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» babble   » current events   » national news   » Amram Mitzna: Haifa mayor's dramatic rise

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Author Topic: Amram Mitzna: Haifa mayor's dramatic rise
wei-chi
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posted 16 August 2002 05:58 PM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dove ex-General likely new Israeli Labour Party Leader

quote:
In an interview with The Associated Press, Mitzna said that as prime minister, he would resume peace talks with the Palestinians without conditions. If negotiations fail, he said, he would unilaterally draw a security border and uproot dozens of Jewish settlements, while keeping open the offer to return to the table for a final deal.

Mitzna, 57, said he would not shy away from dismantling settlements. "I will definitely do this," Mitzna said during a stroll from Haifa's outdoor market to City Hall.

He compared settlements to "gangrene" that needs to be cut off to heal Israeli society.


Will Israel be ready for the Labour Party by 2003?


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 16 August 2002 06:38 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As Haaretz notes, Mitzna is one of a long line of "savior" ex-generals to entire parliamentary politics. It's not clear that he can get the nomination, and even if he does, at this point, the Likud would still be favored. In addition, there are troubling indications that Mitzna's governing style is similar to Barak's.

Actually, the best thing for the peace camp is if the Labour party dissolved and the new Social Democratic party that has been proposed, which will include Jews and Arabs, takes its place. I don't know if Labour can ever erase the stain that has come from its refusal to leave the Sharon government.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
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posted 16 August 2002 06:42 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Haifa's in the north and where all the manufacturing is located.

As they say in Israel "While Tel Aviv plays, and Jerusalem prays, Haifa works!!"

Neat place, Haifa.


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 16 August 2002 09:53 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
at the old jail in Haifa
i learned how women can be countries.

From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 August 2002 09:11 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Josh, here we have an Israeli with a vision of peace and all you can do is look for a way to critisize him. Let's give him a chance OK?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele
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posted 24 August 2002 09:20 PM      Profile for Mimichekele   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cool.

I know people from Haifa - tough bastards, not scared of anything, used to Jewish-Arab mixing.

He'll give the Right a run for their money. The fact that Bargouti's wife has nice things to say about him is quite revealing.

Slim hope but still KEWL


From: Toronto - but I'd prefer being back in Montreal spotting Nazis | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 August 2002 09:24 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes Mimi I agree. I lived in Haifa for a bit..for a port city it still has a lot of class.

I have seen and heard Mitzna. He is not naive and is a decorated war hero. He does not suffer fools gladly.

That said, he has also been very aggressive on Hamas and homicide/suicide bombers. He has advocated strongly for a hard-hitting approach against the leadership of Hamas so he is no pansy.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele
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posted 24 August 2002 09:33 PM      Profile for Mimichekele   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No problem Mishei.

The Hamas leadership is fair game under international laws of war.

I still think it's cool this guy is emerging as a possible contender. He's "been there", he can do the military thing but he knows there is no long term military solution. A realist - he knows how to make war and he knows how to stop war. Not bad in my book.

Cool.


From: Toronto - but I'd prefer being back in Montreal spotting Nazis | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 24 August 2002 09:59 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He collects posters. He writes on the remains
Of cigarettes his views of his oppressors.
They find a village, they destroy it,
Then they rest upon the grass.
They admit they murdered me,
Then they take me in their arms.

They told me that they'd give me
Twenty thousand francs
For a speech in which I would convince
The French gauchistes that the prisons on the West Bank
Were really only clinics,
That my wounds were really only roses.

...
He would say his last goodbye to me
Every time we met
Since in his mind he pictured me
Following his coffin. Rising from the flowers,
He could ask:
Are you now convinced
That they kill us without reasons?
He would fall in love, and then forget.

But he remembered every lead on every plant
That grew alongside roads
That led from Northern Palestine.

The songs that bid the conqueror farewell,
The songs that bid the conqueror to stay
Resemble one another.

Have you thought of suicide,
Like all your generation?
Like all my generation,
I loved a girl of the sea.
The evening would lie bleeding at her window
For no wound. I stood and called:
The echo came back stone.
Why am I not copper
To bear the weight of this?

Do you remember childhood,
How we snatched our hearts and fingers
From the brown cats that lived outside the door.
We went to shore and called:
The echo came back moon.

At the old jail in Haifa
I learned how women could be countries.


