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Author Topic: Jewish group angry over bookstore's button policy
Klaus
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posted 30 September 2002 12:22 PM      Profile for Klaus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw this disturbing story in the National Post today. I really cannot see why the Bookstore would not carry a button that asks for an end to suicide bombing. Seems a rather noble goal.

Jewish group angry over bookstore's button policy


From: Ottawa | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 30 September 2002 12:31 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're too easily disturbed by blatantly feigned outrage. Propaganda is not a noble goal.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 30 September 2002 12:33 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2002 12:55 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is the bookstore privately owned? Yes.

Therefore the owners of the bookstore can do whatever the hell they want on their property. After all, it's legal for business owners to boot panhandlers off their property (much as I deplore THAT), so it's also perfectly legal to sell whatever you want as long as it's not something that breaks some law.

And as far as *I* know, selling buttons ain't illegal.

So yeah, I'd say the whole "equal time" BS is just that. The CJC could plant a buncha people all around giving out buttons if they really cared, rather than beating up on some store that probably doesn't get a lot of traffic anyway.

Talk about your mountains and molehills.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 September 2002 12:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why are you all so easily lulled into aacquiesence here. The Bookstore, by refusing to accept these buttons are giving a pretty dark message. It would have been absolutely the right thing to do the ethical and moral thing to do to have accepted the buttons. After all what is it asking? To stop suicide bombings. Surely we all believe in this message? Don't we?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 September 2002 01:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
blatantly feigned outrage

Well put.

This is a familiar bullying tactic, trying to embarrass someone whose position you know is different from yours by forcing them to refuse publicly to say words you are putting into their mouths.

It is not unlike the demands some regularly make on babble that we all line up and prove that we are decent human beings by reciting someone else's formulation of an issue. That also is a bullying tactic; it is akin to demanding that citizens take loyalty oaths or pledges of allegiance, and is deeply anti-democratic.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 30 September 2002 01:10 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it's a phony issue to embarass the bookstore.

Let's demand that Ariel Sharon wear a button that says: "Palestinians are humans too."

What? He won't do it? I guess he doesn't think they are human!

Or we could ask Ed Morgan, the spokesperson for the Jewish group, to wear a button that says:
"No apartheid in the Middle East!" Since I know he opposes apartheid, he would have no reason to refuse.

Or would he?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 September 2002 01:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eek! I committed a disagreement of number!
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
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posted 30 September 2002 01:17 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course we all believe in an end to suicide bombings. That's just it. EVERYONE believes it. The Toronto Women's Bookstore is an ALTERNATIVE bookstore for people with NON-CONFORMIST views. They carry the Free Palestine buttons because in our society which is fed Americanized anti-Middle-East media, being pro-Palestine is a NON-CONFORMIST view. If they had to carry buttons from every social struggle out there that everyone believes in, they'd be just like any other store.

And in addition, there are many women's groups devoted to fighting the occupation (Women Against the Occupation, Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation, etc.) Maybe if it was a women's group against suicide bombings who had approached the bookstore, and not the CJC, they may have had more luck.


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 30 September 2002 01:19 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that's the most egregious grammatical violation these days, and the one least noticed.

It's a symptom of our permissive society in which everyone is allowed to do as "they" like.

Carry on.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 September 2002 01:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, it's a phony issue to embarass the bookstore.
Let's demand that Ariel Sharon wear a button that says: "Palestinians are humans too."

What? He won't do it? I guess he doesn't think they are human!

Or we could ask Ed Morgan, the spokesperson for the Jewish group, to wear a button that says:
"No apartheid in the Middle East!" Since I know he opposes apartheid, he would have no reason to refuse.

Or would he?


Why should Morgan be asked to wear a button claiming something that is untrue?

Perhaps we should focus on what the cjc is asking and that is to bring an end to murder. It is simply incomprehensible that anyone would have a problem with this, alternative bookstore or otherwise. I just find their position and yours hypocritical.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 30 September 2002 01:36 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine, an end to murder. Does this mean you'll wear a button reading "IDF - stop murdering children now" or "assassinations are a war crime"?
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 September 2002 02:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fine, an end to murder. Does this mean you'll wear a button reading "IDF - stop murdering children now"
I would not wear buttons with statements that are untrue. The IDF do not "murder" Palestinian children and you know it.

Tragically there are civilian victims when Israel retaliates. The same can be said for the United States in Afganistan or the UN in some of their actions. It is hearbreaking when children get caught up in war. It just is not the same as suicide bombers targeting Israelis for murder.

This has been argued again and again here. With a statement asking for an end to suicide bombings, there can be no question as to it's veracity.

If you sent me a button asking for an end to the "violence" in Israel and the PA I would wear it with honour.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 September 2002 02:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The IDF do not "murder" Palestinian children and you know it.

That's right. Much as innocent Palestinians used as human shields by the brave IDF are "civilian escorts" so murdered children are "unfortunate circumstances." And how many unfortunate circumstances have we had in the past two years? Five hundred? And how many babies were carrying guns?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 30 September 2002 02:49 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is good. Nobody on babble supports Palestinian suicide bombers, yet at least one supports IDF methods that kill Palestinian civilians.

Bravo lakesh.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 September 2002 02:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone know where we can get buttons that just say, Send in the UN?

Those could be very versatile.

What do people think of wearing buttons anyway?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Klaus
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posted 30 September 2002 02:55 PM      Profile for Klaus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In light of the ongoing discussion here I thought this op-ed piece from the Boston Globe might aid in the debate.
Where to draw the line

From: Ottawa | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 30 September 2002 03:05 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you sent me a button asking for an end to the "violence" in Israel and the PA I would wear it with honour.

Of course, that is a neutral button, whereas one
condemning "homicide bombings" refers to the misdeeds of one side only.

A fairer analogy would be to ask Sharon to wear a button that says: "No to tanks and phantom jets".


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 September 2002 03:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dershowitz

quote:
This is good. Nobody on babble supports Palestinian suicide bombers, yet at least one supports IDF methods that kill Palestinian civilians.
I challenge you to prove my support of murdering innocent people. Arch, you are a pip...You know full well what I posted and it had nothing to do with your wilful mischaracterization of my position.

I urge you to read Alan Dershowitz's article here and tell me if any of it sounds familiar.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 30 September 2002 03:09 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sympathy for the Palestinian struggle - even when it takes the form of violence targeting civilians - stems largely from the knee-jerk instinct to romanticize the ''wretched of the earth,'' the ''oppressed'' of the Third World.

Don'tcha sometimes wish that quotation marks really could make inconvenient issues just disappear? People too?


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 30 September 2002 03:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Klaus -

It is an interesting piece, and indeed one does encounter a lot of anti-Jewish hate on the net masquerading as anti-Zionism. One of the weirdest is the traditional "anti-semitic" caricatures of Jews found in certain right-wing Arab media - strange because obviously, identical ones could be drawn of Arabs, or any of us of a Mediterranean background for that matter... However I disagree with several points the writer raised.

For example, the term "Holocaust Industry" is the title of a book by Norman Finkelstein. He is the son of Holocaust survivors and certainly not a Holocaust denier (also known as revisionists - the scum around David Irving, Faurisson and co. - a plague for historical research on the Internet). I have a lot of serious misgivings about Finkelstein's book and research, but it is baiting to insinuate that he is a Holocaust denier or self-hating Jew.

Moreover, there are some insinuations about anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism that as a proud anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, I find nothing but defence of the murderous status quo. Wasn't it Bebel who said that anti-semitism was the "socialism of fools"?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 30 September 2002 03:31 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is an interesting piece, and indeed one does encounter a lot of anti-Jewish hate on the net masquerading as anti-Zionism.

Lagatta is right about the sometime use of anti-Zionism as a screen for anti-Semitism. It does happen. But the linked article is disappointing, because it does not help us to discover "where to draw the line."

And that line has to be drawn, because otherwise Israel cannot be criticised no matter what it does.

Myself, I like to check on the writers' views on other Middle Eastern countries. If Israel is the only one criticized for being undemocratic, for example, something is wrong.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 30 September 2002 03:41 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Tragically there are civilian victims when Israel retaliates. The same can be said for the United States in Afganistan or the UN in some of
their actions. It is hearbreaking when children get caught up in war.
It just is not the same as suicide bombers targeting Israelis for murder.

Despite the crocodile tears you aren't saying that the IDF shouldn't bomb residential areas where they cannot help but kill children. Never mind bulldozing families in their own homes or using neighbours as human shields.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 30 September 2002 03:44 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frankly, this writer explicitly links sympathy with Palestinians to advocating "targetting civilians" and "romanticizing" - like that's possible! - the plight of the third world. I'm not hopeful that she's ever going to find the line herself.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 30 September 2002 03:45 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I used to wear a button that read "This is my left nipple" on my left upper chestal area. That's as neutral as it gets.

I do like the "Send in the UN" button idea.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ed Weatherbee
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posted 30 September 2002 04:59 PM      Profile for Ed Weatherbee        Edit/Delete Post
How about boycotting all buttons except those needed to keep your pants up and your shirt together. I always found buttons of all types pretty well useless.
From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 30 September 2002 06:02 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I rarely wear buttons of any kind, but I do treasure my tiny enamelled red triangle given by a friend - it is taken from the symbol political prisoners in Nazi lagers had to wear, and a symbol of the anti-fascist movement.

