babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » current events   » canadian politics   » GREENS SAY !Legalize and commercialize the Afghan poppy crop!

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: GREENS SAY !Legalize and commercialize the Afghan poppy crop!
salubrious
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14448

posted 05 September 2007 04:42 PM      Profile for salubrious        Edit/Delete Post
Did not see this here so,


http://www.greenparty.ca/en/releases/08.29.2007


Its the right policy I think.

GREEN? for a return to sane government policy even just by idea suggestions?

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/policy/documents/P4M
(indepth)


From: Vancouver ,BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 05:21 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Green Party is making the same mistake as all the other superior Godlike beings that think they will bring Western values to the Afghan people.

Like their militarist invading counterparts, the Greens should (how to say this politely?) fuck off. The Afghan people will decide what to do with their own crops and their own country. They don't need the likes of Elizabeth May to help them.

Sorry for the rude word.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9443

posted 05 September 2007 05:23 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does Elizabeth May believe that marginalizing the drug lords and warlords will be easily done?
From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 05:28 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Webgear:
Does Elizabeth May believe that marginalizing the drug lords and warlords will be easily done?

Elizabeth May should definitely get a boarding pass and leave for Kabul asap and help those poor backward people turn poppies into Tylenol. Her Christian sympathy for the less fortunate obviously knows no bounds. Let me know when she's leaving, and I'll throw her a farewell party to remember.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11260

posted 05 September 2007 05:44 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not quite following you here, unionist. How is commercializing the Afghan poppy crop a bad thing, as opposed to destroying it as part of the ongoing boondogle of the American war on drugs?

Considering that Afghanistan produces 90% of the world's opium, not commercializing it keeps the prices of opioid pain-relieving drugs higher than it has to be.


From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 05:47 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
I'm not quite following you here, unionist. How is commercializing the Afghan poppy crop a bad thing, as opposed to destroying it as part of the ongoing boondogle of the American war on drugs?

It's not a bad thing. It's none of Elizabeth May's business, or mine, or yours. We don't decide for others, especially not when we have soldiers there with weapons killing people. Is there something unclear about my view? Just ask and I'll elaborate.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
redflag
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12372

posted 05 September 2007 05:51 PM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm under the impression that the reason that the Afghan opium is not currently being exploited for pharmaceutical purposes is because the types of plants grown in Afghanistan are not of the variety which the capitalists find suitable for extracting profits... err.... the tar substance which is converted to pain medication.

What I mean to say is that I heard on CBC radio from a guy with the British National Health Service that they don't want to use Afghan opium to make drugs because the tar substance which comes out of the Afghan plants is not as pure as the stuff which they grow elsewhere and use to make drugs.

ETA: As the Afghan crop is less pure, it's harder to extract the stuff that's useful. This makes it more expensive to refine and thus less suitable for the interests of generating profits and making money off the misery of others.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Joshua Kubinec ]


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
scooter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5548

posted 05 September 2007 06:28 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unionist, Turkey has a legal poppy industry that has been very successful for the government and farmers. It is an excellant model to follow and one of the rare times where the USA didn't get in the way of a good policy.

For more details see,
The Political History of Turkey's Opium Licensing System for Production of Medicines: Lessons for Afghanistan, by The Senlis Council.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 06:32 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
Unionist, Turkey has a legal poppy industry that has been very successful for the government and farmers. It is an excellant model to follow and one of the rare times where the USA didn't get in the way of a good policy.

I agree with you, and with Senlis. I hope the Afghans have a good look at this model - in the course of driving out the invaders and their puppets. We Canadians are ill-placed to recommend economic and agricultural strategy to a people whom we are invading and murdering.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 05 September 2007 06:54 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did anyone elect Taliban to power in Afghanistan? What gives them any legitimacy as the government of Afghanistan?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 06:58 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Did anyone elect Taliban to power in Afghanistan? What gives them any legitimacy as the government of Afghanistan?

True to form, Stockholm is the first to raise the "Taliban" in this thread - because for him, either the U.S. and NATO and its puppets rule, or else the Taliban rules.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 05 September 2007 07:05 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who else is there??? There seem to be two sides in Afghanistan, NATO and its puppets and Taliban. There is no middle ground.

My attitude is that both sides are so horrible that maybe the best thing for the world would be for there to never be a winner in the war and let the two equally horrible sides just keep fighting each other forever. As long as Taliban and the warlord-backed Karzai forces keep killing each other - they are not killing people in the rest of the world.

It's kind of like what Kissinger said during the Iran-Iraq War - if only they could both lose.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 07:09 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

My attitude is that both sides are so horrible that maybe the best thing for the world would be for there to never be a winner in the war and let the two equally horrible sides just keep fighting each other forever.

