great qualities, but it does not make it THE best. I think most people on this forum want the US to act within the tradition of what makes it great, not go down the road which the rpesent government seems bent on.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 05:29 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, minigun, back up one of your claims. Tell me ONE THING that's better there than here, cause it ain't health care, crime rate or comedians.

Our best hockey players are almost as good as your second-rate ones. Seattle is almost as pretty as Victoria. Now that we've cleaned it up, New York only smells a bit more like a toilet than Toronto.

Our Kentucky bourbon is better than yours (by default). You have a much better gun registry than we have. Your taxes are much higher and therefore fairer to poor people.

Umm... you guys produced Pamela Anderson. I'm running out of stuff here...


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 05:31 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
American music totally kicks ass on Canadian music. So there's one.

That like beer is a matter of taste.

The Swiss neutral .......... kuba rolling around the garden LMAO


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3285

posted 05 December 2002 05:33 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that you could annex Canada, and I am not too sure that isnt in the plan for the future. You consult other countries but do you listen?

As for one thing that is better in the US I think their tax system takes it a little easier on the citizens then ours does. The way I understand it, lower taxes, more deductions, however we are exempt from a lot of Capital gains taxes they have.

Another thing I noticed while in Minneapolis and touring Wyoming, Dakotas, Colorado, entrepreneurial interests appear to be encouraged. Here we throw up road blocks and appear to do everything possible to discourage free enterprise and small business.

The electoral process, I like the primaries as producing a fairer representation of the populace. It would weed out the radical fringe and the "also rans" and we wouldnt have elected officials that most of the population didnt vote for. (I think its called Primaries?)

Three things that come to mind that appearto be different and IMO more equitable in the US


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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Babbler # 3000

posted 05 December 2002 05:33 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I don't think there's any place within the borders of the US that I would like to live. I'm sure there are lots of places I'd like to see and maybe photograph, but I wouldn't live there if you paid me Bill Gates' salary.

I would never willingly subject myself to the inhuman disrespect that the American Government doles out on its people everyday. No thanks.

It's bad enough here in Canada, with the radio shack database business and the security cameras everywhere and the occasional CSIS phone tap, but the American government has crossed the line with their latest Big Brother deals, and that's just the first reason I don't want to live there.

Heck, I don't even want to travel there. I refuse to cross the border, in fact. I spend enough of my hard earned money on American stuff without even trying, I'm not going to give them my tourism dollars too!


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 05:34 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey 'lance: see if you can *plonk* your head up your...

All I can say is that virtually anyone here calling anyone else "abusive" is a true howler. This forum is nothing but abuse--and that includes a ton of internecine sniping, name-calling, etc.

Which is fine. I don't mind. But your totalitarian *plonk* bullshit (trying to silence people) puts you into a category of people that I would rather pretend do not exist.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 05:37 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
would never willingly subject myself to the inhuman disrespect that the American Government doles out on its people everyday. No thanks.

It's bad enough here in Canada, with the radio shack database business


That's it. Just put your tinfoil cap back on, nice and easy... the voices will stop in a few minutes.

"Radio shack databases" -- man I thought the people on the whacked-out right-wing "black helicopter" sites needed Lithium. This is priceless.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 05 December 2002 05:41 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Swiss neutral .......... kuba rolling around the garden LMAO

I thought I had seen the height of arrogant nationalism until I lived in Switzerland! Americans have nothing on the Swiss in that regard.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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Babbler # 2732

posted 05 December 2002 05:41 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You agree to avoid personal insults, attacks and mischievous antagonism (otherwise known as trolling).

Minigun if you come onto a left wing Canadian site then what do you expect. You are either being mischievously antagonistic or you a fool. Take your pick troll or fool.

I truly apologise for my anti-Americanism but you know to hear someone use as a proof of their goodness that they haven't invaded or bombed us yet even thought they could just really pisses me off dickhead. My ancestors have been anti-American for a long time. Something to do with being on the losing side of your FIRST civil war. You know that merchants revolt you claim was a revolution.

The Brits in the Second World War had a saying about American soldiers in the late stages of WWII (it started in 1939 for your edification).
Three things wrong with the American soldier.

Over dressed
Over paid
and
Over here.

Stop spending so much on military might. No one asked your country to be the world's cop you just took the role on. Why does it amaze you that the rest of us don't like a system where international treaties apply to everyone but Americans and America gets to be investigator, prosecutor and executioner in a court where you make up the rules as you go along.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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Babbler # 3000

posted 05 December 2002 05:42 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I thought I had seen the height of arrogant nationalism until I lived in Switzerland! Americans have nothing on the Swiss in that regard.

The difference there is that the Swiss aren't trying to depose leaders in other countries or pushing the UN around to get what they want.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 05:44 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
But during WW2 the Swiss hid behind their neutrality.
From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 05:46 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Americans have nothing on the Swiss

Most Americans are not that nationalistic by nature. No, I'm not kidding. Most of the flag stuff and the patriotic fervor that you see now is a result of 9/11. Don't tell me there would be no national change of character if somebody blew up the Montreal stadium when it was full of hockey fans.

I agree there are plenty of countries that are more nationalistic than the US. I also retiterate that Canadians IMHO should be far more patriotic and demand a much better job from your government. The reading I've done since coming to this site has taught me that despite Canada's current problems, historically Canada was competitive with--and often superior to--the US on many fronts. Canada historically "punched above its weight" internationally--though I fear that is eroding quickly.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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Babbler # 3000

posted 05 December 2002 05:46 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 05 December 2002 05:46 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
mg, I am not a Canadian, although I appreciate you thinking of me as one. I am as American as you are. And I resent your arrogance in attempting to speak for all Americans. You give the term "ugly American" a bad name. We don't all believe in the "live free or die" motto, whatever that means. And if you believe any state has a higher standard of living than any Canadian province, then I suggest you move to Mississippi. I'm sure they'll appreciate your views down there.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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Babbler # 3285

posted 05 December 2002 05:48 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well there you go, I am thinking we can have a reasonable discussion and American opinions are welcome - but once more here is a situation where you can "dress 'em up and take them out but sooner or later they are going to insult their host and be obnoxious".

You stop giving someone the benefit of the doubt when you are proved naive or wrong over and over. i just stopped. Name calling and juvenile insults are apparently culturally ingrained south of the border.


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 05 December 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually minigun, as a fan of bourbon and all things remotely Little Feat-esque, I'll concede music via sheep and Bourbon. Yikes, we're building up to a recipe for total contentment here .

quote:
That like beer is a matter of taste.



Heresy !!!!

No, kubla walda, that American beer is inferior to Canadian beer is a FACT. In fact, ALL non-European beer is inferior to Creemore Springs Lager. This is also a fact.

minigun, instead of whining that we're all anti-American here, why don't you refute or accept the facts that I posted earlier in the thread.

