Allies and Espionage

Jane’s Intelligence Digest, 3/15/2002

It is rather strange that the US media, with one notable exception, seems to be ignoring what may well prove to be the most explosive story since the 11 September attacks - the alleged break-up of a major Israeli espionage operation in the United States which aimed to infiltrate both the justice and defence departments and which may also have been tracking Al-Qaeda terrorists before the aircraft hijackings took place.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has been quick to dismiss a 4 March report by Intelligence Online, a French web site that specialises in security matters (and expanded on by French daily Le Monde the following day) that US authorities had arrested or deported some 120 Israelis since February 2001 and that the investigation was still continuing. The FBI insists that no Israeli has been charged with espionage, but has agreed that an undisclosed number of Israeli students have been expelled for "immigration violations". Justice Department spokeswoman Susan Dryden dismissed the espionage allegations as "an urban myth that’s been circulating for months..."

If the reports from Paris are correct, it would be the largest known Israeli espionage operation mounted in the USA, the Jewish state’s closest ally and one on which it depends for its survival.

Israel’s intelligence organisations have been spying on the USA and running clandestine operations on US soil since the Jewish state was established.

This has included smuggling an estimated 200 pounds of weapons-grade uranium for its secret nuclear arms programme in the 1960s to widescale industrial espionage, much of it conducted by the highly secret Scientific Liaison Bureau, known by its Hebrew acronym Lakam, which was run by the Israeli Defence Ministry and its equally little-known successor Malmab (the Security Authority for the Ministry of Defence). Indeed, the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of the US Congress, reported in April 1996 that Israel "conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any US ally".

While the sort of operation described by Intelligence Online and Le Monde (if indeed the allegation is true) is unlikely to have caused anywhere near the damage to US security inflicted by navy analyst Jonathan Pollard, an American who was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1987 for providing Israeli intelligence with a mountain of top secret material in 1984-85, it would still be political dynamite which could result in a political backlash against Israel which is finding itself increasingly isolated within the international community...

You don't believe me? Try going to the CAMERA website http://world.std.com/~camera/
or this other one: www.honestreporting.com

for "balanced" coverage of these, and other topics close to the heart of Zionists everywhere.

Another thing; do you really thaink that the Izzy Asper network would let this story see the light of day?

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]

There is a sensationalist air to it, too. For example, the idea that Israeli students have been
dported for "immigration violations" is treated as suspect. Yet, if you look at INS Reports over the past decade, Israeli students are often deported for immigration violations.

So, we have an unproven report, denied by the US government, from a source of unknown reliability.

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This isn't news because these allegations are nothing but anti-Semitism.

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So, you are saying that Jews, Israel, the policies of Israel, the government of Israel and its agencies are indivisible, and therefore it is impossible to question their activities without being anti-semetic?

I find it telling that there was nothing in any other media outlets about the story, or the possibility that Fox was duped into running an anti-Israel piece.

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So, we have an unproven report, denied by the US government, from a source of unknown reliability.

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So, we have an unproven report, denied by the US government, from a source of unknown reliability.

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Surely, the point was not the substance but the question itself, and why the story is not being pursued, except at the periphery of the media.

No serious person thinks that Moussad, actually directed 9/11. It is illogical to do so because it would have been a disaster for Israel if they were discovered.

But it is not impossible that they had foreknowledge, which is the question that has been raised. Organizations such as Al Queda, and militant Muslim organizations are their primary focus, and they do spy -- it is their job!.

So, why is it so impossible that they were spying on the people who are alleged to have hijacked the planes on 9/11? Far less substantiated allegations are floated as news all the time and reported based on undisclosed sources, leaks and anonymous government officials.

For instance, President Hosni Mubarak was quoted as saying that he, based on Egyptian intelligence, 'warned' the US that something would happen, on or around 9/11, but that he was 'surprised' by the scope of the attack.

A lot of these leads (to many to count) have never been pursued dilligently around the events of 9/11, instead we have had the full-on hunt for Osama since the very beginning.

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I think my questions are valid, lets see if he can answer him. I think even you know DrC that this guy has got some serious problems.

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The only serious problem I see is you getting your panties in a knot and employing the slippery-slope fallacy.

