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Author Topic: Israeli President breaks fast with Arab leaders
Mishei
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posted 02 December 2002 05:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope this is but another sign of a change and better things to come

breaking the fast

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 December 2002 06:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excellent.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
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posted 02 December 2002 08:02 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Indeed Now, if only we can build on it.
From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 December 2002 11:08 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cool. But wait - does Israel have both a president and a prime minister? Enlighten me, please.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Praxedis G
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posted 02 December 2002 11:40 PM      Profile for Praxedis G     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone who knows more about the Israeli political structure should probably elaborate/correct me on this, but yes, Israel has both a President and a PM. As I understand it, their PM (Sharon) is the head of government and enacts most of the Knesset's policy decisions. The President (Katzav) is head of state and really has more of a ceremonial position. Similar in structure to Germany's political system, methinks....

I remember living in Ottawa this past spring and hearing that Israel's (unnamed) President was coming for an official visit. I was quite looking forward to the chance to protest our war-criminal friend Sharon in person, only to find out that it was in fact Katzav who would be coming. So perhaps it's a common mistake.....

PS: It looks like this is my first post on Babble. I've been a lurker for quite some time, but I finally broke down and signed up. Pleased to meet y'all!

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Praxedis G ]


From: an exiled Maritimer in New Orleans, deep in the hawrt of Amurrakuh | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 12:03 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
our war-criminal friend Sharon
Though I am no friend of Sharon's, forgive me if I am wrong but what court either domestic , national or international has convicted Sharon of war crimes?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Praxedis G
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posted 03 December 2002 12:12 AM      Profile for Praxedis G     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So far, unfortunately, no court has been able to try Sharon for war crimes. But the fact that he's basically untriable in the present global political situation doesn't make him any less of a war criminal. There are plenty of unconvicted war criminals out there running around free ... one of them even managed to be appointed head of the September 11 inquiry here in the US, just this past week.
From: an exiled Maritimer in New Orleans, deep in the hawrt of Amurrakuh | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
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posted 03 December 2002 01:08 AM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am under the impression that an indictment for war crimes awaits Ariel Sharon once he leaves office as an elected official as current war crimes tribunals forbid a sitting elected politician from facing trial.

Welcome to rabble Praxedis G.

edited to add:

Praxedis G refers of course, to Henry Kissinger who is apparently to be arrested on sight by any French official able to affect an arrest - should Kissinger ever mistakenly step foot on French soil again. One could only hope...

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: flotsom ]


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 09:02 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1. No indictmant awaits Sharon to the best of my knowledge. If you have proof to the contrary please post it here.

2.

quote:
But the fact that he's basically untriable in the present global political situation doesn't make him any less of a war criminal
In fact it does . To be labeled a "war criminal" means that the individual has been found guilty of war crimes by a bona fide court of law. I do not recall that you have been appointed judge and jury for the world.

Interestingly Ariel Sharon successfully sued Time magazine for the implication that he was involved in war crimes. So while you are free to slander anyone you want in the real world until a person is found guilty of a crime we do not refer to him as a "criminal".


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 03 December 2002 10:14 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How 'bout murderer?

quote:
You’re Ariel Sharon, and Life is Good
November 26 2002

"Your accountants are preparing a $10 billion shakedown of the American taxpayers. It supposed to be a loan guarantee, but we both know, Israel never repays .."

By William Hughes

BALTIMORE (PC) - You’re Ariel Sharon, Israel’s Prime Minister. Your troops, on Nov. 22, 2002, shot to death a British subject, Iain John Hook. He was the highly respected UN project manager at Jenin, where your army had previously been accused of committing war crimes against the Palestinians.

Hook was inside the UN compound, at Jenin, when the murder occurred. The Israeli killers said Mr. Hook appeared to have “a gun” in his hand. It was actually a cell phone! I’m sure it was just another of those darn “Israeli mistakes,” like the IDF’s massacre at Qana, Lebanon, on April 18, 1996; and, the IDF’s murderous attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967. British P.M. Tony Blair will surely understand. Anyway, isn’t he George W. Bush Jr.’s ‘lackey‘?

Meanwhile, you’re Ariel Sharon! What’s a little “mistake” between friends?

You even had to smile to yourself, when you issued your latest lame excuse for reoccupying Bethlehem, one of the holiest sites in Christendom. Your storm troopers closed the town down and even kept the Palestinian Christians from attending Sunday Mass at the ancient Church of the Nativity. No need to worry. Who really cares? Cardinal Edward M. Egan, Archbishop of New York City, was too busy viewing the NFL’s NY Jets beating the Buffalo Bills, 31 to 13, to even notice. By the way, is the IDF going to be in Bethlehem on Christmas Day, too?

Things couldn’t be better. You’re Ariel Sharon.

Those pesky Belgian state prosecutors tried to indict you for the supposed heinous war crimes you perpetrated at Sabra and Shatila. Lucky for you, an appellant court said, it had no jurisdiction since you’re not a resident of that country. Be careful, don't let anybody offer you a free vacation to Belgium. Remember what happened to Chile’s General Augusto Pinochet on his UK holiday. It could happen to you, too!

You’re an international statesman. You’re Ariel Sharon.

In New York City, Mayor Michael Bloomberg is endorsing a gargantuan property tax hike of 18 % for its residents. Meanwhile, your accountants, Slick, Slash and Burn, are preparing a $10 billion shakedown of the American taxpayers. It supposed to be a loan guarantee, but we both know, Israel never repays it loans to the dumb Yankee goyim. This $10 billion will be in addition to the yearly $7 billion handout.

But, don’t worry. You’re Ariel Sharon.

Thanks to one of your favorite political hacks, Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (D-CT), the U.S. now has a “Homeland Security Agency,” to watch over the “home of the brave.” And, to further curtail the possibility of any genuine dissent in the “land of the free,” two more of your senatorial boy-ohs, Arlen Specter (R-PA) and Charles Schumer (D-NY), pushed through, without a public hearing, the Bill-of-Rights’-shredding “USA Patriot Act.” The duo are the godfathers of this scheme, which they seeded in the mid-90s. They are so clever their fingerprints can’t be found on the law.

You’re feeling pretty safe now. Your name is Ariel Sharon.

In fact, on Oct. 3, 2001, when you barked at a Tel Aviv Cabinet meeting, according to Israel Radio, (Kol Yisrael): “I want to tell you something very clear, don’t worry about America. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” Well, you did go a little overboard on that one. Even if you’re right about the Jews controlling America, I still think it was a real stretch to say, “the Americans know it.” I think if they did know it, you, and the other bad Zionists, too, would be sent to your rooms, and forbidden to watch the “Jerry Springer TV Show!”

You’re smart. You’re clever. You’re Ariel Sharon.

You were mouthing off to the Times of London recently. And, darn if you didn’t say, “The day after U.S. troops finish off Saddam, they should turn their guns against Tehran.” Now, you almost blew the Zionist cover on that one. Most Americans are clueless about your country’s agenda about using the U.S. military to destroy Israel’s Arab enemies. Chicken hawk Richard Perle didn’t help either. He told members of the UK Parliament (11/25/02, Daily Mirror), the U.S. would attack Iraq, even if UN inspectors failed to find any weapons. Making President George W. Bush Jr. look like a dupe for Tel Aviv isn’t good for business Ariel.

