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Author Topic: Israelis detain Canadian
Arch Stanton
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posted 16 November 2002 12:31 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A Saskatoon man, who had gone to Palestine to act as an observer and "human shield" during the olive harvest, has been arrested by Israeli forces.

click

Two people from Saskatoon, including the detainee, have been sending despatches back from the West Bank. You can read them here.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
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posted 16 November 2002 01:16 PM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for that post Arch, I've been looking for info on Tom all day. Do you know Tom?
From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 16 November 2002 01:24 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know Tom, but I've met many people who do.
From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
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posted 16 November 2002 01:30 PM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've known him since high school. We've hung in different circles, mostly, since then, but I've managed to run into him a couple times a year.

He was big into Oxfam the last time I talked to him.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 November 2002 01:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read the dispatches, Arch, as recent as there are. Everyone should. Thanks for the link.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 November 2002 02:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The dispatches are too bloody depressing. I quit reading them halfway through.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 November 2002 02:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While some will praise Tom's altruism, and while I still believe Israel has to find a way to get out of the WB, he put himself in the position that he now finds himself.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 November 2002 02:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As, finally, all people of conscience must do.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 16 November 2002 06:26 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
he put himself in the position that he now finds himself.

That was why he went; to be a witness to what is happening there. If a Canadian once gets the same treatment Palestinians experience every day, it makes the news here.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 16 November 2002 06:48 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He is a lucky bloke.

If he were to do, on behalf of Israel, what he did on behalf of the Palestinians, the Palestinians would shoot him and then hang him for all to see (and celebrate).

If he were to do it in Saudi Arabia, he would be beheaded, like this Canadian ...
TorStar article.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 16 November 2002 07:43 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the link Arch...
that was a powerful article

From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 November 2002 08:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know folks the region is a bit of a war zone. And then who comes along ? Those who believe they know best...are on morally higher ground and will let the IDF know.

Fences were being built because innocent Israeli citizens including children are being murdered by terrorists. They are being murdered in their bedrooms and the children slaughtered as their mother fought desperastely to protect them. They are being murdered as they return from Sabbath services.

What is Tom going to do about that? I suppose he will say to the terrorists, "hey guys stop murdering the Jews OK? MMMM yes that's it that will work


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 November 2002 08:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A "war zone". But there has been no technical declaration of war. If there was the Geneva convention would apply. So it is not a "war zone".

I again find this curious selectivity somewhat astonishing.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 16 November 2002 09:05 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Using DrConway's logic, it's all the more reason why any sane person should stay away.

As I should have said, he is one hell of a lucky sh*t-disturber.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 16 November 2002 10:48 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If he were to do, on behalf of Israel, what he did on behalf of the Palestinians

Do what? Give directions to bulldozer drivers?

Your comparison isn't valid. Every news outlet in the western world gives coverage whenever an Israeli is attacked but, as we have seen on this very forum, people in the West aren't being informed about settler attacks on Palestinian olive farmers trying to harvest their crops.

Yes, Mishei, Occupied Palestine is a war zone. The occupying army makes it that way.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 16 November 2002 10:54 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What is Tom going to do about that? I suppose he will say to the terrorists, "hey guys stop murdering the Jews OK? MMMM yes that's it that will work

Because, of course, murder of Jews is the ONLY problem that matters in that region.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 16 November 2002 11:19 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, who is right? DrConway or Arch Stanton.

[This is better than Svend vs Concordia.]


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 16 November 2002 11:26 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What Tom is doing is somewhat comparable to the King of Denmark wearing the Star of David when his country was under occupation.

I know Mishei will go apoplectic at the comparison, but I'm not responsible for his condition.

CyberNomad; your insistence that either Doc or me is right well illustrates that the situation is not black vs. white or good vs. evil.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 November 2002 12:33 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What Tom is doing is somewhat comparable to the King of Denmark wearing the Star of David when his country was under occupation.
I really thought this sickness you had Arch where in any way possible you could find a way to compare Israel's situation with that of the nazis was over. But like a cancer it's poison has come back. I have said this once and I will say it again, anyone who compares Israel and Jews in the present situation with all it's inherant problems to nazis or nazism crosses the antisemitic line.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 17 November 2002 12:35 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I really thought this sickness you had Arch where in any way possible you could find a way to compare Israel's situation with that of the
nazis was over. But like a cancer it's poison has come back. I have said this once and I will say it again, anyone who compares Israel and Jews in the present situation with all it's inherant problems to nazis or nazism crosses the antisemitic line.