(www.raslfront.org)


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 30 September 2002 06:06 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wanna button that says "Down with buttons!"
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2002 06:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I gotta button with Gordo's mug on it reading "BC is Fucked". I like that.

quote:
Why are you all so easily lulled into aacquiesence here. The Bookstore, by refusing to accept these buttons are giving a pretty dark message. It would have been absolutely the right thing to do the ethical and moral thing to do to have accepted the buttons. After all what is it asking? To stop suicide bombings. Surely we all believe in this message? Don't we?

Mishei, lose the arrogant patronizing attitude.

You know damn well you're trying to pull a BS trick that's as old as civilization itself, which is insincere sincerity in order to try and embarass someone else into supporting your way of setting things up.

Nothing gets my goat like insincere sincerity, and if you said that sort of bilge to my face I'd ostentatiously turn my hearing aids off in front of you because that's how much insincere sincerity cheeses me off.

Anybody you ask on babble would presumably say they don't want any suicide bombing. What they do NOT agree with is your unstated assumption that the solution is by thumping Palestinian-Arabs good and hard until they quit.

Since you're a left-winger (presumably), then you understand this chain of reasoning about welfare recipients:

You can kick people in the ass till your foot gets sore and you won't get them to do anything cuz nobody likes it when their ass gets kicked.

But if you extend a helping hand 90%+ of the people out there will be more than happy to return the favor.

Thus, to get people off welfare requires more carrot, less stick.

So if we agree that kicking a group of people that have gotten kicked all their lives won't accomplish anything when it comes to welfare recipients, why do you blindly refuse to see that Israel is employing the same tactics on Palestinian-Arabs with about as much success?

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Pagan
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posted 30 September 2002 09:56 PM      Profile for Ronald Pagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know if this has been brought up earlier in the thread (as I didn't have time to read everyone's posts) but to me there is another unsettling shadowier issue here over this button crisis.

To get at the issue I'll ask this question:
How many inches of page space in the National Post would have been devoted to a story about a refusal to sell Palestinian buttons as opposed to Israeli?

The jewish dominance of western media outlets is spectacular and repugnant. When a smear campaign is launched by a Jewish organization, it for some reason no longer turns into a smear campaign but a piece of legitimate news. It's disgusting that they use they're considerable media clout to cloud any type of dissent over Israeli policies. And to even go so far as to label other individuals or groups anti-semetic is disgraceful and in my opinion highly discriminatory. Cavalier exploits of the term "anti-semite" deserve to be judicated just as any other piece of hate literature/speech.

Thoughts?


From: Guantanamo Bay | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 30 September 2002 10:37 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thoughts?

Not to worry ... no one is going to label you anti-semite.

From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2002 10:44 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It doesn't take a conspiracy theory about Jewish ownership of the media. It just takes a built-in bias in North America towards Israel due to common Judeo-Christian roots (perfectly understandable, too, since Christianity at one time was a sect of Judaism) and against Arabs due to the predominant Islamic offshoot.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 September 2002 10:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The jewish dominance of western media outlets is spectacular and repugnant. When a smear campaign is launched by a Jewish organization, it for some reason no longer turns into a smear campaign but a piece of legitimate news. It's disgusting that they use they're considerable media clout to cloud any type of dissent over Israeli policies. And to even go so far as to label other individuals or groups anti-semetic is disgraceful and in my opinion highly discriminatory. Cavalier exploits of the term "anti-semite" deserve to be judicated just as any other piece of hate literature/speech.

Thoughts?


Yes just one. Which white supremacist group is it that you belong to?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 September 2002 10:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, lose the arrogant patronizing attitude.

You know damn well you're trying to pull a BS trick that's as old as civilization itself, which is insincere sincerity in order to try and embarass someone else into supporting your way of setting things up.

Nothing gets my goat like insincere sincerity, and if you said that sort of bilge to my face I'd ostentatiously turn my hearing aids off in front of you because that's how much insincere sincerity cheeses me off.

Anybody you ask on babble would presumably say they don't want any suicide bombing. What they do NOT agree with is your unstated assumption that the solution is by thumping Palestinian-Arabs good and hard until they quit.


1. Doc if anyone is patronizing here it is you not I. My opinion stands. Im sorry if you dont like the tone but its pretty hard to see why the store refused to carry these buttons.

2. Im not trying to embarass anyone. If they are embarassed or if you are that's your problem. Im just trying to respond to reality.

3. And to be clear I have never ever said either directly or by insinuation that Palestinians should be "thumped good and hard". This is an outright lie of the worst kind. It is putting words in my mouth that I would never say. It is shameful that you would do such a terrible thing.

Is it any wonder I get pissed off when people accuse me of sanctioning wilful violence against innocent people??


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2002 11:06 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1. Doc if anyone is patronizing here it is you not I. My opinion stands. Im sorry if you dont like the tone but its pretty hard to see why the store refused to carry these buttons.

Oh, sheesh, Mishei. Come off it.

What part of "it's private property and the owners can flog whatever the hell they want" do you not understand?

Oh, wait. I forgot.

Property rights are only fine and dandy with the CJC as long as they flog anything but buttons saying that the Palestinian occupation should be terminated.

But as soon as they flog them buttons, the store can't refuse unless they want to be trashed by the CJC in the media.

That'd be like me forming, shit, I dunno... let's pick People for the Ethical Treatment of Humans, since I actually AM the founding (and only) member at the moment.

So I make PETH buttons, and instead of being reasonable when a store tells me to take my buttons and hoof it, I go hollaring down to the media about how they won't let me flog my damn buttons.

People would be perfectly justified in telling to quit whining and go find somewhere else to flog my PETH buttons.

quote:
After all what is it asking? To stop suicide bombings. Surely we all believe in this message? Don't we?

quote:
2. Im not trying to embarass anyone. If they are embarassed or if you are that's your problem. Im just trying to respond to reality.

The quote right above the one I'm responding to is the part I'm discussing. If you don't understand insincere sincerity, you might want to re-read the first of the two.

What you are trying to do is to make me look like the bad guy even though the situation is clearly that you are trying to browbeat me into falling into line with your pronouncement.

And finally...

Considering the way you qualify your statements about IDF soldiers violating the Geneva Convention and possibly Israeli law, I feel somewhat justified in saying that you at the very least condone actions by IDF soldiers if they can claim "national security" and don't actually kill anyone.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 September 2002 11:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Considering the way you qualify your statements about IDF soldiers violating the Geneva Convention and possibly Israeli law, I feel somewhat justified in saying that you at the very least condone actions by IDF soldiers if they can claim "national security" and don't actually kill anyone.
Even if that were true it is a far cry from suggesting on this Board that I sanction killing innocent people. Thanks for the non-apology.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 30 September 2002 11:13 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe Doc Conway's "Purity of Posting" doctrine absolves him of any guilt in this matter.
From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2002 11:33 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't tell if that's supposed to be a wisecrack or not, but I'm not immune to the rules of this board, and if I've stepped over the line I certainly will hear about it just like any of you folks.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 September 2002 11:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arch, hee hee.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 October 2002 12:01 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys are a hoot. Reminds me of when i was in public school and the way the child who was different got treated. People laughing behind his back, making fun of him. As though he wasn't in on the secret.

Sad very sad


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 01 October 2002 12:08 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Keep condescending, Lakesh...
From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 October 2002 12:12 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh come on, Mishei, I was laughing about his pun. And yes, it was at your expense. But it's not like I laughed behind your back - I knew you could see it.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Pagan
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posted 01 October 2002 12:33 AM      Profile for Ronald Pagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes just one. Which white supremacist group is it that you belong to?

Mishei - I just wanted to clear up that this was a joke right? Sometimes sarcasm doesn't transcend via the typed word. But I mean you were obviously pointing out that by calling me a white-supremacist because I held a opposing view to a popular jewish trend correct?

If it turns out that this wasn't the case you just went a proved what I was trying to argue. Any type of dissenting opinion of popular jewish proganda campaigns instantly labels you as a racist.

Please clarify.


From: Guantanamo Bay | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 01 October 2002 01:12 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes just one. Which white supremacist group is it that you belong to?

Statements like this sound a lot like "If your not on my side, your against me".

I think both sides of the conflict suck. Too many dead people to pick a side. I just want it to stop. I guess I am having a hard time seeing past the pile of bodies to the "facts". Now what nasty group doI belong too?

I outgrew buttons a 12, I think they all suck.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ronald Pagan
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Babbler # 3106

posted 01 October 2002 01:20 AM      Profile for Ronald Pagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your leanings are not with the Israelis so I'd be inclined to call you a nazi. Everyone knows that if you condescend Israel or Jewish Propaganda/Politcizing then you're either Hitler or his brother.

sigh

I have a button that says "fuck homophobia" old people on buses look at me sternly.


From: Guantanamo Bay | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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Babbler # 2356

posted 01 October 2002 01:57 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a badge that says "The Moral Majority is Neither." The button's over 20 years old now....
From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 October 2002 08:28 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The jewish dominance of western media outlets is spectacular and repugnant. When a smear campaign is launched by a Jewish organization, it for some reason no longer turns into a smear campaign but a piece of legitimate news. It's disgusting that they use they're considerable media clout to cloud any type of dissent over Israeli policies. And to even go so far as to label other individuals or groups anti-semetic is disgraceful and in my opinion highly discriminatory. Cavalier exploits of the term "anti-semite" deserve to be judicated just as any other piece of hate literature/speech.
No it was no joke. Your first sentence alone is classic anti-semitism. "Jewish dominance" of the media. Izzy Asper is who you may be referring to and he is a single Jew out of over 350,000 Jews in Canada. To ascribe to an entire group such negative characteristics because of the action of one individual is in this case a form of anti-semitism. Asper, it seems, is also a strong Liberal but his paper has a decidedly Conservative bent. Is his being Jewish to blame for that as well?? In the USA I would challenge you to demonstrate who you are even referring to but more importantly in that case how their Jewishness "dominates" the media.

