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Author Topic: 30 of 49 Palestinians killed in August were civilians
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 02 September 2002 06:03 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
30 of 49 Palestinians killed in August were civilians

By Amira Hass

Between August 1 and last night, 49 Palestinians were killed by Israel Defense Forces fire in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; around 180 were injured, with at least 65 of them sustaining wounds from live fire (including shrapnel from shells and missiles). Thirty of those killed were unarmed civilians. Another two Palestinians, both in their 70s, died of injuries sustained in July.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 02 September 2002 06:15 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To which end:

Israel probes Palestinian deaths


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 02 September 2002 06:26 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uhhh, so it is not clear what the cause of these deths are, and they need to be investigated. Probable cause: Israel's attempt to enforce the occupation upon unwilling Palestinians.

From the BBC article:

quote:
"The calls for an investigation are meant for media consumption because we have never heard of any result of these panels created after the killing of Palestinian civilians," senior Palestinian cabinet minister Saeb Erekat said.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 02 September 2002 06:31 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, when I read that article, I thought I bet GGINT uses Erekat's quote when he replies!

Sure enough....


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 02 September 2002 06:59 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Great! I am glad that you are completely aware of all of our responses and views.

It must be tough to have such genius in the sea of ignorance that surrounds you. Isn't there some other activity that your huge brain could be engaged in somewhere else. Why bother with us sub-morons anyway?

Perhaps you should contact Tony Bairs office in regard to a job as an advisor, sighting your omniscient unerstanding of all things as your primary job qualification.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 03 September 2002 04:42 AM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, it wasn't exactly difficult in this instance, was it? And you are seldom upredictable. Like you say, some things need to be repeated and with you, I guess, you just need to be repetitive.

Ad infinitum...

(BTW, who does 'our' refer to? Are you more than one person?)


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 03 September 2002 11:55 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
on another note deportations to gaza are given the green lightalbeit on a case by case basis
From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 September 2002 03:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE] Uhhh, so it is not clear what the cause of these deths are,and they need to be investigated . Probable cause: Israel's attempt to enforce the occupation upon unwilling Palestinians."


Now this is the height of arrogance. GGINT would just do away with a judicial inquiry. He knows better than anyone else why these tragedies happen. Um no thanks, that's not my world or I imagine anyone who treasures justice.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 03 September 2002 08:19 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

I happened across this image the other day and it seemed to sum up the palestinian experience rather well...

From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 04 September 2002 06:18 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Now this is the height of arrogance. GGINT would just do away with a judicial inquiry. He knows better than anyone else why these tragedies happen. Um no thanks, that's not my world or I imagine anyone who treasures justice.

People who treasure justice, treasure a judicial system that does more than slaps wrists and white washes serious crimes.

Misconstruing the meaning of my statement and then feigning shock at the conclusion you have drawn as if to say that I am opposed to justice is the apex of stupidity. Are you stupid? Not one person who has read my comment could possibly think that I wish to do away with justice. Quite the opposite.

Given that it is clear that you are not stupid it is only possible to conclude that you are deliberately prevericating in an attempt to win debating points. Please don't be silly, there is no need to be.

Try arguing against Mr Erekat's premis, which is that Israeli justice is ineffective and soft on the IDF when it comes to Palestinians lives.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 11:35 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Try arguing against Mr Erekat's premis, which is that Israeli justice is ineffective and soft on the IDF when it comes to Palestinians lives.


I see, well before I do that why don't you speak to us about Palestinian justice and it's effectiveness when it comes to Israeli lives.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 September 2002 11:45 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yesterday the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in favour of the deportation of relatives of suicide bombers.

quote:
The court ruling allows Israel to expel relatives of terror suspects if it's proven they assisted in an attack. Other deterrent measures Israel uses include destroying the homes of suspected bombers.

Human rights activists say the expulsions violate the Geneva Conventions.


