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Author Topic: Leaked e-mails expose Green Party war over secret deal with Dion
JimmyRiddle
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posted 19 October 2007 12:08 PM      Profile for JimmyRiddle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When Dion put politics ahead of principles this week to help Stephen Harper's agenda -- an agenda that killed Kyoto in Canada -- Elizabeth May stood right beside him. For a lot of people, the cosy relationship between May and Dion and Harper was just too much.

Turns out, some of those people are in the Green Party.

Dion's stock has fallen so much that people inside the Green Party are now leaking emails about Elizabeth May's secret "strategic voting" deal with the Liberals.

Macleans has it here. The not so subtle subtext? -- grassroots Greens want the deal scrapped and May with it.

[ 19 October 2007: Message edited by: JimmyRiddle ]


From: Soap box | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Oppo-Guy
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posted 19 October 2007 12:38 PM      Profile for Oppo-Guy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tough to know if it's staff or someone on the GPC's council who is the leaker.

The only surprise is that it took this long for them to find the email for Maclean's newsroom.

Actually, this is a surprise. Check out the email on that page from May in which she says on April 5th that

"Don't believe everything you read..!!! I do not endorse strategic voting. It is a hopeless mess."

Seven days later she signed the backroom deal with Dion.

Either a clueless staffer wrote the email on May's behalf, or she lied to her own party members and supporters.


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ravenj
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posted 19 October 2007 12:38 PM      Profile for ravenj     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, Backroom Lizzie did the deal without consultation with her executives? At least I now know not all Green Party executives are anti-democratic.
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ravenj
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posted 19 October 2007 12:41 PM      Profile for ravenj     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Our reciprocal leadership non-contestation is not anything but a statement of principle that we need urgent action for the planet.

But somehow the planet can wait when Harper declared Kyoto dead? I think her new quote was "We can live with the Throne Speech". Could she live with herself though?


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Life, the universe, everything
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posted 19 October 2007 12:47 PM      Profile for Life, the universe, everything     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Calling Cameron W
Spin this for us please. And let me know how I am just a lone bitter old Green, who has no basis for thinking the values, ideals and democratic spirit of the orignial Green party founders is DOA.

From: a little to the left - a bit more-there perfect | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
JimmyRiddle
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posted 19 October 2007 12:51 PM      Profile for JimmyRiddle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are so many nose stretchers to bust May with in here I don't know where to begin.

She never endorsed strategic voting?

Musta been another Elizabeth May who signed her name to this.

She trusts Dion because he is "throughly committed to Kyoto"?

The same Stephane Dion who just endorsed a Throne Speech that gives up on Kyoto in its entirety?

Yup. One and the same.

Utter hypocrisy. Utter desperation from two thoroughly discredited politicians who have no principles other than their own political preservation or deluded ambition.


From: Soap box | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 01:21 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Life, the universe, everything:
Calling Cameron W
Spin this for us please. And let me know how I am just a lone bitter old Green, who has no basis for thinking the values, ideals and democratic spirit of the orignial Green party founders is DOA.

LTUE, I will not offer spin. That is something I detest most about politics.

The values and ideals of the GPC are alive and well.

I covered this whole subject a while back on my blog.

FYI, I was consulted as a then member of the Federal Council of the Green party of Canada.

Obviously this was a big announcement, and not everyone from both parties was happy about it. Click on the link to my blog post to see what I think about it.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 19 October 2007 01:26 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
LTUE, I will not offer spin. That is something I detest most about politics.

You're funny!


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
James Brooks
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posted 19 October 2007 01:57 PM      Profile for James Brooks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
YOU"VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME...

the timing if this? We just had a council election for our new federal council.. (the last one was incompetent, although it was a bad idea in the long run not to tell every last one of them about this deal.. (if thats what happened) I can't blame her for not wanting to!)
Obviously one of the incompetent members who didn't get re elected had a hissy fit and dragged up some old e-mails he/she thought might be damaging to the party. The funny thing is, if weve got someone in the Party, who was on council, and has every little Green Party detail from the last couple years in his/her inbox, and this is he best he/she can do... I'd say we are in pretty good shape!

And to whomever leaked these emails... if this issue was really important to you... you should have done something about it then, not tried to sabotage us almost a year latter before a possible election! Is hurting the Green Party and electing the old line parties for more of the same really going to make you feel better? we have committees within the Green Party for this kind of stuff, why give the NDP more crap to yell out so they can take the topic off their long and accomplished history of doing nothing.


From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 02:09 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:

You're funny!


Yeah, but seriously, political spin drives me nuts. I really like harperindex.ca because it exposes the techniques of persuasion that the Harper government uses.

Of course whenever someone is discussing something they believe in, that person will likely speak positively of the things they support. Similarly they'll speak negatively of the things they don't support.

I see some forum members here spread disinformation about various subjects, including the NDP and the Greens. I guess that's not unexpected.

I also see some spin.

Of courseI've done my share of talking about the Green Party in a positive light. If you want to call that spin that's your right, but when it comes to that sort of spin (speaking positively of the parties we support) I think most of us here have taken part.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 19 October 2007 02:10 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well that pretty much proves the point Life was making doesn't it.
From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 02:44 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Life, the universe, everything:
let me know how I am just a lone bitter old Green

Based on the PM you just sent me, I'd say that yes, you are - to use your words - 'just a lone bitter old Green'. That's unfortunate. I thought you had your tone as bitter as you could set it in the forum, but your pm - complete with name calling like 'twit' and 'poser' - showed that you can be really really offensive.

LTUE, try to be constructive, and maybe try being nice while you're at it.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 02:47 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Well that pretty much proves the point Life was making doesn't it.

Sorry to repeat myself, but of course I've done my share of talking about the Green Party in a positive light. If you want to call that spin that's your right, but when it comes to that sort of spin (speaking positively of the parties we support) I think most of us here have taken part.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 19 October 2007 02:52 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry we must have cross posted. I was responding to the post above yours.
From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 02:58 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Sorry we must have cross posted. I was responding to the post above yours.

Oh.

What was LTUE's point again?


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Scott Piatkowski
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posted 19 October 2007 03:28 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The link that led off this thread is a "web extra". It's also worth reading the article that actually appeared in the paper version of Maclean's, which can be found here.