Why apologize for the evil that your governments and corporations commit in your name, putting your asses on the line.

Maybe you're not in this boat, but if one of my buddies died or became a VA hospital basket case so that corrupt chickenhawk billionaires could make more money on oil deals, it'd sure piss me off.
If you really are a soldier, take a look at anything written by Stan Goff, and then tell me who you're helping when there's "collateral damage".


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I truly apologise for my anti-Americanism but you know to hear someone use as a proof of their goodness that they haven't invaded or bombed us yet even thought they could just really pisses me off dickhead

Why apologize for it? I'm not asking anyone to apologize for anything. It does piss me off when it's excessive, but that's my problem. If you hate Americans and America, go for it. After all, we're the last acceptable "politically-correct" target.

I certainly never said that the fact we have not invaded Canada is "proof of our goodness", although it is true that other recent powerful nations (British Empire, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and China) are somewhat less respectful of their neighbor's feeligs (and territory) than we are.

I'm not a "dickhead". Maybe you're thinking of "jarhead", but that's the Corps. I'm an Air Cav "grunt" (101st Airborne, aka "Screaming Eagle"). But not a dickhead, I assure you.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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Babbler # 2776

posted 05 December 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
American music totally kicks ass on Canadian music. So there's one.

I'f your talking Steve Earle, Wilco, Dylan and such, okay. But y'all can keep Christina and your shitty hip hop.

quote:
Our Kentucky bourbon is better than yours (by default).

Ah, but Canadian Rye is the best in the world.

quote:
Do we seem to act unilaterally at times? Well d'uh! We are the only remaining super-power. I mean, we could just unilaterally order Canada around, but for the most part we don't. We could invade Cuba, but we don't.

Well glory be! What a convincing argument that America is really just a bunch of Nice Guys. "We haven't destroyed everything yet, we can't be that bad."
Yeesh.

And FYI, a *plonking* from 'lance is his way of ignoring you, not a call for censorship.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 05 December 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The difference there is that the Swiss aren't trying to depose leaders in other countries or pushing the UN around to get what they want.


The Swiss aren't even a member of the UN. How's that for unilateralism?

Lousy swiss...they think they're so big...


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 05 December 2002 05:56 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
His name is sheep an' he hates da Swiss.

quote:
*Move* over America; there's a new asshole on the map! I've had it up to here with your skiing heroes! I've had it up to here with your mountains! I've had it up to here with your secret *bank* accounts! From now on, Switzerland, your name is mud.

Hey! Got a problem with that, Belgium?

quote:
But not a dickhead, I assure you.

An' thus is a new babble record set: Most Gratuitous Uses of the Word "Dick" in a Serious Thread.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 05:58 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well glory be! What a convincing argument that America is really just a bunch of Nice Guys. "We haven't destroyed everything yet, we can't be that bad."
Yeesh

I agree with you. It is not a virtue to not be aggressive. Nonetheless it is TRUE that we are the world's first massive superpower not to immediately start taking over other countries. We don't do it. That doesn't make us virtuous, just different than your run-of-the-mill global hegemon.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 05:59 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ah, but Canadian Rye is the best in the world.

Good point. Who needs beer. And for the record I drink only Kokanee or beer from the local breweries, although I don't mind Molson's.

kuba, is it Friday yet?


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 05 December 2002 06:03 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nonetheless it is TRUE that we are the world's first massive superpower not to immediately start taking over other countries. We don't do it.

This is Quote Hall of Fame material . Whoo hoo hoo hoo hoo! You make up in laughs what you lack in facts!!!!

Tell us another one, please?

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 06:05 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Tell us another one, please?

What other nation with similar power relative to other surrounding nations has not been aggressive, in modern history?


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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Babbler # 2659

posted 05 December 2002 06:06 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Swiss actually are a member of the UN. East Timor was all set to be the first new UN member of the new millenium, and the bastard Swiss pipped them at the post. Damn them and their clean streets.

David Brin wrote a novel, can't remember the title, where World War Three was the world against the Swiss.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 December 2002 06:07 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Damn them and their clean streets.

They are superb snipers though--just like Canucks.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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Babbler # 3052

posted 05 December 2002 06:08 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What other nation with similar power relative to other surrounding nations has not been aggressive, in modern history?

Are you actually claiming that the U.S. has not been aggressive?


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 05 December 2002 06:08 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
His name is sheep an' he hates da Swiss.

Nuke the swiss and steal their gold!


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 05 December 2002 06:09 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, leaving aside the issue that no other power in modern history has so outclassed all others in military, propaganda and economic power, they've all been just about as aggressive.
That America is an aggressive Empire is one thing.
That they claim to be champions of democracy and human rights is hypocrisy on a scale unmatched by any that I know of in human history.

From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 06:14 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I resent your arrogance in attempting to speak for all Americans. You give the term "ugly American" a bad name. We don't all believe in the "live free or die" motto, whatever that means. And if you believe any state has a higher standard of living than any Canadian province, then I suggest you move to Mississippi. I'm sure they'll appreciate your views down there

That doesn't surprise me one bit. Hell, I live within smelling distance of Harvard, which is infested with haters and pussies. If anything there are more anti-Americans in America then there are in Canada. For a "left-wing" site, babble has more sensible people by FAR than the typical crap on American leftist--or rightist--web sites.

You may not believe that freedom is worth dying for, many Americans don't. Personally I don't think they deserve the freedom they have, but I'm sworn to fight to the death to defend your freedom, no matter what I think of you, or vice versa.

As for Mississippi vs. Ontario. The average income in real dollars is higher in Miss. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. That's what happens when your currency declines by 1/3 in 25 years.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 05 December 2002 06:15 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, and we throw out the "politically correct" sneer. Right on cue.

I wouldn't live in the States. It's gorgeous, but I don't trust the US government as far as I can throw it.

quote:
American music totally kicks ass on Canadian music. So there's one.

That depends on where you look. Canadian bubblegum pop is, on the whole, crappier than American bubblegum pop - because poorly funded imitations are always crappier than originals. But I don't think we're exactly hurting for good rock bands or singer-songwriters. Or opera singers, if that matters to you.

And minigun, it really bloody well frosts me that because we discuss problems here and criticise our government, you think we think Canada is a bad country. We don't. We just have high hopes for it and it's not that exciting to go into thread after thread about how great we are. (Well, to us. Maybe it would be to you.)

And when we do complain about our problems, you, naturally, assume that the solution is to become more like you. When we don't "punch above our weight" like we used to, the solution is to become more like you. When anything goes wrong, it's because we're not more like you.

Well, I think we have some of the problems we have because we're too much like you, because we let you overwhelm us. Or maybe there's a third or a fourth or a fifth option.

