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Author Topic: Deeds speak louder than words when we mouth "peace!"
WingNut
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posted 03 December 2002 09:34 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Its walls bear testimony to Jewish claims on the street with Stars of David and exhortations to kill all Arabs sprayed on Palestinian property.

Hebron Land Grab
The suicide bombing recruiters must be as thrilled as the extremist settlers.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 09:54 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Israeli army yesterday pasted notices ordering property seizures and house demolitions the length of a street in Hebron that Ariel Sharon wants to use to link two belligerent Jewish settlements.

The order horrified but did not surprise the residents of Al-Haram street after the prime minister's call three weeks ago for what Palestinians say amounts to ethnic cleansing and a land grab. But they still do not know whether their homes are to be destroyed or handed over to settlers.


I read a heart-breaking book when I was a kid, called "I am Rosemarie". It was about a Jewish girl's journey from her home in Holland through several concentration camps throughout Europe.

Anyhow, I remember one scene vividly, and that was when SS officers came to her house to inventory everything they had in their home and then gave them two days to evacuate their home. The officer sneered at Rosemarie, telling her, "No more pink silk sheets for Jewish brats!"

And then when they left, their home was taken away and presumably given to someone from "the master race" to live in.

Sad isn't it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 10:38 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, what is your point? Why the necessity of this comparision? I reject the tactic used here if all the facts are as stated. But your need to purposely push my button because you know the tender spot of outrage I feel when such comparisions are made saddens me more than I can say.


Tell me this Michelle, if a cousin or brother or sister of yours was murdered by a gang of thugs would you appreciate others continually bringing up these thugs and comparing them to others you feel hardly deserve it? Your feelings may be wrong but surely if these people knew it caused you pain surely they might find another comparision.

Just give it some thought. I really didnt expect this from you. Despite the fact that we disagree on many issues, for the most part, you consistantly demonstarted a sensitivity to others here. At least you stayed away from personal hurt...

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 December 2002 10:42 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe, Mishei. that book brought out in her strong emotions, sympathy and emapthy with the girl of the story. And maybe reading about the ethnic cleansing above brought back that memory and those feelings. Empathy, mishei, is a powerful thing. It allows humans to know the suffering of others. You should try it sometime and maybe then you would see that the suffering of the Palestinians is not so unlike the suffering of your ancestors.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 December 2002 10:46 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Comparisons between the SS and the IDF are needlessly harsh, despite the fact that there may be some surface simillarities. The policies of Israel are more akin to the genocide of the native population of North America.

The SS was inspired by self aggrandizing spite directed at all sub races. Israel persecutes Arabs because they are in the way, not because of general policy of race hatred, though this may be changing.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 10:51 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The policies of Israel are more akin to the genocide of the native population of North America.
This is offensive over the top hyperbole at its utmost worst. You know that Israel is in no way practising GEOCIDE against Palestinians. This is the worst kind of anti-Israel bashing I have seen here in months.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 December 2002 10:53 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wrong.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 December 2002 10:59 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do not think Israel is practicing genocide, either. And I don't think the comparison is helpful. Because if it is said they are doing someting so incredibly evil, then anything less than that, what they really are doing, is relatively not so bad. And the focus is lost.

Edited to add: I also think it is unhelpful because it serves to alienate Israelis who would otherwise be sympathetic to Palestninian suffering. It redirects the discussion from the plight of the Palestinians to the nature of Israeli occupation. And the latter is far more polarizing, I think, than the former.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 03 December 2002 11:09 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To be fair Mishei, I don't think that the intent of Michelle's post is to compare the IDF and the Nazis. I know that for myself, whenever I hear about people being forcibly displaced from their homes, whether they are Palestinians, Bosnians, Kosovars, or whomever, I can't help but compare it to the Jewish experience in World War because that's the frame of reference I have. Stories of what Jews went through in the holocaust are, for many people, their first look at the kinds of atrocities people are capable of inflicting upon each other.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 11:11 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Wingnut, must be the dawn of a new day, we agree.

For some added emphasis I found this link which gives good advice from Holland as to avoiding the antismitic trap.

10 tips to avoid antisemitism


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 December 2002 11:48 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I do not think Israel is practicing genocide, either.

OK then, so you think that my use of the word genocide to describe the gerneal course of action by series of Israeli governments since 1947, is innaccurate.