Some highlights...

quote:
Still, the protestation's vintage May -- presenting herself the wronged innocent when the truth is more complex.

quote:
Behind the scenes, however, the Greens are a phosphate-free soap opera, riven by backbiting, infighting, and defections, including the departure of four executive directors since May has taken over. The Greens' new leader is alternatively heralded as the best or the worst thing to happen to the party. Her many acolytes praise her charm, her cunning, her drive, her selflessness. Her critics portray her as duplicitous, conniving, and a bully who's more interested in self-promotion than party-building. They call her E-Me, and paint a picture of a Machiavellian St. Francis of Assisi -- the plucky underdog who's also a consummate Ottawa insider, a skilled negotiator willing to do whatever it takes to save The Planet. As a politician, she's a conundrum -- less interested in acquiring power than harnessing the change power can effect.

quote:
Meanwhile, she was busy building the Sierra Club of Canada into a national presence. While heading that NGO, she participated in an advance governmental delegation planning the 1992 Rio Summit. In Elaine Dewar's 1993 book Cloak of Green, a critical look at the internecine relations between business, government and environmentalists, getting May onside for business or government is described as the equivalent of "one-stop shopping." Dewar writes: "Information or a position could be generated anywhere -- in an embassy in Brazil, in a meeting room in Washington, in a boardroom in Switzerland -- and, if fed to May, end up touted on the pages of the Globe and Mail."

quote:
During the '90s, May's Sierra Club worked closely with the Liberals to get the Kyoto Protocol ratified. Her colleague Louise Comeau, now president of the board of the Sierra Club, provided the research for Dion's controversial 2005 Kyoto plan. May applauded it, though other environmental groups, along with the Bloc and the NDP, condemned it as too weak. In Dead Centre, published in early 2007, former NDP strategist Jamey Heath calls May "the most reliable validator of Liberal policy for years."

quote:
Dan Baril says he resigned due to the deal, which he opposed, along with other frustrations that he wasn't being listened to. "I want to be careful. It's a sensitive topic," he says. "But as a strategist, I have a problem if there's a disconnect between what they're saying privately and what they're saying publicly. And when it crosses that line, I resign." (May says Baril resigned after she told him they could no longer afford his salary.) May's comments about the Dion arrangement is not the only example of a mixed message, says a party insider: "The fact is that she can, with wide-eyed persuasive sincerity, look into a camera or speak into a microphone and say something that you have been discussing in the backroom the week before and know flat out it's the antithesis of what was said."

May's approach has created friction within a party that publicly celebrates inclusiveness. "She exercises absolute total dominance of the party council and party meetings," says one who has worked with her. "She can be abrasive and aggressive; she can swear like a trooper in a closed room. The switch goes on and off -- out of the public eye she can be some kind of bully to some devoted activists." During open votes, May is said to pick up the phone and "browbeat" people until they change their vote. She is known to shift style to suit her purpose: "She is unilateral when she needs it, and turns to grassroots consensus when she wants to stop something or slow something down." One member of the executive observes that May likes to mock Harper's unilateral governance of the Conservatives: "But compared to Elizabeth, Stephen Harper is Mother Teresa."



From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 19 October 2007 03:38 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:

Oh.

What was LTUE's point again?


As I read him he is sickened by the large number of Greens who spend their time not promoting environmental issues, but attacking the NDP. As someone who has been on the receiving end of it, I understand fully what he is getting at.
If you read the post I was responding to it is a perfect illustration of that.

[ 19 October 2007: Message edited by: Bookish Agrarian ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 04:43 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:

As I read him he is sickened by the large number of Greens who spend their time not promoting environmental issues, but attacking the NDP. As someone who has been on the receiving end of it, I understand fully what he is getting at.
If you read the post I was responding to it is a perfect illustration of that.


Aren't we all sick of the other parties attacking the ones we support? I'm sick of NDPers attacking the Greens, and I'm certainly sick of seeing the Greens attack the NDP.

Pointing out faults or sharing constructive criticism - that's appropriate. Being mean is certainly not alright IMHO.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
CSM-NDP
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posted 19 October 2007 05:00 PM      Profile for CSM-NDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I knew it all along!
From: Toronto-Danforth | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 19 October 2007 05:24 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:

Aren't we all sick of the other parties attacking the ones we support? I'm sick of NDPers attacking the Greens, and I'm certainly sick of seeing the Greens attack the NDP.

Pointing out faults or sharing constructive criticism - that's appropriate. Being mean is certainly not alright IMHO.


It might help if the Greens didn't act like the Jehovah's Witness of electoral politics.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Wizard of Socialism
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posted 19 October 2007 05:31 PM      Profile for The Wizard of Socialism   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I'm sick of the so-called greens mentioning The Party in their spin. Quit trying to drag us down to your level. By talking about us, you're implying that you're in our league and nothing could be further from the truth. We're a real, legitimate party, with seats in Parliament and in legislatures across the land. We're the natural governing party of Saskatchewan. We're the originators of medicare and many, many other social programs. We're the conscience of the country, hated by some, but respected by all. You're a rag-tag bunch of malcontents who've never won a seat anywhere in your short and indecorous existence and whose sole purpose is to burn the taxpayer's money in the furnace of fringe politics producing only the thick black smoke of discontent while you fixate on your single "raison d'etre" issue - bugs before people. We play in the same league as the liberals and conservatives. You play in the league with the christian heritage and canadian nazi party. It's unseemly that you can't seem to grasp that simple point and conduct yourselves with some sort of dignity.

[ 19 October 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ]


From: A Proud Canadian! | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 05:35 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:

It might help if the Greens didn't act like the Jehovah's Witness of electoral politics.


I 100% agree with you.

It also might help if NDPers didn't act like the Alpha & Omega of the Left in electoral politics.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 October 2007 05:39 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by James Brooks:
YOU"VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME...

Actually, I would ask; "are you kidding us?"

quote:
the timing if this?

What about the timing of your asking about the timing, and your infighting words denigrating what was an elected council?

quote:
We just had a council election for our new federal council.. (the last one was incompetent,

Well now, that oughta make them sit up and keep supporting the Green Party, eh? What about the 3 Executive Directors, who walked away, were they also wrong, oh I mean incompetent, too then?

quote:
although it was a bad idea in the long run not to tell every last one of them about this deal.. (if thats what happened) I can't blame her for not wanting to!)

Sure you can! Especially for a party that touts they are different.

quote:
I'd say we are in pretty good shape!

Probably in worse shape now that you have denigrated former the National council and their supporters.

quote:
And to whomever leaked these emails... if this issue was really important to you... you should have done something about it then, not tried to sabotage us almost a year latter before a possible election!

betcha they did and E-Me did not listen.

quote:
Is hurting the Green Party and electing the old line parties for more of the same really going to make you feel better?

