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Author Topic: Who want Liberal minority with NDP/Greens/Bloc holding balance of power?
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 05:40 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is my preference. It would allow the NDP and Greens hold the Liberals accountable on Green and special issues, and undo the creeping right wing shift of the Tory minority.

What's the best way of making this happen?


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 07 September 2008 05:48 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about NDP govt with libs, Bloc and Greens ensuring the NDP enact progressive govt, so that it is well entrenched economically, socially and culturally - with a new kind of strong leadership!

Better hope though that NDP and Bloc can get the progressive legislation through without support of the libs, because based on their last 18 months in opposition, they voted with the cons on their right-wing agenda.

Futhermore, under the leadership of Chretin and Martin ahead of finance, he made cuts that Conservative Mulroney only dreamed of. Once again, buying into the Myth that liberals are progressive. Only in the dying days of a liberal minority govt did they get around - after 13 long years - of pretending to be progressive. It's their classic operative.

Once again they are FAKING LEFT - don't be fooled again.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ]

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ]


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 07 September 2008 05:53 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
yes because the Libs are so very progressive in the way that they governed and then the way that they held harper accountable
From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
David Young
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posted 07 September 2008 06:01 AM      Profile for David Young     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forget about any minority government that contains the Bloc Quebecois.

Liberal minority supported by the NDP, I can live with that...that's when Canada has gotten much of our most progressive legislation.


From: Liverpool, N.S. | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 06:03 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
How about NDP govt with libs, Bloc and Greens ensuring the NDP enact progressive govt, so that it is well entrenched economically, socially and culturally - with a new kind of strong leadership!

I'd accept a Green minority government too, but that's not going to happen, just like an NDP government.

As for voting with the Tories, who called the last Harper budget an "NDP budget"? I believe it was Layton who signed a backroom deal with Harper. If the Liberals are complicit in the Tory's right-wing agenda, so is the NDP.

This type of partisan rhetoric is why I stay clear of joining political parties.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 06:14 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by David Young:
Forget about any minority government that contains the Bloc Quebecois.

Liberal minority supported by the NDP, I can live with that...that's when Canada has gotten much of our most progressive legislation.


I agree that this would lead to progressive legislation.

Re: The Bloc - I think you're thinking about a coalition government. In a coalition government, cabinet is drawn from several parties and the parties govern together. No way the Bloc would be involved. No way the NDP would be involved with the Liberals either. The Greens and Liberals seem to get along well enough to make it work.

In a minority government (what we have now), Cabinet is drawn from one party, but legislation must get the support of another party (or other parties) in Parliament. The Bloc would support a lot of progressive measures in a Liberal of NDP minority.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 07 September 2008 06:17 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:

I'd accept a Green minority government too, but that's not going to happen, just like an NDP government.

As for voting with the Tories, who called the last Harper budget an "NDP budget"? I believe it was Layton who signed a backroom deal with Harper. If the Liberals are complicit in the Tory's right-wing agenda, so is the NDP.

This type of partisan rhetoric is why I stay clear of joining political parties.


My goodness, do you ever have your facts wrong. Budgets are CONFIDENCE VOTES. The NDP has voted against this govt and every confidence motion put forth in the house.

So here is your beloved liberals NOT STANDING UP:

Harper’s agenda: Get his third budget passed. A budget that doesn't offer a cent for child care or skyrocketing drug costs, but steals $55 billion in surplus employee contributions to the Employment Insurance fund.

Liberals helped by: Ordering all but 10 MPs to abstain from the vote (4 March 2008)


Harper’s agenda: Stay in power by defeating a NDP non-confidence motion against the decision to give a massive $50.5 billion tax break to profitable corporations while ordinary people pay a greater share of taxes.

Liberals helped by: Voting with Harper (2 April 2008).