In that case what exactly would you say that Israel is doing, if not genocide?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 11:49 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Michelle, what is your point? Why the necessity of this comparision? I reject the tactic used here if all the facts are as stated. But your need to purposely push my button because you know the tender spot of outrage I feel when such comparisions are made saddens me more than I can say.

But I didn't compare them! Show me where in my post that I said, "The IDF are like the Nazis." You won't find it there. I just happened to be thinking about that book, that's all, and I thought I would share the story with you.

Really, these insinuations about what I'm supposedly saying are terribly childish. Either find the direct place where I compared them or retract your accusation!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 11:54 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, we are on a thread talking about Israel, the issue reflects directly on the situation,,,while there was no direct comparision the insinuation seemed clear to me.If you are saying, in all honesty that one thing had absolutely nothing to do with the other, I will accept that.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 03 December 2002 12:11 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
10 tips to avoid antisemitism

Just like this seems like a clear insinuation to me.

I will agree that what the Israeli admistration is doing is not genocide. The mass slaughter of 800,000 Rwandans over a 1 month period is genocide to me.

However, if we fail to analyze history and draw certain parallels, then we are all doomed to repeat it.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: xrcrguy ]


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 12:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Just like this seems like a clear insinuation to me.
An insinuation of what, all I did was post an interesting piece that had nothing offensive about nazis and a lot of decnt points that many might find of interest.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 December 2002 12:21 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The problem is I can't think of any good analogies to the Soviet Union except for the liquidation of the kulaks (prosperous farmers) which had origins in class rivalry, not race hatred.

There is a tangential similarity but not a very good one, which arises out of Sharon's expansive access to the media on an "on demand" basis. This is reminiscent of the strong state control over the media in the USSR.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 12:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, what you're saying is this:

I posted something about a terrible thing that happened in one place (forced relocation and expropriation of someone's home), and I placed it right next to something about a terrible thing that happened in another place (forced relocation and expropriation of someone's home). And because they were posted right next to each other, in exactly the same context, you didn't really need to hear me say, "And my conclusion is that the IDF are doing something that the SS did, and now I am making a direct comparison." Because that was implied, right?

Okay. Good. Agreed, that's exactly what I did.

Now, how about you admit to something, Mishei. How about you admit that when you post articles about the left being anti-Semitic because they oppose Israeli occupation or even the political ramifications of Zionism, IN a discussion where someone has just stated that they are against the political ramifications of Zionism, and IN a discussion where you have warned them that certain comments (like the ones they are making) are coming dangerously close to crossing that "anti-Semitic line" -- how about you now admit that even though you didn't write your conclusion explicitly (i.e. "You are therefore an anti-Semite" or "You are therefore being anti-Semitic") that it is most definitely implied.

How about that?

Because let me tell you, Mishei, I'm sure that the people on this forum are just as hurt by accusations of anti-Semitism and racism as you are by comparisons of the IDF to the SS.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 December 2002 12:31 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I will agree that what the Israeli admistration is doing is not genocide. The mass slaughter of 800,000 Rwandans over a 1 month period is genocide to me.

Just because it took the Europeans 400 years to wipe out most of the Native civilization, does not mean that it was not genocide.

I don't see the practical difference, the term genocide applies to many things above and beyond the direct application of Rule 303. It is also about the destruction of culture, a way of life, and livelihood.

The term was practically invented to describe means of wiping out a people, other than massacring them.

"The only good Arab is a dead Arab...When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle," Rafael Eitan, Likud leader of the Tsomet faction (1981)

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 12:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Because let me tell you, Mishei, I'm sure that the people on this forum are just as hurt by accusations of anti-Semitism and racism as you are by comparisons of the IDF to the SS.

Michelle, I hear you but you should hear me as well. My links and posts are meant to inform. Yes, like you, I feel passionately about issues especially Israel and antisemitism. I am genuine about these feelings so I post and respond to what I see.

Yes, I believe it is possible to get close to the antisemitic line and many may do so without malice or intent. You may not agree as to where i place my line and that is your perogative as it is mine to create the line in my head.

For the record. I will not hesitate to call someone out on antismitism directly if need be. I do not insinuate to anyone here. I post information and you can take from it what you wish.

BTW, those who take from it that they may have crossed the line and are offended...it is just not the same as the nazi comparision. Unless you have lost loved ones directly as a result of nazi murder, as have I, it is not the same.=. How can it be/ The murder of a loved one is something that I wish on no one. It is devestating especially in the context of racial hatred.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 01:03 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Michelle, we are on a thread talking about Israel, the issue reflects directly on the situation,,,while there was no direct comparision the insinuation seemed clear to me.

