babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » labour and consumption   » Muller v. HEU Local 180

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Muller v. HEU Local 180
CUPE_Reformer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7457

posted 30 December 2004 11:32 AM      Profile for CUPE_Reformer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
G. Farrell-Collins: "... a young woman who went through the nursing program at Camosun College had to cross a picket line as a volunteer in order to do her 40 hours of practicum and was advised by the union that it would be ok, volunteers were allowed to cross the picket line. But when she came to apply for a job as a nurse where she would have to join the HEU, she was denied the right to join that union and had to take that case to the Labour Relations Board." page 4125

Legislative Assembly of British Columbia Hansard

The young woman was denied membership in the union and therefore denied a job. It appears that the BC NDP feels that unions should be able to have members fired by their employers.

[ 28 March 2006: Message edited by: CUPE_Reformer ]


From: Real Solidarity | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 30 December 2004 11:51 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't get it. You claim to be a CUPE reformer and you are pleading for unions to have fewer, not more, rights?

Sounds like some of those babblers who claim to be NDP members and then say the NDP should espouse the harshest of neoliberal policies.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 30 December 2004 12:24 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
the BC NDP feels that unions should be able to have members fired by their employers.

In general, unions need powers to discipline those disposed to cross picket lines such as this woman did.

Doing so usually means that you prefer personal advancement to the advancement of the membership as a whole.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that unions should have some influence over hiring and firing.

The alternative is that only the employer should have this right. Why would anyone progressive believe that?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CUPE_Reformer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7457

posted 30 December 2004 12:32 PM      Profile for CUPE_Reformer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by lagatta:
quote:

I don't get it. You claim to be a CUPE reformer and you are pleading for unions to have fewer, not more, rights?

Sounds like some of those babblers who claim to be NDP members and then say the NDP should espouse the harshest of neoliberal policies.



lagatta:

Sometimes unions mistreat individual workers. Unions and individual workers should have more rights. Anti scab legislation should be passed.

[ 16 February 2005: Message edited by: CUPE_Reformer ]


From: Real Solidarity | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 30 December 2004 12:39 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unions, like all associations, businesses and public administrations, must be obliged to respect equality and civil rights, including the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (and here La Charte québécoise des droits). I am fully aware that there are unions who fail to respect their stated purpose of advancing the rights of all workers disregardless of colour, creed, gender, beliefs etc.

Scabbing is not a civil right. Unions depend on the solidarity of their membership, and not crossing a picket line is an essential component of that.

Hell, I haven't even been buying wine at the striking SAQ!


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
CUPE_Reformer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7457

posted 30 December 2004 12:43 PM      Profile for CUPE_Reformer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by jeff house:
quote:


In general, unions need powers to discipline those disposed to cross picket lines such as this woman did.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that unions should have some influence over hiring and firing.

The alternative is that only the employer should have this right. Why would anyone progressive believe that?



jeff house:

I agree that unions should be able to discipline union members. I also agree that unions should have some influence over hiring and firing. More safeguards need to exist to prevent unions from mistreating individual workers.

[ 16 February 2005: Message edited by: CUPE_Reformer ]


From: Real Solidarity | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
CUPE_Reformer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7457

posted 30 December 2004 12:59 PM      Profile for CUPE_Reformer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by lagatta:
quote:

Unions, like all associations, businesses and public administrations, must be obliged to respect equality and civil rights, including the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (and here La Charte québécoise des droits).

Scabbing is not a civil right. Unions depend on the solidarity of their membership, and not crossing a picket line is an essential component of that.



lagatta:

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms only applies to the government. The Trial sections of most union constitutions are contrary to the most basic freedoms guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I agree that scabbing is not and should not be a civil right.

[ 16 February 2005: Message edited by: CUPE_Reformer ]


From: Real Solidarity | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 30 December 2004 01:02 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Plus has anyone forgotten the part of the story where the lady asked the union and was advised it was ok to do it? Shouldnt that have made it a moot point?
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 30 December 2004 01:18 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
has anyone forgotten the part of the story where the lady asked the union and was advised it was ok to do it? Shouldnt that have made it a moot point?

I couched my comments in general terms because I do not know the specifics of the case. I certainly do not assume that the only version is the one which the Member of Provincial Parliament articulated. Hearing both sides of the story is usually smart.