Only last week this Board was witness to the anti-Semitic canard of Holocaust Denial on this very sight. What was more than strange is that it finally took one person to ask the entire Board what it could be thinking to engage in what is clearly racist rhetoric. Thankfully the administrators of this site woke and up shut down this particular topic. Thank you.

And now, once again, we have this unhealthy focus on Jews. Why?

In a world where mad-men can fly jet planes into skyscrapers, why must anything Jewish be connected with it.

Can you not see it? It's but a new wrinlkle, a new page for the 21st century's version of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". Blame the Jews.

The problem is that anytime anyone, ever raises even the slightest critcism of Israel we are identified as anti-semites.

I even state that the President of Egypt says that he had intelligence in advance, yet no-one acccuses me of being anti-Arab.

The point must be made that Sharon, and Israel do not represent all Jews everywhere, and to critique either is not essentially anti-semetic. Nor is unhealthy to talk about Jews in relationship to Israel because Israel itself claims that it is a Jewish state, first and foremost.

And to this point I will say that my g-mother and g-father, on my fathers side, were Jewish, not Jewish enough to be a citizens of Israel but Jewish enough for Dachau. An interesting conundrum, that.

In fact Markbo, I believe that the US should cease military support for Israel until it withdraws from the West Bank and Gaza, as per UN resolutions, I think that would be fair application of sanctions.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]

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So, you are saying that Jews, Israel, the policies of Israel, the government of Israel and its agencies are indivisible, and therefore it is impossible to question their activities without
being anti-semitic?

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Nope.

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The problem is that anytime anyone, ever raises even the slightest critcism of Israel we areidentified as anti semites.

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So many of us who wholehartedly supported the new State of Israel in the 50's 60/s 70's etc now find ourselves being labeled as such. I could comment on anything else, even the tragedies that have beset various African countries with impumity. But Israel is untouchable; don't touch that subject. I say this because I have many friends that are Jews. I do not know a single compatriot of arab origin. It is a line that we don't cross. Too bad.

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GGINT are you now just simply trying to bash Israel? Do you want to see them lose U.S. support and be driven into the see by Arab countries??? Do you figure that this should be the penalty for espionage???

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Israel is a STATE- another monster created a)by the U.S., for the convenience of artificially imposing a clearly western nation in the middle east, obviously an oil region, after b) beign initially created by zionists, a sub-group within the ranks of zionism with enormously suspect motives who propituously gained the upper hand at the end of world war 2 in the shadow of the shoah (holocaust),who incedently collaberated with the nazis at one point during the war, which resulted in the death of a number of jews.

The state of israel is a racist state which makes me ashamed to be jewish.

On the other hand, anti-semites, racists, white supremists are certainly alive and well, and of course quite ready to gain milage from the above in their own seedy little way- a fact which in itself doesn't negate what i have belatedly come to believe to be the truth of the above from reviewing facts which are enormously counter to those with which i was presented growing up, and from working (in an anti-racist, anti-imperialist group) with many Palestinians & other arabs who i consider to be reasonable and knowlegable people

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What makes you so sure every Arab country would instantly try to "drive Israel into the sea" when they tried the same thing in 1973 and got fought to a draw?

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Look DrC just because GGINT is the enemy of your enemy (the U.S.) does not make this guy your friend.

Problem with your statement is that it implies that somehow you'd like to see a fairer fight with more Israeli casualties. I know thats not what your saying but taking away Israeli support will not solve the problems in the middle east any more than taking away support for the plight of the Palestinian people.

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The problem is that anytime anyone, ever raises even the slightest critcism of Israel we are identified as anti-semites.

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No only when people like you do it with no constructive purpose in mind. You want to offer better ways to deal with these issues, fine. But your sole purpos is simply trying to stir up animosity towards Israel and the U.S. Thats what sets you apart.

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The point must be made that Sharon, and Israel do not represent all Jews everywhere,

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And you do?????

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and to critique either is not essentially anti-semetic. Nor is unhealthy to talk about Jews in relationship to Israel because Israel itself claims that it is a Jewish state, first and foremost.

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it is anti semetic when its sole purpose is to stir up hatred and anger. You offer nothing constructive on these threads at all. Simply criticisms.