*SMASH!*

Ah, another wall down in the Glass Castle of Mishei.

Also, "ten tips to avoid anti-Semitism"? Give me a break. If you mean "ten tips to avoid being mistaken for an anti-Semite," or "ten tips to avoid sounding like an anti-Semite," okay, but this makes it sound like "ten tips for getting stains out of your rug." Or your soul. Get that nasty anti-Semitic stain out of your soul.

How about I post "ten tips to avoid anti-Arab racism," or "ten tips to avoid racism, period"? Sparky could sure use those.

quote:
Anyone who ignores the attacks on random Israeli citizens, considers them in some way understandable or justified, is underwriting the anti-Semitic logic behind them, namely that Israeli Jews are always guilty - regardless of whether they agree with their government - just because they are Jewish.

This is a distortion. For the record, I do not think the attacks are justified in any way - but the reason given for them is never "just because they are Jewish." It is because of the land that was taken and the rights that were withheld in their name.

quote:
The much more limited scope of the Israeli abuses of human rights do not justify the title of the biggest abuser of human rights.

Whoever said "biggest"?

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
NDB
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posted 03 December 2002 01:04 PM      Profile for NDB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, so you don't admit to using the tactic Michelle asked you about to imply anti-semitism in the posts of others? Cause that was the question, which you so artfully dodged.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 03 December 2002 01:05 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the original article, from which Mishei has cleverly deflected the conversation:

quote:
The Israeli army yesterday pasted notices ordering property seizures and house demolitions the length of a street in Hebron that Ariel Sharon wants to use to link two belligerent Jewish settlements.
The order horrified but did not surprise the residents of Al-Haram street after the prime minister's call three weeks ago for what Palestinians say amounts to ethnic cleansing and a land grab. But they still do not know whether their homes are to be destroyed or handed over to settlers.


quote:
Mr Sharon argued for the two Jewish settlements to be joined by a corridor through Al-Haram as far back as 1996. He has also said that the number of Arabs in the Israeli-controlled heart of Hebron could be reduced from 20,000 to a tenth of that number.

Among those facing expulsion is 91-year-old Radeb Jaber who has lived on the street his entire life. "I have lived under the Turks. I have lived under the British. I have lived under the Jordanians. These are the worst," he said. "They keep us under curfew. Every time they see us they curse us. Dog, bastard, they call us."

In such circumstances, it is difficult to imagine the settlers living side by side with Palestinians on Al-Haram street.

Mr Jaber's son Rahin, 65 agrees: "It's impossible to live with the settlers. It's like putting a poisonous snake on your chest. Either they kill us or we kill them. There's no in-between."


What we see in the works is a forced transfer of Palestinian residents from a part of Hebron. I will stick to the legally correct term and call Ariel Sharon an alledged war criminal.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 01:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I dodged nothing. I answered it fully. And Smith the article I posted was originally written in Dutch. The authors did their best to translate it. Their english is unfortunately not as good as you Dutch. Hence the possibility that ther didnt get it exactly as you would have wished.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 01:12 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think the wording is relevant. The accusation is the same.

Besides, you knew what it said - in English - when you posted it.

quote:
He has also said that the number of Arabs in the Israeli-controlled heart of Hebron could be reduced from 20,000 to a tenth of that number.

I especially love that bit. 90% Fewer A-rabs Or Your Money Back!

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
NDB
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posted 03 December 2002 01:18 PM      Profile for NDB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You responded to this part of Michelle's post:
quote:
Because let me tell you, Mishei, I'm sure that the people on this forum are just as hurt by accusations of anti-Semitism and racism as you are by comparisons of the IDF to the SS.

But, here's the question she posed, which you did not address:
quote:
Now, how about you admit to something, Mishei. How about you admit that when you post articles about the left being anti-Semitic because they oppose Israeli occupation or even the political ramifications of Zionism, IN a discussion where someone has just stated that they are against the political ramifications of Zionism, and IN a discussion where you have warned them that certain comments (like the ones they are making) are coming dangerously close to crossing that "anti-Semitic line" -- how about you now admit that even though you didn't write your conclusion explicitly (i.e. "You are therefore an anti-Semite" or "You are therefore being anti-Semitic") that it is most definitely implied.

How about that?


Yes, how 'bout it?