For someone who whines so much about slander, you're rather free with accusations.

Your saying "crosses the antisemitic line" pretty well amounts to you calling me an antisemite.

The world is not divided into supporters of Israel and antisemites. People who disagree with you are not sick or cancerous or filled with poison, no matter how strongly you believe in your own position.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 17 November 2002 12:43 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
anyone who compares Israel and Jews in the present situation with all it's inherant problems to nazis or nazism crosses the antisemitic line.

I think that's a bit of a generalization, isn't it? I don't think Arch was trying to say that the two situations were equivalent. He was trying to interpret the Canadian's purposes...

And isn't the history of Israel rather tightly bound up with what happened in WWII?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 17 November 2002 12:49 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
not anti semitic, just anti death
From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 November 2002 12:50 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sounds like a personal attack to me. Please stop.
Arch, according to your own post you seemed to know full well that this sort of statement would engender the response you received from me.

You knew my position and all I did was reiterate it. In fact Im trying (God knows why) to give you the benefit of the doubt. My position is clear. It goes for those who wish to venture into this evil field of comparing Israel with nazism. I believe this with all my soul and will confront it whenever and wherever it appears. Make your critisisms about Israel, Israeli policy and whatever, please I ask you , I urge you all please lay off the nazi comparisions. Let's leave at least some civility in the discussion.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 17 November 2002 12:55 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This just in:

"Hello everyone,

Just wanted to send out an update on Thomas Linner's situation. I just talked to his Dad who has told me that there is some disagreement as to
Thomas' situation that is being worked out presently between the International Solidarity Movement, the Isreali authorities and the Canadian
conuslate. Mr. Linner asked me to pass along to keep the pressure on the Canadian and Israeli governments to release Thomas as soon as possible. We should also be condemning the Israeli actions against the Palestinians in the construction of the "security perimeter" (let's not forget what Thomas and Rachel were standing up for in our effort to get our comrade out of jail).

I have posted a new page and new links on the Making the Links webpage with information on how to help Thomas including contact info and links to
mainstream media coverage of the arrests. This would be a good place to refer people to who are looking for updates. The link is:

www.makingthelinksradio.ca/Main_Page/helpthomas.htm

I have also posted all of Rachel and Thomas' reports from Palestine at:

www.makingthelinksradio.ca/Main_Page/palestine_main.htm

There is also a correction for the email address that I gave out earlier for the Canadian Consulate (thanks Crystal). The correct address is

sos@dfait-maeci.gc.ca


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 November 2002 12:55 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Your saying "crosses the antisemitic line" pretty well amounts to you calling me an antisemite.

The world is not divided into supporters of Israel and antisemites.


No. Im actually rather careful in throwing around the antisemitic label. However I very clearly draw the line at comparisions of jews and Israel to nazis.

Now in this instance I did not call you an antisemite. Clearly I stated that such comparisions cross the antisemitic line. It is possible that in the heat of argumentation people may cross the line. It does not necessarily make them antismeitic. If the behaviour continues then that is another matter altogether.

I never said the world is black and white as you claim. You know where I draw my line. If you wish to continue with this sick and evil comparision then it is you who will label yourself not me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 17 November 2002 01:05 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's More:

"From Don...

I have been working as well with Michelle Beveridge, Martha Tracey on phone calls into the consulate/embassy links in Canada and Israel and keeping in touch with Thomas's parents. We have got Dick Proctor MP on board and he is doing some very good work on pressuring officials on how important it is that Thomas be safe and be allowed to return to Canada.

The latest update is that Thomas will be going into a hearing tomorrow and that the Canadian Embassy is supposedly on top of the case and in touch with Israeli authorities.

This should in no way stop the pressures. The following numbers should be phoned and people should not be put off if they say they are only dealing with family. (The Canadian Consulate number is 1 800 267 6788. Their email sos@dfait-maeci.gc.ca The International Solidarity
Movement rep for North America is 734 668 1549.) We have replied that the whole community here is concerned and we want to be assured that he is safe and we want him home.

I am passing on the number of the Israeli Embassy here as well because they should know about our concerns directly and this may help getting Thomas and others released in the hearing tomorrow.

The phone number for the Israeli Embassy is Ottawa is 613-567-6450. The fax no. is 237-8865. The Ambassador is His Excellency Mr. Haim Divon
(pronounced like deevon, or d'yvonne). The email address is ottawa@israel.org. Feel free to circulate this note.