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In fact Markbo, I believe that the US should cease military support for Israel until it withdraws from the West Bank and Gaza, as per UN resolutions, I think that would be fair application of sanctions

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And if Israel does not comply and with the U.S. and war breaks out in the middle east then so be it. Leave Israel more vulnerable making an attack on them more likely. I'm not saying that Israeli policies are perfect but there no worse than policies of some arab countries. Trying to weaken Israel for its enemies is no answer, especially when your dealing with a nuclear power.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Markbo ]

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Maybe it's just me, but lately it seems that this Board has had a strange preoccupation with things Jewish and Israel.
Only last week this Board was witness to the anti-Semitic canard of Holocaust Denial on this very sight. What was more than strange is that it finally took one person to ask the entire Board what it could be thinking to engage in what is clearly racist rhetoric. Thankfully the administrators of this site woke and up shut down this particular topic.

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Well, 9/11 and continuing world events happen to have a lot to do with Isreal, so I don't think it's particularly mysterious or suspicious that Isreal gets mentioned quite a bit. It would be mysterious and suspicious if it weren't.

As for the Holocaust Denial, I think when the facts are on your side, you shouldn't fear-- but relish-- the opportunity to debunk the anti-semites, as I do. Trinity said it best, let the light of reason send the creepy crawlies that live in the dark scurrying.

I'm not bothering to read the above story. There's so much conspiracy theory stuff coming out about 9/11 now that I'm not going to waste my time until it gets a little higher into the radar scope, if it ever does. Unfortunately, some ideas, like Holocaust Denial get enough publicity that time and care has to be taken to de-bunk it. At a certain point fringe ideas can be safely ignored. In fact, by jumping too quickly to the attack, you end up giving them free and unwarranted publicity. Unfortunately, the dellusional or outright deceptive proponents of Holocaust Denial were able to manage their own publicity quite well, and as a result warrant fervent engagement and de-bunking whenever it rears it's ugly head. I take my cue on this from Michael Schermer, who discusses this very issue at length in his book "Why People Believe Wierd Things", which also contains one of the better de-bunkings of "Holocaust Denial."

It's arguable about when an idea should be engaged in debate. For now, I'm tempted to see it for the most part your way. However, I wouldn't be so stridently secure that such ideas should never be debated.

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What makes you so sure every Arab country would instantly try to "drive Israel into the sea" when they tried the same thing in 1973 and got fought to a draw?
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Look DrC just because GGINT is the enemy of your enemy (the U.S.) does not make this guy your friend.

Problem with your statement is that it implies that somehow you'd like to see a fairer fight with more Israeli casualties. I know thats not what your saying but taking away Israeli support will not solve the problems in the middle east any more than taking away support for the plight of the Palestinian people.

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You didn't answer my question at all. You veered off onto some tangent which has almost no relevance to what I asked.

I'll ask it again, and what I'm asking is what makes you think the Arab countries would instantly try to overrun Israel the second subsidies stop flowing from the US?

In case you had cotton on your eyes the first time, I'll reprint it here: "The Arabs tried running Israel into the sea in 1973 and were fought to a draw."

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I'll ask it again, and what I'm asking is what makes you think the Arab countries would instantly try to overrun Israel the second subsidies stop flowing from the US?

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I believe that groups inside the arab countries like Hamas or Hezbollah would step up attacks on a weakened or more vulnerable Israel. They would take the U.S. withdrawal of support as condoning their attacks just as you claim Iraq did with Kuwait.

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"The Arabs tried running Israel into the sea in 1973 and were fought to a draw."

Concept: They tried it once, it didn't work. What makes you think they'd be any more successful just because the USA drops subsidies?

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The arsenal of weapons they possess as well as the strategy of terrorism is vastly different than in 1973. THey have perfected the art of suicide bombing, in fact they are starting to soak their bombs in pesticides to kill those that used to be only wounded. They have better missiles to carry weapons of mass destruction. And any cuts to Israeli military spending would give a perception that Israel has weakened capacity to retaliate against these attacks. As well as the gesture of the U.S. withdrawal of support appear as though we are less ready to defend Israel against attack.

I hope my answer was clear enough for you.

You may want to answer this, why would you think that they would refrain from attack because they lost 29 years ago? If they've learned their lesson why do they still resort to violence to get their point across.