Ariel Sharon is the man. Right and wrong are just words.

When you hold your press conferences in Tel Aviv, you tend to sit at your desk, behind a huge photo of your political guru, the late Vladimir Jabotinsky, an extreme right-winger, even by Likud’s low political standards. Now, this isn't too smart. The press might find out that he advocated the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their own land. Some folks, too, think you will use a U.S.-led Gulf War II, as a cover to forcibly transfer all of the Palestinians to Jordan. Now, just cool it! Okay! Simply remove the Jabotinsky’s portrait and replace it with Jonathan Pollard’s!

Hey, time marches on. Ariel Sharon keeps ticking away.

Finally, last week, as your intentionally provocative colonial occupation policies continued to fuel a horrific cycle of violence, you railed, that you will “cut the hand off” anyone that strikes Israel. That’s a bloody kind of metaphor and it doesn’t help your reputation. Talking about hands, we met, in Dec., 1977. I even shook your hand. It was at a farewell banquet for Baltimoreans visiting the Holy Land, which was held in Tel Aviv. Since that time, I’ve noticed that I’m always washing my hand, like it has blood or some foreign substance on it. Does the Arab village of Qibya, in 1953, and Unit 101, bring back any memories for you? Oh heck, why spoil the party? Everything is always coming up roses for you.

You’re Ariel Sharon, and life is good.



From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Praxedis G
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posted 03 December 2002 10:20 AM      Profile for Praxedis G     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Part III : Status and treatment of protected persons #Section III : Occupied territories
ARTICLE 49

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Here's the link to this citation:
http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/c525816bde96b7fd41256739003e636a/77068f1 2b8857c4dc12563cd0051bdb0?OpenDocument

***************

Well, Mishei, can you deny that Sharon has engaged in the transferral of Israeli civilians into the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza during his tenure as PM of Israel? If so, please explain. Otherwise, that looks like a war crime to me according to UN protocols. Whether or not he's been actually indicted at this point is irrelevant to my willingness to label him a war criminal. You and I know that in a different geopolitical reality he'd be in the docket at the ICC as soon as he leaves office. That's enough for me.

PS: Nice meeting you too, Mishei. Yeesh.

PPS: Anyone want to help me out with figuring out how to quote previous posts? I'm kinda new at this.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Praxedis G ]

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Praxedis G ]


From: an exiled Maritimer in New Orleans, deep in the hawrt of Amurrakuh | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 10:25 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Praxedis G you can make whatever accusations you deem fit. Others have accused Kissinger, Reagean, Bush, Clinton, Mandela, Arafat, Castro, the list is infinite with all kinds of crimes
the fact my friend is this, WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT BELIEVES IN THE FIDELITY OF LAW.Unless and until a court of law finds these individuals, including Sharon, guilty of a crime he remains innocent. It is the corner stone of any democracy. Unless ofcourse you would choose another means of government.

BTW, nice to meet you too

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 December 2002 10:38 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT BELIEVES IN THE FIDELITY OF LAW

Under this principal alone Areil Sharon should be tried for war crimes, as he leads an adminstration wich actively pursues a policy of assassination of state subjects, without trial.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Praxedis G
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posted 03 December 2002 10:48 AM      Profile for Praxedis G     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Preee-cysely, Moredreads.

I'll be back to continue this debate later today. Right now I've got the unparalleled privilege of being able to head downtown to give a warm New Orleans welcome to everyone's favorite despot, George Bush, who happens to be in town today for a $1000 a plate fundraiser for the Republican party.

Anyone have any messages they'd like me to pass along to the rat bahstid?


From: an exiled Maritimer in New Orleans, deep in the hawrt of Amurrakuh | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 10:49 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Under this principal alone Areil Sharon should be tried for war crimes, as he leads an adminstration wich actively pursues a policy of assassination of state subjects, without trial.


Fidelity to law has as a cornerstone the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

As well, any sovereign state has the absolute obligation to protect its citizens from terrorism. Under this definition, President Bush and without any doubt Yassir Arafat would share the same docket as Sharon.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dr. Mr. Ben
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posted 03 December 2002 10:49 AM      Profile for Dr. Mr. Ben   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Praxedis, please pass along the following: "Look out! There is a spider on your shoulder, Mr. President!"

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Mr. Ben ]


From: Mechaslovakia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 03 December 2002 11:36 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fidelity to law has as a cornerstone the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

That would explain the "trial-by-Apache helicopter" method of Israeli jurisprudence regarding alleged terrorists and their neighbours.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 03 December 2002 11:38 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That would explain the "trial-by-Apache helicopter" method of Israeli jurisprudence regarding alleged terrorists and their neighbours.

No, that's called war.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 December 2002 11:53 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wrong.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 03 December 2002 11:53 AM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Which brings us full circle back to the war crimes accusation.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 12:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Which brings us full circle back to the war crimes accusation.
Which is just that an accusation and no more.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 December 2002 12:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In fact, on Oct. 3, 2001, when you barked at a Tel Aviv Cabinet meeting, according to Israel Radio, (Kol Yisrael): “I want to tell you something very clear, don’t worry about America. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

If Sharon actually said this, does he even know how much cannon fodder he just gave every little right-wing anti-Semite who thinks the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are for real?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 December 2002 12:34 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli leaders say a lot of provocative things, but Sheep seems to insist that they should be ignored in favour of his unsubstantiated assertions about history.

Rabin once claimed that he was going to march into Damascus and overthorw the government. But i guess the Arabs really don't have anything to worry about, not really.

Here's a good one: "The only good Arab is a dead Arab...When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle," Rafael Eitan, Likud leader of the Tsomet faction (1981)

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 12:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Sharon actually said this, does he even know how much cannon fodder he just gave every little right-wing anti-Semite who thinks the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are for real?
Doc, would you provide the exact place you got this from. I find it hard to beleieve and would like to see if it can be verified.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 03 December 2002 12:58 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, the bit that DrConway quoted is taken from Satana's long post earlier in the thread.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 December 2002 12:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the article that satana posted, Mishei.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
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posted 03 December 2002 12:59 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Satana, where'd you find that, do you remember? (I ask because I often don't )
From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 01:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks. I will see what I can find out about this.
One interesting curiosity, Cabinet meetings are held in Jerusalem at the Knesseth not in Tel Aviv.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DJStealth
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posted 03 December 2002 01:06 PM      Profile for DJStealth     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Re: Israeli President and Israeli PM.

Here's the deal.

The Prime Minister is a democratically elected official. Currently the leader of the party with the most votes is the Prime Minister, unless the Prime Minister is voted against by a No Confidence motion. If a No Confidence motion passes, there is direct elections for the PM. This happened quite a few times recently against Barak and I think Netanyahu; usually after a coallition governmetnt breaks up below the 61 seat mark. (Unfortunately no party has ever had a majority government in Israel which is technically more democratic, but very difficult to maintain).