"Not being enough like the USA" is not a disease. Try to fit that into your head.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 05 December 2002 06:16 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They are superb snipers though--just like Canucks.

Take that, John Lee Malvo! Boo ya!


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 06:16 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That America is an aggressive Empire is one thing.
That they claim to be champions of democracy and human rights is hypocrisy on a scale unmatched by any that I know of in human history.

Some things just serve as their own refutation.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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posted 05 December 2002 06:17 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Korona beer? Quebec? Mexico? US?

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Kindred ]


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 05 December 2002 06:17 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Minigun the US has bombed how many countries since WWII? I believe it is 19 with over a million dead. Very peaceful we are all underwhelmed by the self restraint shown.

You should do some homework and go back and read the justification of the Germans for invading the Chezk or Poles. Erringly familiar too defending the American way of live. Not Aryan but American values. Who cares if those values are not shared by others. You have the most guns so you must be right. Please don't shoot me I much prefer it when you only pistol whip me to get me to comply.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 06:19 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
hmmmmmmmmm

Swiss Cheese

Fondue

Raclette with baby potatoes and pickles

Wisers......

Party time!!!!


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 05 December 2002 06:20 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That doesn't surprise me one bit. Hell, I live within smelling distance of Harvard, which is infested with haters and pussies.

"Haters and pussies"?! Ye gods. Best you should stick to discussion of your own genetalia, mon ami. Comments like this one make your previous dickhead denial ring hollow.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1425

posted 05 December 2002 06:22 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Personally I don't think they deserve the freedom they have, but I'm sworn to fight to the death to defend your freedom, no matter what I think of you, or vice versa.

But you're NOT defending his freedom or your freedom. You're defending the freedom of a handful of powerful shareholders to pollute your country and others, get the poorest 90% to subsidize infrastructure that they use, spend their lives at hard, boring, repetitive jobs (those who don't serve the private prison system of keep inflation low by being chronically unemployed), so that the top 0.5% of these parasites can rake in more and more. Minigun, do people from your planet really believe that George W. Bush can pronounce "democracy", let alone want to defend it? What would possibly give you that idea?


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 December 2002 06:22 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And when we do complain about our problems, you, naturally, assume that the solution is to become more like you. When we don't "punch above our weight" like we used to, the solution is to become more like you. When anything goes wrong, it's because we're not more like you.


I didn't say that you should become more American. I said you should be more patriotic and demand more from your gov't. By which I meant Canada is--again IMHO--a tremendous nation with huge potential.

Being the world's best peacekeepers (as you apparently once were) is not becoming "more like us" because we are lousy peacekeepers and don't want the job in any case (while recognizing at as vitally important).

I certainly don't want Canada ot become like the US. There is already plenty of US to go around, we don't need more of it. I do want to see Canada be successful and stable. Is that such an insult?


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 06:26 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I didn't say that you should become more American. I said you should be more patriotic and demand more from your gov't.

We are patriotic (just, again, not like you), and we do demand more from our government. Who do you think is writing all the letters to the MPs and the ministers?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 06:28 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But you're NOT defending his freedom or your freedom. You're defending the freedom of a handful of powerful shareholders to pollute your country and others, get the poorest 90% to subsidize infrastructure that they use,

You know what gets about people like you, Sisyphus? I see almost exactly the same bizarro-ville, warped style of perspective from the nut cases on the right, as I see from nut-cases on the left like you. I mean really, this paranoid, evil-empire, corporate global menace crapola is getting pretty tired. If you left- and right- wingnuts ever bothered to take your heads out of, respectively, Z Magazine or the National Review you might come to realize that by and large the world is not all that bad today. Many countries are improving. Poverty is on the decline in many parts of the world, and despite terrorism war is actually less common then at most points in human history.

But as with most "true believers", nothing I or anyone else says will make an iota of difference to your dystopic, dyspeptic, and boring Weltanschauung.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 05 December 2002 06:28 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Contrary to your belief in Canada as a dirt-poor backwater dependent entirely on Uncle Sam's teat, we're a pretty prosperous, happy and patriotic lot up here. Sure, we have our faults but at least most Canadians recognize that. Indeed, a healthy dislike for the government du jour is as Canadian as touques and Tim Horton's. Your confusing your brand of unquestioning, dogmatic faith in your nation's greatness and righteousness with genuine patriotism.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 06:30 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We are patriotic (just, again, not like you), and we do demand more from our government. Who do you think is writing all the letters to the MPs and the ministers?


Well then we're in agreement--I did not mean anything disespectful. Sorry if I was misunderstood.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 06:30 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, what black_dog said.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 06:33 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's what you said:

quote:
Contrary to your belief in Canada as a dirt-poor backwater dependent entirely on Uncle Sam's teat, we're a pretty prosperous, happy and patriotic lot up here.

Here's what I said:

quote:

Canada is--again IMHO--a tremendous nation with huge potential.

Dirt-poor backwater? I didn't say that. I said your dollar had declined, is all. If that is acceptable to you then fine. It does matter at least somewhat to us Americans since we are your largest trading partner and we run a $50B surplus with you.

But making those observations is not equivalent to slagging Canada.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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posted 05 December 2002 06:38 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have relatives in Switzerland, they are pro-nazi, anti-semetic jerks, one made his way to Canada and hooked up with Zundel in fact. A good argument for stricter immigration - the jackass is a teacher.

One is a Swiss banker and the Jewish gold that was appropriated and found its way to Swiss banks is an out right lie ! (according to him) Thank God we dont do family reunions.


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 05 December 2002 06:41 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you left- and right- wingnuts ever bothered to take your heads out of, respectively, Z Magazine or the National Review you might come to realize that by and large the world is not all that bad today.

Oh, mini-candide, everyone knows that. I saw Noam Chomsky say it on TV last month. It gets better because of the "haters and pussies" who fight to end injustice. The world's lovely, but it's not the best of all possible worlds yet. Now could the war-heads please go cultivate their own gardens?


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 06:45 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now could the war-heads please go cultivate their own gardens

Gladly. Once the "haters and pussies" stop getting themselves into bloody genocidal messes.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 06:46 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dirt-poor backwater? I didn't say that. I said your dollar had declined, is all.

Ahem. You also said our richest province was poorer than your poorest state, that your "oppressed" black people were better off than we were, that we earned 50% less money than Americans do (not true, by the way), and that tens of thousands of Canadians rush down to America every year while virtually no Americans would choose to come up here.

"Dirt-poor backwater" may not be what you said, but when you repeatedly tell us how poor we are and how much we owe you (you support our "pathetic economy," you said, else it would collapse), it does tend to accumulate.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 05 December 2002 06:49 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Once again, the Onion rocks.