Secondly, what smear campaign by what Jewish organization. At worst what cjc did was a PR exercise that demonstarted the hypocracy of a group who would not support a slogan that asked to stop murdering Israelis. This is news my friend and the fact you called it a smear campaign adds to my feeling that you have crossed the line. Secondly, for the cjc to ask for an end to suicide bombings is not "clouding dissent over Israeli policies". Again your attempt to paint this respected Jewish group as malevolent raises my eye-brows.

And where is it in the article that anyone labelled Toronto bookstore people as antisemitic?

So you see, your brazen accusation of Jewish media control is a hallmark of those who would demonize Jews. It is difficult for me to see beyond this...but perhaps, just perhaps you were unaware of the road you chose. I pray this was the case.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 01 October 2002 10:14 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Mishei.

Ronald Pagan, I've got a real problem with the way you generalize from the term "Jewish," and like Mishei, I'm hoping that this is just an effect of sloppy or thoughtless composition. I'm expecting that you're going to come along and clarify some necessary distinctions between political criticism of the Israeli government and overgeneralizations and slurs against an entire ethnic group.

Because otherwise, Mishei is right: that paragraph he quotes above is written in the classic terms of anti-Semitism.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 01 October 2002 10:31 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I almost wrote a post just about identical to yours about the posting about "jewish control of the media"... I'm wondering if this posting doesn't contravene babble guidelines. Reminds me too much of some of the folks who sidle up to us at PAJU's silent vigils in Montreal and whisper - "you know, the REAL problem is those Jews...". Often as not, they wind up whispering this nonsense to a Jewish person.

However, leaving that stuff where it belongs, I do wonder why there is such unanimity and hesitation to criticise Israeli policy among a majority of the Jewish community in North America. See: www.joelkovel.org/zionism.html

One finds a far broader range of opinion for example in France and Argentia, just to take two countries I am familiar with where there is also a large Jewish population. The refusal to criticise Israel is reflected in the CJC's stands and actions on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Of course the CJC is a broad coalition of groups involved in many other things than knee-jerk support for Israel, that provide great benefit to the community (such as supporting social and immigration historians!...) But the group has taken a very hard line on this particular issue, and hammers away at a specific agenda. To my mind, here again making a mountain out of a molehill.

Actually, conspiracy theories aside, there has been a large Jewish presence in the press throughout modern history. Nothing to do with a conspiracy - literacy is a key tenet of Jewish values and Jews managed to find work as journalists when most other liberal professions were barred to them. Famous Jews as different as Disraeli and Trotsky made their mark as journalists. But what doesn't necessarily follow is a specific line of thought. Le Monde and Pagina/12 (an excellent leftist daily in Buenos Aires) are as "Jewish" as the New York Times, but they don't have the same stand on the Middle East or many other things. Neither do Izzy Asper and Judy Rebick...

But I continue to maintain that how Sharon is treating the Palestinians is every bit as unacceptable as suicide bombings, and alas will probably contribute to more. They need each other. Fortunately there are some groups, largely of women, that are emerging with less macho tactics.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 October 2002 10:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But I continue to maintain that how Sharon is treating the Palestinians is every bit as unacceptable as suicide bombings, and alas will probably contribute to more. They need each other. Fortunately there are some groups, largely of women, that are emerging with less macho tactics.


Lagatta, I am no fan of Sharon's when it comes to policy but I think it is wrong to create some kind of moral eqivalancy between suicide bombers and Sharon's policy towards Palestinians. Even my dear friends with Shalom Achshav in Jerusalem (who shall we say do not exactly favour the Likud ) are careful not to create such a false illusion. Sharon retaliates. At times the retaliation is more than it must be but to suggest that somehow Israel's flawed attempt at self-defence is eqivalent to those who would target innocent Israeli families in pizzerias and bus shelters for murder is simply wrongheaded.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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Babbler # 1752

posted 01 October 2002 11:51 AM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The IDF do not "murder" Palestinian children and you know it.

unfortunately, this is not always true.

as for retaliation, both sides "retaliate." Likud gives the terrorists good lessons in this regard. Hamas, etc. are using the rhetoric of retaliation that they've learned from the Israeli gov't, who learned it from the American gov't. if they didn't "retaliate," of course, the violence would end. and we wouldn't want that, would we?

it's never clear to me what sort of consistency there is in bemoaning "collateral damage" while supporting the methods that kill innocent civilians and spark more "retaliation." i'm not sure how much difference there is between a terrorist and an Israeli soldier who shoots a mentally retarded kid with a stone, or declares that the IDF should shoot pregnant Palestinian women if they have terrorists "behind" them, whatever this means.

as for the Women's Bookstore, of course it's ludicrous to tell them what they should or shouldn't do. still, i do think that if they were to fill that basket with buttons saying "No To Hamas Violence" alongside ones that said "No To IDF Violence," each against the backdrop of half of the Palestinian flag and half the Israeli flag. i would certainly buy one of each. however, not via the CJC, but preferably through Jews for Justice or another such group.

alternatively, i would like to see a button with that symbol i saw hoisted by a Jewish anti-occupation youth group at the Netanyahu rally: a dove in flight with the two flags as its wings.

any other ideas? wanna start a button-making movement?


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 October 2002 12:05 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What about a button with an Israeli and Palestinian flag with one word;

PEACE


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 01 October 2002 12:23 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gush Shalom put out a t-shirt simply with the two flags. I also saw several houses flying the two flags when I was in Amsterdam.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 01 October 2002 12:34 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i've seen some excellent Gush Shalom t-shirts...i was told that they can be bought at their site, but i haven't found any such page yet.
From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
adlib
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Babbler # 2890

posted 01 October 2002 01:20 PM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that Ronald Pagan's post was totally offensive.

The problem is not "Jewish control" of the media. There are very few Jewish voices represented that sound like my friends, working-class, anti-Zionism, anti-oppression, etc.

The problem is that the media is controlled by a small group of people that have virtually the same economic and political interests. Zionism happens to conveniently fit right now. Don't doubt that if any of the supposed "Jewish conspirators" started saying anything outside the "party line" they would dissapear from prominency before you could say black-ball.

People supporting Palestine musn't let themselves be mislead by anti-semitism. Isreal and Zionism do not represent Jewishness.

Saying things like that just gives apologists like Mishei something to grab onto in an effort to bolster their offensive position.

Collateral damage my arse. And no, it's no better when the US or any other state does it.


From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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Babbler # 2

posted 01 October 2002 02:03 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ronald: Anti-semitism is not tolerated on babble. This is your first warning.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 01 October 2002 02:39 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I must say Mishei, and don't take this too personally, I am really tired of your sick defence of the IDF under Sharon. They are NO DIFFERENT THAN THE SUICIDE BOMBERS and maybe worse. When the bomb goes off the bombers are gone too. In the West Bank the IDF hangs around to beat, humiliate and degrade the civilain population. You can, and I am sure will, continue to lie to yourself but the IDF is no different than Hamas only better armed.

If you ever chose to read the daily torment Palestinians suffer at the hands of the IDF rather than just pretend none of it is true you might change your mind. But I know, being a propagandist your conscience cannot allow you to know the truth.

Maybe you can tell me Mishei what per cent of Palestinian children are suffering from severe malnutrition. And if you can give that number then maybe you can tell me how that is simply retaliation as opposed to a collective cruel and barbaric torture.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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Babbler # 518

posted 01 October 2002 02:40 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Mishei and Skdadl, as well as various others about Ronald Pagan's comment. The article would just as likely have appeared in the National Post under Conrad Black.

I am sure Ronald Pagan can do better next time.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 October 2002 03:04 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Saying things like that just gives apologists like Mishei something to grab onto in an effort to bolster their offensive position.


Why am I not surprised that adlib would claim that my support of Israel is offensive?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 01 October 2002 03:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe it isn't your support for Israel, Mishei, but the way you do it.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 01 October 2002 03:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe you can tell me Mishei what per cent of Palestinian children are suffering from severe malnutrition. And if you can give that number then maybe you can tell me how that is simply retaliation as opposed to a collective cruel and barbaric torture.


Please provide objective evidence of this charge. If you can I will condemn it without reservation

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 01 October 2002 03:29 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We refer you to the nutritional assessment report which can be located at the three websites: http://www.usaid.gov/wbg and http://www.carewbg.org and http://hart.itcoop-jer.org for complete findings. However, data highlights include the following:

* Acute Malnutrition (children ages 6-59 months)
Moderate and Severe: 9.3% WB&G (4.3% WB; 13.2% G)
* Chronic Malnutrition (children ages 6-59 months)
Moderate and Severe: 13.2% WB&G (3.5% WB; 17.5% G)
* Anemia (children ages 6-59 months)
Moderate and Severe: 19.7% WB&G (20.9% WB; 18.9% G)
* Anemia (non-pregnant women ages 15-49)
Moderate and Severe: 10.8% WB&G (9.5% WB; 12% G)


To do the math for you, that is close to 25% of all children under five years old suffer moderate to severe symptoms of acute or chronic malnutrion. But it doesn't stop there. Just to add salt to the wounds:

quote:
ISRAEL - Israel Taxes Humanitarian Aid to Palestinians - U.N.
Thalif Deen
UNITED NATIONS, Sep 25 (IPS) - The United Nations is accusing Israel of imposing arbitrary taxes on humanitarian relief supplies - including food and medicine - being ferried to Palestinians in occupied territories.

