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Author Topic: Affirmative Action
David Stapley
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posted 03 December 2002 01:25 PM      Profile for David Stapley        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What are your opinions on affirmative action in American college and university admissions? Should they be repealed because they are a form of 'reverse discrimination' or should they remain in place to increase diversity in the student body?

Your comments please...

Affirmative Action Case Awaits Supreme Court Review


From: Madoc, ON | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 01:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Many admissions boards know that there are many more factors than simply high marks that are indicators of whether a person will do well in university. Someone who has come through a lot of adversity in high school to achieve a 70% average might have the same strength of character to make it through university as a person with all the advantages in the world who sails through high school with a 95% average. For instance, it would be a lot harder getting through high school as a black kid living in a ghetto than it would be as a white prom queen in suburbia. Does this amount to affirmative action? Probably. But the point is to get kids who can handle the curriculum, and probably a kid who had to bust hir ass in high school to get through will be just as successful in a university environment as a kid who sailed through. Because a lot of kids I knew in university who never had to work for high marks in high school got the shock of their lives when they got to university and discovered, holy cow, you've got to WORK here.

I took an LSAT course on the weekend and we talked a lot about admissions to law school, and what they're based on. The instructor told us that they evaluate mature students quite differently because it has been demonstrated over the years that mature students on average score terribly on the LSAT, but perform wonderfully through law school. Therefore, they will take that into account when considering a mature student's application even if their LSAT score is considerably below the school's standard. Affirmative action? Probably. But I think that just makes good sense.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 03 December 2002 01:39 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First comment: *yawn*.

Second Comment: Have the social conditions in You Nice States changed sufficiently to address the problems for which such policies were introducted in the first place?


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Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 02:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know - maybe there's a better way of dealing with it than that "point scale" from the U of M.

They could have grades be part of it, but give lots of points for "life experience" and "experience overcoming challenges".

That way the rich white prom queens who feel they are entitled to admission and are suing in order to make it so will perhaps have an advantage for having higher academic marks and for having had more opportunity to work at summer jobs in Daddy's law firm or in community groups instead of having to work a couple of retail jobs to pay the rent. BUT, a poor black kid who may have gotten worse marks and less community volunteering due to having the work his or her way through school would have a strong advantage for being able to demonstrate triumph over adversity.


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jeff house
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posted 03 December 2002 07:18 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
University admissions in the US are not based on merit. For example, consider that many school favour applicants whose parents went to that same school. This is unlikely to favour black students, especially at the better schools, or anywhere which kept blacks out, as did most southern schools.

Even if it were merit based, I would still favour affirmative action, because so many other areas of American experience are not merit based, but rather based on race.

Like racial profiling, which has gone on for decades, and which effects the self-esteem of the victims.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 03 December 2002 07:44 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like action, and I like affirmation, so I'm all for it!
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SamL
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posted 03 December 2002 08:23 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Despite the fact that I would likely beneift from affirmative action, I would have to say that I am against it.

I see it as nothing more than an attempt to hide the real cause of why there are fewer minorities pursuing higher education... and that is that failing schools and failing school districts have large numbers of minority students. It should be no surprise then, that if the system were based solely on merit that these students would be at a disadvantage. So why not fix the problem berfore it starts, and then see if racial disparities are still an issue?

The other problem that I have with affirmative action is that while, of course, GPA's can be inflated/deflated depending on local conditions, and that standardized tests aren't all that ehy were once chalked up to be, they are one heck of a lot more objective than haveing an admissions officer looking at one's childhood and deciding that they have developed "strength of character" sufficient enough to warrant admission.

I personally would not want to go to university in three years time and think that my race played a part in my admissions. I have been working my ass off in school, at first with parental prodding, to achieve my academic results as they are, and I am damned proud of it. To me, it is all a waste the instant the admissions officer looks at my skin colour and thinks "Visible minority... in!"

I am all in favour of increased diversity. I just don't feel that affirmative action is the right way to go about it.


From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 December 2002 09:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Affirmative action in the sense of hiring quotas are illegal in some states due to circuit court rulings anyway.