The President also exists; he is equivalent to the Queen, or Governor General. He's just a figurehead and does nothing more than sign all the bills that get passed in Knesset. I think he is appointed, but not sure exactly how.


From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 03 December 2002 01:10 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fidelity to law has as a cornerstone the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

Or until shot by Israeli soldiers. Whichever comes first.

quote:

As well, any sovereign state has the absolute obligation to protect its citizens from terrorism.

By shooting children.

It's a crime when Palestinians do it, but when Israeli soldiers do it it's an "obligation." What. Ever.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 03 December 2002 01:18 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israeli leaders say a lot of provocative things, but Sheep seems to insist that they should be ignored in favour of his unsubstantiated assertions about history.

Why that's exactly what I think Moredreads...gold star for you!

Here's an idea...why don't we count up every nasty thing said by Isreali leaders about Arabs, and then count up every nasty thing said by Arab leaders about Isrealis. Whoever said the least amount of nasty things is the winner! Middle East issue solved!


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 03 December 2002 01:38 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
click

Here is a site devoted to accusations against Sharon specifically related to Sabra Shatila. Their lack of success in obtaining a conviction to date seems to have more to do with disputes over jurisdiction than strength of evidence.

Offered, as always, in the spirit of elucidation.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 01:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As well, any sovereign state has the absolute obligation to protect its citizens from terrorism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By shooting children.

It's a crime when Palestinians do it, but when Israeli soldiers do it it's an "obligation." What. Ever.


Another attempt at moral equivalancy.

It is a tragedy when any child is brutally killed. It is however not equivalant . A terrorist walks into a crowded pizza parlour. He sees women and children eating lunch and callously murders them all. Israel retalliates. Yes tragically at times, innocent people are hurt or killed during retalliation. But so I understand, are you saying that the Israeli soldier callously aims his rifle at innocent Palestinian women and children then decides to pull the trigger committing murder? If you are saying that I would like to see some proof that this is the general wont of the IDF. Because that is ALL the Terrorists do...murder. Show me the proof that the IDF wilfully plans and carries out murder against the Palestinians who are jsut peacefullty going about their daily business.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 03 December 2002 01:53 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This one is hot off the presses

There doesn't seem much point in showing you evidence, Mishei, as you always either deny, rationalise or ignore any that is presented here.

"Moral equivalence?"

When your side commits atrocities, it's because you're justified. When the other side commits atrocities, it's because they're evil.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 01:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There doesn't seem much point in showing you evidence, Mishei, as you always either deny, rationalise or ignore any that is presented here.


Well if you had some reputable sources....but yours Arch can hardly ever be trusted

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
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posted 03 December 2002 03:11 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, civilian deaths are wrong. Period. Suggesting that it's not so bad when Israeli soldiers kill civilians because this is not the intent of the soldier(?) or the IDF is tantamount to saying that because of terrorism palestinians are asking to be killed. Or that death is what they deserve. It simply isn't so. Whether or not the killings are committed in the name of "defense" (and I've heard IDF officers admit that they weren't supportive of the idea of invading, that the pressure was coming from Sharon's party, and that the attacks weren't defensive or prophylactic, but were vengeance, blood for blood), you can't blithely dismiss civilian casualties; and it isn't any better to claim that "any palestinian is likely to be a terrorist", again for reasons that should be self-evident.
From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 December 2002 03:23 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Suggesting that it's not so bad when Israeli soldiers kill civilians because this is not the intent of the soldier(?) or the IDF is tantamount to saying that because of terrorism palestinians are asking to be killed. Or that death is what they deserve. It simply isn't so. Whether or not the killings are committed in the name of "defense" (and I've heard IDF officers admit that they weren't supportive of the idea of invading, that the pressure was coming from Sharon's party, and that the attacks weren't defensive or prophylactic, but were vengeance, blood for blood), you can't blithely dismiss civilian casualties; and it isn't any better to claim that "any palestinian is likely to be a terrorist", again for reasons that should be self-evident.
Doaine, there is a concept of moral equivalency and that is what I am talking about. I in no way "blithely" dismiss civilian casualties. I just point out that it is not the same as a planned terrorist murder. That is a fact you may not like but nonetheless a fact.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 03 December 2002 03:31 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I just point out that it is not the same as a planned terrorist murder. That is a fact you may not like but nonetheless a fact.

It's not a fact, it's your opinion. Both actions are repugnant, one is planned by a occupying military force, the other by murderers hiding out in basements. Just because the delivery device is different doesn't make it any more amoral, or any less deadly. A bomb attached to a missile is just as deadly as a bomb attached to a human. The hierarchy of command for the IDF and Hamas might be different, but the callous disregard for human life is equivalent.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 03 December 2002 03:35 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well if you had some reputable sources....but yours Arch can hardly ever be trusted

deny, deny deny...


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 03 December 2002 03:40 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is the New York Times mainstream enough for you???

quote:
A 95-year-old Palestinian woman was fatally shot by Israeli troops today as a car in which she was riding sped down a West Bank highway closed to Palestinian vehicles, hospital officials said.

I know, she was a terrorist too.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 03 December 2002 03:45 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If a murder is a murder is a murder is a murder, then why do we make distinctions in our courts? We have first degree murder, second degree murder, and third degree murder, not to mention manslaughter, voluntary and involuntary.

From what I'm hearing here, shouldn't they all be treated the same? The end result is that a human life is taken, so why should we pay any attention to premeditation or intent?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 03 December 2002 03:57 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine. There are many shades of murder. Firing a missile into a crowded market, or loosing a volley of gunfire into said market while desperate people try to buy food, qualifies as a planned and premeditated act. I'm glad you agree that such crimes should be considered first degree murder.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 03 December 2002 04:01 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geez sheep, after reading all your pronouncements on tactics elsewhere, I'd have thought you'd recognize the great amount of planning and preparation (ie. "premeditation") that goes into any military operation, no matter how small it may be.

Edited to add: And then there is the command structure involved with any decision. A lot of thinking by a lot of people goes on before a single round is fired.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DJStealth
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3309

posted 03 December 2002 04:02 PM      Profile for DJStealth     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Intention to kill civilians is very different than accidentally killing civilians. You cannot equate the two under any circumstances.
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 03 December 2002 04:04 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What makes you think the IDF doesn't intend to kill civilians? Are they shooting flowers from their rifles when they disperse crowds? Are the Apache helicopters firing payloads of gummi bears into apartment buildings?
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Section 49
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3186

posted 03 December 2002 04:07 PM      Profile for Section 49     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sheep: a pretty good case could be made out for 1st degree murder for both the IDF actions and terrorist actions, albeit under different branches of the mens rea tests. Suicide bombers intend to cause the deaths of their victims. But you can be found guilty of murder (first or second degree, depending on premeditation) as long as you are reckless as to whether an action performed that is meant to kill or cause serious harm to one person actually, by mistake or accident, kills somebody else. Lobbing missiles into neighbourhoods to get at suspected terrorists pretty clearly fits.