In Solidarity,

Don"


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 17 November 2002 01:08 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He will label himself in your eyes, Mishei, not in mine. You may not be an anti-Semite, even by your own exceedingly loose definition, but I'd be more likely to trust Arch on this subject than you.

quote:
I really thought this sickness you had Arch where in any way possible you could find a way to compare Israel's situation with that of the nazis was over.

So you believe that Arch compares (or compared) Israel's situation to that of the Nazis "in any way possible"?

In other words, you believed he made these comparisons at many times other than "the heat of argumentation"...

Which would, by your standards, mark him as an anti-Semite, no? I'm just putting two and two together here. Am I wrong?

Frankly, I think you're getting worked up about a very peripheral comparison. As I said, Arch never suggested in this thread that the one situation was the equivalent of the other.

However, when pro-Israeli speakers, or Israeli soldiers, use the precise rhetoric of the Nazis, it is pretty hard not to make some sort of comparison, even if it is mostly unfounded, even if one only does it in one's head.

Edited because it pays to spell things correctly.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 17 November 2002 02:05 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Now in this instance I did not call you an antisemite. Clearly I stated that such comparisions cross the antisemitic line.

With as little prevarication as possible, please explain the difference between crossing "the [note the definite article] antisemitic line" and being an antisemite.

Can one move back and forth across this line? Have I previously not been an antisemite, but have now become an antisemite?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 17 November 2002 02:12 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think you're probably an anti-Semite when it's convenient for Mishei.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 17 November 2002 03:28 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mishei: you are like a large mouth bass, you can't pass up a well baited hook and end up in the frying pan.

Offer something other than the word anti-semite for once please, your slander is fucking boring. You are like a broken record with it and now your trying to be more sly with your accusation of it. And what are you trying to prove and to whom by calling just about anyone who has disagreed with your on various threads an anti-semite? Not open discussion, that's for sure. Why can't you just go away.

I don't care which side of this fence you are on, the dead on both sides are just people trying to have lives and are caught up in a war that neither leader cares to solve. I think both groups would like to just not be afraid anymore.

Also, it has been mentioned in other threads that the information we have isn't first hand but when a canadian goes to find out first hand he is looking for trouble. Damned if you do, damed if you don't.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 November 2002 04:49 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh Mishei, you know better. Arch's comparison was to acts of selflessness in the face of injustice. He was not literally comparing the two situations.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 November 2002 11:27 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Folks, I challenge you to find where I have named someone an antisemite callously. My criteria for this is focussed and clear.

Israel is not perfect by any means. It's leaders and Defence forces will as have other democratic nations, from time to time, make errors even grievious errors.

That stated, Israel is not Nazi Germany. You all know that. Therefore attempts at smearing Israel with a brush of nazism, in my books, crosses the antisemitic line. I have spoken to many Jews here in Canada on the Left who feel similarly in relation to this criteria.

You all here know what nazism is. You all here know the history of nazism. Therefore anyone who knowingly and wilfully paints Israel (and by extension it's citizens) with this evil brush is trying to claim Israel is beyond evil. This is hatemongering in my books.

Arch's comparision was, in my estimation, an attempt to re-introduce this comparision. True it was more indirect and that is why I am willing to give Arch the benefit of the doubt.

There is absolutely no need to engage this debate with allusions to nazism given all it's inherant comparisions. There are enough words, enough ways to critisize without invoking the spectre of nazi evil and cast it upon Israel.

Now Arch your question. Someone becomes racist or antisemitic when he or she knowingly and wilfully on a continued basis crosses the racist or antisemitic line. Yes it is possible for someone in the heat of argument to at times do and say something he or she does not mean. But when this continues conclusions must be drawn.

Smith as fer yew...yor constint adminishens recartink peepolz spelink on Babl iz az Odra haz tol yew bfor un kool.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 17 November 2002 11:56 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

You all here know what nazism is. You all here know the history of nazism. Therefore anyone who knowingly and wilfully paints Israel (and by extension it's citizens) with this evil brush is trying to claim Israel is beyond evil. This is hatemongering in my books.

See, I don't buy that. It would indeed be a hateful overstatement to suggest that Israel treats Palestinians the way the Nazis treated the Jews. But the Nazis used certain military and propaganda techniques, and made certain arguments, that continue to be used by other regimes, including Israel.

I don't think saying "those young soldiers are using the Nuremberg excuse" (when it is, in fact, true) is equivalent to saying "Israelis are just like Nazis." To some degree, all military oppressors are like Nazis. The Nazis just took the oppression a lot farther than anyone else.