For the most part it simply means actively pursuing qualified candidates from among minorities. All the bugaboos and horror stories are just that. The only time a company will actually be successfully sued is if there is documented discrimination against qualified applicants even if an affirmative action hiring policy is in effect.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 December 2002 09:11 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If affirmative action is used to redress documented discrimination, I am for it. If not, I have real problems with it. One of the problems I have is that it prevents people from forming class consciousness. Why should an upper middle class African-American get preferential treatment over a lower middle class ethnic white?

I would prefer if affirmative action was based on class, regardless of race, rather than on race alone.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 03 December 2002 09:40 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I see it as nothing more than an attempt to hide the real cause of why there are fewer minorities pursuing higher education... and that is that failing schools and failing school districts have large numbers of minority students. It should be no surprise then, that if the system were based solely on merit that these students would be at a disadvantage. So why not fix the problem berfore it starts, and then see if racial disparities are still an issue?

Perhaps there is more than one cause to the stated problem, and a complex mapping of factors at work behind it. It does seem, I agree, that the policies are not particularly systemic -- meaning they don't seem to address the cause or causes in a particularly leveraged way.

Of course addressing the underlying cause or causes would be preferable. Can you name an American political party that holds any seats in the House or Senate that is really prepared to put forward an agenda to do just that? (Hint: this is a trick question.)


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feerit
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posted 03 December 2002 09:59 PM      Profile for feerit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Race issues in the US are just about bandaids and "Sweeping it under the rug" , so to speak.

Nobody does want to deal with the *real* problems that racial discrimination brought, and the problems that it still brings (albeit reduced from the pre-civil-rights era). It's all about doing a little teeny bit here and a teeny bit there to make it look like things are being "done", without doing anything that upsets anybody's "sensibilities", so to speak.

In the end I'd come down for affirmative action programs, because the goal of even seeming to have redress is better than just saying "Who gives a crap".

I have to agree 100% with josh however, I'd be MUCH, MUCH more for a class-based affirmative action program. You'd do THREE things that current programs don't do and elimiate a few problems.

1) Wake people up to class' existance and where they relate to such

2) Would do the original intention, ie, help minority students as they'll generally fall into the "helped by class" status

3) REALLY GET SOMETHING DONE.

I do get sorta sick of the constant "REVERSE DISCRIMINATION" claims that white students make, however. I mean come the hell on. I don't expect people to "like" finding out that they were turned down and a possibly lower-scoring minority student was admitted, but it's not reverse DISCRIMINATION.

As discrimination would be simply not processing applications from white applicants. Now someone would try and say "Well historically black universities do that" and well I never saw a rash of white students wanting to go there anyway, being that 95% of the rest of colleges, especially if they can't add some sort of "diversity" to campus, wouldn't be accesible for minority students.

Back to the point, its not like what happened around here. The University of Georgia used to have a race "rider" in the application consideration process. Someone got more points if they were from a minority (sort of like how immigration works, ie, get a certain amount of points and you're in if space is available) , and that was that. A federal appeals court overturned it after lots of white students complained. Now minority enrollment at UGA has fallen from ~ 20% of each class to only about 10% this year. Giving someone an extra "bump" isn't discrimination, especially when it's in the context of attempting SOMETHING (maybe not complete enough and in the right fashion) to redress wrongs, lots of which were done in the arena of higher education.

It's just a theme in US politics at the moment, that whites and especially white men are being repressed by the Liberal Elite and forced to bear the brunt of discrimination by hateful and spiteful "civil-rights burecrats" who if in power would ban whites from being employed, and the "feminists" who would kill all men. This is a big Republican rallying point, most assuredly.


From: Outside of Atlanta, otherwise known as loonyland | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 03 December 2002 10:13 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Georgia context is interesting because Georgia was one of the states which, after emancipation, made it a criminal offence to teach a black person to read or write.
From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 10:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I personally would not want to go to university in three years time and think that my race played a part in my admissions. I have been working my ass off in school, at first with parental prodding, to achieve my academic results as they are, and I am damned proud of it. To me, it is all a waste the instant the admissions officer looks at my skin colour and thinks "Visible minority... in!"

Well, SamL, I don't want to get personal here, but I think maybe if you were a visible minority growing up in a ghetto somewhere, you might feel differently about it. Sure, you work your ass off in school - but do you have to dodge street gangs on the way to and from school, or work a couple of part time jobs to help your parents pay the rent, or have parents who left you alone every night without supervision in a bad neighbourhood because they had to work?