Click.

quote:
Gladly. Once the "haters and pussies" stop getting themselves into bloody genocidal messes.

Yes that's it, minigun. It's the fault of us dd-blamed socialists, running around genociding ourselves so rough, tough, big-dicked manly men like you have to save us. Ever consider that maybe if your fucking country kept sticking its "big stick" in where it didn't belong, we'd maybe have a better shot at making this world a half decent place? But no, you'd never admit that the U.S of A has ever done wrong. You'v ebeen taught from day one that you're the good guys and when you do take action, it's never for your benefit. I kinda feel sorry for victims of such shameless propaganda, except they always end up such jerks.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 05 December 2002 06:49 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, minigun, no facts, no knowledge, just mindless regurgitation of the Party Line. They're lucky to have you to fight for their oil. I won't let the door hit my ass on the way outta this. Bye now.
From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 05 December 2002 06:51 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Once the "haters and pussies" stop getting themselves into bloody genocidal messes.

OK now i'm confused. I thought the "haters and pussies" you mentioned (last time i type that word) were the dissidents and leftists at Harvard and elsewhere in the US. Who are they now? If you speak of genocide in the world today, places like Cambodia and East Timor, it's often the direct result of US foreign policy.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 06:51 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sure, we have our faults but at least most Canadians recognize that. Indeed, a healthy dislike for the government du jour is as Canadian as touques and Tim Horton's.

Our Tim Bits are better than your Tim Bits....

Ahhhh that's right you don't have Tim Bits

I wish just for once an American didn't make it all about them.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 06:51 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, more realistically swallow, the ideal way to fight injustice would be if progressives would stop being so unrealistic about the occaisional need to use force as a last resort, and instead helped us to determine when that point is reached.

For the sake of argument, I would say that point was without the possiblity of a shadow of a doubt reached when it came to stopping Hitler.

I would also say it was NOT reached with Vietnam (i.e., the war was not justified).

Saddam? There are MANY Iraqis who call for his overhrow. He is a proven mass-murderer, oppresser and supporter of terrorism.

There is a perfectly logical argument to be made that getting rid of Saddam (in favor of nearly anyone else except Uday) would make the world a better place.

Some people seem to believe that no force should ever be used (i.e., pacifism). That would be just peachy in a utopia. Problem is we live in the real world where agression and mayhem have been part of the human condition from day one, and it ain't gonna stop any time real soon, no matter how many times people paint "Ban The Gap" on the asses and moon TV cameras.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 05 December 2002 06:55 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Problem is we live in the real world where agression and mayhem have been part of the human condition from day one, and it ain't gonna stop any time real soon, no matter how many times people paint "Ban The Gap" on the asses and moon TV cameras.

How fortunate for you that you seem to really get off on all that agression and mayhem.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 06:56 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
like Cambodia and East Timor, it's often the direct result of US foreign policy.

What the fuck are you talking about? How did US policy cause East Timor or the Khmer Rouge -- except in the most abstract sense that US policy affects everything to soem degree.

You know people could go around making insane rants about how Canada aids and abets terrorist organizations like Hamas and the Tamil Tigers, and how they are committing genocide against the Inuit. There may be an abstract sense in which those statements are true, but to call Canada a terrorist-supporting, genocidal regime would be obviously crazy to any sane person. So why do you feel it is appropriate to blithely toss off the same shit when it comes to the US?


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 06:57 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, more realistically swallow, the ideal way to fight injustice would be if progressives would stop being so unrealistic about the occaisional need to use force as a last resort, and instead helped us to determine when that point is reached.

Well, you know, we're trying...

Believe it or not, we're not all pacifists on this board. Not by a long shot.

Anyway, we weren't talking about Saddam here, were we?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 07:01 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How fortunate for you that you seem to really get off on all that agression and mayhem.


You know what? Ever heard of the term "chickenhawk"? Well I am not a chickenhawk. I have seen combat. I have killed people and nearly been killed myself. I abhor war--it was the worst fucking experience of my life. But I also know that far worse things than a quick, decisive war happen--the Holocaust being exemple numero uno.

Military force should never be used except as a last resort. But those who claim that it should never be used at all, no matter what, are morally the same as the tyrants and murderers. If you can stop a Holocaust--or even lesser forms of evil--you are obligated to do so. Even if it costs you your own life.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 07:06 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
I would agree with you on some points mini. Yes the Holocaust was a terrible evil. But I don't think for one minute that the US got involved because of the Holocaust, no more than I think that Canada did.

And you have to remember the nature of war has change. In WW2 90 per cent of the casualities were solider who had signed up to put there life on the line. In combat since WW2 90 per cent of the casulaties have been women and children. Its hard to justify your argument when what the US is going to do is bomb the shit out of Iraq from a boat in the Gulf.

Ever here of diplomacy?


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 07:15 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, that was WWI. In WWI, about 10 million people died - 9 million of them soldiers. In WWII, 60 million people died - and again, about 9 million of them were soldiers.

War now looks like WWII, or worse. Huge civilian casualties have become the norm.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 05 December 2002 07:16 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What the fuck are you talking about? How did US policy cause East Timor or the Khmer Rouge -- except in the most abstract sense that US policy affects everything to soem degree.

You know people could go around making insane rants about how Canada aids and abets terrorist organizations like Hamas and the Tamil Tigers, and how they are committing genocide against the Inuit. There may be an abstract sense in which those statements are true, but to call Canada a terrorist-supporting, genocidal regime would be obviously crazy to any sane person. So why do you feel it is appropriate to blithely toss off the same shit when it comes to the US?


Not blithely at all. What's blithe is to say, as Bill Clinton did, "these people have been fighting each other for thousands of years" as if they lived in a vacuum of savagery and "we" were both superior and utterly uninvolved.

The case for US complicity in the genocide in East Timor is well known and well documented. Ford and Kissinger approved the invasion; the US did all it could to prevent any support to East Timor; Jimmy Carter approved an increase in new and more sophisticated weaponry despite the evidence that genocide was taking place; US military aid sustained the army that was committing genocide. All this only started to change when a ragtag band of activists accused the US government of complicity in genocide and started to make a stink about it. The evidence is immense for this charge. Start here.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 07:27 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the correction Smith. I just heard that Statistic on a talk show this week-end..... I was so horrified that I guess I got all mixed up.
From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 07:30 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is pretty horrific.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 05 December 2002 07:30 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What the fuck are you talking about? How did US policy cause East Timor or the Khmer Rouge -- except in the most abstract sense that US policy affects everything to soem degree

Brown hand pull trigger... White hand take money.

Capiche?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 07:33 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The case for Canadian--or European--"complicity" in Rwanda, the Balkans, Somalia, and others can be made using the same arguments.