And frankly, it's hard to think about Jews and oppression without thinking about Nazis, and when Jews in Israel do things that pretty much directly echo the early actions of the Nazis, it's pretty damn chilling.

quote:

Arch's comparision was, in my estimation, an attempt to re-introduce this comparision. True it was more indirect and that is why I am willing to give Arch the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't see "the benefit of the doubt" anywhere in your response to him, but whatever.

quote:

There is absolutely no need to engage this debate with allusions to nazism given all it's inherant comparisions. There are enough words, enough ways to critisize without invoking the spectre of nazi evil and cast it upon Israel.

If it offends you, I accept that, and I'm sorry. But it is neither baseless nor inherently anti-Semitic. I will personally try to avoid such comparisons to spare your feelings.

quote:

Smith as fer yew...yor constint adminishens recartink peepolz spelink on Babl iz az Odra haz tol yew bfor un kool.

What an unbelievably cheap shot. I hardly did that "constantly," and actually, I only did it to people I thought were being needlessly patronizing (only you and DJStealth), and I haven't done it on this thread, or anywhere, since Audra shut down the Ramallah thread.

Frankly, I only mentioned it because it amazes me that someone as old as you are, and as informed and opinionated as you are, should write so incredibly badly.

Anyway, Mishei, I'm quite all right with you thinking I'm uncool.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 November 2002 12:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And frankly, it's hard to think about Jews and oppression without thinking about Nazis, and when Jews in Israel do things that pretty much directly echo the early actions of the Nazis, it's pretty damn chilling.


While I appreciate you trying to spare my feelings but the above quote is exactly what I am talking about. It is a shameful comparision to make and I hope you are true to your word that you will not do it again. We'll see.

BTW Smith, you are new here. All of us make spelling errors now and again. Your judgement as to who is patronizing as your barometer to when you will point out these errors is childishness and unwelcome (as far as I understood it ) at Babble. Try to focus on what is written and stop thinking you are a school teacher. As well, your comments about my age were totally unecessary.

FYI, I know of at least one person on Babble who, for example, has fought dyslexia and has the courage to post here. He/she may make spelling errors. He/she may even be patronizing at times as all of us can be. You should be more sensitive and stick to arguments as opposed to critisizing grammar and spelling.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 17 November 2002 01:03 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
While I appreciate you trying to spare my feelings but the above quote is exactly what I am talking about. It is a shameful comparision to make and I hope you are true to your word that you will not do it again.

I don't understand how. When an Israeli soldier does something brutal and says "I am only following orders," how is that different from a Nazi soldier saying "I am only following orders"? When DJStealth suggested on the other thread that Palestinians were greedy little liars who didn't have feelings and ought to have thicker skins, that didn't ring any bells for you?

Sorry. You're not going to shame me just by telling me what I'm doing is shameful. I need a reason. Your vague moaning about your personal sacred cows will not make me ashamed of myself.

quote:

BTW Smith, you are new here. All of us make spelling errors now and again.

Believe me, you are beyond that level.

quote:

Your judgement as to who is patronizing as your barometer to when you will point out these errors is childishness and unwelcome (as far as I understood it ) at Babble.

And your judgment as to who is anti-Semitic and whom you will accuse of lying and hate-mongering isn't?

quote:

Try to focus on what is written

Oh, believe me, when there's anything worth replying to, I do. When you just ask me when I'm going to "stop lieing," I'm going to go for the spelling error. Cheap question, cheap answer.

quote:
As well, your comments about my age were totally unecessary.

I'm used to looking up to adults, but in your case I'll make an exception.

quote:

You should be more sensitive and stick to arguments as opposed to critisizing grammar and spelling.

I do that when you make an argument. When you just chastise and accuse, which, by the way, is the very definition of patronizing, and you do it a hell of a lot more than any other regular poster on this board, I feel entitled to "critisize" as much as I frickin' want to. If you're going to be petty and dictatorial, I see no reason to be "sensitive."

As for dyslexics, I would never pick on a person who made good arguments with poor spelling. You make bad arguments with atrocious spelling, and you attack and insult people too. When you talk about my "constant attempts to villify" you or call me a "liear," how do you expect me to respond?