Answer: because both sides in this conflict will resort to whatever violence is necessary to achieve their goals. They always have and they always will. You know it, I know it, Everybody knows it. We watch it everyday.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Markbo ]

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This is the last refuge of the anti-Semite, haul out your Jewish credentials. Of course Israel can be critisized. But this critisizm should be in the context of reality and not myth-mongering.

And for those that insist on labeling Israel a racist state, clearly you lose any credibility as a thinker.

I always have to wonder about my friends that are so far left they may as well be RIGHT. If Israel is a racist state what does that make , Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon,to name but a few of Israel's more stalwart neighbours, bastions of democracy and freedom?

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GGINT, if the US were to cease support to Israel, it would have to cease support to Egypt.

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Because, you see, though this isn't made obvious in the mind of the typical cynic, the US donates TWO BILLION DOLLARS per year to Egypt as well.
I invite all to spin conspiracy theories about who the US is protecting by donating Israel caliber cash to Egypt. The only thing I can thing of is 'promoting stability.' But then, you are giving the Arabs as much credit as a family of gerbils. Give them some wood chips and lettuce and they won't blow us up. Seriously, use your spinning skills and wow me.

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This is the last refuge of the anti-Semite, haul out your Jewish credentials. Of course Israel can be critisized. But this critisizm should be in the context of reality and not myth-mongering.

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No one argues that Israel's neighbours are any less racist or any more democratic. But they are not immediately involved in an on-going war against a large proportion of their civilian population.

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the only democracy in the neighborhood

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And for those that insist on labeling Israel a racist state, clearly you lose any credibility as a thinker.

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I think Israel is clearly a "racist" state. The whole idea of it being a state open only to Jews, where only Jews can participate politically is racist. I don't see how this fact can be side stepped. The whole religious justification for Israel, that it is the "promised land" for God's "chosen people" is inherantly racist.

Be that as it may, while some policies are reminicent of Aparthied in Sout Africa, it is not nearly so viscious and complete, and is not a fair comparisson without some caveats.

Israel does allow Arabic Israeli citizens to participate in the democratic system. Israel does allow Arabic Israeli citizens the same services and rights that Jewish Israeli citizens enjoy. One might argue over the quality of those enjoyments, but in principle, and practice there is a difference between Israel and the old South African Regime.

Where it starts to resemble aparthied is in the occupied territories. By keeping them as part of Israel proper, but not recognizing the occupants of those territories as citizens, Israel sets itself up as a totalitarian entity in this respect. They rule by "might is right", and it's not possible to distinguish between "good guys and bad guys"-- other than the good guys are the ones who happen to be the mightiest. For the moment.

Are the other states surrounding Israel racist? I don't think there's any doubt about that. Many are clearly worse. The Turkish treatment of Kurds, not to mention the Iraqi treatment of Kurds is a prime example, and there are many others. Syria is not a nation that has yet embraced democracy, and niether is Saudi Arabia.

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No one argues that Israel's neighbours are any less racist or any more democratic. But they are not immediately involved in an on-going war against a large proportion of their civilian population

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Not true, unfortunately, in fact much of the Two Billiion dollars that CB talks about being sent to Egypt is earmarked for repressing revolutionary elements in Egypt. Also, Turkey (also funded by the US government), used its F-16's to attack Kurdish PPK guerrillas inside Iraq, in the northern no-fly zone, just yesterday. (Reuters, Sat Mar 23, 4:24 PM ET ) - "Warplanes have hammered Turkish Kurdish guerrilla encampments in northern Iraq, killing about 25 rebels...." As well, Algeria is in the midst of a war with it own Islamic rebellion.

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GGINT, if the US were to cease support to Israel, it would have to cease support to Egypt. Because, you see, though this isn't made obvious in the mind of the typical cynic, the US donates TWO BILLION DOLLARS per year to Egypt as well.

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In fact nased on what i observed above cutting Mubarak off would be a good idea, as well. However, it shoudl be noted that Israel has the bomb.

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This is the last refuge of the anti-Semite, haul out your Jewish credentials.

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Ahhh, yes the old self-haters line....

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Tommy_Paine: Where it starts to resemble aparthied is in the occupied territories. By keeping them as part of Israel proper, but not recognizing the occupants of those territories as citizens, Israel sets itself up as a totalitarian entity in this respect. They rule by "might is right", and it's not possible to distinguish between "good guys and bad guys"-- other than the good guys are the ones who happen to be the mightiest. For the moment
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No one including, I believe, the people of Israel wish continued occupation of the Palestinians. Indeed, former Prime Minister Barak offered Arafat 98% of the West Bank including East Jerusalem as a capital with sovereignty (in a complicated procedure I agree) over the Temple Mount. There it was a proposal for a sovereign Palestinian state.