You mention parental prodding over your school work - what if you grew up with a single mother in a ghetto, and she was too bone tired from working long hours at a minimum wage job, or not even home in the evenings because of work, to "prod" you? What if you grew up with completely uneducated parents with absolutely no money, and no idea about how to encourage you in your education?

Do you REALLY think you did it all on your own?


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SamL
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posted 03 December 2002 11:13 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fair enough Michelle. I have been lucky. Very lucky, for which I am thankful.

But nonetheless, in the scenario that you just outlined, what is the real problem in there? What is the root cause of the issue...?

I didn't do it on my own, but mypoint is that affirmative action as it stands doesn't address the real problem, which is the discrepency in education at the elementary and secondary level between schools in different areas.


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paxamillion
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posted 03 December 2002 11:41 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If we're going to use the notion of "real problem" here, then I'd challenge you to think of the reasons why that discrepancy takes place. Then I'd ask you to think about the reasons for those reasons.
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clersal
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posted 03 December 2002 11:53 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I would prefer if affirmative action was based on class, regardless of race, rather than on race alone.


Well, people who are not white are predominantly poor. Not poorer in living conditions. Poor is poor. However the other stumbling block is blatant racism.

So it makes sense because of majority. It would be nice if it could be based on class only. Instead if we rid ourselves of poverty racism disappears.


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
David Stapley
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posted 04 December 2002 08:17 AM      Profile for David Stapley        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I personally would not want to go to university in three years time and think that my race played a part in my admissions.

That is one of the major concerns coming from the African American community.

quote:
"Everybody who is a person of color in this country has benefited from affirmative action. There has not been anybody who has gotten into college on their own, nobody who's gotten a job on their own, no one who's prospered as a businessman or a businesswoman on their own without affirmative action." Atlanta Mayor Bill Campbell April, 1996No Affirmative Action, No Black Jobs?

Can you imagine yourself being any person outside of a white male being labeled as such?


From: Madoc, ON | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
David Stapley
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posted 04 December 2002 08:25 AM      Profile for David Stapley        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is an interesting passage in the previous article I linked to:

quote:
A recent article in "Destiny" magazine, the black conservative monthly, shows that the black-white income gap narrowed well before affirmative action took hold. In 1959, among intact families outside the south, a black family earned 78% of what a white family earned. Ten years later, black families earned 91% of that of a white family. In 1950, black college educated women earned 91% of the income of their white counterparts. By 1970, the earnings of black college educated women exceeded that of their white counterparts by 25%.

No Affirmative Action, No Black Jobs?


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jeff house
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posted 04 December 2002 12:19 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
By 1970, the earnings of black college educated women exceeded that of their white counterparts by 25%


I am not going to chase down the stats, but find this extremely unlikely.

However, it may be true if it includes all women,
including those not participating in the work force. The black "participate" rate far exceeds the rate for whites, and so if you put all white women next to all black women, you find that 50% more of the black women are employed. White women are more likely to be in graduate school, or in a middle class home where there work is unpaid.

So, by statistical legerdemain, you can show that "black female college grads earn more than whites do."


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SamL
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posted 04 December 2002 12:58 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Reason for the discrepancy.... I'd say that there are two.

1) Discrepancy in the quality of education at the elementary and secondary levels and

2) Racism on the part of college admssions officers.

Trying to fix the first is do-able, albeit requiring a large infusion of money and planning into the system. That would leave us with racism.

Trying to eliminate racism, or otherwise compensate for it, while a worthy cause - one that I would wholeheartedly support - is implausible at best.

No progressive education system can completely eradicate racism. I just don't see it happening. While there may be some minority students who are disadvantaged because of their race, I would conjecture that universities and colleges would make the effort to weed out racist employees, such as admissions officers. If not, then there is a much bigger problem at hand.

"Disadvantage due to race" is not something that can be quantified, or even suffieciently qualified, for post-secondary institutions to make an informed decision about the impact on the applicant, and the implications for their future. We have seen that some of these universites used quotas, or point systems. These are numerically-based evaluation schemes. With more and more high-schoolers going on to higher education, these institutions need something concrete with which they can make decisions.