Canada is "complicit" in vastly increasing the risk of nuclear war between India and Pakistan since the aresenal's of both countries were started with Canadian nuke technology (the US refused to export reactors to Pak for just this reason).

Europe was "complicit" in the mini-Holocoaust that happened between Bosnians and Serbs in the 90's. Their "peacekeeping" forces were so ridiculously useless that the entire cabinet of Belgium (?) resigned in disgrace after revelations that their troops turned tail and fled in fear, allowing a slaughter of 10,000 people to occur in a refugee camp they were "guarding". Europe did SFA about the constant mass-murder, and allowed people like Milosovic to run around at will.

Who put a stop to that? WE DID. We told them to stop or we'd bomb their asses. After a month or so of actual action (instead of weasel-words) the whole sordid affair was finally stopped. Europe is a disgrace for allowing this to happen, and for once again relying on America to fix their problems for them.

East Timor is seen by Indonesians as wholly the fault of the Australians. They were the ones who sent troops there. Fact is they did it for damned good reason.

It's easy to sling mud at the US when you don't actually do a fucking thing yourself to try to stop agression and tyranny. Passivity and "diplomacy" are useless in the face of cold-blooded evil.

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing, etc.

America is FAR from perfect. We KNOW that. But at lease we TRY rather than sitting around with the delusional, infantile, wishful belief that if America would just cease and desist the world would become a peaceful place once and for all.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 December 2002 07:37 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or beer.

This is a common misconception. Various microbrew beers in the States are as good as microbeer counterparts up here. Of course, Bud, Coors, and Busch are crap, as are Labatt and Molson (although Labatt and Molson are slightly superior crap).

Speaking of crap beer, one of my favourite memories in the states is loading up on BEER beer in California. It cost less than bottled water after returning the can for deposit. Didn't 'cause dehydration, either, because it was only about 2.5% alcohol.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 05 December 2002 07:37 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Moredreads said I was a "Karla Holmolka" because I was in the Army. I had no idea what he/she was talking about until I looked it up and found out he was talking about a Candian serial killer.

You volunteered, right?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 07:41 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
2.5% alcohol

That's just about as pointless as bombing a small country back to the Stoneage.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 07:43 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Brown hand pull trigger... White hand take money.

Capiche?


That is pure racist crap. ¿consígalo, idiota?


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 December 2002 07:44 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps. But it is an interesting feeling drinking six beer around a campfire and not feeling the least bit lightheaded. I recommend BEER beer as a suitable replacement for water.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 07:45 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's just about as pointless as bombing a small country back to the Stoneage.

Where did that myth come from? Ever heard of Colt 45? It's shitty beer but it's like 7% alc. There are tons of high-alc beers in the US, and some weak ones. So what?


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 07:47 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually one of my favorite beers is Canadian: Moosehead. Harder to get here now, though.
From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 07:48 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where did that myth come from? Ever heard of Colt 45? It's shitty beer but it's like 7%
alc. There are tons of high-alc beers in the US, and some weak ones. So what?

Touchy touchy ..... I wasn't talking about all US beer, just the Beer Beer aka susbsitute for water.

Speaking of buzz..... I forgot another Canadian thing I can have at that little cheese feast I was planning earlier..... Well, ya know.... It has the MADE IN BC label on it....


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 07:50 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada makes good subway cars.
From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 07:53 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
BC grows good pot.
From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 December 2002 07:55 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where did that myth come from? Ever heard of Colt 45? It's shitty beer but it's like 7%
alc. There are tons of high-alc beers in the US, and some weak ones. So what?

Geez, I try to relate one of my few good memories from the states and you take it as an insult.

*plonk*


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 07:56 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Geez, I try to relate one of my few good memories from the states and you take it as an insult

Sorry, my fault. Didn't read your post carefully enough.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 05 December 2002 07:56 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
America is FAR from perfect. We KNOW that.

But if anyone objects to what you're doing, you pull out the "we're the best, and we'll hurt you if you piss us off, so shut up" argument.

So it doesn't really sound like you know that.

Or maybe you just don't think anyone who's not American has any right to speak.

quote:

But at lease we TRY rather than sitting around with the delusional, infantile, wishful belief that if America would just cease and desist the world would become a peaceful place once and for all.

Well, I don't know whom you're speaking for with that statement. I don't believe that, and neither, I would bet, do most of the people on this board.

We don't buy your propaganda and we don't trust your President. That doesn't mean we hate you or want you to disappear.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 08:05 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But if anyone objects to what you're doing, you pull out the "we're the best, and we'll hurt you if you piss us off, so shut up" argument.


Despite the occaisional over-the-top rhetoric from individuals like me on web discussion forums, I honestly don't hear our government telling anyone that "we're the best" or that "we'll hurt you if you piss us off, etc.".

C'mon.

We will hurt those who want to fly our airliners into our office buildings, or worse. And we will attack countries who purposefully harbor and protect those people. But ANY country in their RIGHT MIND would do the same. We do not appease terrorists.

I would dearly love to see an improving relationship between the US and Canada where we could both use our respective strengths in a complimentary fashion. All I know is that from a military perspective our to countries work together like a well-oiled machine (it's remarkable, really).

It's only recently that I have been aware of real anti-Americanism in Canada. I can honestly tell you that I NEVER in my life heard American's bad-mouth Canada. America LOVES Canada, or at least used to. Things have changed recently, and it's heartbreaking.

One thing I've heard from Canadians down here is that "Americans are totally ignorant of Canada". Well how are we going to rectify that if we don't co-operate, and if some of us don't visit Canadian web sites, travel to Canada, etc. etc.? I mean, it hardly makes sense to claim on the one hand that America is clueless about Canada, and then constantly tell Americans (except the sycophants) to "get off our site" etc. when disagreements arise.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: minigun ]


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 05 December 2002 08:09 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Despite the occaisional over-the-top rhetoric from individuals like me on web discussion forums, I honestly don't hear our government telling anyone that "we're the best" or
that "we'll hurt you if you piss us off, etc.".

What was "you're either fer us or against us" suppose to mean? I took it as a threat.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 05 December 2002 08:10 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What was "you're either fer us or against us" suppose to mean? I took it as a threat

Why? Americans never dreamed that would apply to Canada, or to 95% of the world for that matter. There is a handful of countries that supports al Quaeda either openly or behind the scenes. That remark was aimed at them, certainly not Canada.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 December 2002 08:11 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's not the disagreements that bother me; it's the disrespect. Telling us repeatedly how poor and "pathetic" we are isn't nice, and it makes us want you to go away.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 05 December 2002 08:11 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
How are we suppose to know that. It was uttered by a sociopath.

This is so typical of Bush:

http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/12/05/iraq021205


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 08:19 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Telling us repeatedly how poor and "pathetic" we are isn't nice, and it makes us want you to go away

I shouldn't make remarks like that, you're right. They are hurtful and unfair. So what do you think? That Americans like being called greedy, imperialist, war-mongering boors?