Oh yah, and May wants Dion as leader of govt. DO all us here a favour, get your facts straight. Too many posters here with the facts.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ]


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 07 September 2008 06:18 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
for a lib minority to happen the libs need to win 28 seats, the cons need to lose about 27 or so.

because if the cons have 1 more seat even in a minority they keep the government

so while i like this idea I ask one little question. Where will the support for 28 new seats for the Dion libs come from?
The west? no
Ontario -- dont think so
Quebec -- that is funny


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 06:56 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
for a lib minority to happen the libs need to win 28 seats, the cons need to lose about 27 or so.

because if the cons have 1 more seat even in a minority they keep the government

so while i like this idea I ask one little question. Where will the support for 28 new seats for the Dion libs come from?
The west? no
Ontario -- dont think so
Quebec -- that is funny


The Liberals don't have to win any. The Conservatives just have to lose 28. That is very doable.

The Tories could lose seats in Quebec to both the Bloc and Liberals. Maxime Bernier is running in the heart of Conservative support in the Quebec City area. Julie Couillard is due to release a tell-all book about here relationship with the Hell's Angels and Maxime Bernier on October 14 (election day), and this will become a huge issue. That's 10 seats right there.

In Ontario, there are 40 Conservative seats. In most of them, they got in with less than 40% of the vote. In these, voters should vote for the party that came in second in the last election (NDP or Liberal) or the candidate that appears the most open to working with other parties. Voters should reward parties for cooperating with other parties. Perhaps the Greens could be convinced to leave certain ridings alone in return for the support of the Bloc, Liberals, and NDP to get Elizabeth May on the leadership debates. It's been done in Dion's riding.

Out West, the same holds, especially outside Alberta. The NDP is much stronger here. Provincial parties should be given a freer hand in supporting federal NDP candidates.

Strategic voting will be key. It's the only way to avoid a Harper government, or worse, a Harper majority.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
john
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posted 07 September 2008 07:09 AM      Profile for john     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for voting with the Tories, who called the last Harper budget an "NDP budget"? I believe it was Layton who signed a backroom deal with Harper.

As janfromthebruce points out, The NDP never supported a Harper budget. Not even close.

You may be thinking of the 2005 Liberal budget that Layton rewrote -- cancelling billions of corporate tax cuts to invest in affordable housing, education & training, public transit and other priorities.

It's worth remembering that the Liberals' first choice with Budget 2005 was to sop to the Cons -- their more natural partner. Paul Martin took Layton's calls only after Harper withdrew his support to try to force a May election instead.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: john ]


From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 07 September 2008 07:15 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Strategic voting is the key."

That sounds vaguely familiar.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 07 September 2008 07:21 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:
Strategic voting will be key. It's the only way to avoid a Harper government, or worse, a Harper majority.

yup it will help Harper like it did Harris.
A stronger mandate


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
melovesproles
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posted 07 September 2008 07:23 AM      Profile for melovesproles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm a fan of strategic voting, I hope that in the riding of my home town, Vancouver Island North, that progressive Green and Liberal voters remember the only way to stop the Conservatives is to reelect the NDP MP, Catherine Bell. Its been a very close election the last two times out.
From: BC | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 07 September 2008 07:24 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quite frankly I do not want a Liberal minority. History has taught me that there is really little practical difference between a Liberal or Conservative government. They just tell me different lies.

What I want is a minority government with a strong official opposition for a change. Frankly I don't care who is the government if that happens.

This past 2 years has taught us the peril of allowing the Liberals to be a do nothing party in opposition. The previous 13 years taught us the peril of having a a do-nothing Liberal government. The past 2 years have also taught us the peril of the Conservative in power.

Frankly I will be working for change. Period.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
melovesproles
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posted 07 September 2008 07:28 AM      Profile for melovesproles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oops

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: melovesproles ]


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 07:34 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by melovesproles:
I'm a fan of strategic voting, I hope that in the riding of my home town, Vancouver Island North, that progressive Green and Liberal voters remember the only way to stop the Conservatives is to reelect the NDP MP, Catherine Bell. Its been a very close election the last two times out.

Seems like a riding worth watching. In a tight 3-way race (possibly 4-way!), you need to check the local candidate very carefully.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 07 September 2008 07:47 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:

Seems like a riding worth watching. In a tight 3-way race (possibly 4-way!), you need to check the local candidate very carefully.