Oh, like the Green Party is the stopper from the "old lime parties" getting into power. That is rich and even richer considering the deal E-Me made with Dion/Liberals and her comments supporting the throne speech, and considering the Green's sole purpose is to split the left to take votes away from the NDP, plus plus, plus....

quote:
we have committees within the Green Party for this kind of stuff, why give the NDP more crap to yell out so they can take the topic off their long and accomplished history of doing nothing.

Now that is a load of BS if there ever was one.

Who are the ones who have actually done nothing? And E-Me supports them.

[ 19 October 2007: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
dgrollins
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posted 19 October 2007 07:32 PM      Profile for dgrollins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
I'm sick of the so-called greens mentioning The Party in their spin. Quit trying to drag us down to your level. By talking about us, you're implying that you're in our league and nothing could be further from the truth. We're a real, legitimate party, with seats in Parliament and in legislatures across the land. We're the natural governing party of Saskatchewan. We're the originators of medicare and many, many other social programs. We're the conscience of the country, hated by some, but respected by all. You're a rag-tag bunch of malcontents who've never won a seat anywhere in your short and indecorous existence and whose sole purpose is to burn the taxpayer's money in the furnace of fringe politics producing only the thick black smoke of discontent while you fixate on your single "raison d'etre" issue - bugs before people. We play in the same league as the liberals and conservatives. You play in the league with the christian heritage and canadian nazi party. It's unseemly that you can't seem to grasp that simple point and conduct yourselves with some sort of dignity.

[ 19 October 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ]


That reads like something that a LPC supporter would have written. The arrogance of it is staggering. The NDP is a "real" party. Those that don't vote for one of the "real" parties are without dignity, apparently.

Do you appreciate how bloody ironic that attitude is coming from a Dipper? Unless, as a NDP supporter, you're comfortable associating yourself with the political elite, privileged class that is?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 08:33 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(removed by poster)

[ 22 October 2007: Message edited by: Cameron W ]


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 October 2007 08:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of e-mail, I wonder when Macleans is going to get on top of the Chief Executive Officer of the Canadian Jewish Congress's strange internet friendship with the Jewish Defence League of Meir Kahane: The Canadian Jewish Congress, Bernie Farber, and the JDL.

[ 19 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 October 2007 11:05 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
Welcome to the thread remind. Your appearance is my cue to get my butt out of here.

Why can't answer the questions, or do you think you can pass your BS Green Party spin onto others here without it being challenged?

Oh, I forgot, you don't spin, right, forgot that for a moment. You only talk positive, while others do the spinning.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 19 October 2007 11:53 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Why can't answer the questions, or do you think you can pass your BS Green Party spin onto others here without it being challenged?

Oh, I forgot, you don't spin, right, forgot that for a moment. You only talk positive, while others do the spinning.


It was a joke. Do you ever lighten up?

Seriously though, your 'demand for answers' is off putting, and I'm tired, so you'll have to wait until I return for my reply.

Just plain rude, remind...


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
ocsi
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posted 20 October 2007 05:21 AM      Profile for ocsi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oppo-Guy:
quote:
Tough to know if it's staff or someone on the GPC's council who is the leaker.

I think the Liberals have more to gain from hurting the Greens. I think someone from the Liberal party leaked it.


From: somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
Oppo-Guy
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posted 20 October 2007 05:39 AM      Profile for Oppo-Guy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:

FYI, I was consulted as a then member of the Federal Council of the Green party of Canada.


The "consultations" sound like they were consistent with what the main Macleans article describes as May's autocratic style. As one GPC councilor writes here

quote:

Subject: Re: A selection of today's editorials
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:38:26 -0700

I was informed -- wasn't asked what I thought.....

Anyone know how many members of the Federal Council of the Green Party were consulted on May's decision to pile on with Dion in capitulating to Harper's "warm and fuzzy" throne speech that killed Kyoto in Canada?


From: here | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Life, the universe, everything
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posted 20 October 2007 07:02 AM      Profile for Life, the universe, everything     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:

Based on the PM you just sent me, I'd say that yes, you are - to use your words - 'just a lone bitter old Green'. That's unfortunate. I thought you had your tone as bitter as you could set it in the forum, but your pm - complete with name calling like 'twit' and 'poser' - showed that you can be really really offensive.

LTUE, try to be constructive, and maybe try being nice while you're at it.


First you try to get me to reveal who I am and there is at least one person here who knows me in 3d world
Then you refer to a pm, which I understand, even in my short time is a no-no.

I will reproduce it here, because it says an awful lot about the type of people who now 'own' the Green party label. How phony, duplicitous and insincere they are and void of any real values beyond destroying the left alternative.

First the accusatory, smarmy, passive aggressive initial pm sent by my friend Cam

quote:
Hey - why the hostility? Let's stop showboating and try to get along, k???
Cam

Then my response (the context of which just happened to be left out by my new friend Cam)


quote:
You are either congenially dense or intentionally stupid.
I am not showboating you offensive twit. How dare you use a dismissive word like that?
I and a lot of others gave their life blood and dedicated hours and hours of our life to built a Green party founded on deep ecology, justice and peace, just like the European Greens only to have it stolen by right wing interests who only care about baiting and attacking the NDP.
I will always be in the face of posers who have hijacked the Greens and act all high and mighty with everyone else because they are so saintly. Wake up- that is not what the Greens have become. The GPC under Harris and now May has become a shell of Green values. It is nothing but a modern remake of the two old-line parties. It isn’t even as progressive as the NDP anymore when once it was far more so.
Yep I’m pissed off. But more than that I grieve for the wasted effort, hopes and dreams of all those poor dupes people like you will hoodwink to vote for a valueless party.
Do not pm me again.

Paints quite a bit different picture there than what my friend Cam lets on. That’s how the Green party operates these days. Just make shit up, with just enough truth to sound plausible to the gullible. I noticed too, not once has my friend Cam bothered to address the abandonment of a stance of deep ecology for market force economics, the very thing that caused many of the problems in the first place. One wonders if this Green booster actually understands what deep ecology is or has heard the term before given his smarmy, passive aggressive behavior not likely.

Of course I am just mean according to my friend Cam - I couldn't actually have enough experience to understand any of these issues. With people like you and E Me (my new favourite term) no wonder the Green party has abandoned ethics and principles.


From: a little to the left - a bit more-there perfect | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 20 October 2007 07:47 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was kind of shocked to see the Greens support the Neo cons .I believe the greens get a lot of support from ex conservative and liberals and to see them fold like they did will probably send the Neocons they attracted and the Libs they attracted back from whence they came.

So whatever gains they made in the polls recently will probably be reversed. Now they look like real opportunists using the environmental platform.