So, we don't need to ignore the intentions of the particular actor involved. In many of these cases, murder is murder is murder.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 03 December 2002 04:23 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Lobbing missiles into neighbourhoods to get at suspected terrorists pretty clearly fits.

Now this I completely agree with. You cannot go dropping bombs into a residential apartment block and not expect to kill a number of civilians. A military cannot go around killing civilian non-combatants left and right, and justify everything by saying "well, we were after a legitimate target".

It's easy enough to see the distinctions between the IDF's actions and those of the suicide bombers. The IDF shows wanton disregard for civilian lives in pursuit of it's objectives, and for the suicide bombers, the lives of Isreali citizens ARE the objective.

Just not sure how much that distinction really buys though.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 03 December 2002 04:26 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Regarding what Sharon said on Oct. 3, 2001, I was quoting William Hughes who was quoting Kol Yisrael.
I couldn't find other sources online to confirm it, but, hard as it is to imagine, not all information is available online.

Anyway, I think Mishei has a point about Ariel Sharon not being conviticted.
It is sad fact that in the real world, people can and do get away with mass murder. You need power to make laws, and power to enforce them. And for murderers like Sharon, who do have that power, life is good.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DJStealth
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3309

posted 03 December 2002 04:29 PM      Profile for DJStealth     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
satana, Sharon has not been convicted, so you cannot call him a murderer. The point is was not the person (or part of the group) that killed the Palistinians in Sabra and Shatilla. The Phalangists did it.
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 03 December 2002 04:50 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
alledged murderer.

I swear, there are too many lawyers on this board (with apologies to Josh and Jeff).


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 03 December 2002 05:12 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon has not been convicted yet. Israel declined to pass judgement in this case because the massacre occurred in Lebanon, outside of Israeli juridiction. Sharon's responsibility has been pretty clearly established. The Phalange were demonstrably Sharon's proxy, and the camps were under Israeli control - therefore all of the moral weight of Mishei's "failure to protect" is applicable here.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 05:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually Israel did pass judgement in a lengthy inquiry. Sharon was found to have some responsibility for the massacre and was forced to resign his post as I recall.

He was not found to have percipitated the crime but the Israeli courts did feel he could have done more to prevent it as I understood the findings.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gary Shaul
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1653

posted 03 December 2002 06:44 PM      Profile for Gary Shaul   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh. But now he's OK? (I don't know why I'm bothering).
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 06:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh. But now he's OK? (I don't know why I'm bothering).
Huh?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 07:21 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Intention to kill civilians is very different than accidentally killing civilians. You cannot equate the two under any circumstances.

Which is why I don't. However, there have been plenty of instances of both on the part of the IDF.

There is no moral equivalency between deliberate and accidental killing...but what the IDF does is not accidental. It is, at best, careless. They kill innocent people because they don't give a shit whether those people die or not - they are "collateral damage."

quote:
The IDF shows wanton disregard for civilian lives in pursuit of it's objectives, and for the suicide bombers, the lives of Isreali citizens ARE the objective.

Exactly.

Murder by means of extreme negligence is still murder.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 07:24 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well if you had some reputable sources....but yours Arch can hardly ever be trusted

Mishei, why the hell should we trust yours or hold the authour's of the million articles you post, as you blanketing this site in your mission to educate. What makes you the expert? I will not take you word for the validty of the links you post or who is a reputable source as you are single- and narrow-minded in your mission.I prefer to make those decision myself, and all you do is vaguley dicredit others you don't agree with.

Also, it has been explained to you, over and over, how you attack those who don't support your cause, you are evasive and it doesn't matter how many people agree on what your MO, you just deny it and carry on. You have abolished your own credibilty to those who would discourse with you and trade ideas.

A backhanded insult is still an insult. You can't on one hand claim to be so intlligent as to educate us in the error of our ways and still be too stupid to know you are attacking Smith's character and others in the style you have been shown to favour. Either your smart and into character assasination of disenters or your stupid. Which is it?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3321

posted 03 December 2002 08:00 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been hearing for years now about the "accidental" killings of palestinian civilians. Years.

If you start out using apaches to take out city blocks to get a single terrorists, and kill civilians in the process, and then move to more and more carefully targeted actions, that might reflect concern over these accidental civilian killings.

But we seem to be going in the opposite direction. From this article (linked already in this thread):

quote:
...indeed, in the two weeks I was with her, 19 civilians were shot, six fatally. Seven of the victims were children on their way to school, shot as tanks opened fire in the middle of the town.

Claims that civilian deaths are accidental aren't credible, can't be credible, as long as any such incidents continue to occur. To deny moral equivalence with suicide-bombing victims belies one's own humanity.


From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 08:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, why the hell should we trust yours or hold the authour's of the million articles you post, as you blanketing this site in your mission to educate. What makes you the expert? I will not take you word for the validty of the links you post or who is a reputable source as you are single- and narrow-minded in your mission.I prefer to make those decision myself, and all you do is vaguley dicredit others you don't agree with.

Also, it has been explained to you, over and over, how you attack those who don't support your cause, you are evasive and it doesn't matter how many people agree on what your MO, you just deny it and carry on. You have abolished your own credibilty to those who would discourse with you and trade ideas.

A backhanded insult is still an insult. You can't on one hand claim to be so intlligent as to educate us in the error of our ways and still be too stupid to know you are attacking Smith's character and others in the style you have been shown to favour. Either your smart and into character assasination of disenters or your stupid. Which is it?


"Millions of posts" just a tad of an exageration as is this entire post. Hyperbole, ad hominem and exagerration. I have never claimed to be an expert. If I have please show me where.

Just because you and others critisize my debating style does not make you right either. The people who I link to have impecable credentials as human and civil rights advocats. Oh you can disagree with their pov but their credentials are beyond reproach.

And for the record, I have never "assasinated anyone's character" and while I don't feel that I am "stupid" (that's a word btw that my children use when they are angry )you are, as always, entitled to your opinion even when you are wrong.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 08:24 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*SMASH!* Looks like you took out another wing of your house there, Mishei.

quote:
"Millions of posts" just a tad of an exageration as is this entire post.

Fine. Dodge again.

quote:
I have never claimed to be an expert. If I have please show me where.

No, but you claim to have all the experts on your side, and you ignore every article that isn't if you cannot immediately discredit it.

quote:

Just because you and others critisize my debating style does not make you right either.

No, it just makes you a lousy debater.

quote:

The people who I link to have impecable credentials as human and civil rights advocats. Oh you can disagree with their pov but their credentials are beyond reproach.

Their credentials as human and civil rights advocates, maybe. Their credentials as writers and thinkers are what we're concerned with here, and no one's credentials are beyond reproach in those areas.

Their character is not the issue. You know that; at least, you should.

quote:

And for the record, I have never "assasinated anyone's character"

Not in your mind, maybe...but many have felt assassinated, and many others have agreed with them.

quote:

and while I don't feel that I am "stupid" (that's a word btw that my children use when they are angry)

Yeah, I bet they also use the word "no." Point?

Oh, wait. Are you trying to put Scout down for using the word "stupid"? What a nasty, petty, ignorant tactic. I should think you, of all people, would consider yourself above that.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 08:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, but you claim to have all the experts on your side, and you ignore every article that isn't if you cannot immediately discredit it.