The levies charged by Israel were "unreasonable and unique", Peter Hansen, commissioner-general of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) for Palestine Refugees, told a meeting of donors Wednesday.

Over the last year, UNRWA has been forced to pay more than 2.5 million dollars - of what should be a purely humanitarian budget - in additional port and storage charges.



That's a fine regime you so strongle defend.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lonewolf
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Babbler # 849

posted 01 October 2002 04:39 PM      Profile for lonewolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skimmed through this unending, hot eye for an eye debate and all I can muster is:

My Favourite Buttons (And Who I would Like to See Wearing Them)...

WAR IS WRONG (George Bush or any of his family)

WHERE IS THE U.N. ? (Everybody in the MidEast)

JUST STOP IT NOW ! (ditto)

WHEN WILL WE LEARN ? (ditto)


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 October 2002 06:32 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's a fine regime you so strongle defend.


What is clear in this report is that the Intifadah has led to some of these tragic problems. That said, with the exception of the tax placed on humanitarian aid, which i strongly oppose, and want to look into more closely,UNWRA does not cast the blame on Israel. Indeed, there is a real question as to the efficiency of the PA and whether or not Arafat and his gang have a great deal of responsibility in distributing the much needed food.

Either way this result of war is deplorable. It is but another reason that peace must prevail to stop the suffering on all sides,


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Q
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3105

posted 01 October 2002 07:02 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about sending Norwegians to negotiate peace there? It will take dividing the land & resources fairly between Palestine & Israel.

BTW mythology is no excuse for a land grab.


From: Wild in the City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 01 October 2002 10:47 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What is clear in this report is that the Intifadah has led to some of these tragic problems.

Comments like these are what drives people like GGINT so batty that they fly off at you in frustration, Mishei.

What do you think is the cause of the Intifada????

You know that "intifada" means "shaking off" in Arabic, right? As in "shaking off the occupier?"

All your false wringing of hands and "wishing for peace" is as transparent as your mild criticisms of Ariel Sharon. Everything you say shows your support for the occupation. Until it ends - or until Bibi or Sharon kills or exiles the rest of the Palestinians - there can't be any peace.

I hope you don't think your weasel words are convincing anyone of your position.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
statica
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1420

posted 02 October 2002 01:36 AM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
excuse me for getting back on topic here (perhaps i can be libeled for that)

anyway, from reading the article (the source!!!!) perhaps one of the reasons there was issue taken around the CJC's button was that it contained the words:

"HOMICIDE BOMBINGS"

it doesn't make a world affairs/media/political genius to understand that that term is pretty controversial and pretty hotly debated.

more so, in my own humble opinion, than the slogan: "Free Palestine -- Time for Peace Time for Women and End the Occupation Now."

Perhaps the wimmin's bookstore was put off by the inflamitory nature of the slogan itself (and perhaps felt such inflamitory gestures were not welcome ...instead of a button that read: "Stop Terrorism" which could have been more widely accepted as it pertains to more than one situation and does not include propaganda.)


From: t-oront-o | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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Babbler # 2356

posted 02 October 2002 01:54 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, statica, for bringing us back on topic.

Does anyone know of similar situations? What were the arguments and how were they resolved?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 02 October 2002 02:44 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the article:

quote:
In response, the CJC offered to produce buttons for free distribution featuring the slogan Stop the Homicide Bombings superimposed on an image of the Star of David.

Mishei:

quote:
It would have been absolutely the right thing to do the ethical and moral thing to do to have accepted the buttons. After all what is it asking? To stop suicide bombings. Surely we all believe in this message? Don't we?

We would all like to have suicide bombings stopped.

However, what is NOT appreciated in this quarter is the use of obviously loaded terminology on a button. People on here have tried to use the term as a way to shutting down debate by ignoring the elemental fact of a suicide bombing - the person doing it dies in the explosion.

Mishei, at the very least you're guilty of what most of us here are, which is not reading the article carefully enough.

At worst, you're guilty of obfuscating the substantive facts in order to try and prod posters here into your version of how the debate should go.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Geophile
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Babbler # 452

posted 02 October 2002 03:09 AM      Profile for Geophile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[Jewish group angry over bookstore's button policy]

[i]Disturbed[i] asked for context on the post I entered under a slightly different title [Button Policy]. My point is that this is an excellent example in miniature of the kind of mental process that goes into some of the outrageous libels that have been uttered for far too long of the state of Israel. I was using a stun gun approach I guess because I really have become very touchy on this subject and for the reason I cited previously. That Stanton character who seems to think I have been smoking or should start smoking is way out of my league. I think maybe his comment is characteristic of himself. Quite possibly it may even apply to some of the outrageous views expressed by his cronies on the list. All I can say is that quite a few people are waking up to the fact that some professed lefties have gone bad when it comes to the Middle East.

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Geophile ]


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 02 October 2002 03:10 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I CAN'T read the article - for some strange reason, whenever there is a link to the National Pest, my computer goes off its software, and it doesn't matter whether I'm using Network or Explorer - guess it is just a deep-seated ideological incompatibility.

If the button says "Stop the homicide bombers", then I'd definitely have refused to carry it, as it is a meaningless term, if not to say a tautology. Almost all bombers, including both Bushes, and Saddam when he attacked Iraqi Kurds, are homicide bombers - even those who try to commit only property damage often wind up killing cleaning staff and night watchment. Of course everyone knows that Palestinian suicide bombers, except for the most incompetent ones, kill and maim other people. But "martyrdom" is a big part of the phenomenon.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Geophile
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Babbler # 452

posted 02 October 2002 04:04 AM      Profile for Geophile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes and so are the virgins who will accompany the besotted, deluded, brain-washed, addled, atavistic biophobes who commits these murders and so are the babies dressed in bomber costumes and dandled at suppers on their parents' knee and the little 10 year olds being trained at summer camp to become them, and the mothers who take pride in their crimes.

Propaganda is a lethal weapon and the PLO is a past master of it. They even got to the academics of the west. Let's get that part sorted out.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 02 October 2002 08:09 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However, what is NOT appreciated in this quarter is the use of obviously loaded terminology on a button. People on here have tried to use the term as a way to shutting down debate by ignoring the elemental fact of a suicide bombing - the person doing it dies in the explosion.


Such sophistry, such callous defence of the indefenceable. Either you support suicide/homicide bombings or you don't. How in heavans name can this be anything but black and white.

While some may wish to understand the deep rooted reasons behind why young Muslims would be manipulated by Hamas thugs to commit murder/suicide, surely no one here would in any way support it. In fact you take great pains to say so like in "I dont't support suicide bombings but..."

My God people, I have read accounts of husbands and fathers who murder their wives and children and then take their own lives. Psychologists and others theorize about what led to such circumstances but the horror remains and no one one says "oh it's deplorable but...". Why can't people here (and no I don't mean everyone) simply accept the notion that the murder of Israelis, the targeted wilful murder of Israelis, (BTW suicide bombers don't give a rats ass about the religion of those they murder)is bad?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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Babbler # 2798

posted 02 October 2002 09:16 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can understand how it would be bad if I was an Israeli. I wouldn't want to be murdered.
But can you accept the notion that chasing people out of their homes is bad?
I don't think there is anything wrong with the CJC's button, except the star of David, which can be as offensive to Palestinians as the swastika is to Jews.
I could wear a "Stop the Homocide" button, sans star. It would make sense alongside "End the Occupation".
But I wouldn't wear it in public. Buttons are so dorky.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 02 October 2002 09:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, that's true about husbands who murder their families and then turn the gun on themselves.

But the point is, when that happens we call that a "murder-suicide", not a "murder-homocide", because the suicide part is a huge part of the equation.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 02 October 2002 11:34 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK Michele, then would you wear the button if it were to read "Stop the SUICIDE bombings"?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 02 October 2002 11:35 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Darn right I would. Right next to the one that says "Stop killing Palestinian Children".
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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Babbler # 117

posted 02 October 2002 11:53 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some buttons I would wear.

Stop killing the children.

What if they gave a war and nobody came?

Give peace a chance.

Down with bombs.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 October 2002 12:32 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Darn right I would. Right next to the one that says "Stop killing Palestinian Children".
OK, now we are getting somewhere. So would you urge the bookstore to carry such buttons if the word "suicide" was used as opposed to "homicide"?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Klaus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2431

posted 02 October 2002 12:43 PM      Profile for Klaus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have watched this thread with much interest.

I believe that if Michelle and Mishei can reach what appears to be an understanding then anything is possible.

I am heartened that there appears now to be a consensus that a button calling for an end to suicide bombings is as relevant and important as one calling for an end to the occupation. it would be nice if the women's collective were to re-assess their original decision . Who knows?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 02 October 2002 12:44 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, save the black and white business for elsewhere. I have never said anything but that suicide bombings should be stopped. However, calling them "homicide bombers" is a favorite tactic of some people and it's designed to make deliberate use of loaded terminology.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 01:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However, calling them "homicide bombers" is a favorite tactic of some people and it's designed to make deliberate use of loaded terminology.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talk about obfuscation. Deliberate or otherwise, in the end it means the same thing...murdered Israelis. I am certainly pleased to hear that you oppose such tactics but let us not get caught in a war of semantics. Murder is murder. I would condemn without hesitation (and have done so) the wilful terrorist murder by fanatical Israelis against innocent Palestinians as I condemn homicide bombers.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 02 October 2002 03:51 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
wilful terrorist murder by fanatical Israelis against innocent Palestinians

do you mean the Israeli Millitary?