I am unaware of the precise provisions of "trial" clauses in Collective Agreements. If these permit kangaroo hearings, they should be replaced by better ones. That goes without saying.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 30 December 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd like to know why you've got such a bone to pick with CUPE. No union is perfect - I can even tell some horror stories about the CSN, one of the most progressive trade unions in North America - but CUPE is certainly not among the parent unions usually singled out for undemocratic practices.

Union democracy is essential, but weakening union solidarity does not contribute to it, on the contrary. And conversely, a more democratic union is a more authentically militant one, committed to the defence of workers' rights and also to principles of democracy, including economic democracy and human rights.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
CUPE_Reformer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7457

posted 30 December 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for CUPE_Reformer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by lagatta:
quote:

I'd like to know why you've got such a bone to pick with CUPE. No union is perfect - I can even tell some horror stories about the CSN, one of the most progressive trade unions in North America - but CUPE is certainly not among the parent unions usually singled out for undemocratic practices.

Union democracy is essential, but weakening union solidarity does not contribute to it, on the contrary. And conversely, a more democratic union is a more authentically militant one, committed to the defence of workers' rights and also to principles of democracy, including economic democracy and human rights.



lagatta:

CUPE is a big union. I have never seen democracy nor worker solidarity in CUPE. The only solidarity that I have seen is between CUPE and my employer. In my opinion it is almost impossible to find officers guilty of violating the CUPE Constitution (at least 4 out of 5 members of Local Union Trial Committees must agree).

[ 19 April 2005: Message edited by: CUPE_Reformer ]


From: Real Solidarity | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2170

posted 30 December 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
CUPE is a big union. I have never seen democracy nor worker solidarity in CUPE.

Two ideas:

1. travel around a bit, to see some good CUPE locals - I can recommend a few if you'd like. I've had and heard of problems with CUPE, but I've also had and heard of some excellent experiences. Something about it being a large oranization, made up of all these imperfect human types.

2. if you don't like it, take it over. My local has elections and such - I'd assume yours does too. If there is an actual problem, some on the ground mobilizing should raise awareness, and a good team of people who want to see change could be built. Of course, be aware that you'll likely be asked for positive things you would do, not just a list of the evils committed by those currently in leadership positions.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
CUPE_Reformer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7457

posted 30 December 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for CUPE_Reformer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by swirrlygrrl:
quote:

Two ideas:

1. travel around a bit, to see some good CUPE locals - I can recommend a few if you'd like. I've had and heard of problems with CUPE, but I've also had and heard of some excellent experiences. Something about it being a large oranization, made up of all these imperfect human types.

2. if you don't like it, take it over. My local has elections and such - I'd assume yours does too. If there is an actual problem, some on the ground mobilizing should raise awareness, and a good team of people who want to see change could be built. Of course, be aware that you'll likely be asked for positive things you would do, not just a list of the evils committed by those currently in leadership positions.



swirrlygrrl:

Thank you for your advice.

I would appreciate it if you would recommend some good CUPE locals.

[ 16 February 2005: Message edited by: CUPE_Reformer ]


From: Real Solidarity | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195

posted 30 December 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was a member of CUPE Local 3906 and while we sometimes got bogged down in petty internal politics, all in all I thought we had a pretty good union. I've generally had a very good experience with the entire CUPE University Sector, at least in Ontario. Of course, alln these locals were originally part of an independent union, the CUEW, before merging with CUPE.
From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 989

posted 03 January 2005 05:02 AM      Profile for Phil     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by robbie_dee:
I was a member of CUPE Local 3906 and while we sometimes got bogged down in petty internal politics, all in all I thought we had a pretty good union. I've generally had a very good experience with the entire CUPE University Sector, at least in Ontario. Of course, alln these locals were originally part of an independent union, the CUEW, before merging with CUPE.


I am a member of CUPE 3906 and have no serious complaints with CUPE at the Local, Provincial or National level. Nevertheless, I recognize that CUPE's commitment to "Local autonomy" can lead to the "petty internal politics" that RD describes. I'm happy to report that currently CUPE 3906 is focused on bargaining and is enjoying a period of profound solidarity!!!

Edit: Also want to add that I was not real happy with what happened to HEU last year....

[ 03 January 2005: Message edited by: Phil ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
p durand
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7594

posted 03 January 2005 04:00 PM      Profile for p durand     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CUPE_Reformer:
I have never seen democracy nor worker solidarity in CUPE.