Please show me where I make such a claim.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just because you and others critisize my debating style does not make you right either.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, it just makes you a lousy debater.


Only in the opinion of people who don't like what I say. If that in your humble opinion makes me a "lousy debater" so be it.

quote:
Their credentials as human and civil rights advocates, maybe. Their credentials as writers and thinkers are what we're concerned with here, and no one's credentials are beyond reproach in those areas.

Their character is not the issue. You know that; at least, you should.


Let me see if I have this right you think oh let's see Elie Wiesel, winner of the Nobel peace prize and the Nobel prize for literature is neither a great writer or thinker. And you believe that Thomas Friedman one of the most progressive and lauded writers and journalists of this generation is also not a great writer or thinker. OK you are of course entitled to this opinion. But I would give it some reconsideration if I were you.

quote:
And for the record, I have never "assasinated anyone's character"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not in your mind, maybe...but many have felt assassinated, and many others have agreed with them.


Sorry but I try my best to be honest and upfront. It is not my intention to cause grief. Smith if I have caused you grief I apologize. However my positions still stand.

quote:
and while I don't feel that I am "stupid" (that's a word btw that my children use when they are angry)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, I bet they also use the word "no." Point?

Oh, wait. Are you trying to put Scout down for using the word "stupid"? What a nasty, petty, ignorant tactic. I should think you, of all people, would consider yourself above that.


Smith you are quite right it was a bit nasty (the rest of the adjectives you used were unecessary and ad hominem hyperbole)sorry Scout.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 08:45 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Only in the opinion of people who don't like what I say. If that in your humble opinion makes me a "lousy debater" so be it.

Please, if you can find one babbler who doesn't think you're a lousy debater (barring Sparky, who is a hate-mongerer), do so. I invite all fans of Mishei the Incredible Debater to please, please speak up!

quote:

Let me see if I have this right you think oh let's see Elie Wiesel, winner of the Nobel peace prize and the Nobel prize for literature is neither a great writer or thinker.

No, I think his writing and thinking in this case is wrong. Ditto Thomas Friedman.

Great thinkers often disagree with other great thinkers; being a "great thinker" doesn't make a person right all the time.

quote:

Sorry but I try my best to be honest and upfront.

BWAH!

quote:

Smith if I have caused you grief I apologize. However my positions still stand.

A fake, weasel apology, of course. You have acknowledged nothing and you have learned nothing. You are about as sorry as I am for calling you a weasel - i.e. not at all.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 08:50 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
entitled to your opinion even when you are wrong

Oh, thank you Mishei. You are so wise when you condescend, as you do non-stop, is condescending a recognized form of debate?

Again with the reference to childish behavior to those who diliske your antics, I am by the way the second female poster you have called childish after I questioned why anyone should believe your opinion over any other posters and all because I disagreed with your tactics.

You specialize in ad hominem, that many people have pointed out and pointed out again where you suggestively place people in a postion to defend themselves as the spectre of anti-semitism. Is this also a style of debate?

You may not have outright claimed to be an expert but you never have outright claimed to have called anyone an anti-semite, but it is clear to many that you have done the latter, more than once. Also, you have continually dismissed other posters sources with nothing to actually discredit the source other than your opinion.


quote:
Just because you and others critisize my debating style does not make you right either.

Yes, we are all wrong and you are right. No matter how we object or how many of us it will never be enough to get you admit your past practices and to promise not continue them or even to just leave.

Most stupid people don't know their stupid Mishei, but thanks for attempting to answer my question anyway.

And I respectfully do not accept your apology. You knew what you were about when you posted. As you always know what your are about. Your apology is only a way to try and gain back some creditablity, it just doesn't wash.

Do you ever get tired of typing "ad hominem"?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 09:00 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In light of the identity of the particular people he compared to "children," perhaps "ad feminam" is more appropriate.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 09:02 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh, thank you Mishei. You are so wise when you condescend, as you do non-stop, is condescending a recognized form of debate?

Again with the reference to childish behavior to those who diliske your antics, I am by the way the second female poster you have called childish after I questioned why anyone should believe your opinion over any other posters and all because I disagreed with your tactics.

You specialize in ad hominem, that many people have pointed out and pointed out again where you suggestively place people in a postion to defend themselves as the spectre of anti-semitism. Is this also a style of debate?

You may not have outright claimed to be an expert but you never have outright claimed to have called anyone an anti-semite, but it is clear to many that you have done the latter, more than once. Also, you have continually dismissed other posters sources with nothing to actually discredit the source other than your opinion.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because you and others critisize my debating style does not make you right either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, we are all wrong and you are right. No matter how we object or how many of us it will never be enough to get you admit your past practices and to promise not continue them or even to just leave.

Most stupid people don't know their stupid Mishei, but thanks for attempting to answer my question anyway.

And I respectfully do not accept your apology. You knew what you were about when you posted. As you always know what your are about. Your apology is only a way to try and gain back some creditablity, it just doesn't wash.

Do you ever get tired of typing "ad hominem"?


Scout, The fact that you are a woman is neither here nor there. I did not know your sex when I started this post. I rarely look at the identity cards and most of them are off the wall anyway. I apologized for the remark if you refuse to accept the apology that is your problem.

I repeat I have never called or inferred that anyone here was an anti-semite. Tthe fact that you refuse to accept this is again your problem not mine.

I have never said you were all wrong and I am always right. Please show me where I have said such a thing.

Stupid is as stupid does.

I need no credibility from you Scout. There is much passion on The Middle East on this Board I try to respond the best I can. I know im in the minority here and you would like nothing better than for me to leave so that you and your friends can have a one sided yes-yes discussion. However that is not my style. I am just not that easily bullied.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 09:11 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stupid is as stupid does.

Amen.

quote:
I know im in the minority here and you would like nothing better than for me to leave so that you and your friends can have a one sided yes-yes discussion. However that is not my style. I am just not that easily bullied.

Again with the martyr complex. Yes, you know what, Mishei? I would like you to leave. I would like you to leave so that someone more worthy could take your place. I would like to deal with a pro-Israeli poster who could at least see both sides of the issue, who could talk about Israel instead of constantly hinting and bitching about others' supposed antisemitism (or linking to "credible sources" bitching about others' supposed antisemitism), who could read what people actually wrote and not tar us all with the same brush, because we don't all think the same things, we have significant differences, and we don't get to talk about those differences because you are always in there with your baiting and your peevish complaints.

There is a wide spectrum of opinions in here, but you don't see it because the only people whose true opinions count are those who back you up constantly. Everyone else is just the enemy.

I would like you to leave so I could deal with someone with some ear for nuance. I would like you to leave so I could feel dignified pity for both sides instead of being pushed to the heights of irritation by your muddle-headed blather. I would like you to leave so someone else could take over the pro-Israeli side of the debate, someone who could argue honestly, someone who could friggin' spell.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 09:19 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I apologized for the remark if you refuse to accept the apology that is your problem.