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 November 2002 01:53 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Smith you are laughable. I have already received a number of private posts form babblers asking me to ignore your nonsence so I will .
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 17 November 2002 02:33 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Now Arch your question. Someone becomes racist or antisemitic when he or she knowingly and wilfully on a continued basis crosses the racist or antisemitic line. Yes it is possible for someone in the heat of argument to at times do and say something he or she does not mean. But when this continues conclusions must be drawn.

I asked that you not prevaricate. This tautology doesn't answer anything.

I resent your tendency to invoke the Holocaust to bludgeon every argument and prevent debate. I mentioned the act of the King of Denmark because it seemed pertinent to the situation. The bravery and selflessness of his action in the face of injustice is comparable to that of Rachel and Tom, who, as you stated, didn't have to go to Palestine and put themselves in danger.

What are the lessons of history? What is culture? We have to put what we see going around us into context. I know about the King of Denmark. His act is one of the great and powerful legends of my culture. When I hear about people today acting in a like manner I am reminded of what the King did. Someone from another culture may have different cultural references.

The Holocaust and the Atom Bomb are the two greatest historical legacies of the 20th century. If we try to ignore their meaning or twist their lessons to suit some ideology, we have learned nothing. I have no doubt that the Palestinians' take on "Never Again" is quite different from yours, Mishei. You cannot, however, discount their perspective as illegitimate.

I could have also mentioned that Rachel and Tom's actions are comparable to those of the white kids who went to Selma, Alabama to help in the Civil Rights Movement. Do you have a problem with that? Was Martin Luther King an antisemite?

Nelson Mandela said that Marwan Barghouti's case is similar to his own. Desmond Tutu said that Palestine resembles South Africa, except that Apartheid wasn't as bad as what Palestinians are experiencing today. Have they crossed THE ANTISEMITIC LINE? Does this make Mandela and Tutu antisemites?

I've stated already on babble (and I know you read it, as I know you read Geophile's slander of skdadl) that Israel is not the same as Nazi Germany. The crimes of the IDF and the settlers are unique.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 17 November 2002 03:04 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's the latest bulletin:

"Hello everyone,

I have just heard from Don that Thomas will be deported from Israel within the next 48 hours. I am guessing that he will be flown into Toronto
or Montreal within the next day or two then will catch the next flight back to Saskatoon.

I was just checking out the indymedia site and found some photos of the incident in which Thomas was arrested. I have attached two photos. One is
of an Israeli soldier grabbing Thomas to try to get his camera away from him. The second is of an arrest scene where the internationals are being
taken into custody. You can see more photos and read the ISM press release about the incident at http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/89522.php

Other links are as follows

http://indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/42095.html

http://indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/42146.html

http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/42211.html


I have also included the ISM press release below.

Hooray for independent media!

In solidarity,

P


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 17 November 2002 03:24 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTESmith you are laughable. I have already received a number of private posts form babblers asking me to ignore your nonsence so I will .] [/QUOTE]

I doubt as many that have gone around about you. You may have been here longer than Smith but if you want to start a popularity contest you'd lose.If this was Survivor you wouldn't have lasted a week. Is a personal attack all your are capable of you whiny little suck?

quote:
FYI, I know of at least one person on Babble who, for example, has fought dyslexia and has the courage to post here. He/she may make spelling errors. He/she may even be patronizing at times as all of us can be. You should be more sensitive and stick to arguments as opposed to critisizing grammar and spelling.

Patronize much?

The majority of your posts attack people's character not their opinion. i am casting my vote to have you kicked out of the Big Brother House. If this was your job you'd be fired because you contribute so little to the team.

You signed on in June and no your an expert on this forum and taking on the role of moderator? You are nothing but a loser with low self esteem who gets off on putting other people down.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 17 November 2002 04:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I resent your tendency to invoke the Holocaust to bludgeon every argument and prevent debate. I mentioned the act of the King of Denmark because it seemed pertinent to the situation. The bravery and selflessness of his action in the face of injustice is comparable to that of Rachel and Tom, who, as you stated, didn't have to go to Palestine and put themselves in danger.

What are the lessons of history? What is culture? We have to put what we see going around us into context. I know about the King of Denmark. His act is one of the great and powerful legends of my culture. When I hear about people today acting in a like manner I am reminded of what the King did. Someone from another culture may have different cultural references.

The Holocaust and the Atom Bomb are the two greatest historical legacies of the 20th century. If we try to ignore their meaning or twist their lessons to suit some ideology, we have learned nothing. I have no doubt that the Palestinians' take on "Never Again" is quite different from yours, Mishei. You cannot, however, discount their perspective as illegitimate.