I still think the NDP is the real deal and if Canadians are concerned about the environment they should support the real McCoy and not some party that for all intents and purposes seems to be there to attract voters with a left attitude and give them to a right wing scoundrel.

I'm beginning to think they were probably created by Neo cons to destroy the left. History shows the right is full dirty and deceiving tricks.I would be pretty pissed and betrayed if I was a (wannabe neo-con)green right now.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 20 October 2007 08:10 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Life, the universe, everything:

Paints quite a bit different picture there than what my friend Cam lets on.


No, it shows that you sent a rude PM to me.

Remember the Green Value of non-violence? That applies to communication as well. I've suggested that you try non-violent communication and if you're as serious about the Green Principles as you say you are I'm sure you'll consider working on this.

I'm disappointed in the lack of insight and sudden increase in personal attacks here. Can't this gang stay focussed on the issues?

Not one person here is actually asking for my personal experience on this subject. It seems you'd rather speculate, insult and spin reality.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Life, the universe, everything
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Babbler # 13982

posted 20 October 2007 08:25 AM      Profile for Life, the universe, everything     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh you poor, poor little picked upon guy.
Of course saying something about showboating is a loving embrace of peace and harmony and we should just get together and share some incense. And calling you on your crap that just means I am a big meanie- it can't possibly have anything to do with the passive agressive bile you keep spamming everyone with and the just competely made up stuff you use to justify to the gullible.

Deep ecology friend Cam - where is it in the new Green 'vision'?


From: a little to the left - a bit more-there perfect | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 20 October 2007 08:47 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
It was a joke. Do you ever lighten up?

Nice try at saying it was a joke cameron, hopefully you do not expect people to believe that. But I suspect that is too much to hope for.

As apparently, you have absolutely no idea how offensive it was to "welcome" me to the thread, basically as if I have NO right to participate, or can only do so at your behest. Because you should know that attacking the person, and/or making just a post about the person is a NO NO, here.

And to answer your question, yes I do lighten up here, just not in BS political threads, particularily ones that are furiously spinning things, while denying they are doing so.

quote:
Seriously though, your 'demand for answers' is off putting,

My demand for answers? There was no demand, there was a statement, that had a rhetorical question mark at the end. The rhetorical nature of it was proven by your disregarding the questions, not once but twice.

quote:
and I'm tired, so you'll have to wait until I return for my reply.
Though your ego may not be able to handle this, I will say it anyway, frankly I was not awaiting any response, nor would I ever from you. As any response is, would be, pure spin and BS, or as we can see, outright avoidance.

quote:
Just plain rude, remind...

sorry, my comments do not meet any "rude" criteria, what is/was rude, is the comments of personal nature about my joining the thread and the following "eeks'. But I suspect you have no capacity to self reflect in any way shape or form so.....


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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Babbler # 10767

posted 20 October 2007 08:55 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Nice try at saying it was a joke cameron, hopefully you do not expect people to believe that. But I suspect that is too much to hope for.

No, seriously, it was meant as a joke. Lighten up.

Are you seriously suggesting I tried to power trip by formally 'welcoming' you to the thread, as if I had some kind of authority in the thread and you were but a guest? That's not the case at all, and you're getting excited over nothing.

I can see how you specifically might take issue with me jokingly 'welcoming' you to the thread.

And now, I apologize for trying to be funny. It always backfires in this forum.

also apologize to you remind. I didn't mean to be rude.




From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 20 October 2007 09:13 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gosh, Cameron, you are doing well. Publicizing private communications to portray another participant in a poor light. Spinning while accusing others of doing so, and claiming that you dispise the practice. Being rude while objecting to others behaving rudely. Then complaining about "lack of insight and sudden increase in personal attacks here. Can't this gang stay focussed on the issues?"

Now, using the old trope of a humourless woman being too excited to contribute intelligently to discussion.

Impressive.

We are sorry to disappoint you so profoundly once again.

I wish you luck in your search for more highly evolved individuals, such as yourself.

"Not one person here is actually asking for my personal experience on this subject."

If I were you, I'd be asking myself why this would be. And not dump on others for basing their current behaviour on past events.

I would not "speculate, insult and spin" by asserting that others want to "speculate, insult and spin" instead of asking me what I know.

All in order to duck some uncomfortable truths about my own behaviour, and how it has affected my relationships to others on this board.

[ 20 October 2007: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10767

posted 20 October 2007 09:21 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
Publicizing private communications to portray another participant in a poor light.

While your alliteration is dazzling and daring, I have to remind you that I was only joking with remind. I guess it was a mistake.

I didn't post the entire private message that LTUE sent me; only the name calling. Wouldn't you also bring attention to bullying?


- - - - -


Back on subject, I wonder what the source for this poorly written article was. Macleans seems to be trying to make something out of nothing. When I was with Federal Council we all got along very well. Even when disagreeing, GPC council did a good job of working for the party members and doing the right things.

It's my opinion that Elizabeth May is fun to work with!


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Life, the universe, everything
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Babbler # 13982

posted 20 October 2007 09:31 AM      Profile for Life, the universe, everything     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Writer don't you understand as a woman you don't get to say what the topic is -just follow along with Cameron. He'll tell you what is important and funny.

And Cameron YOU, no one else, refered to a pm. YOU, no one else, used words taken out of context to deflect from YOUR behaviour and YOUR advoidance of addressing issues in any real or substantive way. All the while boo-hooing that others were not being nice.

You friend Cam are doing more to discredit your cause than even the most partisan person on this board.

[ 20 October 2007: Message edited by: Life, the universe, everything ]


From: a little to the left - a bit more-there perfect | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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Babbler # 10767

posted 20 October 2007 09:40 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Life, the universe, everything:
Writer don't you understand as a woman you don't get to say what the topic is -just follow along with Cameron. He'll tell you what is important and funny.

Are you accusing me of sexism and discrimination?!? Personal attacks aplenty here at babble once again.

This article has so many glaring errors I just don't know where to start.

Say, why is there no more discussion on the actual thread topic? Let's end the thread drift and look at why the Green Party has become such a newsworthy subject. As the scrappy voice of hope, the Greens seem to be attracting support from real people and fabricated criticism from partisan journalists.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 20 October 2007 09:43 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Life, the universe, everything:
YOUR advoidance of addressing issues in any real or substantive way.

The issues and solutions to them are spelled out HERE, and if you want to discuss them then let's get to it.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Life, the universe, everything
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Babbler # 13982

posted 20 October 2007 09:45 AM      Profile for Life, the universe, everything     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You clearly implided in your passive agressive way that writer was off topic and you were the 'decider' who gets to determine what is and isn't on topic. It might not be sexism, but it is pretty damn dismissive.
From: a little to the left - a bit more-there perfect | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Life, the universe, everything
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Babbler # 13982

posted 20 October 2007 09:49 AM      Profile for Life, the universe, everything     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:

The issues and solutions to them are spelled out HERE, and if you want to discuss them then let's get to it.


Oh that's right all I have to do is accept the Green document is the light and illumination and all will become clear. I can't actually have read it, considered it and realized it is full of bs meaningless statements and with a pretty right-wing economic base.
If I think it is full of crap I just can't have read it. The light illumine me, I really must just accept what the all knowing and powerful intelect at the Green party tell me is true. It couldn't be that they are just trying to get me to vote for them with vague generalities, a few motherhood statements and a plan based on discredited Reagonomics with a green twist tie?


From: a little to the left - a bit more-there perfect | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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Babbler # 10767

posted 20 October 2007 09:53 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ocsi:

I think the Liberals have more to gain from hurting the Greens. I think someone from the Liberal party leaked it.


Why do you think that?


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 20 October 2007 10:31 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wouldn't you also bring attention to bullying?

To the moderator, as appropriate, yes. If I really believed it was bullying.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 20 October 2007 10:46 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
Are you accusing me of sexism and discrimination?!?

He may not be, but I am.

quote:
Personal attacks aplenty here at babble once again.

All started and carried out by YOU Cameron. Others, such as myself, were pointing out YOUR attacks, NOT attacking YOU.

quote:
This article has so many glaring errors I just don't know where to start.
If it had so many errors you would KNOW where to start. The inability to do so suggests you have not received your talking points to try and spin it, as of yet.

quote:
Say, why is there no more discussion on the actual thread topic?

Because Camaeron, you decided to deflect away with personal attacks and sexist commentary.

quote:
Let's end the thread drift

Oh, I see, you want to start it, conduct and finish it, so you can believe we are all at your whim.

quote:
and look at why the Green Party has become such a newsworthy subject.

Yes, let's do look at it, I always like discussing how publicity, no matter how negative, is a good thing.

quote:
As the scrappy voice of hope,

WOW, is that going to be the "new" Green catch phrase? If so, hate to tell you this but it is doomed to fail.

quote:
the Greens seem to be attracting support from real people and fabricated criticism from partisan journalists.

Amazing, just amazing, your inability to see your actions and patriarchial arrogance knows no bounds it seems.

[ 20 October 2007: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 20 October 2007 11:03 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
... the Liberals have an ace up their sleeve, which every poll shows to be a real force, the Green Party. The prospects of Elizabeth May pushing Dion, which yesterday's "convergence" only validates, could be pure gold when push comes to shove, in the dying days of a campaign. I'm not suggesting the Green vote isn't real, in fact I believe it is, but if itwere to move, it is hard to see it not drift to the Liberal column.

Far and Wide


quote:
Dion drew the loudest laughs as he read press releases from environmental groups who accuse the Tories of cancelling Liberal programs and replacing them with inferior ones.

"And I quote the Sierra Club," Dion began.

"Federal programs were slashed and the importance of climate change was downplayed. An entire year was lost. End of quote.

"But I continue to quote the Sierra Club. . ."

Elizabeth May, the Green party leader, nodded her head in silent agreement from the visitors' gallery.

KENONCANPOLITICS (quoting from a CP news story)


quote:
... thanks Elizabeth May, for demonstrating that you believe your most important role and that of the Green Party is unflinching obsequious support for the Liberal Party, not the environment.

Rusty Idols


quote:
Elizabeth May, leader of the Green Party, listened to the Conservative Throne Speech. In it, the government made it clear that Kyoto was no longer a concern. The targets could not be reached, and there was no interest in even trying.

Her response to Mike Duffy during an interview last night? That's fine. We don't need to fight an election over this.

You could almost see the strings reaching up to the rafters where Liberal Party leader Stephane Dion was pulling on his Green puppet.

angry in the great white north


[ 20 October 2007: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10767

posted 20 October 2007 12:37 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
sexist commentary

When was that?

I know that nothing will ever be good enough for you remind and writer. I imagine you're both great people, but in here you are both very challenging and very hard to communicate with.

Remind, would you like me to remove my original comment (that I remind you was supposed to be a joke) that offended you so greatly? Say the word and I'll remove it. No attempt at humor, no matter how lighthearted and innocent, is worth this amount of fury and wrath.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 20 October 2007 12:42 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CameronW, are you now claiming that your troubles at babble are only with remind and me? Nice deflection from the links I provided above, BTW.

Carry on!

[ 20 October 2007: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 20 October 2007 05:04 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
When was that?
Well have alook below for your most recent.

quote:
I know that nothing will ever be good enough for you remind and writer. I imagine you're both great people, but in here you are both very challenging and very hard to communicate with.

Oh, yes first the token gratuitous "positive" comments, followed by basically telling us we are "uppity" females. why? Because we call you on your "spin free" pap, that you apparently believe is beyond others BS detection skills here.

quote:
Remind, would you like me to remove my original comment (that I remind you was supposed to be a joke) that offended you so greatly?

Oh no, carry on, just like those do, who make racist/bigoted jokes do not see why their target butt of the jokes does not find them amusing, and keep on telling them anyway.

quote:
Say the word and I'll remove it. No attempt at humor, no matter how lighthearted and innocent, is worth this amount of fury and wrath.

Now really, you do not expect us to believe this was light hearted "goofing around" for a moment do you? Well, on the other hand, perhaps you do.

Here is an observation, I do not.

Just as your slimmy action of putting LTUE's pm out in public, and out of contextual value, followed by the gall to call him a bully, is no innocent "positive" occurance.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 20 October 2007 05:32 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Life I have to thank you. I just came in from 18 hours or so of combining and just thought I would veg and watch the baseball game. I thought about just emailing you at home, but I am sitting here howling with laughter and have to share.

It might take a Librarian to notice but it is just busting my gut that not only did you expose and dissect young Mr. Cameron but you managed to work into so many cheeky references I can’t but help giggle.

Let’s see if I got them all, but in three threads in two days you worked in references to Douglas Adams (of course ) but also, blood and ashes Robert Jordon, David Eddings, and it I am not mistaken Bernard Cornwell, Jonathan Kellerman and Jeffery Deaver.
2Finfunny.

I feel kind of sorry for your friend Cam, he obviously has no idea who or what he is up against. I think you should start a thread, as someone from the family of one of the earliest pioneers of organics in Canada on organic farming so that Cameron can explain to you why you just don’t understand why the Wal Martization of organics is a good thing because it comes from the market.

A warning though if you start working in puns from Piers Anthony I am coming over and pinching your bottom you naughty boy.

Cameron a number of posters have asked you direct questions which you respond to with silly regugitaion of Green TPs. So I will ask one too.
I am fascinated that you never responded to the questions about deep ecology. I'm not an expert, but I know enough to take Life at his word. What did happen to the Green commitment to deep ecology? I remember being subjected to a lecture by a Green back in the early to mid-90s about why the NDP was out of touch because we didn't understand it. So where did it go - out to dinner with E Me's ethics.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10767

posted 20 October 2007 06:50 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:

Cameron a number of posters have asked you direct questions which you respond to with silly regugitaion of Green TPs.


Don't be silly. I do my best to have fruitful discussions here, but some members would rather spend their time making personal attacks and hurling insults and false accusations.

quote:

What did happen to the Green commitment to deep ecology? I remember being subjected to a lecture by a Green back in the early to mid-90s about why the NDP was out of touch because we didn't understand it. So where did it go

I have an idea of where you'd like this discussion to go. Even if I wrote you a lengthy essay complete with links to current GPC members work in the area of deep ecology, or pointed you in the direction of policies that follow this concept, you'd likely not hear the facts.

It's really very partisan; on one side are NDpers accusing the Greens of being 'far left of Left', putting the 'Earth first' possibly at the 'expense of humanity', and the Cons try to frame the GPC that way as well, and then you have some saying the Greens are 'too far Right' and have lost their 'Earth first' values.

Well, the Green Party has a place for everyone, but you gotta want to be a productive contributing member. At the same time, the GPC isn't all things to all people, and I expect there will always be vocal critics - especially the partisan ones.

I've spent a lot of energy trying to shake off the personal attacks and communicate here, but for some strange reason a few sour grapes always find their way to the threads I'm posting in and mess up the vibe.

Not very enjoyable actually.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Wizard of Socialism
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posted 20 October 2007 07:44 PM      Profile for The Wizard of Socialism   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Then give that shit up and begin to live righteously, brother cameron. For though thou art a so-called green infidel, beyond hope and beneath contempt - I believe that NOBODY, no matter how far they have fallen, is beyond salvation. All you have to say is "People Matter More." People matter more than bugs. People matter more than itchy algae. People matter more than seaweed. People matter more than lower order crustaceans. You may not believe it, but sooner or later you might. Because it's true. And not even the darkness of so-called greendom can block the light of truth forever...

[ 20 October 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ]


From: A Proud Canadian! | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 20 October 2007 08:25 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Youre far worse than any "Tory with a composter" as Stockholm puts it. You're a blatant and baiting rightwinger who dares to call himself a socialist on a progressive board.

Let me give you another clue, known to real NDPers and Greens alike, it's not a question of us being more important than "seaweed", as you so contempuously put it, it's understanding that we depend on these other beings for our own survival.

And no, the Greens are NOt the "worst" party around, the Cons are much worse, but thanks for giving your last shred of crebibility away.

[ 20 October 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 20 October 2007 08:58 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
I've spent a lot of energy trying to shake off the personal attacks and communicate here, but for some strange reason a few sour grapes always find their way to the threads I'm posting in and mess up the vibe.

Not very enjoyable actually.


Oh please, give it a rest Cameron, no one is buying into it, you started the whole thread drift, and the attacks and now your whinning victim because us uppity women won't take your crap and propaganda.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 21 October 2007 07:06 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure what if funnier my friend Life's cheeky literary allusions, or Camerons dellusions. It is a hard call actually.

Cameron no one has attacked you. They have challenged you. That is quite a bit different.

From the pm Life revealed, and which you quoted out of context, your behaviour in public and behind the scenes are rather different. Sort of the perfect illistration of your party actually come to think of it.

I asked about deep ecology within Green party policies, not the no doubt good work individual Greens are doing in their private lives. If you can't point to it in policy that suggests, as Life alleges, it has been abandoned for a non-regulatory market driven approach. The Green party has a responsibility to all voters to explain why the approach has changed.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 October 2007 10:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God, where to start?

Let's start with Wiz, who is being obnoxious in this thread. Once again, I will ask you to stop addressing Green Party supporters on babble in such a disrespectful and nasty manner. It does nothing to contribute to the discussion, nor to the atmosphere.

Cameron, I've just about had it with your constant complaints about how people treat you here, when you are so often smarmy and insulting. Here's a clue: if you don't want people to send you angry private messages, maybe don't SEND them condescending private messages to begin with and then whine to the moderator when you get your own back. There's nothing I despise more than people complaining to me about private messages and then discovering that they either exaggerated or took it out of the context of the conversation. It's a waste of my moderating time.

Secondly, within this thread, Cameron, you complain again about remind's behaviour in this thread when you were the first one to be insulting. Oh gosh golly, it was all just jokes, you say! Well, guess what? Given your history here, it's not "funny" to tell someone that when they enter a thread, it's your cue to leave. It's just obnoxious. And so is turning the thread into a big discussion about you and how badly you're treated after you pull these little baiting games with the other participants here.

That said, it sure would be nice if everyone else could learn to resist such bait.

It would be lovely if this thread could get back on course, without slurs at the Green Party members on babble, and without these cutesy little baits and jabs, and also without everyone having to read private mail soap operas.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10767

posted 21 October 2007 10:41 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Cameron, I've just about had it with your constant complaints about how people treat you here, when you are so often smarmy and insulting.


Apologies for my behavior.

While I haven't directly called anyone names, or cursed, I have engaged in fruitless debate that has ended up coming across more like head games that positive discussions. And I can reflect and see that my attempt at a joke was out of line. Sorry remind.

I DO want fruitful debate, and I'm sorry that I let some forum members here bait me into negative back and forth off topic jabs.

I'll take your feedback as a positive criticism of my posts here.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 21 October 2007 10:48 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm re-posting this in the hope we can talk about the Liberal/Green arrangement. Here's opinion about May's behaviour at the time of the throne speech, by bloggers with a range of political viewpoints:

quote:
... the Liberals have an ace up their sleeve, which every poll shows to be a real force, the Green Party. The prospects of Elizabeth May pushing Dion, which yesterday's "convergence" only validates, could be pure gold when push comes to shove, in the dying days of a campaign. I'm not suggesting the Green vote isn't real, in fact I believe it is, but if itwere to move, it is hard to see it not drift to the Liberal column.