From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 01:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
From the original article, from which Mishei has cleverly deflected the conversation:

Actually, Sarcasmo, it was I who deflected the conversation. I admit that I saw a good opportunity to mirror the same rhetorical tactic that Mishei has been using, and I grabbed it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 December 2002 01:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh. So my dogged defence of you was wasted? I'm hurt. Just a little.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 03 December 2002 01:38 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For shame, Michelle!
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 02:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry, Wingy, I saw your first post and felt bad, because I was doing exactly what you said I wasn't.

Truth be told, I actually DON'T think the two situations are the same in scale, even if they are the same in method.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 07:27 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course they're not the same in scale - I don't think anyone was seriously proposing that. Mishei just likes to jump on people for any suggestion of such a proposition, no matter how slight.

And I'm really looking forward to reading the answer to NDB's question.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 08:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Now, how about you admit to something, Mishei. How about you admit that when you post articles about the left being anti-Semitic because they oppose Israeli occupation or even the political ramifications of Zionism, IN a discussion where someone has just stated that they are against the political ramifications of Zionism, and IN a discussion where you have warned them that certain comments (like the ones they are making) are coming dangerously close to crossing that "anti-Semitic line" -- how about you now admit that even though you didn't write your conclusion explicitly (i.e. "You are therefore an anti-Semite" or "You are therefore being anti-Semitic") that it is most definitely implied.
How about that?


Im sorry I have read this now a few times and maybe it's me but I am having a hard time following the logic.However for the record, the posts explaining the concerns about antisemitism are the opinions of some very decent and honourable people. Much of what they write I agree with. If some of you here see yourselves in their critisisms then maybe it will give you something to consider. You can reject it out of hand or you can think about it.

For the most part I think many of you are over reacting. While some may come close to the line that Stern, Wiesel Friedman and others have drawn, I do not belive that (with some exceptions in the past...and no they no longer seem to be on babble) you do so with intent or malice. Doesn't mean that the odd time in debate you may approach the line even cross it, its never done consistatntly and in other threads and areas your anti-racist attitudes demonstrate your struggle with this issue.

Im sure some will continue to find fault even with this explanation but its the best I can do.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 08:32 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
maybe it's me but I am having a hard time following the logic.

It's you.

quote:

However for the record, the posts explaining the concerns about antisemitism are the opinions of some very decent and honourable people.

That's irrelevant. Their concerns may be decent and honourable; applying those concerns to us is what is upsetting.

quote:

Much of what they write I agree with. If some of you here see yourselves in their critisisms then maybe it will give you something to consider.

It's very hard not to see myself in their criticisms when they say things like "criticising Israel when incidents of anti-Semitism are happening is anti-Semitic and wrong." They cast their net so wide that only the purest of Israeli apologists could not fall into it.

quote:

You can reject it out of hand or you can think about it.

I think about it. Then I reject it.

quote:

For the most part I think many of you are over reacting.

*SMASH!*

The Master Of Overreaction accuses others of overreacting. The unfortunate casualty? His all-glass sunroom. Too bad about that, Mishei.

quote:

While some may come close to the line that Stern, Wiesel Friedman and others have drawn, I do not belive that (with some exceptions in the past...and no they no longer seem to be on babble) you do so with intent or malice.

But you believe that we do it, and that if we don't acknowledge that we do it, we're failing to "look into ourselves" and root out the evil within.

quote:

Doesn't mean that the odd time in debate you may approach the line even cross it, its never done consistatntly and in other threads and areas your anti-racist attitudes demonstrate your struggle with this issue.

Because you, of course, don't struggle with this issue.

It must be so simple for you, Mishei. For you there is no racism but anti-Semitism, and so you are pure and holy and proof against all sin, almost automatically.

Must be nice to sit on that high horse. Try not to hit it when you're throwing stones.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 08:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While some may come close to the line that Stern, Wiesel Friedman and others have drawn, I do not belive that (with some exceptions in the past...and no they no longer seem to be on babble) you do so with intent or malice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you believe that we do it, and that if we don't acknowledge that we do it, we're failing to "look into ourselves" and root out the evil within.


Please show me where I have stated such a thing.

quote:
It must be so simple for you, Mishei. For you there is no racism but anti-Semitism, and so you are pure and holy and proof against all sin, almost automatically.

Must be nice to sit on that high horse. Try not to hit it when you're throwing stones.