I could have also mentioned that Rachel and Tom's actions are comparable to those of the white kids who went to Selma, Alabama to help in the Civil Rights Movement. Do you have a problem with that? Was Martin Luther King an antisemite?

Nelson Mandela said that Marwan Barghouti's case is similar to his own. Desmond Tutu said that Palestine resembles South Africa, except that Apartheid wasn't as bad as what Palestinians are experiencing today. Have they crossed THE ANTISEMITIC LINE? Does this make Mandela and Tutu antisemites?

I've stated already on babble (and I know you read it, as I know you read Geophile's slander of skdadl) that Israel is not the same as Nazi Germany. The crimes of the IDF and the settlers are unique.


1. It is not I who invokes the Holocaust and your resentment means little to me.

2. The story of the King of Denmark is interesting indeed. In fact the story is not true. Never happened. I refer you to the following website to back up this position.

myth of yellow star

[Claim: When the Germans ordered Jews in occupied Denmark to identify themselves by wearing armbands with yellow stars during World War II, King Christian X of Denmark and non-Jewish Danes thwarted the order by donning the armbands themselves.
Status: False.]

3. As for the lessons of history, yes I agree we must use them but they must be used correctly and wisely not by making allusions and comparisions that are wrong and hurtful.

4. The comparisions to the Civil Rights struggle is also out of context. Stick to your position that the situation in the Middle East is unique. That is the truest steatement you made.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 17 November 2002 05:46 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're a wily debater all right....

quote:
...the King of Denmark. His act is one of the great and powerful legends of my culture.

quote:
The fact that neither King Christian X nor the Danes did any such thing has not tarnished the legend’s popularity or its credibility” (Fogelman, 33)
From this article


How about another (another, I ask? How about one?) clarification, if you don't mind. How is comparing the Freedom Riders and the efforts of Tom and Rachel taking the situation out of context? Why are these acts impossible to compare?

And as for your denial that you invoke the Holocaust, give me and everyone else here a break. What other possible meaning could "anyone who compares Israel and Jews in the present situation with all it's inherant problems to nazis or nazism crosses the antisemitic line" have than as a reference to the Holocaust?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 17 November 2002 06:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And as for your denial that you invoke the Holocaust, give me and everyone else here a break. What other possible meaning could "anyone who compares Israel and Jews in the present situation with all it's inherant problems to nazis or nazism crosses the antisemitic line" have than as a reference to the Holocaust?


Arch, firstly, my apologies for busting the myth of the Danish King. In fact the people of Denmark were the ones, through their generosity and courage who demonstrated what true human kindness was all about.

Secondly, the nazi comparision was brought up here on a few occasions and each time , it is true I react against it. That is how I feel. I bring my baggage to this debate just as you bring yours. I do not need your lectures about imposing the Holocaust. There are good reasons, some are personal, that I do so. Im not asking you to like it or agree with it. But those of us who have a clear understanding of what nazis are will see through dark attempts to invoke the spectre of nazism where it clearly does not belong.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 17 November 2002 06:54 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mishei:

I feel you are right to object to this comparison. For one thing, if there is a comparison to be made at all we should be fair and make it clear that the Arabic translation of Mein Kampf has long been a brisk seller throughout the region outside Israel.

Furthermore: (from Chuck Morse):

"Haj Amin al-Husaini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was a major participant in the Holocaust. On July 1, 1937, the British appointed Mufti asked the German Consul-General of Palestine "to what extant the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews." Following this meeting the Mufti was visited in Palestine by Adolf Eichmann who was getting "acquainted with the country and the life and to establish contact with people." Around the time of Eichmann's visit, a prolonged and organized campaign of atrocities against the Jews of Palestine was launched.

Around this time, The Mufti became a paid agent of the Nazi Abwehr and was put in charge of counterintelligence and sabotage. When the British stopped an Abwher shipment of arms to the Mufti in Palestine through Saudi Arabia and Iraq, the Mufti re-located to Baghdad where he directed Arab and Nazi finance, diplomacy, and propaganda. In 1941, the Mufti inspired a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq led by General Rashid Ali. Collaborating with his masters in Berlin, he would declare a Jihad against Britain, which he called "the greatest foe of Islam." The British backed a successful countercoup and the Mufti proceeded on to Berlin where he was appointed by the Nazi's as titular head of a Nazi-pan Arab government in exile..."


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
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posted 17 November 2002 07:41 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is good.