From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 October 2002 04:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm glad we're getting somewhere too, Mishei, but I'm afraid we're not out of the woods yet. BTW, I probably wouldn't wear one that says "Stop killing Palestinian children" because that's about as loaded as "Homocide bombers" - both are meant to cause a direct visceral and unreasoning reaction.

In fact, I WOULDN'T urge the book store to carry any buttons they don't feel they want to carry.

First of all, there is an Israeli flag on the button, so that automatically assumes support for the Israeli government. If I didn't feel support for the Israeli government, then I wouldn't sell pins in my bookstore that are jingoistic in tone like that, even if the sentiment expressed on them was one I could support.

Secondly, if I felt that there was a huge power difference (i.e. the only nuclear power in the middle east colonizing and oppressing a refugee colony armed with stones and homemade bombs), especially during a climate of anger and hatred towards Arabs and Muslims as there has been since September 11th, and in a climate where nasty, violence-endorsing bastards like Netanyahu get sea-to-sea, non-critical media coverage in Canada, then yes, I might be willing, in my one little tiny corner of the universe, to inadequately make up for that big power difference by having buttons that say "End The Occupation" but not buttons with jingoistic Israeli nationalist symbols on it.

But that wasn't the question put to me before. You asked whether I would be willing to wear a button that says "Stop the suicide bombings". Yes. Minus the Israeli flag in the background, yes I would. Right next to the other buttons the store was selling. But I would not consider it my right to buy them from the same store.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 04:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You asked whether I would be willing to wear a button that says "Stop the suicide bombings". Yes. Minus the Israeli flag in the background, yes I would. Right next to the other buttons the store was selling. But I would not consider it my right to buy them from the same store.

As I understood the Post story the button had a "Star of David" as a backround. While the Star of David is part of the Israeli flag it is also and has been for milenia the universal symbol representing Judaism. Remember it was this very same Star of David that Jews were forced to wear by the Nazis to identify them as Jews.

Israel is a democratic state and is home to Israelis of all political stripes. You may oppose various Israeli governments but to claim such animus towards Isarel in general is simply wrong-headed. By doing so you reject ALL Israelis even those who are supportive of your views and actively work against the occupation but in a context in which they support the state of Israel.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 04:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
wilful terrorist murder by fanatical Israelis against innocent Palestinians
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

do you mean the Israeli Millitary?


No

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 02 October 2002 04:43 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We have to distinguish animus towards the Israeli people themselves from animus towards the Israeli government, history of the state, certain/most politicians, etc, etc. Most people on babble rarely suffer from the former (and if they do, they are often also running afoul of babble policy), but I quite happily indulge in the latter.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 02 October 2002 04:44 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
then who do you mean?

And can I ask you something, are you Jewish?

Don't take this to mean anything other than the question, it doesn't really matter, I'mjust curious.

I'm assuming you are.


From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 04:49 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
then who do you mean?
And can I ask you something, are you Jewish?

Don't take this to mean anything other than the question, it doesn't really matter, I'mjust curious.

I'm assuming you are.


Cart if you don't know who I mean then you are obviously not current with mid east issues and recent history. Far be it from me to give you a history lesson. It's there and available on the net and even here in various threads if you care to engage in much needed study. As some here are fond of saying, "I will not do your work for you".

As for your question regarding my religious affliation, well quite frankly I find it to be an intrusive and wholly uncalled for question.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 02 October 2002 05:00 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you're reading too much into a basic question, if you don't want to answer that's completely fine.

I wasn't asking so I could use it against you, or to lambast your argument, I was just curious. For all it's worth, I'm staying out of this argument, I just wanted to know.

Apologies for offending you.

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Cart ]


From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 05:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Apologies for offending you.


Accepted. Thank you

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 02 October 2002 06:05 PM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei:
quote:
wilful terrorist murder by fanatical Israelis against innocent Palestinians
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do you mean the Israeli Millitary?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No


...but you thought said:

quote:
murder is murder

Hypocrite.

Edited for typo

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Flowers By Irene ]


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
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posted 02 October 2002 06:16 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoa! I'm sorry, Mishei, but Flowers has got you there!
From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 October 2002 07:14 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't agree that the blue-and-white Star of David on the Israeli flag (a symbol of state power) is the same symbol as the yellow star with "Jew" in various languages, in fake "Hebrew" lettering, that Jews were forced to wear by the Nazis.

A friend of mine still has the "Juif" star she was forced to wear as a little girl in Paris - damn those Nazis, on top of everything else they didn't feminise the stars... My friend is a bit of an old anarchist, for her, Israel is simply a state, like any other. She is certainly opposed to both suicide bombings targeting Israelis and IDF and settler killings of Palestinians!

Of course the Mogen David is an old symbol (though some say it only goes back to medieval times, the candelabra, and the Hebrew alphabet itself, being far older symbols of the Jewish faith and the Jewish people. Not everyone agreed with using a sacred symbol on the flag of a country (though of course many Christian, Muslim etc. countries have done the same). It makes it very difficult for those who oppose the policies of a given state but do not want to offend religious beliefs, or worse, harken back to the discrimination and extermination of people on the basis of their supposed "race".


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 07:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but you thought said:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
murder is murder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hypocrite.


The IDF do not commit murder. Innocent people are tragically killed when Israel is forced to retaliate. There are even times when individual soldiers may commit crimes and have been punished for doing so. But to compare the actions of the IDF to the mass murderers of Hamas is a devious tactic. Just another way to demonize Israel.

Hypocrite? I think this is really the pot calling the kettle black


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 October 2002 07:58 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He's got you there, FBI. You should've called him an unabashed apologist.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 02 October 2002 08:05 PM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, the IDF is above reproach? I don't think so

quote:
The overwhelming majority of Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories when members of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) responded to demonstrations and stone-throwing incidents with excessive and disproportionate use of force, and as a result of the IDFs reckless shooting, shelling and aerial bombardments of residential areas. Palestinian children have also been killed as bystanders during Israels extrajudicial execution of targeted activists, or were killed when their homes were demolished. Others died because they were denied access to medical care by the IDF. At least three Palestinian children have been killed by armed Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories
...
In the first months of the intifada, the majority of child victims were killed as a result of the unlawful and excessive use of lethal force in response to demonstrations and stone-throwing incidents, when the lives of IDF soldiers were not at risk. In 2002 the majority were those children killed when the IDF randomly opened fire, or shelled or bombarded residential neighbourhoods in Palestinian towns and villages. Most of these children were killed when there was no exchange of fire and in circumstances in which the lives of the soldiers were not at risk.
...
Even though Israel has in the past rejected the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Territories (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip), according to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the UN, and the international community in general, the Fourth Geneva Convention fully applies to the Occupied Territories and the Palestinians are a protected population under the terms of the Convention.
...
The pattern of killing of children which has become so entrenched and widespread in the past two years developed against a background of impunity for the perpetrators of such crimes over many years prior to the current intifada. Between 1987 and 2000, the 13 years which preceded the start of the current intifada some 280 Palestinian children were killed, most of them by the IDF and some by Israeli settlers, in the Occupied Territories. In the same period 18 Israeli children were killed by Palestinians, most of them in Israel and some in the Occupied Territories. Invariably those responsible for such crimes were granted impunity.

In the overwhelming majority of cases the Israeli authorities did not conduct adequate investigations and the Israeli soldiers and settlers who were responsible for the killing of Palestinian children were not brought to trial. Even in the few cases where Israelis were tried for the killing of Palestinian children, the sentences they received were not commensurate with the seriousness of the crime they had committed. For example, in January 2001 the Jerusalem District Court sentenced a 37-year-old Israeli man to six months community service for the killing of an 11-year-old Palestinian child. At the same time, an 18-year-old Palestinian woman was sentenced to six and half years imprisonment for stabbing and injuring an Israeli settler, an offence she had committed when she was 15 years old.(31)
...
No judicial investigation into any of the cases of killings of Palestinian children by the IDF in the Occupied Territories is known to have been carried out. In some of the cases Israeli government officials stated publicly that an investigation would be carried out. This was notably so for cases which attracted a lot of international interest, such as the cases of Iman Hijju, Hikmat al-Malalha, the Istal brothers, or the Gaza bombing - detailed on pages 7, 10, and 5. However, even in the cases where such commitments were made, eyewitnesses, or people who were injured with the victims and who could have provided valuable information to any inquiry about the incident have not been interviewed or even contacted by the Israeli authorities several months after the incidents and no judicial investigations are known to have been opened.


AI


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 October 2002 08:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei lives in a pretend world.
Tell me though, Mishei, in your world, is there any businesses selling or giving away materials in support of Israel which also sell or give away buttons that say: End the Occupation or Stop Killing Palestinians?

I'm just curious.

And if not, why not? Or is this another case of Israeli hypocrisy?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 October 2002 08:46 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gush Shalom definitely supports the existence of Israel, and considers it a nation that has the right to a state, and issues material against the occupation and IDF and settler killings of Palestinian civilians, house demolitions, etc.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 09:23 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well wing when it comes to hypocricy it seems that Irene and you share evenly. Irene hi-lites what she feels is important and in a war of such tragic proportions it appears there is MUCH blame to go around according to AI..