I did see worker solidarity in CUPE, it was during april 2001 anti-ZLEA demos. While the youth organize a demo, most union leaders decide to go at a conference. When some of the base union delegates got the drift of it, they where outraged. Many of them (about 2 000) left the union conference and went to the street. Most of them where CUPE members.


From: montreal | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 03 January 2005 04:15 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was at that demo as well, after the countersummit at the Old Port. There were also a lot of CAW members (one gave me a bandana which I still have by my desk with my anti-ZLÉA button) (ZLÉA is FTAA in English and ALCA in Spanish and Portuguese).
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Negad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7863

posted 10 January 2005 05:42 PM      Profile for Negad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CUPE_Reformer Wrote:
"The only solidarity that I have seen is between CUPE and my employer."
You too? the only solidarity that I have seen in CUPE is between the employer and executives which resulted in executives recevieng big pedastals and CHEQUES. They are big bullies like you wouldn't beleive.
Discrimiantion and violation of human rights? don't even ask

From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
lacabombi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7014

posted 15 January 2005 09:54 PM      Profile for lacabombi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Negad: ..the only solidarity that I have seen in CUPE is between the employer and executives which resulted in executives recevieng big pedastals and CHEQUES. They are big bullies like you wouldn't beleive. Discrimiantion and violation of human rights? don't even ask


Like political parties, union have a strategic interest to cater to the majority of their members. Thus, they reflect the sexism and racism that exists in the general population.

As for CUPE, isn't it the union that represent for instance the employees of the Workers' Compensation Board of Ontario (whatever its name now) that has never ended its war against injured workers and other ministries and institutions that -through these CUPE-members employees, inflict abuses on citizens ?


quote:
There are some courageous doctors in Canada who have seen the abuses within WCBs and have come forward with their complaints. One brave doctor, Doctor Maida Follini, testified before a 1998 committee on Nova Scotia's WCB Act,

"I experienced some pressure from the WCB in relation to one of my cases. After submitting my report, I received a letter from Dr. Kevin A. Bourke, Medical Adviser, Central North Shore, informing me that he would not process the invoice for my fee unless I edited my report to conform to his desires. Fortunately, unbeknownst to him, I had already received my fee. I, of course, did not edit my report. But I did inform him of the rationale for the recommendations that I had made. I might say that I was somewhat affronted that a WCB staff member would request that an independent professional change her report to conform to the board's wishes and in particular, threaten to withhold payment."


http://www.straightgoods.ca/ViewLetter.cfm?REF=1441

While the above quotes relate to Nova Scotia's WCB, the Ontario one is even worse.

When was the last time a public servant -through CUPE- has blown the whistle against abuse of citizens by his/her employer ?

Sorry my friends, I certainly consider myself progressive, but although I am a CAW member I have little respect for unions, our North American brand that is.

[ 15 January 2005: Message edited by: lacabombi ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Negad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7863

posted 17 January 2005 07:00 PM      Profile for Negad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It seems that people are concerned that they may be perceived as "Un-progressive" or “anti-union” if they talk about oppressions that unions perpetuate on their members.
Blowing the whistle of an institute that is supposed to be acting certain way is not an act of "un-progressive" it is in fact an progressive act. If we do not watch these politicians (union bosses are politicians) then they can do as they are pleased and oppress people without anyone knowing. Just imagine if Martin (the PM) say that Canada is a democratic country and those speak out about lack of proper services or lack of democracy in Canada are "anti-democracy". Union bosses really have been enjoying their little rides to power on the backs of workers only because no one speaks out about their abuses. They take power away from the establishment and keep it for themselves. The concept of union stems from the believe that Power should be in the hands of workers. Corruption is corruption, no matter who is implementing it whether an institute that is supposed to be pro-worker but abuses workers and perpatuates racism and sexism or "KKK" groups.

[ 06 February 2005: Message edited by: Negad ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195

posted 17 January 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think it is "un-progressive" or anti-union to discuss oppressive conduct by union officials or any other problems that union members may encounter within their union. Unions are organizations like any other. They have problems like any other. There are also problems unique to the role that unions play, in our labor relations system, as an intermediary between the individual worker and their boss.