Far and Wide


quote:
Dion drew the loudest laughs as he read press releases from environmental groups who accuse the Tories of cancelling Liberal programs and replacing them with inferior ones.

"And I quote the Sierra Club," Dion began.

"Federal programs were slashed and the importance of climate change was downplayed. An entire year was lost. End of quote.

"But I continue to quote the Sierra Club. . ."

Elizabeth May, the Green party leader, nodded her head in silent agreement from the visitors' gallery.

KENONCANPOLITICS (quoting from a CP news story)


quote:
... thanks Elizabeth May, for demonstrating that you believe your most important role and that of the Green Party is unflinching obsequious support for the Liberal Party, not the environment.

Rusty Idols


quote:
Elizabeth May, leader of the Green Party, listened to the Conservative Throne Speech. In it, the government made it clear that Kyoto was no longer a concern. The targets could not be reached, and there was no interest in even trying.

Her response to Mike Duffy during an interview last night? That's fine. We don't need to fight an election over this.

You could almost see the strings reaching up to the rafters where Liberal Party leader Stephane Dion was pulling on his Green puppet.

angry in the great white north


[ 21 October 2007: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10767

posted 21 October 2007 11:05 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll repost this to assist in getting the thread back on track.

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:

I covered this whole subject a while back on my blog.

FYI, I was consulted as a then member of the Federal Council of the Green party of Canada.

Obviously this was a big announcement, and not everyone from both parties was happy about it. Click on the link to my blog post to see what I think about it.[/QB]


As for the article focusing on mostly unsourced gossip, I'm disappointed in this author and in Macleans. This is akin to giving climate change deniers equal media time, even though they are few and far between.

From my experience, the Greens are getting better organized and working better than they ever have, and the Greens will continue to improve important things like internal communications, fundraising and policy development, as they gain more support.

I thought federal council was working well together over the last year, as most GPC councilors did. There was open communication, respectful listening and productive discussion.

And the GPC Leader - who is the spokesperson for the party - listened to direction from Federal Council, and the GPC federal council listened to direction from the general membership of the party.

Elizabeth May has said that she thinks she is the best choice for Prime Minister, not Dion. I think Harper is the worst choice.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 21 October 2007 11:12 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's another Green perspective, from the party's blog:

quote:
I'm a new member of the federal council, and I'm a bit naive. I think that if in future councillors disagree with how things are going inside the GP, you should resign, not bitch to a reporter and leak emails. It's called solidarity, folks. (It's also called "maturity".)

That said, I would like GPC to 1) stop saying Harper is Satan 2) distance ourselves from Dion as a parliamentary system requires 3) build some depth in our leadership.

Maclean's Magazine Rips Elizabeth May



From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 21 October 2007 11:14 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also from that blog...

quote:
What they're saying is that the honeymoon is over, and the Greens need to be subjected to the same level of criticism as other major parties. You're not a major party until the media rips your leader :-)

In this article, ignoring the catty bits, Elizabeth comes across as smart, complex, manipulative, connected - these are all Good Things for a party leader.


I think this is a great blog post, and I'm glad to see that GPC bloggers are getting noticed.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 21 October 2007 11:16 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi Michelle
I hear you and for contributing to the mess I apologize. All though in my own defense I did do an 18 hour stint in the combine. My twisted sense of humor was obviously more twisted than usual.
I'm a bit more rested and now can see I wasn't helping. Although I still have trouble not giggling a bit.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 21 October 2007 11:18 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cameron, and thank you for finally noticing that I post stuff from that blog! I've been doing it for quite a long time now!!

Terrific!


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Oppo-Guy
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Babbler # 4159

posted 22 October 2007 08:34 AM      Profile for Oppo-Guy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What the #*%#??

quote:
"At midnight, per tradition, the Balsam fir is stripped of decorations -- of the angel fashioned from a Sunlight bottle, of the Star of David made of pipe cleaners -- and tossed out the front door."

The leader of Canada's Green Party -- the woman who claims to put "doing the right thing" ahead of winning seats (or telling the truth for that matter) -- chops down a REAL christmas tree for display in her house?

Reminicant of this story in which May calls herself a strict vegetarian -- a strict vegetarian who eats shrimp and lobster??

It's no wonder May and Dion get along so famously. Both have principles like silly-putty.


From: here | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 22 October 2007 08:59 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With respect Oppo-Guy, I don't really care what kind of Christmas tree EM has, or whether she eats shrimp, or the fact that Sunlight detergent is not environmentally friendly. She's holier than thou, and I think we just need to accept that (as most of the media have done).

But, something else caught my eye in your second link.

quote:
Though her journey to parliament is still just a dream, Ms. May–just like Jack Layton, who was not an MP when he was chosen as leader of the NDP–is always on the Hill at Question Period. Courtesy of House Speaker Peter Milliken, she's been assigned a seat in the diplomatic gallery. Mr. Layton, she says, had it easy. He was allowed into the foyer and this enabled him to do scrums with reporters. For a while, she was allowed into the hallways to talk to the media, but that quickly changed.

"Someone complained. I don't know who, but I can guess," she says.


Let me explain it to you, EM. It has something to do with the fact that "voters" chose to "elect" NDP MPs in the previous "election". That gave them something called "seats" and, more importantly, "party status". That included the right to invite guests into the opposition lobby and the halls of parliament.

I can guess who complained too. It was probably somebody who understands how parliamentary democracy works.

Of course, May says that the Greens are going to elect MPs in the next election, so she'll get to see how it works first hand.

Where, you ask?

quote:
The possibilities in Nova Scotia include two seats in Cape Breton and one on the mainland. Out West, in Tory-blue Alberta, she thinks a Green MP will be elected, although no one believes her, she says. Add to the list a riding in northern Saskatchewan, some in Ontario, one possibility in Quebec and "of course, if I run in Atlantic Canada, we have to win at least one seat." If her predictions come to pass, there will be a clutch of Green MPs accompanying Ms. May to the House of Commons.

The two seats in Cape Breton? The ones that you've refused to run in because you didn't want to run against "a friend" or, more importantly, a Liberal incumbent.

One in the mainland? It won't be Central Nova, so what other one did you have in mind? I hear Bill Casey is looking for a party.

One in Northern Saskatchewan? A little vague, but perhaps they'll run in the Churchill River by-election.

One in Alberta? Please specify.

One in Quebec? Please specify, and please also explain why the Green vote went down in the three recent by-elections (compared to 2006).

Some in Ontario? How many? Which ones?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 22 October 2007 09:10 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"She cuts trees you know" and "a vegetarian who eats shrimp" is pretty petty.