So I gather from your reply that the familiar "strategic voting" means vote liberal or NOW green. Noted that you didn't say yes, vote for Catherine Bell, but need to check local candidate very carefully.

Keep on ignoring the comments you don't like which might, induce COGNITIVE DISSONANCE

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ]


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 08:13 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In my riding, it will probably mean voting Bloc, unless the Tory fortunes take a tumble in Quebec.

I have no idea who Catherine Bell is, what her background is, and what she stands for. I know the NDP has a spotty record on the environment. They care more about their buddies in Ontario and B.C. public-sector unions than the environment on the whole, with a few exceptions.


quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:

So I gather from your reply that the familiar "strategic voting" means vote liberal or NOW green. Noted that you didn't say yes, vote for Catherine Bell, but need to check local candidate very carefully.

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ]



From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 07 September 2008 08:20 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:
This is my preference. It would allow the NDP and Greens hold the Liberals accountable on Green and special issues, and undo the creeping right wing shift of the Tory minority.

What's the best way of making this happen?


Vote Liberal


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 07 September 2008 08:22 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread just reminded me of this ditti. What do others think - is it a fit.

I was once out strolling one very hot summer's day

When I thought I'd lay myself down to rest

in a big field of tall grass

I lay there in the sun and felt it caressing my face

And I fell asleep and dreamed

I dreamed I was in a Hollywood movie

And that I was the star of the movie

This really blew my mind, the fact that me,

an overfed, long-haired leaping gnome

should be the star of a Hollywood movie....


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Northern54
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posted 07 September 2008 08:26 AM      Profile for Northern54     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I cannot imagine ever falling for this one again. Over the course of my life, we have never had a progressive Liberal government. The last one was as far from progressive as a government could get.

The way to get a progressive government is to vote for a progressive party. Vote NDP.

Vote strategically and you will get a Liberal government like the last one and Martin's government was far from progressive.


From: Yellowknife | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 08:47 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by john:

As janfromthebruce points out, The NDP never supported a Harper budget. Not even close.

You may be thinking of the 2005 Liberal budget that Layton rewrote -- cancelling billions of corporate tax cuts to invest in affordable housing, education & training, public transit and other priorities.

It's worth remembering that the Liberals' first choice with Budget 2005 was to sop to the Cons -- their more natural partner. Paul Martin took Layton's calls only after Harper withdrew his support to try to force a May election instead.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: john ]


I stand corrected.

I'll point out that Harper's first choice for a backroom deal for gaining support for his budget was the NDP. The NDP was all to willing to cut a deal Harper, as they were with Martin. They didn't get the one they wanted.

The real point is that the NDP is a much more natural fit for Dion than Martin was or Harper is. Dion comes from the progrssive wing of the liberal party. The Green shift (Dion's major plank) is a much closer fit to the NDP's way of thinking than the Conservatives, who don't even really believe that global warming is happening or see a need for getting the Canadian economy less dependent on oil.

The NDP makes legitimate criticism of the Green Shift by pointing out that it doesn't do enough for the unemployed, who'll see higher prices on goods without any increase in income. Certainly, if they can support a Martin budget with some modification, they can do the same for a Green plan by Dion.

In the end, Jack Layton has shown himself pragmatic and willing to talk to anyone, even Harper and Martin. That bids well for a Liberal minority led by Dion (in the unlikely event that it happens).


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 07 September 2008 08:51 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
What I want is a minority government with a strong official opposition for a change. Frankly I don't care who is the government if that happens.
Yes, i pointed this out in another thread, that this election, is truthfully about getting an official Opposition that actually is one. Because we are going to have successive minority governments, for a bit yet.

quote:
This past 2 years has taught us the peril of allowing the Liberals to be a do nothing party in opposition. The previous 13 years taught us the peril of having a a do-nothing Liberal government. The past 2 years have also taught us the peril of the Conservative in power.