All in all, I think most unions do more good for more people more of the time than they do ill. But that doesn't mean there aren't important things that can and have to be changed. That being said, it is one thing to gripe about the problems, it is another thing to stand up and try to change them. If you are having a particular problem with CUPE or another union, there are a lot of intelligent people who visit this forum and who might be able to offer advice. There are other web communities I could recommend for this purpose, too.

I would further suggest, though, that if what you are looking for is help or moral support in crossing a picket line (as is the case in the quote CUPE_Reformer used to start this thread), you probably won't find that here or on the other sites I am thinking of. I do believe that crossing a picket line is both an unprogressive and an anti-union act.


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Negad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7863

posted 17 January 2005 10:13 PM      Profile for Negad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is very interesting that you assume that talking about misconduct of Unions has something do with crossing picket line. Like many other threads discussion evolves from one thing to others. Crossing picket line is very different from perpetuation of oppression in the name of union or denying people's rights in the name of union by “union bosses”. One important thing about concept of union is that it is suppose to represent all worker's fairly however since everything is now about getting votes to be a leader then the whole dynamic changes, leaders do what would bring them votes then the only serve the privilege of majority which is white middle class and the rest are expected to accept it as an act of brotherhood and sisterhood. If brotherhood and sisterhood means that those who are in minority in work place forget about their rights then that system has to change. In terms of changing things, well, discussion is an start, isn't it? Also when we are talking about bullies at unions then that means this is not just an easy thing. Bullies just won’t say you want changes, suuuure you got it. If a minority group likes to stand up for their rights then they would look for support anywhere they can find it. Perhaps you are not able to understand this LITTLE barrier because your privileges are always on the top of every agenda and everything is always about you. Perhaps the “union officials” are determined to get more privileges for you and they are doing so by taking away rights of others.
If talk about equity and anti-oppression brings shiver to the spine of "unionists" then perhaps one should re-think their true agenda adn whether if it is really "union" seeking or power and status seeking and previlage protecting.

[ 17 January 2005: Message edited by: Negad ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195

posted 17 January 2005 10:44 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am not assuming anything. My comment about crossing picket lines is based on the post that started this thread and a response directly to it. If your situation does not involve crossing a picket line, then my comment doesn't apply to you.

You on the other hand are making a lot of assumptions about me. You are also making a lot of insinuations about a specific union - CUPE - without backing them up. If you would like to back them up, then maybe we will have something to talk about. If you don't want to provide such information that is fine too, but I am not sure what you could expect in response from anyone else here except for us to say that "gee, it sounds like you're pretty unhappy."

[ 17 January 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195

posted 17 January 2005 11:15 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Even without knowing the details of your situation, one piece of information I can bring to your attention is that CUPE does have an "Equality" department. If you are having particular issues with race or sex based discrimination in your local, which you seem to be implying, you may want to try contacting them.

From CUPE.ca -- Contacts & Links -- National

quote:
Equality Branch

Maureen Morrison
Director, Equality Branch
(613) 237-1590 ext. 314
mmorrison@cupe.ca



From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Negad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7863

posted 17 January 2005 11:36 PM      Profile for Negad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, those who need to understand what I mean seem to be getting it just fine and I have received private replies from others who experience discrimination within unions. It is not even about an specific case. Those who would need to understand it get it right away and that is all it counts. Those privileged can whine all they want and put a value on our concerns but we won't be silenced. By the way I have information about equity offices of all unions, believe me I won’t wait for permission of those privileged to obtain these information.
Also, you bet discrimination makes me un-happy it makes me very un-happy.
I suppose those who are totally oblivious to it just can't understand why some are “un-happy” because they are "positive" and "grand" individuals. Well good for you. I am proud of being un-happy about discrimination and I hope no individual ever stop talking about racism and sexism because those privileged do not like to see and hear "un-happy" things, after all their happiness depends on the very things that we are trying to dismantle. You can continue being happy and I will continue to be “un-happy” but I won't be silenced or I better say you can’t silent me by putting negative value on my concerns. I will speak until such a time that those of you who only like “happy” people won’t allow yourselves to tell us how to act so it won’t make you “uncomfortable” which I suppose you feel when you hear “un-happy” things.

From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195

posted 17 January 2005 11:43 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"whatever"
From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Negad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7863

posted 17 January 2005 11:50 PM      Profile for Negad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by robbie_dee:
"whatever"

That is exactly what one can expect from a privliged person in fear of loosing their privilages. Well I won't be loosing any sleep over you, shaking in your little privileged booties.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca