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Author Topic: canadian man to get free plastic surgery...
Croesus_Krept
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posted 12 February 2002 11:49 AM      Profile for Croesus_Krept   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dig deep -- you pathetic weasels...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&u=/nm/20020212/od_nm/prison_dc_2


From: Taiwan | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 12 February 2002 11:59 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why does it cost so much (is always my question)?

I'm not competent to judge the state of this guy's mind, or whether this really would be part of an effective therapy. But in hot-button wrangles over the costs of public medicine, I always wish people could occasionally turn to the real source of the costs -- which is the costs themselves! -- and wonder why they're so high.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 February 2002 12:02 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Medical equipment, particularly high-tech medical equipment which involves lasers, is very expensive for doctors to purchase.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 February 2002 12:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But why???
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 February 2002 12:17 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In Canada, the situation effectively exists of a monopsony - that is, a single buyer for a product or service.

The suppliers are likely niche-suppliers as well - that is, there are not a great number of firms competing for business, unlike in the situation with regard to, oh, computer motherboards, to use an example.

In the "motherboard market", there are several highly competitive manufacturers that all attempt to compete as best as they can for the dollars of a large number of buyers.

In this setup, prices cannot be permitted to escalate or buyers will end up switching to other sellers.

However, in the "health care capital product market", there is virtually a monopsony - that is, one buyer only. Also, because of this and the specialized nature of the equipment, there is probably not much competition among the sellers.

Normally in a monopsony, the buyer has a lot of power, since the buyer can choose whatever supplier he/she/it wants, and tough noogies to anybody else.

But in the health care situation, you have a government composed of people who may or may not understand the cost structure of the firms they deal with and how much, if there is, of a markup is getting added onto the sale price of, say, an MRI machine.

On the seller side, the only buyer is the government, and so they can set the price if the buyer doesn't object, and the buyer often doesn't object. Then, too, they can ONLY sell to the government, which has a limited desire for such machines, and therefore R&D budgets take a long time to recoup.

These two factors combine to embed a fairly inflationary trend in health care capital budget costs, since the "newer, better" machine always has to cost more, right?

Solution: Expropriate or buy out the manufacturers and make the whole shebang into a Crown Corporation which operates on a cost-recovery basis alone.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 February 2002 12:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
DrC, I am glad to read such an answer -- it seems to me at least half of the answer I wanted but can never get. The rest of the answer would be the "intellectual property" scam, which would deal with the costs at at-cost level.

The medical-machine corpses, like the evil pharmaceutical companies, like to pretend that the high cost of their products has something to do with expensive R&D -- except this is patently obviously nonsense, after the prototypes are developed. Much of what these corpses are doing is pure cookie-cutter stuff, it has to be.

But do you hear any of our noisy medicare commissions asking pointed questions about the "spiralling costs" of our health-care system at that level?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 February 2002 12:30 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As far as I know the big focus is on drug costs - which is a little misleading, since not all drugs are paid for by the government. But this is another contributing factor anyhow, since there's fairly extensive coverage for seniors and as one ages, one's health costs increase fairly dramatically. BC tried to solve this with a requirement to doctors to prescribe generics first unless a good medical basis could be found for prescribing a brand-name instead.

Well, of course the pharmaceutical companies were having none of that, and they shat all over the government.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 12 February 2002 12:49 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Laser tattoo removal is very expensive, and I think it mainly has to do with the cost of the laser unit involved, which is usually something like $500,000. In this case, though, it's probably cheaper than keeping this loser in protective solitary confinement for the rest of his sentence.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Croesus_Krept
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posted 12 February 2002 01:14 PM      Profile for Croesus_Krept   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
it seems that the focus in canada, for those of you keen to keep everyone in the black ink, ( everybody knows Canada is the land of welfare justice... ) seems to be the lowest-cost alternative. Now in my experience, the lowest-cost is not necessarily the most satisfying. Okay, choose to disagree. Perhaps we ought to do it like they do in Oklahoma, with a tuna tin lid...


daaaaarrrrrrreeeeeeeeyaaaaaatospitonme...

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Croesus_Krept ]


From: Taiwan | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 12 February 2002 02:08 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WE must break the monopoly these producers have on medical equipment. I think there are some long-term contracts involved with this.

Pop-quiz, how much does a standard hospital stretcher cost?


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 February 2002 02:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmmn -- I bet it's as much as ... I'm trying to remember the U.S. Army scandal over appropriations for some very basic stuff -- like toilets, was it? Anyone remember?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 12 February 2002 02:57 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know if expropriation is really a solution because I don't suppose that anything like a majority of the medical equipment we use is produced in Canada. What does make sense is more cooperative purchasing of equipment. A contract for ten MRI units is going to be cheaper per unit than ten one-unit contracts. Not that this has much to do with tattoo removals, which are just about the last thing, next to facelifts and botox injections we ought to be covering in public health care.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 February 2002 02:59 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
$600 toilets and $20 hammers.

