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Author Topic: I'm no longer an NDP member!
clockwork
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Babbler # 690

posted 30 September 2002 05:38 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've decided to cancel my NDP membership and my donations (amounting to all of 20 bucks a month).

I was hornswaggled back when, during the "riots" in Quebec, but now I'm much better now.

I just thought I should mention this. NDP is a spent force. The regional wings of the party can't get along, or even respect each other.

I hope the NDP dies.

Noah.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 30 September 2002 05:55 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Noah?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 690

posted 30 September 2002 06:37 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, the little fucker made me realize socialism is dead, social democratic movements does not have the power to unite across a geographic spectrum, and I don't want to be apart of something that considers a person like me the enemy.

Stalin, Lenin, etc I gather, are really examples of the far left. Hussien is a bloody leftwinger for god sakes. The far left ain't interested in democracy, their interested in beating me with a four foot stick.

Unfortunately, I'm left with supporting the Liberals. But that is cool. They have a leftist element to them.


Evanchuk


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 30 September 2002 06:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey clocko, are you doing some newfangled astral projection thing or something?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 690

posted 30 September 2002 06:57 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Naw. Don't get me wrong, I'm left of center, but I just realized I ain't that far left.

I'm sick off trying to defend Rae, or thinking that maybe Chretien, Mulroney, Kinsella, Clinton, etc are not that bad. I'm sick of trying to defend their partial records. I thought Mulroney was dead-on in relation to South Africa, trying to do good in relation to the constitution, but a bit off when it comes to the FTA. I think Crretien isn't all that bad. Martin, surely, would make a good successor. He's read Stiglitz, which is more I can say for the little peices of shit that get elected out West, or think we should have another universe to test out global warming theories.

Saskabush farts that consider me a gas don't strike my palette as appetizing.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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Babbler # 1064

posted 30 September 2002 07:11 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But clockwork, who says you have to defend Bob Rae just because you're an NDP member? Thought his name was mud in those circles nowadays. And what do Stalin, Lenin, Saddam Hussein (?!) have to do with it?

You're not engaged in some kind of leg-pull here, are you?


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 30 September 2002 07:23 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the fight this morning.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 30 September 2002 07:28 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But that is the point. I agreed with Rae. His name is mud in certain circles and I think he did that he did the best job given is situation.

I'm tired of being the outsider. I'm tired of fighting the current to the river I choose swim.

As for the old leftist hacks: I haven't yet seen a leftist who did what he was supposed to do. I mean, god damn, Canada, Germany, etc, are probably some of the most "leftist" countries on the face of the earth right now.


And, yeah, I did wake up on the wrong side of the bed. It was the left side. I usually like sleeping on my back.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 30 September 2002 07:30 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And so what portends for the future from there on your back?
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 30 September 2002 08:29 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The stars!
From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 30 September 2002 08:32 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're going to be an astronaut??
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rbil
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posted 30 September 2002 09:38 PM      Profile for rbil     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Noah said:

quote:
Naw. Don't get me wrong, I'm left of center, but I just realized I ain't that far left.

Finally you figured this out! I've been trying to tell you that for a long time. Believe me, the Liberals will be happy to have you.

Cheers,
Rene


From: IRC: irc.bcwireless.net JOIN: #linuxtalk | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cate
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posted 01 October 2002 12:59 PM      Profile for Cate     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm confused. You're quitting the NDP and joining the Liberals because of Noah Evanchuk? Or are you quitting the party and you are Noah Evanchuk? I just don't understand the N.E. power to force people to the right.
From: out in the west | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 01 October 2002 01:10 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But that is the point. I agreed with Rae. His name is mud in certain circles and I think he did that he did the best job given is situation.

Well, to put it as mildly as possible, I can't share your enthusiasm (though I'll say this much for Rae: he wasn't a class traitor).