It has not been clear to me in any of the sources I've read on this story whether the two deportees have been proved guilty of assisting; sources just keep saying that the Israelis charge they assisted their brother. I also can't find out whether anything was ever proved against the brother.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 04 September 2002 12:34 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I mentioned seeing a Hamas spokesman on a CBC documentary last week.

In the same documentary, family members and friends of a suicide bomber were interviewed. Those who weren't too stunned by grief said they had no idea what their son/brother/friend was involved with. If they had they would have tried to stop him.

I suppose their house is now bulldozed and they face transportation to Gaza.

Justice.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 04 September 2002 05:30 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I see, well before I do that why don't you speak to us about Palestinian justice and it's effectiveness when it comes to Israeli lives.

Certainly, and I have done so on a number of occasions on this board. However, the reality is that the IDF and Israel are the supreme authority in the WB. We do not see Israelis being indicted, tried and deported by the PA. Nor does the PA officially operate inside Israel, or even within the settlements as agreed within the Oslo accords. On the other hand Israel feels that it has the right to act in whatever manner it chooses within the WB and Gaza strip -- even though it has signed agreements saying that it will not in fact operate with specific areas within the occupied territories.

As for the conduct of the PA legal system as it was constituted within the terms of the Oslo accords, they have a far better record of arrest and trial of people suspected of commiting crimes against Israelis.

Was Sharon ever actually arrested for his part in Sabra and Shatila? No, instead a toothless judicial inquirey was held, one that found Sharon essentially culbable at the level of being grossly incompetent. But then no criminal charges were brought, for all intents an purposes Sharon was let of scott free and allowed to continue in public life to the point where he is now Prime Minster.

On the other hand the people responsible for the Ze'evi assassination were arrested by the PA within a week, and were in the process of being tried when Sharon invaded the WB in the winter, and shut down the PA legal system.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 05:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
suppose their house is now bulldozed and they face transportation to Gaza.

Justice.


You suppose! and you believe your supposition is enough to indict an entire judicial system. Give me a fucking break.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As for the conduct of the PA legal system as it was constituted within the terms of the Oslo accords, they have a far better record of arrest and trial of people suspected of commiting crimes against Israelis.

Was Sharon ever actually arrested for his part in Sabra and Shatila? No, instead a toothless judicial inquirey was held, one that found Sharon essentially culbable at the level of being grossly incompetent. But then no criminal charges were brought, for all intents an purposes Sharon was let of scott free and allowed to continue in public life to the point where he is now Prime Minster.


Sharon was not arrested because although found to have some responsibility for permitting the phalange into the camp, all reasonable legalists admit categorically that he did not commit a criminal act. You of course looking for anything to demonize Israel continue to play the "Sharon card". But it's a dud.

BTW, I do note that you forgot to mention the Palestinian method of dealing with alleged informants. Even their own mothers dont recognize them after the Hamas justice system is through with them.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 04 September 2002 06:00 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You suppose! and you believe your supposition is enough to indict an entire judicial system. Give me a fucking break

Give yourself a break, lakesh.

So the news on CBC that the families of bombers get transported to Gaza is a lie?

The reports that the homes of bombers get bulldozed are lies?

Please, feel free to rationalise.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 06:12 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Arch, Arch, Arch, funny I looked all over trying to find where I claimed that the CBC reports were lies. Guess what? Couldn't find a thing.

All I have tried to convey is that, like all democratic countries, Israel has an open, democratic and fair judiciary. The Palestinians who took their case to Israel's Supreme Court did so because they had that right. They were represented by Council and had the benefit of presenting evidence.

The Court did not fully rule in favour of the State or the complainant.

You were not in the Court and I don't think you have seen a copy of the court transcript from which you can make a judgement.

So, I for one, do trust the Israeli Legal system, certainly much more than the legal system of their neighbours or the PA specifically.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 04 September 2002 07:06 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
funny I looked all over trying to find where I claimed that the CBC reports were lies

My, you are a slippery one.

Straight question then, never mind the CBC.

Have homes of bombers' families been bulldozed? Yes or no?