-------------------------------------------------
Since the beginning of the intifada, the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip which broke out in September 2000(1), Palestinian and Israeli children have been targeted in an unprecedented manner. In the period from 29 September 2000 to the end of August 2002, some 1700 Palestinians, including more than 250 children, were killed, and more than 580 Israelis, most of them civilians and including 72 children, were killed.(2)

The overwhelming majority of Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories when members of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) responded to demonstrations and stone-throwing incidents with excessive and disproportionate use of force, and as a result of the IDFs reckless shooting, shelling and aerial bombardments of residential areas. Palestinian children have also been killed as bystanders during Israels extrajudicial execution of targeted activists, or were killed when their homes were demolished. Others died because they were denied access to medical care by the IDF. At least three Palestinian children have been killed by armed Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories.

Israeli children have been killed in direct and indiscriminate attacks, including suicide bombings, and shootings by members of Palestinian armed groups and by Palestinian individuals who may not belong to armed groups(3), both inside Israel and in settlements or on roads leading to settlements in the Occupied Territories.

The patterns of killings described in this report show how the right to life of Palestinian and Israeli children has been repeatedly violated as a result of the systematic failure of the Israeli authorities, Palestinian armed groups, and the Palestinian Authority (PA) to comply with the obligations and safeguards set down in international human rights and humanitarian law.

This report focuses on the killing of children, the most grave and irreversible of the many abuses to which Palestinian and Israeli children have been subjected in the past two years.(4) Over the years, Amnesty International and other organizations have documented different patterns of serious and systematic violations of some of the most fundamental human rights -- including the right to life-- in Israel and the Occupied Territories.(5)


KILLINGS OF ISRAELI CHILDREN

Seventy two Israeli children have been killed in attacks by armed Palestinians since the beginning of the intifada. A high percentage of the victims (some 70%) were killed by suicide bombings and the rest were killed in shooting and other attacks.

In the past 18 months there has been a marked increase in attacks on Israeli civilians, both in Israel and in settlements or roads leading to settlements in the Occupied Territories, and an increasingly high number of victims have been children.

In the first seven months of 2002 alone, 36 children (17 in the Occupied Territories and 19 in Israel) were killed, the equivalent of the total number of Israeli children killed during the whole of the previous year.(13) Amnesty International has repeatedly called on Palestinian armed groups to end attacks on civilians, which can never be justified, immediately and unconditionally.(14)

Children killed in suicide attacks

On 1 June 2001 a suicide bomber blew himself up among a group of young people waiting to enter the Dolphinarium night club in Tel Aviv, killing 21 people, 20 of them civilians, where 12 were aged under 18. About 120 others were wounded. This was the bloodiest attack by Palestinian armed groups on Israeli civilians for several years. The 'Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, claimed responsibility for the attack two days later in a statement faxed to foreign media in which the suicide bomber was named as 20-year-old Said Hutari, originally from Qalqilya, resident in Jordan. The statement expressed pride for the attack and pledged to carry out further attacks. By choosing to target such a place, the entrance to a discothèque on a Friday night, the attacker meant to kill and harm as many civilians as possible and must have anticipated that many children would be among the victims.
Most of the victims who were killed in the attack had immigrated to Israel in recent years from the former Soviet Union. They were: Raisa Namirovsky (15), from Netanya and her neighbour and friend Maria Tagilchev (14 years), outside whose school a car bomb had exploded two days earlier; Yevgenia Keren Dorfman, (15 years), who sustained serious brain damage in the explosion and died after 18 days; Katherine Kastanada Talker (15 years) a student from Ramat Gan; 16-year-old Yulia Nelimov, whose 18-year-old sister Yelena was also killed; Irina Nepomneschi, a 16-year-old business administration student from Bat Yam; Anya Kazachkov and her friend Mariana Medvedenko, both aged 16; Marina Berkovski from Tel Aviv, who went to the nightclub to celebrate her 17th birthday; and 16-year-old Aleksei Lupalu, who had immigrated from Ukraine just six months earlier.

" I looked at them, they were all laughing" recalls the owner of the a kiosk located just 15 meters from the club "the boys were flirting with they girls. They were all in a good mood, they looked like angels, dressed so nice."(15)

Just over two months after the Dolphinarium bombing, another major suicide attack was carried out on 9 August in the Sbarro Pizzeria, at a busy intersection in the heart of West Jerusalem. A man walked into the pizzeria during a crowded lunch hour and detonated a powerful bomb packed with nails, killing 14 civilians, including seven children, and injuring more than 100. Both the groups Islamic Jihad and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, which killed: 16-year-old Michal Raziel and her 15-year-old long-term friend Malka Roth; the two girls had stopped for lunch at the pizzeria on their way to Talpiot, to take part in activities of the youth movement of which they were both members; five members of the Schijveschuurder family, from Neria, were killed in the attack and two others were injured: Tzira and Mordechai Schijveschuurder were killed along with their daughters Ra'aya and Hemda (ages 14 and two), and their four-year-old son Avraham Yitzhak; two other daughters were injured. The family had come to spend the day in Jerusalem, to relax from the tension of the frequent shootings near their home in Neria settlement in the West Bank.

"The last time I was my brother Avraham Yitzhak," recalled Haya Schijveschuurder from her bed in hospital, "he was lying on a stretcher in an ambulance. He had a bandage on his face. He was four years old"

"We were hungry, so Mommy said we could go to a restaurant to eat. In that restaurant, you have to pay first and only afterwards you sit down to eat. When were at the cash register, we suddenly heard an explosion. I ran out as fast as I could. I didn't look at anything. I just ran out. A medic, I don't know his name, took me to an ambulance and that is where I saw Avraham Yitzhak for the last time."(16)

Eight-year-old Tamara Shimashvili from Jerusalem was killed with her mother, Lily. Her father was in Moscow at the time of the bombing. Lily and Tamara had arrived in Israel only eight months earlier from Moscow, to join the rest of their family. Yocheved Shoshan, aged 10, had gone with her mother and her sisters, Rachel and Michal, to have lunch at the pizzeria. They were seated on the second floor, but Yocheved and Michal had gone back downstairs, where the explosion occurred, to order another slice of pizza. Yocheved was killed instantly in the explosion and Michal was seriously wounded.

On 16 February 2002, a suicide bomber strapped with nail-studded explosives blew himself up in a pizzeria in the shopping mall of Karnei Shomron, an Israeli settlement in the West Bank, killing three teenagers: Keren Shatzki, 14, who had gone to the local Yuvalim Mall to meet up with friends and eat pizza; Nehemia Amar, 15, had gone to the pizza restaurant with his older brother Moshe; when the bomb detonated, Moshe had just left his brother for a minute; and 16-year-old Rachel Thaler, who never recovered from the critical head injury she sustained in the bombing and never regained consciousness until her death on 27 February, 12 days after the attack. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) claimed responsibility for this attack.

Twelve people were killed and more than 50 people were injured by a suicide bomber on the evening of 2 March 2002 near a synagogue in the orthodox Beit Yisrael neighbourhood of Jerusalem. The bomb was detonated next to a group of women waiting, with their baby carriages, for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue following sundown prayers marking the end of the Sabbath. Seven of those killed included two sisters, six-year-old Shiraz Nehmad and her two-year-old sister Liran, whose parents also died in the attack; their cousins Lidor and Oriah Ilan, aged 12 years and 18 months, and Shaul and Avraham Eliahu Nehmad, aged 15 and 17. Avraham Eliahu lost an arm and suffered severe internal injuries in the explosion and never regained consciousness. He died of his injuries on 20 June. A seven-month-old baby, Ya'akov Avraham was also killed with his mother, 23-year-old Tzofia Eliahu. They lived in the Beit Yisrael neighbourhood and on Saturday, Tzofia went with her two children, two-year-old Shira and the baby Ya'akov, to the home of her sister, who lived nearby and they went for a walk.

When we came back Yaakov started crying, and Tzofia lifted him from the baby carriage, her sister Livnat said. Livnat continued walking with Shira and the carriage, when the explosion occurred. I looked back, and I didn't see Tzofia and Ya'akov - I just saw fire."(17)

The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.

Children killed in other attacks

Israeli children have been killed in targeted shootings or as a result of other attacks on civilian targets such as private houses, cars or public buses.

Shalhevet Pass was 10 months old when she was shot by a Palestinian sniper from a hill opposite the entrance to the Israeli settlement of Avraham Avinu, in Hebron, on 26 March 2001. She was shot in the head as her parents tried to protect her. According to the Israeli authorities one of the bullets penetrated the baby's head, passing through the skull and then hitting her father's leg. On 16 August 2002 the IDF announced to the media that it had arrested the man responsible for her killing.

Five-month-old Yehuda Shoham, from the Israeli settlement of Shilo in the West Bank, was seriously wounded in the head by a rock thrown by Palestinians through the windscreen of his familys car near his home on 5 June 2001. He suffered severe brain damage and remained unconscious and attached to a respirator in hospital, where he died on 11 June.

Two teenagers, 16-year-old Shoshana Ben-Yishai and 14-year-old Menashe Regev were both killed on 4 November 2001 when a gunman belonging to Islamic Jihad fired at a commuter bus at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. Forty five people were injured in the attack.