This is all kind of bizarre to me because I never knew that much about Canada except that all the Canadians I met here (I work with several now) are incredibly cool, generally very well-educated and tolerant people. I just always thought of Canada as a great place that I really should visit more often--I think the vast majority of Americans (probably 99.9%) feel, or felt, the same way.

I just always assumed that we had a virtually perfect relationship with Canada and that would not change. I just don't know what to think any more.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 05 December 2002 08:50 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry, my fault. Didn't read your post carefully enough.

That seems to be a habit with you.

quote:
This is all kind of bizarre to me because I never knew that much about Canada except that all the Canadians I met here (I work with several now) are incredibly cool, generally very well-educated and tolerant people.

It didn't happen by accident. We work hard at it.

Minigun, give your head a shake. You need to read more, and not more American rhetoric. You know very little about what your nation has really been up to in the last hundred years. And you know nothing about Canada.

quote:
That Americans like being called greedy, imperialist, war-mongering boors?

Then stop behaving that way then. You have this entire thread.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 05 December 2002 09:02 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your right K.W., it is so typical of Der Fuherer and his scum-sucking spokesman.

If you question them, they accuse you of being an Iraqi sympathizer. They take the attitude: "How dare you question your betters. We're the Bushes. Who are you?"

Fuck them.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3321

posted 05 December 2002 09:17 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sometimes, inflammatory rhetoric has serious enough effect to render apology damn close to moot. And sometimes unintentionally arrogant presentation can accomplish the same thing.

Idealogically, there are excellent reasons for a tighter relationship between a soldier and his country, and a substantially greater degree of identification with the nation, its symbols, and its government, than is commonly found.

Likewise, there are many reasons behind the suspicion and distance that folks "on the left" maintain regarding these same entities. Much of what's involved with activism requires a critical stance; this is the only way to really perceive systemic problems that aren't visible from within. Additionally, governments and systems in place (particularly systems as entrenched as ours) are adept at deflecting, absorbing, and redirecting internal dissatisfaction.

Unfortunately, this is a perfect setup for miscommunication.


From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 09:19 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Minigun, give your head a shake. You need to read more, and not more American rhetoric. You know very little about what your nation has really been up to in the last hundred years.

Thank god for the existence of walking founts of wisdom such you, huh Scout? What the hell would we do without condescending jerks who have all life's answers.

Come back when you're fought a war, fathered and raised kids, started a successful business and still managed to keep reasonably aware and we'll talk.

Dilletante.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3290

posted 05 December 2002 09:26 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You fought in a war minigun? I sure hope that handle isn't the result of some unspeakable wounding.
From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 December 2002 09:26 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I just always assumed that we had a virtually perfect relationship with Canada and that would not change. I just don't know what to think any more.

Americans I have chatted with, on and off line, generally tend to react with surprise and defensiveness when they first find out that not everybody in the world likes the US. Generally the ones who get the most defensive are the ones who have never travelled beyond the US's borders, vote Republican, and think that Mexico is full of dirty sp**s and that Canada is a backwater socialist country. Even the semi-progessives would sometimes overenthusiastically start trashing Canada on the grounds of, you guessed it, the huge disparity in military might. I'm thinking of one person in particular (and not feerit ) who, shall we say, had a tendency to like the demon weed, and regularly called for drug legalization.

It's interesting how even some of the immigrants to the US who I chat with who have wholeheartedly bought into the "American Dream" and have actually benefitted from its opportunities also start internalizing the coarse racism that underlies the American gestalt and will freely trash people on welfare or other forms of government assistance.

So you're not the only one to be befuddled by the anger and spleen that gets vented about the United States when you're not personally responsible for it, since the actions of Dubya Bush are not your actions. Instead of simply reacting with a "USA NUMBER ONE" type attitude, however, the challenge is to pick out the consistencies that show up in what transgressions the US is perceived to have committed.

1. Universally, the US's tendency to interfere in the domestic affairs of other nations is condemned. Examples abound from direct military intervention such as in Vietnam, to covert links to right-wing anti-government revolutionaries such as the Contras in Nicaragua (who operated out of Honduras, incidentally) or even behind-the-scenes support and assistance as in the coup against Salvador Allende in Chile.

2. Generally, the US's tendency to use its economic muscle to further the interests of the corporations that regularly manipulate the political system is widely viewed as being part and parcel of a strategy to use the IMF and World Bank as their advance Trojan Horses. An example is the blocking of food imports from African and South American nations while exporting food surpluses to those nations, driving down food prices and blowing domestic producers out of the water. This usually comes hand-in-hand with IMF dictates that state that no import or export controls may be levied in a country receiving IMF assistance.

3. The US's tendency to spend money on all the "wrong" things is looked upon askance by residents of other nations. Military, police, subsidies, all these can be had for the asking. But properly funding an education system seems to be somewhat problematic.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Psychwarlord
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2021

posted 05 December 2002 09:29 PM      Profile for Psychwarlord        Edit/Delete Post
Minigun - you don't know what to think anymore? I would take what I see here at face value.

First,it's a leftist forum. The forum members don't like the way people live in the US or the way the US conducts itself in the world.

People who don't like us and don't like our policies are not going to come around to your well-reasoned arguments.

It's their forum. We're not Canadians, and they don't want us here to debate with them. It may just be best for us to wish them well and just read what they have to say about us. I've learned a lot about Canada from this forum, and I understand their point of view better as a result.

However, understanding is not the same thing as agreeing. And why do people have to agree, anyway? So, I think you might want to sit back and relax.


From: New England, USofA | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3285

posted 05 December 2002 09:43 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I never knew that much about Canada except that all the Canadians I met here (I work with several now) are incredibly cool, generally very well-educated and tolerant people. I just always thought of Canada as a great place that I really should visit more often--I think the vast majority of Americans (probably 99.9%) feel, or felt, the same way.

I guess I am just fortunate enough to meet all those who think we live in a land of ice and snow, in log houses and igloos, travel by dog sled, have never seen television and are so lucky to live in a pristine wilderness with no industry hence no traffic or pollution.

While working in a self serve gas bar when I was in University I had the pleasure of an American walking in the door bundled up to his eye brows in woolies - and then saying "I dont get it, the radio said it was only 36 degrees out today but it sure as hell feels a lot warmer than that."

Dozens of Americans pulling in for gas, in July with their skis on the roof, towing a ski do and expecting to be able to use them.

I have even been asked on the internet if we have electricity in Canada. No I have 2 chipmunks in a wheel running my computer. Or my all time favourite - isnt the president the head of your country too?

Your education system doesnt teach anything outside of America - Most people in the US couldnt find Canada on a map.