Not much of a problem, really. I just don't accept it, see that was simple, not a problem at all.

quote:
I repeat I have never called or inferred that anyone here was an anti-semite. Tthe fact that you refuse to accept this is again your problem not mine.

No, it is your problem. It has been dissected and explained to you that you have made people feel that way. Other posters aren't being quoted as doing so and not one poster alone is peeved at the suggestions of anti-semitism. But I can't see how you would ever admit that you have done so. Not that you have much creditablity to lose if you did.


quote:
Stupid is as stupid does.

Thanks Forest.

quote:
I need no credibility from you Scout

Personal creditablilty can't come from another person. It comes from how you interact with those around you. You have left a path of hurt and offended people and you accept no real responsibilty for that, just claims of paranoia. You dismiss others sources out of hand or ignore them, not very creditble either.

quote:
I am just not that easily bullied.

Neither are bullies.


quote:
I rarely look at the identity cards and most of them are off the wall anyway. I apologized for the remark if you refuse to accept the apology that is your problem.

You rarely look yet know that most of them, here on babble, are off the wall? That's amazing. Is generalization another tactic of debate?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 09:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout,Mishei, DJstealth,Sarcasmobri,Daoine come on give me a break these are all real names ? Look, it is an uphill battle here on the Middle East and I know you hate the things I post. Fine I can live with that. I can live with you insulting me and disecting every word I say. Im here I will post what I believe I should and unless I am breaking any rabble rules I will continue to do so. Respond, insult and hurl invective all you want ...sticks and stones Scout...sticks and stones...
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 09:42 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...sticks and stones Scout...sticks and stones...

...glass houses Mishei...glass houses.

Are you saying I called you a bully? Or are you saying you called me stupid or that by asking you if you were stupid I was calling you anything at all? What are you getting at Mishei? Double speak can get confusing can't it?

quote:
give me a break these are all real names ?

I am sure they are. But I am equally sure other posters I respect are using articles with authors with real names too.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 09:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout, we are all free to use whatever authors we feel will best prove our points. And we are all free to disagree with whoever and whatever they say.

So, let's just move on shall we. If you feel that I am violating Rabble rules please feel free to register an official complaint. that's the procedure.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 09:59 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, let's just move on shall we. If you feel that I am violating Rabble rules please feel free to register an official complaint. that's the procedure.

Thanks for the heads up, as I haven't been here that long, I just fell off the turnip truck you know, over a year ago. You really do condescension well.

As for registering a complaint about you, the next one won't be my first one.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 10:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for registering a complaint about you, the next one won't be my first one.


Well Scout if it wasn't your first I have yet to hear from the "authorities" about rule breaking. For my edification which of the Rabble rules do you think Im violating. I havent seen a rule here that says you can't be pro-Israel.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 10:20 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, let's just move on shall we.

So, you didn't really want to move on?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 10:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, you didn't really want to move on?
Well I did but when you issued your warning about a complaint I felt compelled to defend myself. BTW, I note you were unable to demonstrtae which rule it was that you think I may be violating. As I said I wont be bullied. Now if you are prepared to move on then so am I.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 10:47 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I felt compelled to defend myself

Interesting choice of words.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Scout ]


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 10:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I felt compelled to defend myself
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting choice of words.


Hmmm I'm unfamiliar with that rule.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 10:50 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I note you were unable to demonstrtae which rule it was that you think I may be violating.

Fortunately/unfortunately there is no specific rule against being a peevish, sanctimonious bully.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 10:52 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fortunately/unfortunately there is no specific rule against being a peevish, sanctimonious bully.


Ahhh yes Smith the second half of the bullying twosome heard from yet again.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 10:55 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you're just lucky this doesn't come down to a vote.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 10:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Smith because on this board anyone who is pro-Israel would get the boot in a hurry if it came down to a vote. Especially if the person happens to be passionate in his/her beliefs challenging peoples conceptions and hard held theories.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 10:59 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, I note you were unable to demonstrtae which rule it was that you think I may be violating.

Not unable, unwilling.

quote:
As I said I wont be bullied

I can debate you Mishei and I can make complaints against you but I can't threaten your with banning here, so I fail to see how I am a bully. I can't make you do anything against your will here.

And there you go again, with the name calling which you have claimed you with not partake in as it is immature. Hippocrit.

It may not come down to a vote but it could easily come down to Mishei being ignored and his threads avoided.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3321

posted 03 December 2002 11:08 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sigh
From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 11:09 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes Smith because on this board anyone who is pro-Israel would get the boot in a hurry if it came down to a vote.

That's bullshit, and you know it. I don't see anyone calling for the removal of CyberNomad, or mandrake (at least, not until recently), or SHH, or sheep...

"Waa, waa, waa, I'm a martyr. Waa, waa, waa."

quote:

Especially if the person happens to be passionate in his/her beliefs challenging peoples conceptions and hard held theories.

You are not "challenging" anyone. You don't have the wit to be challenging. You are just lumpish and obnoxious, and you mistake stupidity for strength.

As for "conceptions and hard held theories," oh, wow, I think your whole glass house collapsed under that one.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 11:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And there you go again, with the name calling which you have claimed you with not partake in as it is immature. Hippocrit.
I think this is better meant for Smith who posted the following:

quote:
You don't have the wit to be challenging. You are just lumpish and obnoxious, and you mistake stupidity for strength
Frankly, Im getting real tired of having to respond to this childishness. And yes I am calling you children and yes i know you are both women but it's the childishness that gets to me.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 11:19 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I never claimed I wouldn't call you names. No, you are the hypocrite, Mishei.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 11:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I never claimed I wouldn't call you names.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 December 2002 11:34 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Frankly, Im getting real tired of having to respond to this childishness.

Who is forcing you?

quote:
nd yes I am calling you children and yes i know you are both women but it's the childishness that gets to me.

Except, your playing right along. So that would make you childish too. Right in there with the name calling and then having the nerve to call us childish, that's the hippocrit part incase you missed it. But you can't even see how silly you are can you.

Let see tonight you have called me a bully, childish, and stupid and you had previously said you wouldn't sink to name calling. See Mishei, you have no creditabilty, and no one to blame for yourself.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 December 2002 11:35 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
no one to blame for yourself.

Well, maybe his mother...

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 December 2002 11:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let see tonight you have called me a bully, childish, and stupid and you had previously said you wouldn't sink to name calling. See Mishei, you have no creditabilty, and no one to blame for yourself.


Scout and Smith, you're right you guys took me down for the count.I succumbed and used immature tactics like name-calling. I am ashamed that I fed into your nastiness and I apologize to the Board unreservedly. Now you will post something to respond because YOU MUST. and you know what Im not going to react because when it comes to namecalling I just canoot beat the two of you. Congratulations!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 04 December 2002 11:19 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I repeat I have never called or inferred that anyone here was an anti-semite.

As someone who has been accused by Mishie as having "crossed the antisemitic line," I would like to say, partaking in the full spirit of this particular debate, "Liar liar pants on fire."