I have been an anti-racsit for over 35 years. I have fought neo-nazis on the streets of Ottawa, Vancouver and Montreal. I have marched with Native Canadians,African-Canadians, Tamils and Roma. You know NOTHING about me and you have the gall to make such judgements. Disagree with me all you want on the Middle East but unless you know of what you speak don't cast aspersions. It shows an incredible immaturity and lack of respect. But Smith with you I have come to expect it.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 08:47 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"I do not believe you do so with intent or malice"

means

"I believe you do so, but not with intent."

No?

"If some of you here see yourselves in their critisisms then maybe it will give you something to consider."

means

"If you see yourself in their description of anti-Semites, maybe that will give you something to consider - i.e. whether YOU are an anti-Semite."

No?

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 08:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
No?
No

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 09:15 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Then please explain the difference, because I don't see it.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 09:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Smith i have explained it already. I will not indulge you by repeating myself ad nauseum (better than ad hominem ? )
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 03 December 2002 09:22 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
repeating myself ad nauseu

But your so good at it.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 09:52 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And now introducing Scout and Smith the new tag-team combination here on babble. And their opponent (reluctantly so) Mishei...poor slob doesn't stand a chance against these two theyn will hurl ad hominems and ad feminems ad nauseum. But Mishei is still standing...what stamina
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 03 December 2002 10:02 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ha ha Smith, I got first billing!

And you have spent so much more time on Mishei-gate, it just doesn't seem fair.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 10:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok guys/gals lets get back to my links. Here is a perspective on the latest terror attack from an African newspaper.

The Nairobi Nation


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 10:58 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Smith i have explained it already.

No you haven't. Your explanation was the problem.

quote:

I will not indulge you by repeating myself ad nauseum

No, only yourself, eh?

quote:

And their opponent (reluctantly so) Mishei...poor slob doesn't stand a chance against these two

Let's hope not!

quote:

But Mishei is still standing...what stamina

Well, it's very difficult to knock over someone so thick.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
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posted 03 December 2002 11:11 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey, let's play a game. It's called "Post a link to an article that doesn't pander to your own perspective exclusively". It's a fun game, just ask any of the other people who are already playing it! I'll even start playing myself.
From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 11:22 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ooo, ooo, fun!

I will repeat this link.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 04 December 2002 01:11 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Probably what Mishei wants us to take from his link is "Israel is the main victim of terror."

But this is from the article:

quote:
It is not enough that the terror groups wage war on Israel at every turn; now they must kill Kenyans as often as possible in the knowledge that we cannot retaliate.

The main victims of bombings in Kenya, both this one and the embassy bombings a few years back, are not Israelis and Americans but Kenyans. That's a perspective that's been missing too much. All are in my view slaughtered innocents, but the media's compassion has been selective.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 December 2002 02:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Swallow, as is the wont of others you too I see like to put words in my mouth, This was a Kenyan newspaper that is why I posted it's editorial.

For me it says that the terrorists really don't give a shit who they kill. In this case innocent Kenyans who because they are Black both the media and even we seem to not take their suffering into account.

These terrorists be they al Quaeda, Hizbollah, Hamas, care only for themselves and the rest of the world be damned.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 04 December 2002 04:16 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, i agree. If your point was to lament the loss of Kenyan lives, then i'm most awfully sorry for "putting words in your mouth." But surely you can understand why it's easy to assume that you link an article because it says supportive things about Israel? Your posts are read with your past posts in mind. No post is an island....

From a look around the Nairobi Nation web site, the link you provided was the only columnist i could find who spun the story that way. Here's some spin in a different direction from the Nation's weekly magazine:

Here's an editorial that wants Kenya to reduce military ties to Israel.

This opinion piece is concerned with avoiding religious conflict.

This one talks about root causes and calls for a Palestinian state.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 December 2002 05:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So Swallow as in Israel there is a diversity of opinion when it comes to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. If only that same diversity of opinion would occur in the PA.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 04 December 2002 06:32 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If only that same diversity of opinion would occur in the PA.

On has to wonder about the intentions of statment like this. It would strike one that such a sweeping generalization smacks of anti-semetism, in that it suggests all Palestinian semites think alike. One has to be careful to avoid antesemetism, when discussing sensitive issues such as the pesent conflict between Israeli's and Palestinians.