Have family members of bombers been sent to Gaza?
Yes or No?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 04 September 2002 09:31 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What's that Lakesh?

Silence?

Well, for once you aren't lying.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 04 September 2002 10:54 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sharon was not arrested because although found to have some responsibility for permitting the phalange into the camp, all reasonable legalists admit categorically that he did not commit a criminal act.

If I give someone the key to your house, knowing that they have a serious grudge against you, and they use the key in order to get into your house and murder you, that, in almost any well established and balanced legal system would be seen a serious grounds for an prosecution for, at the very least, manslaughter charges, if not conspiracy to commit murder. This is particullarly true if myself and the murderer are known assoiates, with a long history of intimate dealings.

quote:
You of course looking for anything to demonize Israel continue to play the "Sharon card". But it's a dud.

The credibility and life history of the present prime minster of Israel are irrelvant to the politics of the day? You are treetering on the edge of complete senselessness.

quote:
Even their own mothers dont recognize them after the Hamas justice system is through with them.

Vigilante justice conducted by a neo-facist organization is grounds for condeming a whole people I see. Ergo, all of the people of the USA are responsible for the activities of the Ku Klux Klan.

Again utter nonesense.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 10:56 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Arch, the answer is yes. These families also had the opportunity if they so desired to challenge the decision of the IDF in Court. Remember Israel is in a state of war. The very fact that the courts are prepared to hear these cases is much more justice than is afforded say to Afghanis by the Americans, or Chechens by the Russians or indeed to an extent Muslim Americans who have been incarcerated without trial or hearings in the United States.

And BTW, don't be so quick to judge a short silence by me as acquiesence. I too have a life.


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Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 11:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The credibility and life history of the present prime minster of Israel are irrelvant to the politics of the day? You are treetering on the edge of complete senselessness

There you go again making things up. Do you ever quit?

All I said is that no credible international jurist has accepted the fact that Sharon engaged in a criminal act pertaining to the tragic slaughter by the Christian phalange of their Muslim neighbors. You of course along with those who want to continually vilify Israel in any way possible claim otherwise. You are welcome to your extreme minority opinion.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 11:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Vigilante justice conducted by a neo-facist organization is grounds for condeming a whole people I see. Ergo, all of the people of the USA are responsible for the activities of the Ku Klux Klan.


No my friend, this is the sophistry you engage in when it comes to anything to do with Israel. I point out that Arafat, the leader of the PA engages in the illegitimate wholesale murder of his own people without trial. That's not condemning a whole people that is condemning the leader and governmnet it purports to represent.

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goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 04 September 2002 11:10 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Remember Israel is in a state of war.

This is a perfect example of the source of your utter confusion, Lakesh. You want to have your cake and eat it too. On the one hand you judge Palestinians within the parameters of civil law, but then claim any atrocity committed by Israelis as excusable based on the the claim that Israel is at war -- a very suspect analysis, I dare say.

Thus Ze'evi's assassination is murder but Zabri's is an act of war.

Lakesh, your obvious attempts at propoganda, on top of the use of numerous sock-puppets calls into question the underlying agenda that you represent and your reliabilty as an objective voice. You do more to harm the cause you claim to represent, than you do it good. Perhaps you should think about that.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 04 September 2002 11:14 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I point out that Arafat, the leader of the PA engages in the illegitimate wholesale murder of his own people without trial. That's not condemning a whole people that is condemning the leader and governmnet it purports to represent.

One minute you talk of Hamas, and the next the PA.

Hamas are not part of the PA, at very best they are Arafat's disloyal opposition. Why bother to try an equate the two when you know this is the fact. Why don't you peddle your twaddle among the gullible?

Is sophistry your new word for the week?


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 11:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
your obvious attempts at propoganda, on top of the use of numerous sock-puppets calls into question the underlying agenda that you represent and your reliabilty as an objective voice
My OBJECTIVITY...LOL..that is a major laugh. I suppose you consider yourself a realist, objective and certainly not a propagandist huh? If you do take a vacation.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 September 2002 11:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Is sophistry your new word for the week?