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3321

posted 05 December 2002 09:43 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
..... (edited: this was a response to psychwarlord)

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Daoine ]


From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 05 December 2002 09:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Half of the US couldn't find New Jersey on a map...sorry josh.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 05 December 2002 09:51 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love telling the one about the California couple that walked into the gas station where I used to work and, in all seriousness, asking if one could take a BART type train to Prince George.

Prince George, as the crow flies, is 1000+ kilometers from Vancouver.

Another guy from California couldn't understand simple directions. "Go to Broadway. Turn right. Drive until you see Coquitlam." Yet some how the fella had managed to drive from there, through Washington and Oregon, to Vancouver.

Let's also not forget how many Americans likely spend a stint in a Mexican jail because they forget that Mexico is very strict about gun control, and it is illegal under any circumstances to bring a firearm through the border checkpoint.

Canada is more reasonable in this respect. Canada Customs will, at worst, confiscate your weapon and fine you.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 05 December 2002 09:52 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However, understanding is not the same thing as agreeing. And why do people have to agree, anyway? So, I think you might want to sit back and relax.

Well said. I too have learned a lot. I don't disagree with everything I hear here, but radical lefitsts--just like radical rightists--tend toward bizarre and extreme views. Eric Hoffer's seminal The True Believer captures much of the psychology underlying much of what you see on this forum--but not everybody here is batshit, and nor is radical leftist lunacy confined to Canada. In fact I'd say that Canadian leftists are in general less crazy and more decent than their American cousins, some of whom (Ramsey Clark comes to mind) are fucking evil and make my trigger finger itchy.

Anyhow. I think I'll hang on some .mil sites for a bit. Soldiers may be less sophisticated, but they know how to show respect to each other. It's hammered into 'em.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 05 December 2002 10:10 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, they definitely know how to show respect to each other.

I don't get it, you know. I've talked to other US military and ex-military officers, and they were nothing but friendly, kind and open-minded. They had respect for us; they acknowledged that some others among them didn't. I didn't know that was such a rare quality. I should have thanked them.

quote:
Thank god for the existence of walking founts of wisdom such you, huh Scout? What the hell would we do without condescending jerks who have all life's answers.

Well, we'd have a lot less of you to talk to.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 05 December 2002 11:06 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 05 December 2002 11:07 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
>We will hurt those who want to fly our airliners into our office buildings, or worse.

How do you plan to 'hurt' the ghosts of the suicidal, minigun?

It absolutely amazes me that your country has managed to burn through all the sympathy and goodwill in the world in little more than a year since that terrible event occurred. Does that not cause you even a moment's pause?


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 05 December 2002 11:14 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but not everybody here is batshit, and nor is radical leftist lunacy confined to Canada. In fact I'd say that Canadian leftists are in general less crazy and more decent than their American cousins, some of whom (Ramsey Clark comes to mind) are fucking evil and make my trigger finger itchy.

Thanks for that dose of reason, minigun.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 05 December 2002 11:17 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's their forum. We're not Canadians, and they don't want us here to debate with them. It may just be best for us to wish them well and just read what they have to say about us. I've learned a lot about Canada from this forum, and I understand their point of view better as a result.

However, understanding is not the same thing as agreeing. And why do people have to agree, anyway? So, I think you might want to sit back and relax.


This forum is hardly representative of mainstream thought in Canada. We love you guys. You're family. Who doesn't have an American cousin anyways? I sure do. I've worked all over the states, alone and with groups of Canadians. Every American, almost every American I've ever met has been a decent person. Far more cool people than jerks...just like here! Though America does tend to generate some more colourful characters.

We love to have a laugh at your expense though. When I was down there the insults flew back and forth constantly. I'd like to think of Canada as a country that can take it as good as we can give it, and we can give it pretty good. All this whining about Pat Buchanan bashing us. Boo hoo. Besides, they're all just criticisms of our government and foreign policy, so maybe it's just the Liberal boosters who are offended.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 05 December 2002 11:37 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's your blankety-blank problem today sheepster? Are you trying to win a popularity contest or something?

When will this "sensible" act of yours run its course?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 05 December 2002 11:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
they're all just criticisms of our government and foreign policy,

Exactly, and likewise our criticisms are just of your government and foreign policy. So freakin' take a pill, drink a beer (Canadian not that tainted water you have) and relax a bit. Seems to me when you're not getting your backs up about us criticizing your government you're joining militias because your government is Big Brother anyhow. Oh, brother. That was a joke. Only 20% of the population belongs to militias.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 05 December 2002 11:41 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When will this "sensible" act of yours run its course?

when the drugs wear off


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 05 December 2002 11:47 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't worry, boys, we'll weather this storm of approval and come out as hated as ever.

Saul Alinsky, to his staff, 1972


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 05 December 2002 11:52 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What show was he on again?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3012

posted 06 December 2002 12:13 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I, like most Canadians, can name far many more American friends / relatives than I have digits (20, just like you!) but when it comes to generalizing, we see things like your "Joint Vision 2020" (available on the pentagon website) we get scared, and angry. Not RAGE angry, but concerned-for-the-general-well-being-of-humanity angry. And we, or most of us anyway, react accordingly.

We are, after all, children of empire just like you (the same empire even). The difference is, most of us aspire to no more than our current, if illegitimately built, "middle power" status. And not just because geography and geopolitics deny it, but because we genuinely want neither the risks, responsibilities, nor 'rewards' associated therewith.


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 06 December 2002 01:09 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thank god for the existence of walking founts of wisdom such you, huh Scout? What the hell would we do without condescending jerks who have all life's answers.

Come back when you're fought a war, fathered and raised kids, started a successful business and still managed to keep reasonably aware and we'll talk.

Dilletante.


Your keen way with insults slays me. I mean calling me a jerk and a dilletant, take a deep breath or the stress of such cleverness might short circuit your brain!

You sir, know nothing about what I have done or haven't. Unlike you I don't need to brag about why I have done to put others down. My wit is enough for that. You don't know what I do for a living or if I have children. And you are not even remotely aware you are an arrogant, blind boor or bore or both.

Killing people doesn't make you better than me, especially not under your flag. Or should Canada go make a war, so those of too young to have yet fought in one, may do so, so that you can respect us. How many do I have to kill before I equal your great accomlishments as a human being.

As for calling me a jerk, well I look at the source and I laugh my ass. Your a nut job who thinks anyone who doesn't agree with you is a radical, take your blinders off.

Prick.

quote:
People who don't like us and don't like our policies are not going to come around to your well-reasoned arguments.