Avia Malka, a nine-month-old baby, was killed by two Palestinians who shot and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in Netanya on 9 March 2002. One other person was killed and about 50 people were injured, several of them seriously. The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.

On 27 April 2002, three armed men attacked residents of Adora, an Israeli settlement in the West Bank. In the bedroom of one house a gunman killed five-year old Danielle Shefi as she hid under a bed, and wounded her mother Shiri, her brothers Uriel, aged four and Eliad, aged two. Elsewhere in the settlement, they also killed three adults. The Izz-al-Din al-Qassam Brigades (the military wing of Hamas) claimed responsibility for what it described as an "heroic and daring operation."(18)

-------------------------------------------------Yes Hypocricy at its best huh?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 October 2002 09:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ya know, I started a thread about that over here.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 October 2002 10:08 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well wing when it comes to hypocricy it seems that Irene and you share evenly. Irene hi-lites what she feels is important and in a war of such tragic proportions it appears there is MUCH blame to go around according to AI..

And combined we can't begin to match your level.

Because, Mishei who is blind to all but his own propaganda, the entire point has been, all along, to point out to you that the Palestinian extremists and Israeli government are equally culpable. That you have finally acknowledged that Israel shares in the blame is a major accomplishment. I am sure tomorrow you will again be denying it and trumpeting the IDF's "purity" of death squads.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 02 October 2002 10:40 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't feel bad, DocC. I started a thread about Palestinian non-violent resistance over here and have had only two visitors.

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 02 October 2002 10:49 PM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, did I ever deny that Palestinians share blame? No. So where is this hypocracy of mine? The issue at hand is your assertion that the IDF never committed extrajudicial killings, which I believe has been clearly disproven.
From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2002 10:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And combined we can't begin to match your level.
Because, Mishei who is blind to all but his own propaganda, the entire point has been, all along, to point out to you that the Palestinian extremists and Israeli government are equally culpable. That you have finally acknowledged that Israel shares in the blame is a major accomplishment. I am sure tomorrow you will again be denying it and trumpeting the IDF's "purity" of death squads.


I still categorically reject any comparision of thee IDF to the cold blooded killers of Hamas.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 02 October 2002 11:03 PM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why? Both were created by the Israeli government, and both have members that kill innocent civilians.

Nope, no comparison there.


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 02 October 2002 11:05 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is a purely hypothetical question, but I'd like Mishei to give an honest response.

If Hamas had the means to launch a mortar attack on Ariel Sharon's home, and did so, killing Sharon, his family and a few assorted neighbours, would this be murder?

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 October 2002 12:12 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Hamas had the means to launch a mortar attack on Ariel Sharon's home, and did so, killing Sharon, his family and a few assorted neighbours, would this be murder?


It would be a political assasination.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 October 2002 01:00 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Waitasec tho. In this hypothetical example, it ain't JUST Sharon that gets bumped off. It's other, presumably, innocent people who had nothing to do with Sharon's day-to-day decision-making as Prime Minister of Israel.

That's not a political assassination. It's an act of violence with the assumption of "collateral damage".

Contrast with the Ze'evi assassination, if memory serves. He shot his mouth off, appeared capable of carrying out his threat, and a group of people bumped him, and only him, off.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
adlib
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posted 03 October 2002 03:04 AM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just wondering how many threads, exactly, does Mishei intend to appropriate for the purpose of having an audience for his propaganda?
From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
statica
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Babbler # 1420

posted 03 October 2002 04:31 AM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
do you ever wonder why conflicts like what's occuring in the middle east never seem to get solved....

perhaps it's because any debate had in civil society disintergrates into this mess...

and ya, what i'm saying here is symplistic, but it just shows how blinded people are by their own propaganda, sitting like a cancerous tumour over the iris.

there's no telling Mishei anything that he hasn't already heard and probably ignored -- ain't that the way it is with those who hold power over others. and no amount of blood will be enough to gain palestinians the *proper balance of power in the region they need to fight for their rights on equal footing so they woulnd't have to resort to such tactics -- ain't no telling them that, either.

*perhaps my sentiments would be different if the palestinians and isrealis in this area were fighting on equal footing, because the rule "collective punishment/"an eye for an eye" could apply -- i hear that evoked in the language from the middle east as if the conflict can be boiled down to a matter a morals because the fight is fair and just in the name of security.

but rather, it's stones and homemade bombs against a state and a huge military infrastructure complete with nukes and american allies...that hardly seems fair.

to me, a nobody in the grander political scheme of things, suicide bombs are refered to as such (and not homocide bombers) because the word "suicide" draws attention to the desperation that fuels the fight back (because i'm sorry, no normal, well-healed, fulfilled individual would carry out such an attack as a product of PA brainwashing alone)

... young palestinian men (and wimmin) are using rocks against tanks! how is that an equal, fair, situation to base morals upon (an "eye for an eye"; collective punishment)...there is no such things as morals here, so please don't try and evoke them.

ps: I believe suicide bombing has to stop, but i also think people need to look long and hard at the power imbalance and oppression in the region to understand how to stop them (by admitting the problem and making a good-faith attempt to right them)


From: t-oront-o | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 03 October 2002 08:33 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just wondering how many threads, exactly, does Mishei intend to appropriate for the purpose of having an audience for his propaganda?
APPROPRIATE?? This is the most blatant attempt to date at tryng to stifle free speech on this board and I sincerely hope others (even those who passionately disagree with me) will speak up.

If this is a "discussion board" are you trying to say that I have no right to post my mind? If so then it runs contrary to all we hold dear in a free and democratic society.

As long as I have something to add (again I never asked anyone to agree with me)on this board and as long as I am able to speak out I will continue to do so.

Adlib your question is close to what I would expect from someone whose views are autocratic and undemocratic.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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Babbler # 1064

posted 03 October 2002 09:07 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
APPROPRIATE?? This is the most blatant attempt to date at tryng to stifle free speech on this board ...

Really, Mishei. Children may be listening. You're insulting their intelligence.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 October 2002 11:53 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I know that many here will just dismiss this out of hand as more Israeli propaganda, I still feel it is important for babblers to see the official Israeli response to the UN report cited in this thread.

Israeli reaction to UN report


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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Babbler # 2356

posted 03 October 2002 11:53 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
APPROPRIATE?? This is the most blatant attempt to date at tryng to stifle free speech....[yadda yadda blah blah blah]

I'm tellin' ya, kid. Get into the clubs. Work on your timing a bit, and HBO will hand you a full hour where you can get paid to do this stuff.

It's gold, kiddo, pure gold.

Who knows? You could be star of a sitcom...hmm titles?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 October 2002 01:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Arch...you are indeed to kind to me

Now to get back to the issue of the buttons ...NOW magazine had an interesting take today and I thought I would share it with you all:
NOW


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 03 October 2002 01:23 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
14,500 terrorist acts? Holy schmoley, Batman, I didn't realize throwing a rock at a tank was a terrorist act. How can you not see that this is propaganda, plain and simple? The fact that they "apologize for the few injuries" caused to innocent civilians, and then completely blame the Palestinian people for their plight, is telling. They also mention that 220 commissions have been started investigating specific incidents, but don't mention how many led to charges against soldiers or commanders.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 03 October 2002 01:37 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
and then completely blame the Palestinian people for their plight, is telling.

"the Palestinian people" -- You're missing a keyword: "Leadership."
The Palestinian Leadership -- corrupt to the core -- is to blame. Period.

From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 03 October 2002 01:50 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, they blame the Palestinian terrorists (my bad). Which, I assume includes the leadership, given the treatment afforded Palestinian politicians lately.

There is a reason why I bolded the word injuries above, BTW.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 03 October 2002 01:54 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting in as much as it illustrates how easily the media can be manipulated by the CJC.

Now the right to lifers can have a go. I'm sure they have plenty of free buttons with loaded terminology and imagery they'd love to put into a women's bookstore. Let's not oppress them, they've got rights to propagandize on private property too, right?


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 03 October 2002 01:59 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Palestinian Leadership -- corrupt to the core -- is to blame. Period.

Those dopes. What were they thinking when they asked Israel to invade?

Your link was useful. Mishei. At last we see what the button in question looks like.

Strange, but to me it looks like an anti-Israeli statement. The juxtapostition of the Mogen David and the term "homicide bombers" creates an association between the Israeli Air Force (Mogen David roundels on their wings) and killers who go home to their families after doing their duty.

"Suicide bombers," on the other hand, get scattered all over the landscape.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 October 2002 03:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Interesting in as much as it illustrates how easily the media can be manipulated by the CJC.
Now the right to lifers can have a go. I'm sure they have plenty of free buttons with loaded terminology and imagery they'd love to put into a women's bookstore. Let's not oppress them, they've got rights to propagandize on private property too, right?


Oh Ron give me a break. The pro-lifers stand diametrically opposed to EVERYTHING the Woman's bookstore (and I would venture to say the majority of Canadians) feel in relation to issues especially the right of a woman to choose.

In this case all that was asked of the Bookstore was to display a button that in effect pleaded for non-violence which as I understand is stated in the mandate of the bookstore. That is significantly different and for you to suggest otherwise is just a rather disingenuous way of trying to turn this issue on it's head.

Indeed when NOW mamgazine calls the Bookstore's position a "double standard" effectively agreeing with cjc, one must begin to take notice.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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Babbler # 2739

posted 03 October 2002 04:02 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Finger pointing, as has been going on here, is NOT helping, nor has it for 20 years.