It just fits you so well

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 04 September 2002 11:44 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
My OBJECTIVITY...LOL..that is a major laugh. I suppose you consider yourself a realist, objective and certainly not a propagandist huh? If you do take a vacation.

Yes, this is possible, the fact that I consider my dialogue with you propoganda I clearly admit. I have admitted this more than once. But that is a key difference between you and I, I can freely admit what I am doing.

I call it dialogue for lack of a better word, since it is patently oxymoronic to have a dialogue with a partner who refuses to listen, even slightly, or even respond to the substance of what is being said.

More disturbing is your use of a multitude of cyber-personalities to elucidate your position. I stick with one pseudonym. Yours have even been known to argue with each other. It is bizarre.

Do you think you are being clever?

Despite the 'agitation and propoganda' aspect of my posts, everything I say is based on what I feel is an objective analysis -- furthermore, other than the fact that half of my family is Jewish, I have no stake in the issue. I am not an Arab, nor am I a Muslim, etc. From a sociological standpoint, I have no reason to be biased.

This is clearly not the case for you, as you feel completely beholden to Israel, through some kind of absurd and misdirected sense of religious patriotism, the very same patriotism that I believe is the source of the vile attack upon the human rights of Palestinians, that is being perpetrated in the name of Israel.

Some people call this particullar brand of patriotism Zionism, I call it facism.

PS: The 'sophists' were a series of straw men created by Socrates as easy victims for his logical conudrums. You too argue with the shadows of your own mind.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 September 2002 12:42 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I call it dialogue for lack of a better word, since it is patently oxymoronic to have a dialogue with a partner who refuses to listen, even slightly, or even respond to the substance of what is being said.


A dialogue does not necessarily suggest that one or another must agree. In fact I read what you post and there have been times albeit few, that we have come close to agreement. But for the most part I passionately disagree with your consistant anti-Israel positions and try to argue against them. Clearly, due to the fact that I represent something you detest (a supporter of Israel) you label me a fascist. This is typical of how you operate. I accept it with the understanding that you are simply unable to accept that I have a passionately held position, yes based on my love of Judaism and my commitment to it's values.

I have not simply been a "propagandist" as you put it, I have stated categorically the need for a two-state solution and the necessity to dismantle the majority of the settlements before a comprehensive peace can be reached. You choose to disbelieve me or claim Im obfuscating and have some kind of ulterior motive for doing so. Such is your choice but it clearly negates your bizarre and unthinking critisizm of my positions. Your continual attacks on my progressive position which are, I believe, held by a vast majority of thinking people, is simply extreme.

quote:
Despite the 'agitation and propoganda' aspect of my posts, everything I say is based on what I feel is an objective analysis -- furthermore, other than the fact that half of my family is Jewish, I have no stake in the issue. I am not an Arab, nor am I a Muslim, etc. From a sociological standpoint, I have no reason to be biased.


Now there is the rub.; everything I say is based on what I feel is an objective analysis , what you feel is objective. Well sir I for one DO question your self styled objectivity. The fact that half your family is Jewish means nothing to me.The fact that you are neither Arab nor Muslim means less. There are those who are anti-Isarel for many reasons..even Jews..that's life and while I don't like it I accept it.

Now as for your "sociological" standpoint this is folderol (better than sophistry?). From a "sociological" standpoint, how do you explain neo-Nazi skinheads who never interacted with a Jew or a person of colour? Bias comes in many forms and wears many faces.

quote:
This is clearly not the case for you, as you feel completely beholden to Israel, through some kind of absurd and misdirected sense of religious patriotism, the very same patriotism that I believe is the source of the vile attack upon the human rights of Palestinians, that is being perpetrated in the name of Israel.


The above is nothing short of an unwarranted personal attack. Usually when it comes to a point where the debate degenerates into personal attacks I know that the person so engaged feels he has lost the round.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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