The effects of racism are so complex, varied, and in many cases hidden, that I do not feel that it is right to try to quantify them. Are we doing a service to anyone by trying to pretend to be able to know, down to an exact number, the effects of her/his background on their ability to succeed in a university?

If these effects could truly be established and quantified to something uniform, then I would have to reconsider the issue. But they can't.

I think that the solution which josh put forward: base it on class, or even on which school they graduated from... make a ranking system for school districts if need be. But giving an advantage to some people because of their race, even if to make up for a disadvantage they have because of their race, is something that I don't think that I can ever agree with. The effort should be to remove that initial disadvantage, not to figure out some arbitrary way to play "Know-All" and declare just how these disadvantages affect minorites.


From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sean Purdy
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posted 04 December 2002 01:13 PM      Profile for Sean Purdy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The question of affirmative action has arisen here in Brazil recently. Both candidates for president, Lula and Jose Serra, promised quotas for black and poor students (the latter defined in the Brazilian case as those who go to public schools).

It`s very controversial here even among the left. Leading movement activists, including blacks, have argued against quotas in the universities favouring instead a system of affirmative action for poor students.

It seems to me there is no reason you cannot argue for quotas for black and poor students as a way to redress real grievances and cut against racism at the same time as arguing that much more funding needs to be pumped into elementary and secondary schools. It`s not an either or proposition.

Opposing affirmative action not only ignores long-standing discrimination against minorities but it lines you up with the most disgusting right-wingers who want to keep the system intact.


From: São Paulo, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
David Stapley
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posted 04 December 2002 01:19 PM      Profile for David Stapley        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The practice of affirmative action in employment and admissions policies is now being extended to the selection of writers to be studied at universities. At Stanford, race, gender, and nationality of authors are to be considered in book selection and not merely the quality of their work. Requiring that books be selected on the basis of such criteria is absurd. The selection of books should be based on merit rather than on the race, gender, or national origin of the authors. The effect of affirmative action based on quotas rather than merit is that quality suffers, regardless of whether the issue is employment, college admissions, or book selection.

The phrase "affirmative action" was first used in a racial discrimination context in Executive Order No. 10,925 issued by President John F. Kennedy in 1961. This executive order indicated that Federal contractors should take affirmative action to ensure that job applicants and employees are treated "without regard to race, creed, color, or national origin. " The civil rights legislation of the 1960s followed in the same vein.

Kennedy's executive order implied equal access and nothing else. The system that has evolved since is a perversion of the original intent of affirmative action.

Affirmative action as it has and is being applied also promotes the hiring of less skilled workers. It sometimes forces employers to choose the best of the minority workers they can find, regardless of whether they have the required job skills. For example, Duke University recently adopted a resolution requiring each department to hire at least one new black for a faculty position by 1993. However, only six blacks received Ph.D.'s in mathematics in 1987 in all of the U.S., casting doubts as to whether it would be possible for each department to find a well-qualified black, much less hire one.

A shift in emphasis from equality of prospective opportunity toward statistical measures of results was already under way by the time the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was debated in Congress. Quotas and the right of minorities and women to have a "correct" percentage of their population employed have since become rallying cries for civil rights activists. Affirmative action as it has been applied is detrimental to the operation of the job market and to the groups it is supposed to benefit.


From: Madoc, ON | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sean Purdy
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posted 04 December 2002 01:19 PM      Profile for Sean Purdy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Saml

You argue rationally and eloquently about the reasons for opposing affirmative action but you are ignoring the political context of long-standing racism and racial politics today.

Support for affirmative action is support against racism and a racist system. It`s an attempt to redress well-documented historical wrongs and current discrimination.

Opposition to affirmative action is part and parcel of an attack on the poor and minorities. Indeed, many of the same bigots who oppose af action also support cutting public education, the welfare state and bashing unions. They use the ruse of fairness to mask their bigotry.


From: São Paulo, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
David Stapley
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posted 04 December 2002 01:24 PM      Profile for David Stapley        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Opposing affirmative action not only ignores long-standing discrimination against minorities but it lines you up with the most disgusting right-wingers who want to keep the system intact.

Would those "disgusting right-wingers" reside in the very minority groups who Affirmative Action addresses because they don't even want it!