Frankly I will be working for change. Period.



yep, a new kinda strong, that can actually bring change!

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 08:57 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Northern54:
I cannot imagine ever falling for this one again. Over the course of my life, we have never had a progressive Liberal government. The last one was as far from progressive as a government could get.

It was more progressive than the Harper government. The NDP even supported the Liberal budget by intorducing new funds for social housing. Do you think this would happen with a Harper majority?

Vote NDP where they have the best chance of winning, by all means. Thomas Mulcair was a good man of principle in Quebec, for example. Do it in a riding where they run 18-year-old college students and you're helping create a Harper government.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 07 September 2008 09:03 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

yep, a new kinda strong, that can actually bring change!

Mind you, real progressive change, not the kind where it looks good in the press, but in reality, it is just more of the 'same old, same old.'

I want an environmental policy that focuses on green research, development and implementation. i want one that - where corporations who continue to pollute are not rewarded and any tax taken from such goes into the kitty for greening of Canada so we all benefit, and not just for those with the means to afford being green.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 07 September 2008 09:03 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:
I stand corrected.
apparently you didn't as you went on to say basically the same thing, that you said you were corrected on.

quote:
I'll point out that Harper's first choice for a backroom deal for gaining support for his budget was the NDP. The NDP was all to willing to cut a deal Harper, as they were with Martin. They didn't get the one they wanted.
Nonsense and fabrication.

Am quoting the following only to point out an excellent example of the GP shilling for the Liberals, and what other party candidates will be facing in any ALL Candidate debates. 2-1 lib Green.

quote:
The real point is that the NDP is a much more natural fit for Dion than Martin was or Harper is. Dion comes from the progrssive wing of the liberal party. The Green shift (Dion's major plank) is a much closer fit to the NDP's way of thinking than the Conservatives, who don't even really believe that global warming is happening or see a need for getting the Canadian economy less dependent on oil.

The NDP makes legitimate criticism of the Green Shift by pointing out that it doesn't do enough for the unemployed, who'll see higher prices on goods without any increase in income. Certainly, if they can support a Martin budget with some modification, they can do the same for a Green plan by Dion.

In the end, Jack Layton has shown himself pragmatic and willing to talk to anyone, even Harper and Martin. That bids well for a Liberal minority led by Dion (in the unlikely event that it happens).


Too funny, you just admitted that Dion's Green Shift, which will have to be renamed, is unworkable, for Canadians, and that he needs the NDP's help to make it workable.

uh...so...then....why would, concerned about the environment, Canadians vote for Dion, when their plan is inferior to the NDP's, and indeed they need the NDP's help to make it? Given that they/we can actually vote for the party that knows what needs to be done, and by your own admission, can get it done.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 09:41 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by remind:

Too funny, you just admitted that Dion's Green Shift, which will have to be renamed, is unworkable, for Canadians, and that he needs the NDP's help to make it workable.

It's very workable. 15 billion in income tax cuts and credits replaced by 15 billion in taxes on pollution. That's a shift from taxing work to taxing pollution. It can be done right away. Right now, the tax cuts go towards the middle class. The NDP should press for more to go to the unemployed. If Layton can support a right-wing Paul Martin budget (I erred before in saying they supported a Harper budget), they can certainly support a shift in taxation from income to pollution.

The NDP's hard caps are a good idea too, but would need more time to implement. It would also require more expensive bureaucracy to enforce the caps.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
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posted 07 September 2008 09:52 AM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why settle for any less than the best?
From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 07 September 2008 10:06 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:
It's very workable.
Ummmm, no it isn't in fact, if it needs the NDP's help to make it so, which you have said it needs twice now.

quote:
15 billion in income tax cuts and credits replaced by 15 billion in taxes on pollution. That's a shift from taxing work to taxing pollution.
That is actually slight of hand, at best, a con job at worst, and does nothing for the environment. It just shifts things around to make it appear so, hence the use of "shift"

quote:
It can be done right away.
Sure, there is no time like the present to pull a con job that does nothing for the environment.

quote:
Right now, the tax cuts go towards the middle class. The NDP should press for more to go to the unemployed.
Thank you for pointing out one of the flaws, and failures that the NDP's plan takes into consideration.

quote:
If Layton can support a right-wing Paul Martin budget
He didn't, he drew up an NDP one. Another error of yours.

quote:
(I erred before in saying they supported a Harper budget),
Well, I certainly hope we will not see your trying to say that a 3rd time then, thank you.

quote:
they can certainly support a shift in taxation from income to pollution.
You this gets funnier every time I read/hear it. In both cases people are going to be taxed, you are setting up a false dichotomy.

quote:
The NDP's hard caps are a good idea too, but would need more time to implement. It would also require more expensive bureaucracy to enforce the caps.

Well, at least pollution is actually targeted and lessened as opposed to shifting the cash around and doing nothing.

Nor would they need more time to be implimented.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 07 September 2008 10:15 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm going to correct my having called soul scanner a bullshitter in the other now closed thread.

It didn't come across how I intended.

I wouldn't call soul scanner a bullshitter. She/he called Layon and Duceppe "improvisational bullshitters". And I would say its her conceit that the line she pursues here is any different in nature.

Most of the time in politics people whether they are professional politicians or amateurs are not telling what they know to be untruths. The slippery slope is rationalizing what you have to say. People in politics have narratives. And a lot of it is improvisitional, and highly stilted in whatever intersts they espouse [be those partisan or not].

Hence my notion that it is a big conceit of soul scanner's to point the finger at Layton and Duceppe- and coincidentally not at Dion- considering his own improvisational narrative here. And part of that conceit is to frame what they are doing it as 'just realism'.

Like I said, I wouldn't call that bullshitting. Just the pot not realizing its black too.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
soul_scanner
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posted 07 September 2008 10:35 AM      Profile for soul_scanner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Well, at least pollution is actually targeted and lessened as opposed to shifting the cash around and doing nothing.

Nor would they need more time to be implimented.


quote:
[quote]15 billion in income tax cuts and credits replaced by 15 billion in taxes on pollution. That's a shift from taxing work to taxing pollution.

That is actually slight of hand, at best, a con job at worst, and does nothing for the environment. It just shifts things around to make it appear so, hence the use of "shift" [/QUOTE]

It makes products that consume lots of oil more expensive, and those that reduce energy consumption or run on clean energy more attractive. At the same time, it puts $1 000 in the hands of Canadians to spend on green products and technologies (or the more expensive dirty ones, if they wish to subsidize the middle and working class income tax cuts). That's why the Greens support both a carbon tax and hard caps.

I do agree that hard caps are neccessary. Being non partisan, I look at the plan itself instead of repeating talking points. That's why I hope for a Liberal minority with an NDP balance of power.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 07 September 2008 12:21 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:

I do agree that hard caps are necessary. Being non partisan, I look at the plan itself instead of repeating talking points. That's why I hope for a Liberal minority with an NDP balance of power.


Well, when Dion talks, he doesn't say anything about how much carbon would be reduced, in fact, all he talks about is talks cuts. Nor does the Dion Liberal plan induce "the magic hand of the market" to create green technologies and greener products.
And considering that those with the money will be the same ones able to afford those more expensive green products and services it seems those with lots more disposable income, and not the working class and working poor and/or unemployed, unemployable, elderly and so on.

And as for that balance of power thing, last liberal minority, the libs liked to work with the cons as their major partner, and after they switched spots, libs still preferred working with cons.