Now, some argue that the State would not be contiguous ...true, but atleast get the STATE and then negotiate from a position of sovereignty.

No, not Mr. Arafat...his answer was to reject this outright and commit the Palestinian people to a terrorist war agaist Israelis who eat in resterants, or go shopping or drive down a country road.

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That said, the jews have given western society a lot more than Muslems. Where is the Muslem equivalent of Mt. Sinai hospital?

Jews, through their clearly superiour work ethic and business acumen now occupy the highest business positions and dominate the highest paying jobs in the country. The richest most exclusive neighbourhoods in Canada are dominated by jewish households. They pay a tremendous amount of tax, they run our businesses, they are our doctors, dentists, lawyers and accountants.

Without them our society would crumble.

Someday Muslems may rise to be as important to our society and as trustworthy as Jews have proven themselves to be.

At least I hope so.

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Peaches ]

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That said, the jews have given western society a lot more than Muslems. Where is the Muslem equivalent of Mt. Sinai hospital?

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Algebra and our numbering system. Without them we wouldn't have calculus or engineering - such as what it takes to build hospitals.

Still, I believe peace is a possibility if the Israelis could only see the view of the Palestinians in so far as what is fair and just, and likewise, that the Palestinians could only see the view of the Israelis in terms of what is fair and just.

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Someday Muslems may rise to be as important to our society and as trustworthy as Jews have proven themselves to be.

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Jews, through their clearly superiour work ethic and business acumen now occupy the highest business positions and dominate the highest paying jobs in the country. The richest most exclusive neighbourhoods in Canada are dominated by jewish households. They pay a tremendous amount of tax, they run our businesses, they are our doctors, dentists, lawyers and accountants.

Without them our society would crumble.

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Astounding. The old Jews-are-behind-everything, that's-why-they've-got-all-the-coin canard, except this time given a positive spin and used in the service of anti-Muslim prejudice.

The proof of this is seen in how quickly the responses flowed in seeking to downplay any positive remarks made about Jews and replace them with positive comments about Muslems - as if the two were mutually exclusive.

I believe that all races have the potential to contribute positively to Canada. I also believe that the Jewish race have set many standards for other groups to aspire to with respect to charitable, ecomomic, professional and business contributions.

Can I say that here without being called a racist?

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Peaches ]

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The proof of this is seen in how quickly the responses flowed in seeking to downplay anypositive remarks made about Jews and replace them with positive comments about Muslems

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Second, that

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Jews, through their clearly superiour work ethic and business acumen now occupy the highest business positions and dominate the highest paying jobs in the country. The richest most exclusive neighbourhoods in Canada are dominated by jewish households. They pay a tremendous amount of tax, they run our businesses, they are our doctors, dentists, lawyers and accountants.

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I believe that all races have the potential to contribute positively to Canada. I also believe that the Jewish race have set many standards for other groups to aspire to with respect to charitable, ecomomic, professional and business contributions.

Can I say that here without being called a racist?

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Considering that the concept of race was invented by 18-century Europeans of the type we would now call racists, my short answer would be: no.

There is no such thing as the Jewish race, any more than there is such a thing as the Muslim or Christian race. Or, for that matter, the black or white race. (I know, these things have some social, though no scientific meaning; but these are not social meanings we should encourage or support by speaking and thinking in race-based categories).

My longer answer would be: if you were to substitute "members of all ethnic and religious groups" for "all races" in your statement above, I could accept it.

Except...

From your previous comments, I suspect you tend to characterize individuals on the basis of their membership in said ethnic or religious groups. You talk like someone who believes that, if Jews (for example) happen to be wealthy, it has something to do with their being Jews. Is that so?

If it is, then I fear that there is something disingenuous about your statement, and a mere substitution of words would not satisfy me, for one.

Edited to add: wait just a blame minute, how'd I miss this little gem:

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Also, there are a lot of people here who seem rather eager to discredit Jews or at least discount their contribution to our civilization here in Canada.