This ia a joke, right?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 06 December 2002 01:33 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, Scout, why haven't you fathered any children yet, ya loafer?
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
thetimehascome
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3313

posted 06 December 2002 02:37 AM      Profile for thetimehascome     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FACE THE FACTS
For the Us
For big Oil
For Capitalism
It's Over
Your leaders are dead and useless. Your ideals are arcane and dated.
It may be 20 years, it may be a hundred,but one thing is clear...
the emperor has no clothes...
it ain't fuckin' pretty...
and no way will it last!

From: calgary | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 06 December 2002 03:10 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things -
Of Shoes - and Ships - and Sealing-wax
Of Cabbages - and Kings -
And why the sea is boiling hot
And whether pigs have wings..."

From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569

posted 06 December 2002 03:16 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am the egg-man
I am the egg-man
I am the walrus
Koo-koo-ka-joo

From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 06 December 2002 03:49 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The world is one big oorooney.

Yep ruk hu'reesee
Ku'bisinee e kubu'ba
U'lu hu'mish u mak voutee
Yep ruk hu'reesee
U luh mish wey u luh mish voutee
U luh mish u ruenimoa
Yep ruk hu'reesee
Ku'bisinee e kubu'ba
U'lu hu'mish uv oa voutee
Yep ruk hu'reesee
Oa voutimoa
Kibi'sini kibisee voutee kibisee voutee
Kibisee vuetee
Uee chiku chiku chiku chkie
La ho mak vuenimoa
Mu'saan bu or'uenee
Yep ruk hu'reesee
Ku'bisinee e kubu'ba
U'lu hu'mish u mak voutee
Yep ruk hu'reesee
Aluh mish vuetee u luh mish o'reenee
U luh mish vuetee u lu mi rueneemoa
Yep ruk hu'reesee
Ku'bisinee e kubu'ba
U'lu hu'mish u mak voutee
Yep ruk hu'reesee
U luh mish wey chilee un tu'meytoa saus
Ou voutee hu'reesee
Ku'bisinee e kubu'ba
U'lu hu'mish u mak vuetee
Yep ruk hu'reesee
Lu hom la ho mak votimoa
Ki'bisee ni kibisee voutee kibisee ruetee
Kibisee lam no ruenee ue o'ruetee
La ho vueteemoa
Ie suepu vueteemoa ku
U litul spies o mak vozee
Yep ruk hu'reesee
Ku'bisinee e kubu'ba
U'lu hu'mish u mak vuetee
Yep ruk hu'reesee.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 06 December 2002 03:51 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, Arch, what was that?
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 06 December 2002 10:02 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sing this song to the tune of: "If You're Happy And You Know It Clap Your Hands"

If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.

If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb Iraq.

If the terrorists are Saudi

And the bank takes back your Audi

And the TV shows are bawdy,

Bomb Iraq.

If the corporate scandals growin', bomb Iraq.

And your ties to them are showin', bomb Iraq.

If the smoking gun ain't smokin'

We don't care, and we're not jokin'.

That Saddam will soon be croakin',

Bomb Iraq.

Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq.

From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.

So to hell with the inspections;

Let's look tough for the elections,

Close your mind and take directions,

Bomb Iraq.

While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq.

Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.

If the ozone hole is growing,

Some things we prefer not knowing.

(Though our ignorance is showing),

Bomb Iraq.

So here's one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq,

From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.

Saying no would look like treason.

It's the Hussein hunting season.

Even if we have no reason,

Bomb Iraq.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 06 December 2002 11:05 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Okay, Arch, what was that?

Slim Gaillard McVouty, cool cat.

Surely you're hep to his jive on "Dunkin' Bagel"?

"Dunkin' bagel
(bis)
Splash, in the coffee.

Matzoh ball
Matzohballorooney
Gelfilte fish
Gelfiltefisha vootey
Pickled herring
A pickledherring - reeney
Locks a rooney
Locks a rooney"

Have you read Kerouac's "On the Road"? Slim's in there.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 06 December 2002 11:10 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fighters for liberty, fighters for power
Fighters for longer turns in the shower
Don't tell me I can't fight, 'cause I'll punch out your lights
And history seems to agree that I would fight you for me

So we read and we watched all the specially selected news
And we learned so much more 'bout the good guys
Won't you stand by the flag? Was the question unasked
Won't you join in and fight with the allies?
What could we say...we're only 25 years old?
With 25 sweet summers, and hot fires in the cold
This kind of life makes that violence unthinkable
We'd like to play hockey, have kids and grow old

Fighters for Texaco, fighters for power
Fighters for longer turns in the shower
Don't tell me I can't fight 'cause I'll punch out your lights
And history seems to agree that I would fight you for me
That us would fight them for we

(from Fruvous)


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 06 December 2002 12:17 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Can -- can I put in somethin' like ... this is 'American
Music', take one.... 1, 2, 3, 4!"
Do you like American music? I like American music
Don't you like American music, baaaabyyyy
I want you to hold me, I want your arms around me
I want you to hold me, baby
Did you do too many drugs? I did too many drugs
Did you do too many drugs too, baby
You were born too late, I was born too soon
Every time I look at that ugly moon
It reminds me of you, it reminds me of you
Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh
I need a date to the prom, would you like to come along
Nobody will go to the prom with me, baby
They didn't like American music, they never heard American music
They didn't know the music was in my soul, baby
You were born too soon, I was born too late
But every time I look at that ugly lake, It reminds me of meeee
(d'you like American music)
It reminds me of meeee

(d'you like American music)
It reminds me of meeee
Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh
D'you like American music? (We like American music)
I like American music (Baaaabyyyyy)
D'you like American music (We like all kinds of music)
But I like American music best (Baaaabyyyy)
You were born too late, I was born too late
But every time I look at that ugly lake, it reminds me of me
It reminds me of meeee (do you like American Music)
It reminds me of meeee (I can hear the music)
It reminds me of meeee (sweet, sweet music)


Violent Femmes


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 06 December 2002 12:20 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
I just heard on the radio that a report out of the US puts the cost of was with Iraq at TWO TRILLION $$s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think what you could do in a country with that kind of money in terms of education, health and social programs!!!!!!!!! Every Woodwards could become a home.

quote:
I have even been asked on the internet if we have electricity in Canada. No I have 2
chipmunks in a wheel running my computer.

I generally can tolerate Americans but we had one of their big war ships in town and the place was crawwling with soliders. And I was in a bad mood. This American couple (young too - so it wasn't like they were senile) asked me how they could get back to the BRIDGE that they took to get on the Island. I said, "you mean the ferry." "No we took a big bridge to get here."

"Really. Oh you mean the one up in Nanaimo."

I gave them directions for a little tour of the Island, and the Nanaimo ferry terminal.

D'OH


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 06 December 2002 12:40 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why can't I shake the thought that the Two Trillion and the imagined bridge are deeply, deeply related....?
From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 06 December 2002 12:50 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
too long! so long!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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