So are we going for that change of heart thing here - fake to the left but really dance on the right? Don't answer - it was a rhetorical question.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 07 September 2008 12:56 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:
Being non partisan

*giggle*


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 07 September 2008 01:50 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:
It makes products that consume lots of oil more expensive, and those that reduce energy consumption or run on clean energy more attractive.
Okay, let's foget about the most important fact that it will cause people, who can hardly afford to heat their home already, not be able to heat them at all, say nothing about eating, and let's talk about what "products" you are speaking of?

quote:
At the same time, it puts $1 000 in the hands of Canadians
No, it doesn't it takes 1000 out, and then puts 1000 back, for some select few, while gouging those who can ill afford to be gouged, and does not address anything else.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Winston
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13863

posted 07 September 2008 02:55 PM      Profile for Winston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Liberal government??? Absolutely not! Why should any progressive person in their right minds support a party that promised so much but did so little (other than balancing the books on the backs of the provinces) in their 12 years in power? Not to say anything about how they have absenteed themselves and/or outright supported Harper's nasty agenda for the last two years.

If Harper is head to re-election, as he appears to be REGARDLESS of how well the Liberals do or don't do, the one saving grace could (hopefully) be the annihilation of the self-serving, crooked, lying, hypocritical, right-wing farce that is the Liberal Party of Canada!


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 07 September 2008 04:10 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“Unlike Stephen Harper, I'll be a Prime Minister who puts you and your family first,” he told reporters and about 100 supporters who gathered behind Hull's Museum of Civilization where the Parliament buildings provided a scenic backdrop.

Jack must be reading my posts. His speech today doesn't sound like he agrees with the "strategic vote wankers and other assorted underachievers.

The writ has hardly dropped and Jack took a big bite out of Harper. One can only hope that he doesn't have to carry the charge to win by himself. Lets get out there and make some noise!


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 07 September 2008 04:13 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it puts $1 000 in the hands of Canadians to spend on green products and technologies

And takes $2000 out of the pockets of Canadians to pay for it. Typical Liberal tax and spend.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 07 September 2008 04:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Winston:
Liberal government??? Absolutely not! Why should any progressive person in their right minds support a party that promised so much but did so little (other than balancing the books on the backs of the provinces) in their 12 years in power?

And they did it by travelling the low road. Liberals held off switching to modern federal accounting practices throughout most of the 90's. That made our federal government appear to be in worse shape financially than what they were. In the end, the Liberals stuck us with a real $130 billion dollar infrastructure deficit.

What Paul Martin's Liberals did in 1995 was force all of Canada to submit to an international financial regime imposed on the world by the IMF and World Bank. The Liberals submitted Canada to the regime of "structural adjustments", or the process of removing government from its previous important role in the economy. The structural adjustments promoted "privatization" the process of selling off public assets and offloading federal responsibilities to provinces, which in turn downloaded responsibilities on to municipalities. And the Liberals slashed and cut tens of billions of dollars from important Canadian social programs, from health care to post-secondary education. Liberals were fiscal Frankensteins over twelve long years in power. Both old line parties, Conservatives and Liberals, loathe spending on social programs but favour tax cuts and multi-billion dollar taxypayer funded handouts to profitable corporations and big bank monopolies.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
morningstar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12378

posted 07 September 2008 06:17 PM      Profile for morningstar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is disingenuous to pretend that Dion and his base of support within the Liberal party is much like either 2 past liberal governments.
Who are you fooling if you actually think that the ndp brand will be able to get the support in october to govern? or even has the wherewithall.
My experience with the ndp has been that it is as fraught with power seeking, posturing and sound bite messaging as any other party. The ndp has just had the luxury of criticizing and posturing WITHOUT EVER GOVERNING this country.
This is not the election to be in a fantasy power grab folks---this is the time to rally around Dion wherever possible (when a quality Liberal candidate is available) and Bury Harper.
Then, when we have some breathing room,lets sort out this wretched electoral system, work on promoting arts/social sciences education (this helps maintain a quality thinking citizenry), get together on real environmental action, etc, etc.
Dion is offering this country a chance to choose a different type of leader for a different type of politics. We have a chance to begin to dismantle patriarchy with Dion.
To keep throwing up out of context past actions of the old liberals is a bit overdone---all of the parties have gone through enormous shifts of many kinds in the very near past.
If we work togwether we just may not end up like America---if we stay divided, this beige looking fascism will sneak even closer to power and then we may not get to change our minds.
Liberal is a brand, a symbol---how the liberal party behaves is entirely up to all of us.
We are all in this together and if we can't smarten up and work together to truncate the actions of the most dangerous threat our cultures essence, well then we deserve what's coming as surely as the Americans dserve their society's political tragedy---they won't recover soon, if at all.
Will we?