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No-one's done any such fool thing. What I question is the relevance of a person's Jewishness, or non-Jewishness, to what they've contributed to Canada.

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]

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I believe that all races have the potential to contribute positively to Canada.

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I believe that all people have the potential to contribute positively to Canada. What does race, religion or ethnic group have to do with it?

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Can I say that here without being called a racist?

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I don't know. I thought that promoting stereotypes about ethnic groups is one of the definitions of racism and bigotry. If it isn't racism, then what is? Just because you're saying something positive about one group doesn't make it less prejudiced. Even Archie Bunker thought the Jews were smart, and he wanted a Jewish lawyer.

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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Jews, through their clearly superiour work ethic and business acumen now occupy the highest business positions and dominate the highest paying jobs in the country. The richest most exclusive neighbourhoods in Canada are dominated by jewish households. They pay a tremendous amount of tax, they run our businesses, they are our doctors, dentists, lawyers and accountants."

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Oh wait a minute, this isn't about the truth is it? This is about moulding thought and speech to exclude any truth that you find offensive, and silencing those who dare speak those offensive truths with cries of 'bigotry'. THAT's what this is about.

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Peaches ]

I know it is our human frailty that we must always attempt to simplify complex issues in order to better understand them, but when we do this, we stereotype, we label, we misinform and, frequently, we damage each other. What is this compulsion to state "so-and-so is better than such-and-such" or "my language is more expressive than yours" or "my people are better artists than your people".

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I believe that all races have the potential to contribute positively to Canada. I also believe that the Jewish race have set many standards for other groups to aspire to with respect to charitable, ecomomic, professional and business contributions.

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'lance already tackled this, but I got so mad I had to stick my oar in.

Judaism is not, not, NOT a race! It's a religion, damnit.

Peaches, you agreed to respect our policy. I'm simply holding you to it. If you don't understand the dynamics of racism, perhaps you should take time off the board and study up.

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: judym ]

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Reasons for the US opposition to the measure were not immediately known.

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We fully concur with the assessment of the security situation in Somalia based upon the recommendations of the UN HQS inter-agency mission and their recommendation not to re-establish the peacebuilding office in Mogadishu at this time. As the members recall, the inter-agency composition of the UN mission was intended to ensure that those UN departments responsible for conducting operations in Somalia would have an opportunity to evaluate the security situation on the ground from the perspective of their humanitarian and political operational requirements. Those officials contributed to the final assessment contained in the report. We believe that those UN departments, in conjunction with UN security officials, are best suited to make a judgement concerning the UN presence in Somalia.

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There is no such thing as the Jewish race, any more than there is such a thing as the Muslim or Christian race. Or, for that matter, the black or white race. (I know, these things have some social, though no scientific meaning; but these are not social meanings we should encourage or support by speaking and thinking in race-based categories).

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‘lance, while I quite agree, I’m conflicted here. The social meaning, humans being what they are, remains far more powerful in everyday life than the scientific fact you note. A black-white couple, for example, will undoubtedly face real obstacles that other homogeneous unions would not. It seems Social trumps Science and thus cannot be dismissed as either wrong or irrelevant (although it should be). To put a finer point on it: In the US, from Insurance to Health Care, to University or Job application; one is forced to declare a “race” affiliation. Even our income and sales taxes have blunt racial distinctions. And most Federal Funding Grants have strict rules as to race.

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Now, some argue that the State would not be contiguous ...true, but at least get the STATE and then negotiate from a position of sovereignty.

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The problem with this is that, in the real world of politics, once you define the territory of a 'state,' it becomes nigh-on-impossible to redefine it. To accept the 'Swiss Cheese' territory offered, would be tantamont to turning the WB into a series of Bantustans bisected by Israeli 'settler' roads, more or less permanently.

Sure, Labour offered this but Likud took it away. It is the old good cop/bad cop routine that the Labour and Likud parties of Israel have been playing with the Palestinians since Ben Gurion.

'Oh no! We can't repatriate the Palestinian refugees! Not because we 'liberal' Israelis don't want to, but because the political nuances of our democracy (sic) in Israel won't allow it!' (Shrugs and walks away.)

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...you may certainly convert to Judaism. Judaism bars no one from conversion so your claim that Israel/Judaism is racist against you as a result of religious law is patent nonsense.