Or was that $5000 toilets and $200 hammers? I forget, but yeah, the amounts were insane.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 12 February 2002 03:17 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Last I heard, from my ER nurse mother, a stretcher for a Canadian Hospital costs $10 000

Yes, that was ten-thousand dollars.

That's just a darn stretcher!!!!

And we're wondering why we have spiralling costs....


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rabid Gerbil
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posted 12 February 2002 03:22 PM      Profile for Rabid Gerbil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
$4,000 to remove a swastika tatoo with lasers eh?

For $2,000, I'll do it with sandpaper.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 12 February 2002 03:27 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really don't have a problem with $4,000 going to remove this swastika tattoo. Chalk it up to the costs of rehabilitation. Yes it's easier, and cheaper to punish in the prison system, but if this guy has truly come around, and renounced his racist beliefs, then it's good value for the money in terms of what society is going to get out of it.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rabid Gerbil
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posted 12 February 2002 03:48 PM      Profile for Rabid Gerbil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would support paying for the removal if he replaced it with an eight inch star of David tatoo.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Croesus_Krept
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posted 12 February 2002 09:03 PM      Profile for Croesus_Krept   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Since I started it, I'll end it... Obviously, they should make this guy pay for the removal himself! He can work it off, so to speak...

Sigh, if I could just get around these police girls and find the willing and able babes !!!

dcccccrrrreeeeeaaasssssusssss


From: Taiwan | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 12 February 2002 09:51 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll agree with sheep on this one. It's a very good value for the buck and I will meet Croesus_Krept half way in saying that if the guy ends up back in the slammer then he will have to work off the costs in prison wages.

In the dental industry which I work you could take a very simple tool such as a stainless steel wax spatula which can be puchased at any art supply outlet for about $5.00. But if you put the word "dental", in front of the word "spatula", then what you have is a "dental spatula" which is then worth $50.00.


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 12 February 2002 11:48 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why couldn't we just spend far less (couple of hundred) further tattoo over the swastika to make a black square???

Then the guy would have a reminder of his stupidity that he could pay to remove himself later.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
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posted 13 February 2002 12:06 AM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, how big is the tattoo? I knew a tattoo shop that would cover up Nazi or White Power tattoos for free if the person didn't believe in that crap any more.

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]


From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 13 February 2002 01:46 AM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Probably be cheeper if they just payed someone to paint over it in skin colour and then draw a couple small tatoos over it to hide the lines. Usually free plastic surgery is used to correct defects, deformities and damage.

I think the government does pay a bit for drugs to lower the prices, but the price is still high enough to be a deterent. I think the sole purpose of walkins is so that people can get their amoxicilan without missing any time off work. I used to get strep throat 2 or 3 times every winter and the cost added up! And add on to that the kid's ear infections.


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chickenbum
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posted 13 February 2002 10:57 AM      Profile for Chickenbum     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Medical equipment is expensive because all the itty-bitty little pieces in it are expensive, especially the lasers. And yes, they are extremely expensive and difficult to manufacture due to the sensitive components and extreme tolerancing of the design..they are not just cookie cutter as someone implied. And "making a Crown Corporation" i.e. nationalizing many hundreds of specialists (and their suppliers, because hey, they're expensive too!), would pretty much kill innovation and inflate bureaucratic waste.
From: happily functioning in society | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 February 2002 11:25 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If the anecdotal report about the stretcher is right, then it sounds like Canada has its own "health industry" utterly dependent yet parasitic upon the government just like the US has its "defence industry", that would dry up and blow away the instant the USA stopped its military spending.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 13 February 2002 11:54 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apparently, that's the case we have here DrC.
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 13 February 2002 12:16 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whatever, getting rid of a swastika is good. We can agree on that, yes?
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
bandit
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posted 13 February 2002 12:42 PM      Profile for bandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
White supremecy has a fairly strong current within the prison system to my knowledge, such as the bikers etc.Therefore, It would take a bit of courage to do what he is doing.Plus he becomes another poster boy for anti-rascism. I think laser surgery is not a denunciation of such beleifs though. I think he should get the red circle around it with a line crossing the swastika, which on the outside would swing for 100-150 bucks at the most, and would prove his sincerity.
From: sudbury | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 17 February 2002 02:47 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There you go bandit, same thing I'm saying. Or just black it out or turn it into a different design. The additional cost of laser surgery should not be born by taxpayers. Why buy a cadillac when a chevy will serve the same purpose.

But we all agree on one thing. One less swastika in the world is the goal we all want to achieve.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 17 February 2002 02:55 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Or just black it out ...

Rabble's very own Mike Constable has an animation about this very thing...


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged

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