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: morningstar ]


From: stratford, on | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14090

posted 07 September 2008 07:27 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"It is disingenuous to pretend that Dion and his base of support within the Liberal party is much like either 2 past liberal governments."

Sure they are. For example, the Dion Liberals voted against an anti scab bill in 2007(non-confidence), after supporting it through 1st and 2nd readings.

They bowed to pressure from the corporate lobbists and voted with Harper's Conservatives to defeat the bill. Same old, same old.

So the so-called base of support - the progressive fringe - that dresses them up like they are left of centre had no, absolutely no clout. It was the party brass and who really runs the liberal party who won, make no mistake.

This is 2008. Let's stroll down memory lane. New liberal leader who wrote a charming fantasy book, Straight from the Heart. It was full of progressive ideas. The public bought it, along with its cole notes version: the Liberal Redbook. I bought it. Sure sounded like the real thing. I campaigned for them, and told people about all the wonderful things the libs were going to do. We all know the rest of the narrative. Liberals with their huge majority, made cuts, downloaded, privitized and so on, that progressive conservatives could only dream of.

1997, they rolled out the same bunk, and Mr. Barlow wrote her book: Straight through the Heart. Also founded the Council of Canadians, she was so pissed, but it appears not quite pissed enough.

The liberals have always flirted on the left during election campaigns and danced with the right in power.

Obviously, Dion being a prof knows the history of his party - he is no dummy. He also learned its classic motive operative.

Those who have been around this block (more than several times) with the libs recognize it.

The problem for the libs is that they played the public for fools, and after 13 years, and now 15 years, some of its public, just can't take them seriously. Do you blame us.

The Liberals have not changed. Dion, before the election started, was speechifying how awful Harper is, and what he will do. All I could think was how pathetic he was. Well, if he was so bad, WHY DID THE DION LIBERALS KEEP HIM IN POWER FOR 2 YEARS? I guess they had lots in common.

I'm really tired of liberal/greens coming on to uniting the left. The liberals are not left. The Green's with their sanctified C.D. HOWE PLATFORM, is no indicator of progressive politics.

C.D. HOWE, what the heck? It tells me what side of the fence they are really on.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
MCunningBC
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14903

posted 07 September 2008 08:40 PM      Profile for MCunningBC        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:
This is my preference. It would allow the NDP and Greens hold the Liberals accountable ...


I gather you don't want any of the NDP MPs to have Cabinet posts? What about Elizabeth May, would she qualify for a Cabinet post? Just asking.


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 07 September 2008 10:20 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:

I stand corrected.


Tell me, soul-scanner.

If a Liberal accidentally tells the truth, does his head explode?


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 07 September 2008 10:21 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I want an NDP government.

The Liberal Party is a right wing party. Anyone who believes that the Liberals can be counted upon to deliver progressive policy is deluded.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: Malcolm French, APR ]


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 07 September 2008 10:42 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
I want an NDP government.

The Liberal Party is a right wing party. Anyone who believes that the Liberals can be counted upon to deliver progressive policy is deluded.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: Malcolm French, APR ]


One more Lib=Tory government and we'll be shuffled off to Louisanna or Gitmo for refusing to pledge allegiance to king Crazy George, grandson of Dubya sometime down the road. Canadians will be speaking American in no time at all with another old line party stoogeocracy in Ottawa.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15404

posted 08 September 2008 11:07 AM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by morningstar:
It is disingenuous to pretend that Dion and his base of support within the Liberal party is much like either 2 past liberal governments.

Ummm... exactly what "base of support" does Dion have in the Liberal party? Garth Turner? no. Rae? He's already campaigning to replace him. Iggy? Doubt it, again looking ahead to the next leadership race. Truth is that the LPC is already regretting their choice of leader. The knives are barely sheathed. Gerrard (who?) Kennedy possibly Ujjal Dosanjh) are about the only other progressive types in there. The rest of them are remnants of the centre right Chretien/Martinites and floor crossing conservatives.