But that still leaves Lenin, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, et al. I'm still confused about them. OK I'm not, but I am confused as to why you brought them in here.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 01 October 2002 01:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rene, Noah didn't say that; clockwork did.

Near as I can figger (I missed their confrontation), clockwork is annoyed with Noah because Noah is sometimes just a touch short with everyone who doesn't agree with him. Noah hasn't found this thread yet.

I'm still not convinced that clock isn't leg-pulling, but I'm less optimistic than I was.

clock: the steamship line! the flags of convenience! Do you feel better today?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 01 October 2002 01:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's my best guess. Clock does not like to be stuck in an orthodoxy where loyalty comes before ideas. So he is annoyed because he didn't think Rae was all that bad, he didn't think Clinton was all that bad, etc.

The thing is, lots of NDPers are idealists, and then they get all upset when they get into power, the real world comes knocking on the door, and the leaders have no choice but to compromise to get the best they can get in the circumstances. Because it's not perfect, they are cheesed off. There's always room for improvement. There's always criticism to be made. But some NDPers demonize those who have been in power because they didn't create the utopia they knew was waiting for them just around the corner.

What I remember Rae's major supporters turning on him about were Rae days among other things. At least, that's what got all the publicity at the time. Geez, this guy bent over backwards to try to save jobs, and the unions went nuts. It makes me wonder whether the unions didn't get what they deserved when they turned on Rae and Harris got into power and brought in all that strike-busting legislation.

Do you think Rae would have passed laws like that? Not in a million years. But because he didn't create utopia in 4 years, or wasn't able to implement everything everyone wanted or give everybody everything all the time, the people who should have kept supporting him while also pressuring him to move a little further left all turned on him and gave the Tories an easy victory.

And now we have strike-busting legislation, a 5th of the welfare rate cut and never increased for cost of living in 7 years, and a bunch of other stuff that Bob Rae would never in his wildest dreams have come up with.

I'm just guessing, but based on Clock's past postings on this topic, I'm thinking that's where this rant is coming from. Of course, he can correct me if I've misinterpreted.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 01 October 2002 01:32 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What I remember Rae's major supporters turning on him about were Rae days among other things.

I thought they were more upset about his having unilaterally torn up perfectly good collective agreements with months or years left to run. Quite right, too, in my view. "Rae days" were only the outward and visible sign of that inward and spiritual disgrace.

Sure, the government was "forced" to by its dire fiscal situation... which was partly of its own making (though partly also down to the recesssion which arrived, by coincidence, across North America as they took power). They simply couldn't count. Or, as rasmus might put it, they arrived in power with nowhere near the requisite number of qualified people to slot into senior positions in the bureaucracy.

Not altogether their fault, that. They never expected to win even a minority government. But for a labour-affiliated party to throw out the central principle of organized labour... well, that labour leaders would be utterly unable to forgive that is hardly surprising.

quote:
And now we have strike-busting legislation, a 5th of the welfare rate cut and never increased for cost of living in 7 years, and a bunch of other stuff that Bob Rae would never in his wildest dreams have come up with.

I'm not at all certain about that. If you've thrown out collective bargaining, the other stuff would seem to come easy. Besides, Rae these days is sounding almost like a neo-con.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 01 October 2002 01:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's true, I'll give you that.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 October 2002 01:45 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I still think that what set clock off was a run-in with Noah. And there have been times, y'know, when the sneering from the West has made me leave the NDP threads feeling a little shaken too -- and I'm from Calgary!
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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Babbler # 1130

posted 01 October 2002 01:47 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
$20.00 per month!! Geez man, you were making me look like a piker.

Anyway my young friend, rejoice in the courage of your convictions and soldier on. (personally I think you're going through a stage, but whatever..) The NDP is diminished by your absence, and capital L Liberalism just became a slightly better place. There's always time to change your mind. I don't think though that you'll be convinced here today.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 01 October 2002 02:01 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm closing this thread, because it seems to be started with the intent of taking pot shots at Noah Evanchuk.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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