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 04 December 2002 11:36 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My dad can beat up your dad
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1562

posted 04 December 2002 11:39 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
nyah nyah
From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 11:44 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes Smith because on this board anyone who is pro-Israel would get the boot in a hurry if it came down to a vote.

Oh, gee, thanks. I feel so complimented. I feel that my defence of democratic principle has been so deeply appreciated, and I bet most other babblers are puddling up at the same thought.

Now hear this: babble is not an arm of the Canadian Alliance. We know what's wrong with referendums about basic civil liberties in these parts. And Mishei, you should know better.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 04 December 2002 11:58 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei said that?
Well, tell me again, who is paranoid?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 12:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey people it was Smith who suggested a "vote" when she posted;

quote:
Mishei, you're just lucky this doesn't come down to a vote.
Was this OK Skadl?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 04 December 2002 12:30 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I in no way "blithely" dismiss civilian casualties. I just point out that it is not the same as a planned terrorist murder.

I thought the IDF was a military outfit, where planning of strategy and tactic is central. I guess IDF soldiers are just minding there own business taking sight-seeing strolls around Palestinian neighborhoods when BLAMO, the rifle goes off by accident. If the IDF actions are not planned and they are prone both to misidentifications and accidental discharges of lethal weaponary, they have no business engaging in operations outside of Israel.

Let them stay at home and where they can 'accidentally' shoot Israelis. Didn't this happen recently to a Morrocan Jew in Tel Aviv -- to brown to be trusted I suppose.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 04 December 2002 12:53 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually Israel did pass judgement in a lengthy inquiry. Sharon was found to have some responsibility for the massacre and was forced to resign his post as I recall.

An inquiry is not a court of law, as you are obviously aware because you have repeatedly protested Sharon's "innocence" of any war crimes. That inquiry you mention found grounds for prosecution, but the Israeli courts declined to prosecute on the grounds that the massacre occurred outside of Israel. So Sharon's legal status is technically "innocent" in Israel, but as you mention, his culpabilty was acknowledged.

The inexplicable thing to me is, how can anyone vote for a guy who is "partially responsible" for the massacre of 3500 refugees?


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 02:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
to brown to be trusted I suppose.

This is a blatantly racist statement made without any proof whatsoever. I thought such posts were not to be tolerated on Babble?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 04 December 2002 03:22 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are we done with Sharon then? Responsible for war crimes, in the eyes of the Israeli govt. Anything further to add?

I can see a couple of ways that comment could be construed as racist. Is it the implication that Israel treats its darker-skinned citizens differently than its lighter-skinned ones that you object to, or simply the assertion that brown people can't be trusted?


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 04 December 2002 03:34 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"too brown to be trusted I suppose."
---------

This is a blatantly racist statement made without any proof whatsoever. I thought such posts were not to be tolerated on Babble?


Geez, Mishie, you yourself said the Egyptian press can't be trusted. Why is that? Is such a statement itself not racist by your own criteria?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 03:49 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can see a couple of ways that comment could be construed as racist. Is it the implication that Israel treats its darker-skinned citizens differently than its lighter-skinned ones that you object to, or simply the assertion that brown people can't be trusted?


Come on you people how long are you prepared to tolerate this bullshit? Why the silence?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 December 2002 03:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know a couple of Middle Eastern men who lived in Israel for a couple of years. They have darker skin, and a definite "Arab" look, and the discrimination and racism was pronounced - every day, everywhere they went. They definitely believed it was a case of them being "too brown to be trusted".

Not to mention that one of those men I know also knew Arabs who converted to Judaism but still suffered lots of racism, and he was told by Jews with darker skin that they were often discriminated against and not considered "real Jews" by a lot of people they encountered.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 04 December 2002 03:57 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's your complete answer? I'm full of shit, am I?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 04 December 2002 03:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why the silence?

Good question. I will answer. Because it is all bullshit, mishei.
Look, this is what I can do with Control-V on my keyboard.
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!
No, you are the racist!

And I can do that forever. And that essentially quantifies the value of the discussion on this thread.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 04:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know a couple of Middle Eastern men who lived in Israel for a couple of years. They have darker skin, and a definite "Arab" look, and the discrimination and racism was pronounced - every day, everywhere they went. They definitely believed it was a case of them being "too brown to be trusted".
Not to mention that one of those men I know also knew Arabs who converted to Judaism but still suffered lots of racism, and he was told by Jews with darker skin that they were often discriminated against and not considered "real Jews" by a lot of people they encountered.


Clearly, none of you have been to Israel. The vast majority of Israelis today are Sabras (Israeli born). They are all Middle eastern in appearance hence they are dark skinned dark eyes hair etc. Does this mean they treat each other differently?

As well, as I recall Israel rescued thousands of Ethiopian Jews from sure starvation bringing them to live in Israel. Surely not the act of a racist culture.

That said, as in any society Israel struggles with race and class issues...but no more and no less than other like democracies.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 04 December 2002 04:28 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'know, it seems there isn't any hope for this race. At all, period, none, ziltch.

If some lunatic doesn't blast us into dust in his determination to turn the planet into a glass parking lot over some VERY important issue, we seem certain to gut eachother over disagreements on where we go when we expire, and for the disagreements over said reason last year, the year before that, a few decades or centuries ago.

I think we need another massive volcanic explosion, or a flood, or a meteor.

Every single Babble thread on the Middle East, even one's with a somewhat hopeful thread title and initial link, decends into vitriolic name calling, accusations and fury. Nothing pushes my head further into the swamp of mysanthropy faster than reading this.

We can't look up at night sky and realise that we're all the same. We're an "advanced" species of primate who were fortunate enough / cursed with self-awarness and abstract thought. We're lucky enough to be on a planet that supports life easily, for now, and it's the only rock we've found so far that does this, it's all that we have.... yet we can't even stop slaughtering eachother, much less co-operate.

Very, very, sad.

I'm done now, feel free to call me naaive, or whatever.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 December 2002 04:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If some lunatic doesn't blast us into dust in his determination to turn the planet into a glass parking lot over some VERY important issue

I think it's pretty easy for us rich North Americans to sit in our comfy chairs and call people in the third world "lunatics" and belittle their issues.

Maybe their issues are life and death to them because they have nothing to lose, unlike those of us who have the luxury to wring our hands over the state of the world.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 04:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good but sad point Michelle
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 04:45 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh. I thought Trin was referring to Dubya.

Oh. But oh again. That's right. She said "lunatic" -- not "moron."

Silly me. Never mind.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 04 December 2002 04:45 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wasn't thinking of the "Third World", actually.
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 04 December 2002 04:56 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe their issues are life and death to them because they have nothing to lose

I think I know what you mean. Sometimes though I think people attempt to excuse bad acts because of the allged poverty of people in the Third World. Frankly that is an insult to the millions--if not billions--of poor people world-wide who do not resort to murder even if they are angry and frustrated at the West.

We have a duty to help whom we can, but poverty is no excuse for mass murder/terrorism.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 04 December 2002 05:07 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We have a duty to help whom we can, but poverty is no excuse for mass murder/terrorism.

And neither is obscene wealth, nice uniforms and high tech weapons, which as a result of their design, and th distance and other terms of their use do not differentiate between civilian and combatant.