OK. Everyone who isn't a Nazi, raise your hand.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 17 November 2002 08:24 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think invoking Nazism in discussions like this is of limited usefulness, but in this case I was simply responding to an open can of worms.

Again, to be clear, The Jewish people (i.e., the people of Israel) were the victims of Nazism. To the extent that Palestinians can be said to have any connection to Nazism, it is not as victims but as collaborators.

This is simple historical fact. I am not attempting spark an ideological debate, or to say that Palestinians do not have legitimate grivences--and I certainly do not suggest that the Palestinian people are all Nazis, or even sympathetic to Nazism. Some are though. Again, this is not a debatable point since numerous Palestinians are on record in their admiration of Hitler.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cart
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3154

posted 18 November 2002 03:50 AM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*Raises Hand*

Simply because you accuse someone of being an anti-semite does not make it so.


From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 18 November 2002 11:00 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This is simple historical fact. I am not attempting spark an ideological debate, or to say that Palestinians do not have legitimate grivences--and I certainly do not suggest that the Palestinian people are all Nazis, or even sympathetic to Nazism. Some are though.

This is true anywhere. So what is your point?
All of western Europe, save Britain, was occupied by Nazi forces. All had citizens, among all strata, who sympathized with the Nazis. So again, when you argue some Arabs met with Nazis, what is your point?

If your point is simply to demonstrate that some Palestinians are racist toward Jews, so what? It is equally true some Jews are racist towards Palestinians. Where does this acknowledgement get us?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
minigun
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3345

posted 18 November 2002 02:38 PM      Profile for minigun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WingNut:

My point is that it is illegitimate to compare the tactics of the IDF to those of the Nazis. It is also my point that many Arab leaders were willing collaborators with the Nazis, not merely Nazi puppets performing under duress.

In any case, invoking Nazism in connection with this whole issue creates far more heat than light, IMHO, so I'll drop out of this converation now.


From: Boxford MA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 18 November 2002 03:04 PM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, see cause the IDF compares their tactics to those of the Nazis themselves. So therefore it is illegitimate for others to do so.
From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 November 2002 04:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
No, see cause the IDF compares their tactics to those of the Nazis themselves. So therefore it is illegitimate for others to do so.
Yes it was inappropriate for that IDF Officer do have done so and he was reprimanded severely for it.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 November 2002 05:39 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But if the comparison is valid, if the techniques used are similar, it doesn't matter whether he was reprimanded or not.

It's either a spade or it's not; it doesn't matter what you call it.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 November 2002 06:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes it was inappropriate for that IDF Officer do have done so and he was reprimanded severely for it.

You won't mind if I ask for an article or something.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 19 November 2002 12:29 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes it was inappropriate for that IDF Officer do have done so and he was reprimanded severely for it.

------------------
You won't mind if I ask for an article or something.


The officer was probably reprimanded for being heard by reporters.

I've been searching for internet evidence of a reprimand, but besides the Robert Fisk article that mentions the Maariv article in question, have so far found little other than many, many, many sites and articles that make the unmentionable comparison. I can see why Mishei's so touchy. He must have to deal with this sort of thing every day.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Pagan
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posted 19 November 2002 04:37 AM      Profile for Ronald Pagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Has anyone else read The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein?
From: Guantanamo Bay | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 19 November 2002 08:39 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But if the comparison is valid, if the techniques used are similar, it doesn't matter whether he was reprimanded or not.
The comparision was NOT valid; the techniques used were NOT similar whatsoever;the reprimand was given. I will do my best to find the source .

Finklestein's book is a pathetic screed that border's on calumny and is used by Holocaust deniers as a bible because it is written by a Jew. It has been thoroughly debunked by such eminent historians such as Professor Michael Marrus, Christopher Browning, and Raul Hilberg.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 19 November 2002 06:40 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Latest, and likely the last, update:

"I now have confirmation from Thomas' parents that he is en route from Tel Aviv to Saskatoon. He will be aboard Air Canada Flight 1127 which arrives in Saskatoon @ 11:40 pm Tuesday November 19 (tonight)."


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
SamL
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posted 03 December 2002 09:31 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
No. Im actually rather careful in throwing around the antisemitic label.


Careful? I'd hate to see you be liberal with it, that's for sure.


From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 03 December 2002 11:25 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The comparision was NOT valid; the techniques used were NOT similar whatsoever;the reprimand was given. I will do my best to find the source .

And (are we surprised?) we're still waiting...


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 04 December 2002 12:23 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thomas and Rachel gave a talk tonight in Saskatoon.