I will refer you to the thread called: "Armed Uprising Denounced," to establish clearly that diversity of opinion does indeed exist whith in the PA.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 04 December 2002 06:34 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's recap. Michelle posted her thoughts on how the original story reminded her of the tale she read of the Nazis displacing the Jews. Mishei, in turn jumped all over her:
quote:
Why the necessity of this comparision?
Despite the fact there was no clear comparison made.
Mishei then posts "ten tips to avoid antisemetism", which he in turn defends as
quote:
an interesting piece that had nothing offensive about nazis
. Again, Michelle was implicitly comparing the IDF to Nazis, but Mishei was, apparently, not comparing Michelle to an anti-semite. (See how that works?)
Mishei then dons the familiar robe of the Injured Innocent:

quote:
My links and posts are meant to inform. Yes, like you, I feel passionately about issues especially Israel and antisemitism. I am genuine about these feelings so I post and respond to what I see.

So, by constantly posting stories about the left and anti-semitism or adding comments like this:

quote:
While some may come close to the line that Stern, Wiesel Friedman and others have drawn, I do not belive that (with some exceptions in the past...and no they no longer seem to be on babble) you do so with intent or malice. Doesn't mean that the odd time in debate you may approach the line even cross it, its never done consistatntly and in other threads and areas your anti-racist attitudes demonstrate your struggle with this issue.

he is merely informing us.

Finally Mishei takes to the role of Righteous Man with this:

quote:
I have been an anti-racsit for over 35 years. I have fought neo-nazis on the streets of Ottawa, Vancouver and Montreal. I have marched with Native Canadians,African-Canadians, Tamils and Roma. You know NOTHING about me and you have the gall to make such judgements. Disagree with me all you want on the Middle East but unless you know of what you speak don't cast aspersions. It shows an incredible immaturity and lack of respect. But Smith with you I have come to expect it.
to demonstrate that he is better than us. Thanks for tuning in and keep watching!

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 December 2002 06:43 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is this thread about Hebron?

If it is, I'd like to come back tomorrow and say something about Hebron. But I'm feeling confused right now. I have nothing against thread drift normally, but I think Hebron is an affecting topic.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 December 2002 07:02 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Black-dog, wow what an inspiring summation of what you believe my inner thoughts must be. With your mind science fiction would be a job in which you would excel.

Now for all of you Mishei likers....extrapolate what you will...if I was half as clever or coniving as some of you fear I would be out spending my money instead of enjoying my time here on babble


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 04 December 2002 07:09 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry Mishei, but your "I'm so misunderstood" routine has got really frigging old. Time and again you've shown a reluctance to confront accusations made by others (I can't begin to think of how many times I've seen you write "Show me where I said..."), while flinging your own accusations, always masked as "information", around like hand grenades. You're slick, I'll give you that, but I spend my days knee-deep in spin and you positively reek of it. So by all means, carry on, just don't act so surprised when people call bullshit on you.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 December 2002 07:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
if I was half as clever or coniving as some of you fear I would be out spending my money instead of enjoying my time here on babble

Ah. A fortunate man.

And: Nope. Not about Hebron. Sorry for interrupting.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 December 2002 07:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sorry Mishei, but your "I'm so misunderstood" routine has got really frigging old. Time and again you've shown a reluctance to confront accusations made by others (I can't begin to think of how many times I've seen you write "Show me where I said..."), while flinging your own accusations, always masked as "information", around like hand grenades. You're slick, I'll give you that, but I spend my days knee-deep in spin and you
Well the problem is dog that people love to throw my supposed posts back at me. So when I challenge them to prove it they cant. Defending yourself and calling bluffs are important. Not tha you would undestand that.

Now choosing to respond to queries or demands is one thing but if you are going to claim that someone here called someone a racist or antisemite (so many here seem to think that is what I was doing..uh uh I was simply providing information..beliveit or dont believe it that happens to have been my sole motivation)you better be able to give direct proof.

But dog you just keep doing what you youn are doing and so wiill I.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 December 2002 07:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And so ... no one will ever talk about Hebron.

Congratulations, Mishei.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 04 December 2002 07:50 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whats happeneing in Hebron/Al-Khalil is similar to what has been happening throughout Palestine since the creation of Isreal, and what is likely to continue happening in other West Bank towns in future.

Also, the reason there isn't a diversity of opinions coming from the PA, is that its not supposed to do that. Its an autocratic regime created by the U.S. with Israel to help oppress Palestians.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 December 2002 08:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Also, the reason there isn't a diversity of opinions coming from the PA, is that its not supposed to do that. Its an autocratic regime created by the U.S. with Israel to help oppress Palestians.