The simple fact is, for every suicide/homocide/whatever bombing that kills Isrealis, an rough average of 3 Palestinians per Isreali die.

The ONLY way to stop this from happening is to stop the bombings. Whether Isreal is justified or not is pointless to argue, they have the power and they use it. PERIOD.

The only answer I see is non-violent resistance. Peaceful resistance clearly shows which group is the aggressor.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 03 October 2002 04:22 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In this case all that was asked of the Bookstore was to display a button that in effect pleaded for non-violence

If you look at the way you've worded this, you'll see that even you understand that the request was "in effect" disingenuous, cynical and directed entirely at the cheap seats. In exactly the same way that pro-lifers' wide-eyed claims to be interested in women's health issues are.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 03 October 2002 04:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you look at the way you've worded this, you'll see that even you understand that the request was "in effect" disingenuous, cynical and directed entirely at the cheap seats. In exactly the same way that pro-lifers' wide-eyed claims to be interested in women's health issues are.


Ron Ron Ron, actually I see nothing of the sort. Come on, drop your automatic...if Mishei says it then it's wrong...position for a moment and see that even NOW magazine, people like Ellie Kirshner and Alice Klein, see that the Bookstore erred. Surely you can swallow a bit of your pride and admit that maybe NOW is right and the Bookstore displayed an obvious and unacceptable double standard.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 03 October 2002 04:59 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, someone named klaus is the one I considered to be wrong, you're just compounding his mistake as far as I can see. Fortunately, I don't rely on Alice Klein and NOW magazine to do my thinking for me. I think that "double standard" is a ridiculous statement. If a Jewish women's group approached this bookstore with a request to help fund an Israeli women's peace initiative and had been turned down, I'd be somewhat more inclined overlook the enormous power disparity between Palestinian and Israeli women and join the protest. Somewhat.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 03 October 2002 05:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, someone named klaus is the one I considered to be wrong, you're just compounding his mistake as far as I can see.
Ron, now Im really confused. What is it that Klaus was wrong about? Surely not posting the story?

And am I to take it that you feel suicide bombings need not be condemned? Please elaborate.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 03 October 2002 06:03 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who, or what is behind "NOW" magazine? Who are Ellie Kirshner and Alice Klein? I could be way off base here, but are Kirshner and Klein editors of "NOW?" If so, is "NOW" some sort of Toronto Jewish community magazine or are these names just coincidental?


I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but really want to know.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 03 October 2002 06:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, dear. Are people being asked to raise their hands again, or line up in straight rows, or sing in unison? I thought we dealt with that kind of bullying in the first posts of this silly thread.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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Babbler # 2116

posted 03 October 2002 06:15 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oops. I forgot. Of course you wholeheartedly support the CJC's rhetorical device: feigned dismay and confusion. It's your modus operandi. Thanks, but no thanks.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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Babbler # 2739

posted 03 October 2002 06:20 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arch, NOW Magazine is a independant weekly newspaper in Toronto.

A fairly left, but decently respected news source for the "Cesspool of Canadian Culture" as my Dad likes to refer to Toronto.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 03 October 2002 06:31 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I thought we dealt with that kind of bullying in the first posts of this silly thread.
Skdadl, I am unsure as to what you are referring to. If it was my question to Ron, well, it was an honest question to HIM. Are such questions to be considered bullying in the context of this thread? Certainly not my intent but I was curious as to his position.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 03 October 2002 09:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, someone named klaus is the one I considered to be wrong, you're just compounding his mistake as far as I can see.

I can't imagine Klaus and Mishei having different opinions on this issue.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 04 October 2002 08:50 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And am I to take it that you feel suicide bombings need not be condemned? Please elaborate.

OK, you're a jerk for continually baiting people with this line of nonsense. Elaboration complete.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Q
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3105

posted 04 October 2002 06:20 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I simply don't understand why literate people in the 21st century are still practicing religion.

Religion is the business of repression and division. It's so offensive to daily hear assaults on others who's brain washing differs from their neighbours.

Look people you can create artistic rituals without the violence.


From: Wild in the City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
adlib
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Babbler # 2890

posted 04 October 2002 06:49 PM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I have a problem with requesting an end to the suicide bombings at all. Asking for an end to protest won't solve anything. I've yet to see the use of any tactic, including violent self-defence (offensively or defensively) used by a resistance movement when it is unnecessary. I don't think that anyone who is not directly experiencing Isreali oppression on a daily basis is in any position to rule out the use of any tactic deemed necessary by resistance movements. But that's my opinion.

At any rate, Mishei, you are too kind. If you find my beliefs autocratic or whatever, considering that you name Isreal a "democracy" and in general have proven to have absolutely no understanding of what words like democracy, fascism, and freedom mean, surely I'm on the right path.


From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Q
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 04 October 2002 06:52 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is a theocracy not a democracy.

Does anyone know why the USA doesn't simply declare Israel to be another state?


From: Wild in the City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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Babbler # 2978

posted 04 October 2002 07:01 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When was the last time I saw a billboard proclaiming the glory of suicide bombing? It's hard to recall. Do suicide bombers have lobby groups?
From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 04 October 2002 07:33 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arch, in general I agree with you on this thread, but you have erred in bringing the ethnicity of NOW staff into the argument. As I'd said before, Naomi Klein and Judy Rebick don't at all have the same outlook as Izzy Asper...

Adlib, I do have a problem with suicide bombings of civilian targets as a tactic of resistance, both in moral and political terms. In moral terms, not just because innocent Israeli civilians are targeted - after all, that happens in any war, and I don't think combattants who don't have a real state are any more to be condemned than a regular army - Mishei, I have a friend in France who, other than saving quite a few Jewish people, also blew up trains carrying goods and troops for the Nazi occupiers, when he was a young man long ago.

But because of the harm the cult of martyrdom is doing to Palestinian society, the growth of a religious outlook in the resistance itself, the sidelining of progressive and feminist forces. Not to mention how the suicide bombers play into the hands of Sharon and Netanyahu, and encourage ethnic cleansing.

Fortunately there has been a resurgence of more mass-based forms of resistance, recently a defiance of the curfew.

Blake's comment was really funny. I'm trying to imagine a suicide-bomber fans campaign...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 04 October 2002 07:54 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Arch, in general I agree with you on this thread, but you have erred in bringing the
ethnicity of NOW staff into the argument. As I'd said before, Naomi Klein and Judy Rebick don't at all have the same outlook as Izzy Asper...

I thought I was being careful about raising the issue. I genuinely wanted clarification on what sort of publication NOW is.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 04 October 2002 08:33 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is fine, and thanks for the clarification. I wasn't insinuating any racism on your part - it is just so important to break out of an ethnic, religious, or "mythological" vision of what is a territorial and political conflict.

I participate in the PAJU vigil (Palestinians and Jews United) - against the occupation and it is really important to break the gridlock of uncritical support for Israeli policies in much of the Jewish community - including many people who are progressive on everything else...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Q
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3105

posted 04 October 2002 10:29 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By that remark are you suggesting that all Palestinians are Moslems?

What's the deal with these archaic superstitions?


From: Wild in the City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 04 October 2002 10:41 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Q - don't know if this is a troll - of course not.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Q
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3105

posted 04 October 2002 10:46 PM      Profile for Q   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh someone up there said they participte in Palestinian & Jewish group. I wonder why the confusion between countries and religious ideologies.
From: Wild in the City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 04 October 2002 10:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Q is a troll...
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 04 October 2002 11:30 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been looking around for Jewish Peace (for want of a better term) sites and came up with these few:

Uri Avnery He seems like a good man to me.

Jewish Voice for Peace and their allies.

Not In My Name.

On a different note, Sharon's recent attack on Ramallah has turned even Edward Said into a defender of Arafat, which is unusual since Said has been very critical of Arafat in the past. Said also mentions that the Intifada is entering what appears to be a new phase, with non-violent resistance to the occupation growing stronger.

If only someone would notice....

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1752

posted 04 October 2002 11:54 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arch, don't forget

B'tselem

and my favourite,

Tikkun


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Klaus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2431

posted 05 October 2002 04:54 PM      Profile for Klaus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am always amazed at the turn a thread can take. I posted this story originally to determine how babblers felt about the decision of the bookstore to reject the offer of cjc to carry buttons condemning "homicide bombings"

Of most interest to me were the attacks lodged against the cjc for attempting what some here felt was a ruse.

I'm not sure what the congress' motivation may have been. Quite possibly it was PR ruse. It may also have been a sincere attempt at trying to equalize the debate at the bookstore.

I have to imagine that Jewish women from many walks of life use the store. There will be those who oppose the occupation, those who support Camp David etc. But I imagine that despite what they believe they all would without hesitation deplore the death of innocent people on all sides.

So, I repeat why is not possible to carry "End the Occupation" buttons beside "End the suicide bombings" button? Both seem reasonable.

Can't you all see that many I have spoken with (outside this board) editorials I have heard and read from the political left and right are all asking that very question.

Perhaps the bookstore made an error in judgement. Perhaps a simple acknowledgement of this would go a long way in bringing respectability back to a store that many on the left especially (my own wife included) are beginning to wonder about.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 05 October 2002 05:08 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, I repeat why is not possible to carry "End the Occupation" buttons beside "End
the suicide bombings" button? Both seem reasonable

Yes, that does seem reasonable. A button saying, "End the homicide bombings, however, may have been a little too strongly worded for the bookstore's liking.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 05 October 2002 05:10 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
End the too-long threads!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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