Some here might be interested to note that a common epithet thrown their way (they went as part of the International Solidarity Movement to help Palestinians with the olive harvest...but primarily to act as human shields and witnesses) by the settlers was "Nazi."


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2002 12:25 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Arch...
any chance of an article on their talk any time soon?

From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2002 12:26 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Nazi"? Why? But...why?

Yeah, I'd appreciate an article...or a transcript...whatever...

Or do you think the stuff you already posted covers it?

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Daoine
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posted 04 December 2002 12:41 AM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why? Ingrown point-of-view.
From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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Babbler # 1562

posted 04 December 2002 12:43 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I personally prefer eye-witness testimony, I don't think that we can ever have enough.

10 different people, 10 different stories but you can get a good picture from the parallels.


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2002 12:59 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah.

Hey, did you ever read that Coast with the Peter Trainor article in it? That one was really good. I wish I could find it online. In the meantime, there's this, which covers some of the same territory.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2002 01:49 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pete, the guy from makingthelinksradio (they're "in cahoots" with rabble.ca) is going to put some of the presentation on the internet. He recorded everything. Rachel gave a slide show, which Pete is going to place on the "making the links" website with voice-over commentary, taken from tonight's presentation, from Rachel and Thomas.

I'll keep everyone posted.

http://www.makingthelinksradio.ca

International Solidarity Movement

Some people asked what they could do to help. We were told to talk to others about what isn't told on mainstream media (like what we do here, right?), boycotting Israeli goods (although given that Israel is a recipient of massive aid from the US and hasn't many exports, this is slightly problematic) and supporting Palestinian craftspeople.

Rachel is going to provide info on how to do the latter on the internet. I should have a link very soon.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2002 01:51 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks Arch...
More upsetting news

From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 04 December 2002 02:02 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, the more I read about this situation, the sicker I feel.

It gets really, really hard to think in terms of purposes and reasons and culprits. It just starts to look like a mess, like rubble piled up all over a road, like that map we've been looking at with Palestinian villages and military outposts marked on it in red, speckles of blood on a pool of vomit.

It's pathetic. It's pathetic and stupid and sad. All these things that should be easy, should be safe, and they're not, and when you read the theories it makes sense, but when you read about what that actually means, what happens to people on the ground, it's stupid and pointless and very, very wrong.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 04 December 2002 10:50 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a link, provided by Rachel, to a group that sells Palestinian merchandise and which provides other support to Palestinians.

Palestine Children's Welfare Fund

Another thing Rachel mentioned during her presentation is one of the reactions she and the other internationals received from some Israelis. The Israelis seemed perplexed that anyone would want to help Palestinians, as if they were not fully human and hence not worth the effort.

Another anecdote: Rachel and Tom rode around in ambulances with paramedics, to protect them from Israeli fire. During one incident, when a tank threatened to shoot directly at them, they had to resist their natural inclination to duck below the windows, but instead sit as high as possible so the IDF could see that they were internationals and not just Palestinians (open season on them you see....).

They told us how one day an IDF checkpoint called the paramedics to have them pick up a Palestinian they had beaten. When the ambulance arrived, one of the paramedics was assassinated by a sniper. The IDF deliberately set the crew up to shoot one of their members.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2002 11:00 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They mentioned that in their journals...turning the lights on and sitting up so they could be seen.

As for the killing of the paramedics, that's appalling. I know most of these soldiers are teenagers - who controls them? Or do they just fill them with hate, shove them into a tank and send them out to work?

It's really sad that the Israelis talk that way about the Palestinians - was it all of them, or some Israelis in particular? What I hear repeatedly is that the settlers are the most brutal, which I suppose would make sense, living in an area where they feel so threatened. (Because they shouldn't be there, but that's another story, I suppose.)

What the Coast article mentioned was how hate-filled the Israeli soldiers seemed - just full of contempt; they'd delay people for hours in the blazing sun, make them back up a few hundred feet, go forward a few hundred feet, no purpose to it, really, just the delay. And I do wonder how you get a person to be so full of hate; seeing one's friends and relatives murdered could do that, but I really doubt that has happened to every teenage soldier they've got.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2002 11:37 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's a power thing. The sad part it is, it doesn't even matter who or what kind of force it is. Some people, when they get that weapon in their hand, the power goes right to their head. I can imagine that the conscript situation just makes it worse. I've even seen it happen with peacekeepers, though ceratinly not on a regular basis or to the same degree.
From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged

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