Right ofcourse it was a conspiracy its all the fault of those damn Israelis

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 04 December 2002 08:10 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There does seem to be a diversity of opinion coming from Palestinians and their supporters, though.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 08:14 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This board seems a tad one-sided when it comes to Israel/Palestine. Doesn't anybody think that both sides are wrong? The Israeli's bulldoze houses and impose curfews, but it's not like they do it out of the blue.

I mean, wouldn't Toronto take any action if Ottawa was driving explosive-laden cars through the fronts of discos? Or detonating bombs in buses full of kids?

There's enough blame to go around on all sides without demonizing one or the other (those Nazi/genocide comparisons are depraved and sickening).


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 04 December 2002 08:24 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, both sides are wrong. And both sides are right.

What I find disturbing is that the Israeli side has much, much more power to make life a living hell for the Palestinians - all the Palestinians - than vice versa. And they do. So often they do. And they don't seem to recognise this, or if they do, they are too angry to care.

But yes, both sides are wrong. And both sides harbour murderers and terrorists.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
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posted 04 December 2002 08:30 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I still think the problem goes much deeper than the "occupied territories". Arab forces attacked Israel numerous times before there were any "occupied territories" -- except for the original territory that Israel "occupied" when it was created. And that's the problem: the existence of Israel. Anyone who thinks that full Israeli withdrawl from all of the territories would accomplish peace is delusional.

In hindsight Israel should never have been created where it is. A much better solution would have been to establish a homeland in the US or other tolerant country. Of course, that would never fly with Zionists, for whom the "promised land" counts more than life itself.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 04 December 2002 08:33 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anyone who thinks that full Israeli withdrawl from all of the territories would accomplish peace is delusional.

It wouldn't accomplish peace, no, but I bet it would help.

That land is so vital to so many people. Could anything have been done with it that wouldn't have brought on misery and war?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 04 December 2002 09:19 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Also, the reason there isn't a diversity of opinions coming from the PA, is that its not supposed to do that. Its an autocratic regime created by the U.S. with Israel to help oppress Palestians.

quote:
Right ofcourse it was a conspiracy its all the fault of those damn Israelis

Did I say something wrong? How was the PA created? How well has it worked? Who's damning Israelis?

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 04 December 2002 10:24 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And so ... no one will ever talk about Hebron.

The only one who has figured this out.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 04 December 2002 10:45 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Also, the reason there isn't a diversity of opinions coming from the PA, is that its not supposed to do that. Its an autocratic regime created by the U.S. with Israel to help oppress Palestians.

Surely, I think this at times but I waver on this idea too. Politics is politics. You said elsewhere that you were no fan of Arafat and Fatah (admitedly it is hard to be), and sympathized with the 'people' of Palestine.

I agree that it is important to understand the function of the PA as an instrument of control over the Palestinian people, a means of getting the ruled to rule themselves, while still exploiting them.

I found this rather interesting article the from Monthly Review about the econmic purpose of Oslo within he neoliberal agenda, and recent changes in the economic management of Israel:Class, Economy, and the Second Intifada

On the other hand the Palestinians have to play with the hand they have been dealt, so I can't simply condemn the PA and Arafat out of hand. As well I have a problem with thinking of the Palestinian 'people,' as some entirly seperate entity that is equally vicitmized by all sides, including the PA.

We, and more importantly they (the Palestinians) must make tough choices about who they support, within all of this madness.

I also don't think its quite true that there is no diversity of opinion. As I pointed out earlier Abbas just condemened the uprising, as a 'mistake.' The PA is not as simple as Israel would like us to believe.

Enough of this biting at the bait of the baiters, lets de-bate the issues.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 05 December 2002 02:52 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While looking for information on diversity of opinion within the PA (yes, it exists!), I came across this stuff by accident:

I went to Arafat in order to tell him that in spite of everything there are still many in Israel who will not let despair destroy the hope of peace. It is incumbent on all who believe in the cause of a just peace to work together to conquer injustice, greed and power-worship to bring peace and prosperity to the two peoples.

The same author said
this

There is discussion within the Palestinian Authority. And guess what? Even though they may have disagreements, just about everyone is opposed to the occupation.
www.miftah.org


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 05 December 2002 08:13 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There you go again, Arch, confusing the issues with facts and ideas. Good God, will you stop it!
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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