This is Dions one and only shot at this. It is also important to understand that there is a very real chance the NDP will (and rightfully should) replace the Libs as official opposition, should they collapse, and Jack runs a strong campaign. The NDP is in good financial shape, and can fight this one toe to toe with the other two parties.

just my two cents.


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 08 September 2008 11:20 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
"This is 2008. Let's stroll down memory lane. New liberal leader who wrote a charming fantasy book, Straight from the Heart. It was full of progressive ideas. The public bought it, along with its cole notes version: the Liberal Redbook. I bought it. Sure sounded like the real thing. I campaigned for them, and told people about all the wonderful things the libs were going to do. We all know the rest of the narrative. Liberals with their huge majority, made cuts, downloaded, privitized and so on, that progressive conservatives could only dream of.

...Obviously, Dion being a prof knows the history of his party - he is no dummy. He also learned its classic motive operative.

Those who have been around this block (more than several times) with the libs recognize it.

The problem for the libs is that they played the public for fools, and after 13 years, and now 15 years, some of its public, just can't take them seriously. Do you blame us.

The Liberals have not changed. Dion, before the election started, was speechifying how awful Harper is, and what he will do. All I could think was how pathetic he was. Well, if he was so bad, WHY DID THE DION LIBERALS KEEP HIM IN POWER FOR 2 YEARS? I guess they had lots in common.

I'm really tired of liberal/greens coming on to uniting the left. The liberals are not left. The Green's with their sanctified C.D. HOWE PLATFORM, is no indicator of progressive politics.

C.D. HOWE, what the heck? It tells me what side of the fence they are really on.


Thank you for stating the truth so clearly!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 08 September 2008 12:02 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soul_scanner:

Seems like a riding worth watching. In a tight 3-way race (possibly 4-way!), you need to check the local candidate very carefully.


LOL

A tight four way race in Vancouver Island North. What an idea lets face it they don't even smoke that much on Hornby. This is a two way race between a New Democrat who narrowly beat a nasty old style Reformer who wants the seat back this time. This is a riding where any sensible person who believed in strategic voting would be urging the Liberals and Greens to bow out and throw their vote behind a truly progressive MP. But no they will run hard to beat her and hopefully they won't succeed in electing a neo-con instead.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14090

posted 08 September 2008 12:44 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Thank you for stating the truth so clearly!


Your welcome.

Liberal motive operatives (classic strategies)

1. Fake left morphes into unite the left
2. Fear of Harper majority morphes into The big bad neocons are going to remake Canada
and
3. The economy is tanking - we need the libs to save us.

So I will reiterate - Libs and cons have been remaking Canada since libs got elected in 1993. When tweedle and dee and dum switched sides, libs backed the big, bad scary cons and neoliberal agenda.

I want a different kind of strong leadership with a real progressive agenda - not the fake, gee sorry we can't get her done, maybe next time passive/aggressive agenda of either cons or libs.
3. Th


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 09 September 2008 06:34 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by morningstar:
Then, when we have some breathing room, lets sort out this wretched electoral system, etc, etc.

A good place to start is Liberals for Electoral Reform. Note the 28 Liberal Bloggers Who Supported the Citizens' Assembly's Recommendation for Change in Ontario.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 09 September 2008 09:51 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
Liberal motive operatives (classic strategies)

1. Fake left morphes into unite the left
2. Fear of Harper majority morphes into The big bad neocons are going to remake Canada
and
3. The economy is tanking - we need the libs to save us.

So I will reiterate - Libs and cons have been remaking Canada since libs got elected in 1993. When tweedle and dee and dum switched sides, libs backed the big, bad scary cons and neoliberal agenda.

I want a different kind of strong leadership with a real progressive agenda - not the fake, gee sorry we can't get her done, maybe next time passive/aggressive agenda of either cons or libs.


Well put again!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged

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