But back to the point...

Mishei:

quote:
Actually Israel did pass judgement in a lengthy inquiry. Sharon was found to have some responsibility for the massacre and was forced to resign his post as I recall.

And so the 'innocent' Israeli civilian were so appalled by his behaviour, and dismayed at his iresponsibility that they decided he would make a great prime minsiter. It is not surprising that the Palestinians do not differentiate between civilian and combatant.

Are those who hire the thugs, untouchable because they do not pull the trigger?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 05:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And so the 'innocent' Israeli civilian were so appalled by his behaviour, and dismayed at his iresponsibility that they decided he would make a great prime minsiter. It is not
Alas if it were only so simple how happy you would be. But the truth is far more complicated. After 12 years in the political wilderness, Sharon re-emerges and thanks to Arafat's attempts to derail the peace negotiations at Camp David and Taba Sharon becomes credible again.

With the start of homicide bombings, and the view that Barak could deliver neither peace or security the Israeli voter opted for security with Sharon.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 04 December 2002 05:19 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
... and as you also may recall, many Falasha have complained quite publicly about the treatment they have recieved since then, particularly in the matter of blood donation. The "ethnic" tensions between the Sephardic and Ashkenazi populations are also fairly well established... I have been made acutely aware of them here in Canada by Jewish families.

You yourself have confirmed that Israeli racism exists. It may be rude or offensive to say so in this context, but merely saying so is not in and of itself racist, because "Israeli" is no more a "race" than "Canadian" is. If it was the anecdote you wanted cited, you should've taken that tack and left the racist charge alone.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 04 December 2002 05:21 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are there people here who are actually in favor of terrorism? I can already see there are several people who think that defending against terrorism is always wrong, but I wonder how many would actually rejoice if a stolen Russian nuke was detonated on the East River in 2005?
From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 05:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
minigun, support your charges with names and quotes, or just stow it.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 04 December 2002 05:28 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It wasn't a "charge", it was a question. Seems to have touched a nerve though. 'Nuff said.
From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 04 December 2002 05:29 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't believe that you think the word 'terorism' is anything more than an abtract noun, which has been applied for generations by one side to describe the other, as if it has use beyond the immediate propganda needs of those who choose to use the word.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 04 December 2002 05:29 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How on earth can a vote for someone with such obvious callous disregard for human life ever result in greater "security"?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 04 December 2002 05:31 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trinity:

This seems like a good response to your earlier post:

click

quote:
These brave women had learned the Big Secret, which Osama Bin Laden, George Bush, Jr., and Ariel Sharon do not want you to know: There are no Jews, Muslims, Christians, Arabs, Israelis, or Americans in this world. There are only human beings. They cannot be boxed in, excluded out, extra-judicially killed, illegally imprisoned, economically disenfranchised, collectively deported, silently tortured, or buried in mass graves without risking a further, perhaps permanent, descent into that wreck where all of us now live.

From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 05:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
and as you also may recall, many Falasha have complained quite publicly about the treatment they have recieved since then, particularly in the matter of blood donation. The "ethnic" tensions between the Sephardic and Ashkenazi populations are also fairly well established... I have been made acutely aware of them here in Canada by Jewish families.
Firstly, the Ethiopoian Jews do not like being referred to as "Falasha" it is seen as derogatory. Secondly, the airlift of thousands of Ethiopian Jews to Israel did create problems but the fact is Israel is prepared to deal with these problems head on. The blood scandal was just that a scandal. Occurring BTW a number of years ago. As time goes on the Ethipopian community are becomimg more and more integrated into Israeli society. You ofcourse will only harp on the negative, the racist perceptions in your mind. I choose to look at the positive qualities within Israel that permits such positive change.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 04 December 2002 05:38 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads, I have received many complaints about your "too brown" comment. I know you feel strongly, but you're out of line.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 04 December 2002 05:41 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can't believe that you think the word 'terorism' is anything more than an abtract noun, which has been applied for generations by one side to describe the other, as if it has use beyond the immediate propganda needs of those who choose to use the word.

So... we are morally equivalent to al Quaeda. I guess that means we can take the gloves off now.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 05:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can already see there are several people who think that defending against terrorism is always wrong,

minigun, that is a charge; it is not a question; and you will document it, or you will apologize for it.

These are dangerous charges in Canada. You are accusing babblers of things that may be against the law here.

Prove it, or stow it.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 December 2002 05:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
minigun, that is a charge; it is not a question; and you will document it, or you will apologize for it.

These are dangerous charges in Canada. You are accusing babblers of things that may be against the law here.


Skdadl, while I am not defending mini's position I wonder if you can clarify for me how, in your opinion, mini's comments are "against the law". She may be wrong or provocative but i just cannot see how her comment is in any way illegal.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 04 December 2002 05:45 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So... we are morally equivalent to al Quaeda.

Absolutely, ask the people of Hanoi.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 05:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, in little words:

I was not saying that mini was in danger of breaking the law: I was saying that mini was making a vague charge that some babblers were doing things that may in fact be against the law in Canada.

ie: he is slandering babble, with no proof. OK?

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 04 December 2002 05:48 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
mini's comments are "against the law

You must be tied, read it again: she said that defending terrorism is likely againts the law, and that he should substantiate his claim or not make it.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 04 December 2002 05:49 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Skdadl, while I am not defending mini's position I wonder if you can clarify for me how, in your opinion, mini's comments are "against the law".

Do read for comprehension, Mishei. minigun "asked":

quote:
Are there people here who are actually in favor of terrorism? I can already see there are several people who think that defending against terrorism is always wrong, but I wonder how many would actually rejoice if a stolen Russian nuke was detonated on the East River in 2005?

To which skdadl replied:

quote:
You are accusing babblers of things that may be against the law here.

... i.e., aiding and abetting terrorism.

quote:
minigun, that is a charge; it is not a question; and you will document it, or you will apologize for it.

I'll wager, skdadl, he'll end up doing neither.

By the way, minigun, I thought you flounced out of here dramatically, some while ago? Couldn't keep away from us, hey? Well, that's flattering, I suppose.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 05:50 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or to put it another way: minigun is not in danger: he is putting others in danger.

But then ... (ok: I won't finish that sarcastic line)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 05:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS: I have to leave to cook supper soon, but just before I go, I thought I'd send my regards to some of my very best friends on the board. So:

Hi, CSIS! Hi, CIA! Hi, Rummy! Have a nice supper. I know I will.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 04 December 2002 05:58 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I have seen others do, the aphorism goes as follows:

"Have a nice day, and greetings to all our friends in domestic surveillance"


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 04 December 2002 06:01 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I'd especially like to thank all the members of the Illinois law enforcement community who've chosen to be with us tonight in the Palace Hotel ballroom..."

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 December 2002 06:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

This is just making me feel so warm all over.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 04 December 2002 06:04 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hi, CSIS! Hi, CIA! Hi, Rummy! Have a nice supper. I know I will.

Well, at least this in on topic, being a thread about breaking fasts and all.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 04 December 2002 06:04 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excellent.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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