Even before that, I find this "leaked email" thing much ado about nothing when compared to what EMay is doing now: slavishly following the lead of Dion even on climate change non-action.

And once again, responding to that with 'she would have had to advocate bringing the government down' is a red herring / straw man.

She not only advocated giving the government a general pass- but even gave them a pass on the climate change file [calling it 'vague' to provide cover for Dion] when Harper spells out in the Throne Speech that it's not just that we aren't to meet the moot 2012 targets... he gives the essntial details for delaying forever!

[If people missed the discussions of that, it was in the Throne Speech thread.]

[ 22 October 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 22 October 2007 10:34 AM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The election of Stephen Harper changed my life

This strikes me as better journalism than the first gossip oriented story linked to above.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 22 October 2007 11:18 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
This strikes me as better journalism than the first gossip oriented story linked to above.

By which you mean that it's the sort of fawning non-analysis that the Green Party has come to expect?

Further to my points above (which Cameron has thus far managed to ignore)

quote:
But Ms. May says that running in Cape Breton would pit her against the sitting Liberal MP, Rodger Cuzner, who won 53 per cent of the vote in 2006. And running against a Liberal incumbent would deflate the central message of her election campaign -- that voters must get rid of Mr. Harper's Conservatives.

"I could picture Roger saying, 'Well then, buddy, why would they vote for you? They've got to vote for me'," she said.

"What I do locally has to work nationally, and what I do nationally has to work locally. The only way to do that is to challenge a sitting member of the Harper government. And, how lucky, Peter MacKay is right there."


Exactly. Why would anyone vote Green in the rest of the country when you've already endorsed Stephane ("My dog's name is Kyoto, but I never did anything to honour it") Dion for Prime Minister and told people that the primary goal of the next election is to unseat Harper at all costs.

Incidentally, there "luckily" happens to be a Conservative Cabinet Minister in Ottawa -- the city where May has actually lived for two and a half decades. His name is John Baird and he's the Minister of Environment. But, maybe the Liberals wouldn't agree cut to a backroom deal in Ottawa West.

I feel bad for Green Party members who have worked for years to build their party, only to see it turned into the environmental caucus of the Liberals.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
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posted 22 October 2007 11:28 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But Ms. May says that running in Cape Breton would pit her against the sitting Liberal MP, Rodger Cuzner, who won 53 per cent of the vote in 2006. And running against a Liberal incumbent would deflate the central message of her election campaign -- that voters must get rid of Mr. Harper's Conservatives.

PS: Roger Cuzner is an extreme rightwinger in the Liberal party. He has been an implacable opponet of same sex marriage and he also voted for canada to stay in Afghanistan for two more years. But i guess that's good enough for Elizabeth May!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 22 October 2007 12:26 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
But, something else caught my eye in your second link.

Good catch Scott.

quote:
Mr. Layton, she says, had it easy. He was allowed into the foyer and this enabled him to do scrums with reporters. For a while, she was allowed into the hallways to talk to the media, but that quickly changed.

"Someone complained. I don't know who, but I can guess," she says.



This type of drive by smears casting aspertions, while coming from a completely wrong position, appears to be the hallmark of the Green Party, as represented by E-Me above by herself and others here.

Thinks it sounds good apparently, and that people are too stupid to pick up on the fact the 2 situations are not at all similar, and she is breaking parliamentary proceedure and it is amazing that she apparently thinks she has a right to.

And of course, your very valid questions asking for proof went unanswered just as mine were.

The Green veneer is not even there anymore, covering up the lack of substance that the Green Party has.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10767

posted 22 October 2007 12:36 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
By which you mean that it's the sort of fawning non-analysis that the Green Party has come to expect?

No, by which I mean that it's a fair analysis of the Leader of the Green Party of Canada rather than an attack piece by a right-wing magazine. For analysis, neither of these pieces are very good examples, but you can find excellent exploration of Green Party policies in many places and by many reputable journalists.
Here's a link to a few.

quote:
Why would anyone vote Green in the rest of the country

Why do hundreds of thousands of Canadians vote Green in the last federal election? Why did so many voters go Green in Ontario? I'm glad you asked.

There are many reasons. A vote for the Green Party is a vote for hope. A vote for change. Aside from the protest vote, many people vote for the Green Party because they have policies and a platform that covers all issues.

quote:

I feel bad for Green Party members who have worked for years to build their party, only to see it turned into the environmental caucus of the Liberals.

I'm one of those members, and what you say has happened isn't the case at all. The Green Party is an independent national party.

Saying that the Green Party is the "environmental caucus of the Liberals" is like saying that the NDP is the 'vote splitting tag team partner of the Harper government'.

It's just not true.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1299

posted 22 October 2007 01:03 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
No, by which I mean that it's a fair analysis of the Leader of the Green Party of Canada...

The only "analysis" I saw in the article was of her recipe for homemade bread.

quote:
Why do hundreds of thousands of Canadians vote Green in the last federal election? Why did so many voters go Green in Ontario? I'm glad you asked.

Actually, what I asked was why anyone would in the next federal election, under the situation that May has created. Please respond to the question asked, not the one that you want to answer (since you so detest spin).

quote:
I'm one of those members, and what you say has happened isn't the case at all. The Green Party is an independent national party.

Saying that the Green Party is the "environmental caucus of the Liberals" is... just not true.


I was going to say that you were deluding yourself, but you may have a point. May's response to the "warm and fuzzy" Throne Speech means that the Green Party doesn't even have the credibility to be considered the environmental caucus of the Liberals.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10767

posted 22 October 2007 01:25 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
Actually, what I asked was why anyone would in the next federal election, under the situation that May has created.

I already did here.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
sandpiper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10581

posted 22 October 2007 01:34 PM      Profile for sandpiper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh stop promoting your blog, man.
From: HRM | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 22 October 2007 01:56 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
A vote for the Green Party is a vote for hope.

Hope for what?

quote:
A vote for change.

Change to what?

quote:
The Green Party is an independent national party.

Yes, independant of the NDP, CPC and Bloc.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
1weasel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11633

posted 22 October 2007 11:14 PM      Profile for 1weasel        Edit/Delete Post
Out of curiousity, who is picking up the tab for May's Toyota Prius or the Central Nova house? I imagine the paltry $50,000 salary would be severely stretched paying for those items.
From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
FlungPup
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Babbler # 14541

posted 23 October 2007 02:23 PM      Profile for FlungPup     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe she'll sell some Christmas trees.
From: In My Own Mind Somewhere | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged

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