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I was so hoping you'd say that, it was so predictable! The point is that Citizenship (for some) based a singular cultural and religious heritage is religious bigotry. The very same kind of religious bigotry that was applied when Poland retracted citizenship from Polish expatriate Jews living in Germany, in '38, so that the Gestapo could pick them up.

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Judaism is not, not, NOT a race! It's a religion, damnit.

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I must admit that to call it 'racism' is technically incorrect as people have so vehemently pointed out. But I have to ask: Why is it that we call the Nazi campaign against Jews racism, and then bicker about definition when it comes to Israel?

Furthermore it was Lakesh who introduced the topic as racism, when she/he critiqued the original posting in this thread, one which I might add, did not even mention the 'religious-seperatist' nature of Israel. She/he branded me an anti-semite just for mentioning Israel in the same breath as 9/11.

Sometimes it seems that it is just a matter of convenience for some, to define Jews as a race (which I would be included in) when talking about crimes against Jews, but then to backtrack and define Judaism in terms of its ethical/cultural/religious traditions (which I am not included in because I am an atheist) when justifying the existence of Israel.

In fact the far right makes simmilar distinctions about ethical/cultural/religious traditions when talking about sending the 'black people' back to Africa, they claim it is not racism either it is, in their words: a 'seperate but equal' relationship.

But I have to admit Lakesh's strategy has been very effective (subconciously?). In fact some of the posts in this thread have veered into realms that could only be described a bizzare.

As opposed to having a purely secular agrument about what MOSSAD, and presumably other intelligence agencies (such as the CIA and the FBI) did and did not know in advance about 9/11, she/he has succeeded in turning it into a debate focussed on religious and racial issues -- one in which all things Israeli are sacred and untouchable for fear of racism or religious bigotry.

She/he has torpedoed any serious analysis of the failure of the US intelligence service and its allies (MOSSAD among others) to protect the people of the United States of America from grievous harm.

I assume this is because in doing so we would uncover a lot of uncomfortable truths about summary executions, assassinations, covert operations, smear campaigns and spying conducted by Israel in the name of Judaism, and she/he(subconciously?) knows it.

A graphic and gross example of an Israeli execution of an unarmed Palestinian Prisoner, courtesy of BBC.

In her own words:

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And now, once again, we have this unhealthy focus on Jews. Why?

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Because you raised it! But I can't agree more with the last sentiment...

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Can we move on please?

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Right! Lets, talk about what happened on 9/11.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]

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...Arafat, first and foremost, remains a terrorist bent on the total destruction of the state of Israel. There can be no other rational explanation

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Again the old 'destruction of the Israeli' line. What is never mentioned is that this is a hyperbole, based on the old PLO line states that Israel should end its existence as a 'Jewish' state, and that there should be 'one' state that includes all people as equals. This is interpreted by Zionists to mean the destruction of the state of Israel because it attacks Israels 'Jewish' nature. In doing this they always forget to add the key point, which is that the PLO believes that the area of Israel today, and the WB and Gaza should be one unified 'secular' state, where Jews, Christians and Muslims live equally under the law.

This has been changed of late to the PLO line of two seperate states.

Rebecca

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Anyway, sorry to get so off topic. I think the reason that the Israeli espionage thing didn't make the news is because it isn't news. Everyone spies on everyone else. It's what states do ferchrissakes. Whether the allegedly expelled Israelis knew anything about 9/11 is pure speculation and probably a big load of conspiracy theory shite.

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No You are actually right on topic! Excellent! This material did in fact make the news, and in fact MSNBC spiked the web pages with this information on it, within a week -- The standard policy is to keep web pages up for a month or more.

But let us not forget that foreign policy is being conducted in this country on the basis of the idea that a bearded fellow, with very strong religious convictions, co-ordinated a multiple hijacking of aircraft in the USA using a satelite phone while living in a cave in Afghanistan!

This seems also to be something of a grand conspiracy theory, as well. Does it not?

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]

That said, you failed to comment and why you did not feel the following comment was or was not stereotyping:

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Please also note that Peaches' prejudice was flagged by our moderator in another thread.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: judym ]

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: DrConway ]

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My my my, touchy aren't we. Goodgoditstrue, I wish I could be more charitable towards your agenda but the more I read the more Im convinced of your animus.

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