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele
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posted 24 August 2002 10:33 PM      Profile for Mimichekele   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry. Is that beautiful poem written by Mitzna or by someone else? I don't recognize its author

I'm not sure how it relates to the rise of a possible peace candidate Palestinians of the stature of Bargouti's wife seem to trust


From: Toronto - but I'd prefer being back in Montreal spotting Nazis | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 24 August 2002 10:59 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm sorry. Is that beautiful poem written by Mitzna or by someone else? I don't recognize its author

Mahmoud Darwish

quote:
I'm not sure how it relates to the rise of a possible peace candidate Palestinians of the stature of Bargouti's wife seem to trust

nor do i...the poster is a nut.

i like much of what Mitzna has to say, and if he comes into power and makes a positive change, it'll be great. but no one can blame us for being wary. the past is so full of disappointments.


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
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posted 24 August 2002 11:01 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's a fine poem.

Yes, indeed.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: flotsom ]


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele
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posted 24 August 2002 11:03 PM      Profile for Mimichekele   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The same guy from that Red Sea music project mentioned in the other thread?

Odd I didn't recognize him.

But I've only read a few translations in French so that may explain my ignorance.


From: Toronto - but I'd prefer being back in Montreal spotting Nazis | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 24 August 2002 11:39 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That's a fine poem.

Yes, indeed.


how poetic of you!

quote:
But I've only read a few translations in French so that may explain my ignorance.

"Nous sommes les deux peuples les plus idiots de l’Histoire. Nous sommes tellement petits, non acceptés, des Joseph haïs de leurs frères. C’est l’ideologie des Etats et des cartes d’identité qui a créé le conflit. Nos peuples sont nés pour être des sujets de poèmes. Lorsque nous sommes entrés dans le jeu politique, nous avons commencé à nous disputer. Lorsque nous aurons fait la paix, nous rirons de cette étape. Mais une question m’inquiète: Sommes-nous nous-mêmes? Sommes-nous tellement libres de faire des guerres et des paix indépendantes, ou sommes-nous des soldats dans un jeu d’échecs? Il fut un temps où nous avons voulu être des juifs. Maintenant vous voulez être des Palestiniens. Qu’avez-vous à faire des Palestiniens? Vous avez acquis tout l’univers, pourquoi voulez-vous être des Palestiniens?"

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Mohamad Khan ]


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 24 August 2002 11:48 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Nos peuples sont nés pour être des sujets de poèmes.

Pure beauty.

Thanks


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 25 August 2002 08:55 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mishei:

Like you I used to optimistic for peace based on a two-state solution. It seemed within reach and totally rational. But in the last two years I've become more pessimistic because we're not dealing with reasonable people. Rather, there are too many fanatics on each side.

Can you really see Hamas and Islamic Jihad agreeing to abide by a two-state solution?

Can you really see Sharon, Netanyahu, Lieberman and Effian agreeing to give up their precious "Land of Israel?" Can you see a large portion of the settlers going quitely?

I now believe the end of the conflict will be a violent one. Either Israel will try to forceably "transfer" the Palestinians to Jordan, or a country like Saudi Arabia will be taken over by the Bin Laden types and launch a final jihad against Israel.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
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posted 25 August 2002 09:01 AM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Josh's doubt is understandable.

I am hopeful for a peaceful solution, eventually. But I don't see any requirement for the conflict to end at all; peacefully or violently. It can continue just as it is for years yet, decades, generations.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 25 August 2002 09:04 AM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Can you really see Hamas and Islamic Jihad agreeing to abide by a two-state solution?

Well, they're in discussions about stopping suicide attacks in Israel and I have seen one of their spokesman on Channel 4 News explicitly say that they would accept a two-state solution, so I wouldn't be too quick to lay down an absolute definition of what they are or are not prepared to do.


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 26 August 2002 12:59 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Can you really see Hamas and Islamic Jihad agreeing to abide by a two-state solution?

Isalmic Jihad and Hamas, do not exist simply as ideological constructs.

By this I mean, people are not primarily drawn to support them because of their Islamic fundamentalist beliefs. In the main, people are drawn to them because they resist the occupation. To establish any kind of legal structure in the occupied territories, which is not an Israeli imposition, will automatically undermine their basis of support, their ability to find new recruits, and undermine their primary reason for existence.

As in the case of Hizbollah in Lebanon, the end of the occupation will not entirely end their 'military' activties, but will cause them to fizzle out, as with the IRA.

quote:
I now believe the end of the conflict will be a violent one. Either Israel will try to forceably "transfer" the Palestinians to Jordan, or a country like Saudi Arabia will be taken over by the Bin Laden types and launch a final jihad against Israel.

Very dark and depressing ideas, however, not completely beyond imagining.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 September 2002 10:42 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's an optimistic view of a possible future settlement in Israel/Palestine:


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=204323&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=204323

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged

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