From: Madoc, ON | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 December 2002 01:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
None of them want it David?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SamL
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posted 04 December 2002 01:52 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks Sean.

quote:
It`s an attempt to redress well-documented historical wrongs and current discrimination.

The first question I thought of when I read this was "Does affirmative action create any victims?" This is highly debatable, but the nature of the system as it is in the States is such that it could potentially lead to white students - from prom queen to poor boy - not being accepted at a particular university, the disadvantage being their race. the impact of a university rejection on the rejectee - white or black or green or pink or brown - varies depending on a lot of circumstances, but I have seen it range from wistful disappointment to and utter shattering of their self-esteem.

Thus, these peoples lives, that is, those who potentially would be denied admission because they did not earn "points" or other assistance because of their race, would have their lives affected - for good or for bad we don't know, it depends on the person - because of the sins of their ancestors.

quote:
Support for affirmative action is support against racism and a racist system

Is it the only way? Is it the best way?

quote:
Opposition to affirmative action is part and parcel of an attack on the poor and minorities. Indeed, many of the same bigots who oppose af action also support cutting public education, the welfare state and bashing unions. They use the ruse of fairness to mask their bigotry.

That may be in the case of some conservatives, but I am against cuts in education and in welfare. I am somewhat pro-union. If you are saying that it applies to me, then I submit that you are wrong.

What's fertilizer for the Shrub is not necessarily good for me.

quote:
Opposing affirmative action not only ignores long-standing discrimination against minorities but it lines you up with the most disgusting right-wingers who want to keep the system intact.

The ACLU has sided with the KKK and neo-Nazi groups concerning their right to congregate. Does this line them up with anti-Semitic racist homophobic Hitler-admirers?

Edited for spelling and grammar.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: SamL ]


From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 04 December 2002 01:56 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sometimes bad people can be right for the wrong reason. That many on the right oppose affirmative action does not mean one should automatically refrain from opposing it. I made it clear that I do not oppose all affirmative action. Where there has been documented discrimination, I support affirmative action. I simply do not support a blanket application of affirmative action. That someone unappreciative of nuances in positions may view that as "lining up with the right" does not deter me.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 04 December 2002 07:12 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that in behind this controversy are a number of deeply held societal assumptions about education -- that going to a university is where one gets an education for example. Another is that holding a degree is an indication of having an applicable knowledge base that can be used effectively on a job. These aren't always so.

I think our society is too dependent on universities, colleges, and other "institutions of learning" and needs to explore and value other avenues.


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minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 07:21 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My sons will be attending college in 7 and 11 years. They are half black / half white. They both do well in school although for several years we lived in a "poor" inner-city neighborhood and they attended schools that were considered "challenged".

Now we live in an upper middle-class neighborhood. Where do kids like mine fit in? This situation is becoming far more common in the US as intermarriage (finally) begins to blur traditional race categories.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: minigun ]


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 04 December 2002 07:44 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think our society is too dependent on universities, colleges, and other "institutions of learning" and needs to explore and value other avenues.

Word.

I don't know how I feel about affirmative action. On the one hand, I think disadvantaged people should have all the help they can get - on the other, if you let someone into college or a job when s/he really isn't ready for it, does that help?

My uncles own a plant in Hamilton, and I seem to remember hearing about a position at that plant going vacant for months because they needed someone with Native status to help them meet their quota, and no such person was available. And while I do believe discrimination is real, I'm not sure how situations like that make anything better.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 07:51 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
while I do believe discrimination is real, I'm not sure how situations like that make anything better

There are certainly different schools of thought within the various minority communities. John McWhorter, professor of linguistics at the University of California at Berkeley, is a staunch opponent of affirmative action. His book Losing The Race puts forth compelling arguments that affirmative action can be damaging in the long run. He puts more emphasis on trying to change the phenomenon whereby some black youth consider learning to be a "white thing" and where academically successful black kids are ostracized by their peers. I've seen this first hand at my kid's school in Dorchester, which was about 80% African-American.

Personally support affirmative action in some cases. Of note though is the fact that the US Army is over 30% black (including officers) and it is probably the least race-conscious institution I have encountered. The color of your skin doesn't help or hinder as you slog through mud and rain with 80 lbs on your back for 9 straight hours.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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