As long as you support the NDP's call for troop withdrawal now, I don't care what other zany positions you choose to embrace. But your "U.S. or Taliban" dichotomy gives me pause as to whether your thinking is up to NDP standards.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 05 September 2007 07:15 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If there is any other side in Afghanistan, I'd like to know who it is. You might fantasize about there being a leftwing socialist secular movement in Afghanistan that wants to bring about equality for women and also kick out western interests - but that is just a fantasy - no such force exists.

Right now there is a civil war being fought between Taliban and the Karzai government. There is no third force and I don't recall Taliban saying "all we want is to have a free election".


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6535

posted 05 September 2007 07:18 PM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
currently there is a global shortage of morphine, the poppies could be processed into morphine, legally, and would get farmers some wealth.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 07:18 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great, Stockholm, you've made your stand clear. I'll stick with Jack Layton and Tom Mulcair on this one. With "support" like yours, they'll need all the help they can get.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 07:19 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TemporalHominid:
currently there is a global shortage of morphine, the poppies could be processed into morphine, legally, and would get farmers on side and wealthier.

And once they were "on side", then what? They'd let us stay and build that pipeline?

What do we want them "on side" with?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 05 September 2007 07:28 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I feel that Afghanistan is too worthless for Canadians to be dying over, so I want us out. But that being said, there are no "good guys" in the civil war there. There is bad and worse. You can try to fantasize about Taliban being to Afghanistan like what the loyalists were to Spain in 1936, or even the Vietcong in Vietnam - but I'm afraid it just isn't the same. There are two sides and only two sides fighting in Afghanistan and neither has any redeeming features whatsoever. I'm glad i don't live there and i don't have to take sides.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
salubrious
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14448

posted 05 September 2007 07:35 PM      Profile for salubrious        Edit/Delete Post
Well , I stand on record as saying that at the end of the western worlds conflict in Afghanistan , this will be happening.
This will be what happens with out a doubt.

Canada having lost what 70 people ? so far in this , most of thse in the last 2 years, in fact we have lost 90% of all our casualties over just these last 2 years and yet all of our media says always its from 2002 to make it seem like less.(8 people lost in the first 5 years)

If the two biggest superpowers in the world were unable to tame these eastern citizens from their ways what makes us super hero's?

They don't know about our Dudley Do-right over there as in their minds he wore a Blue Beret , but I am sure with the right rule in place, most noticeably the golden rule first and fore most (the man with the gold rules)things will just fall in to place. In fact I would bet on this out come!
Its how the conflict in Turkey ended in 1974 and will most certainly happen here.

Sadly it takes standing up to the pharmaceutical company that produces Oxycontin (at much higher prices)(Afghan opium isn't as pure,,ha-ha , ha-ha) who happens to have George Bush & the Chaney crew as major stock holders. Yes I know pure coincidence.

I got your take on it ,though , really.
I just also totally disagree with some of you.

But then I have served in Canada's Armed Forces and have my veteran plate. ha-ha

The NDP had this report a year ago and chose to hide from it.
I spoke to Steven Lewis and Jack Layton about it myself.

Takes courage to stop blind stupidity.
Takes guts , sorry Jack.

The Greens seem to have this courage and stand poised to have a major break through in my humble opinion.

We shall see.


From: Vancouver ,BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
melovesproles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8868

posted 05 September 2007 07:43 PM      Profile for melovesproles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see anything wrong with May's call for a smarter approach to opium in Afghanistan, but the fact is we as a country are spending a ton of cash on fighting farmers here in Canada for growing pot, something a majority of Canadians have admitted to smoking. That might not be as sexy as Afghanistan but why are military style operations being conducted on gardeners in British Columbia?

Canada has nothing to teach Afghanistan on how to have a responsible drug policy, it really isn't surprising that we are using the stormtroopers to burn down farms over there, thats just the way we do things when people grow things that might make our corporate overlords lose potential profits.


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 05 September 2007 07:43 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Right now there is a civil war being fought between Taliban and the Karzai government. There is no third force and I don't recall Taliban saying "all we want is to have a free election".

Oh come on, a former Unocal advisor in Afghanistan is now the mayor of Kabul. That he was even allowed to run in an election campaign funded by western business interests stinks to high heaven. Afghanis complained of mujahideen leaders and feudal drug barons stuffing ballot boxes and even confiscating ballot boxes in their homes overnight spells tainted democracy.

Karzai's a U.S. stooge. His phony government wouldn't last as long as Najibullah's PDPA did if NATO was to cut and run tomorrow.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 05 September 2007 07:45 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
so does that mean you prefer Taliban?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 07:49 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
so does that mean you prefer Taliban?

You're the one who thinks he has a right to choose the Afghan government - not Fidel. Try to get that identity issue straight.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 05 September 2007 07:51 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Who else is there??? There seem to be two sides in Afghanistan, NATO and its puppets and Taliban. There is no middle ground.

There are no sides in Afghanistan and its all middle ground. Corrupt officials,especially in the ANPolice are in league with the drug criminals as much as the Taliban are.

The Senlis Council's legal drug strategy is discounted because in order to have a legal industry,you first have to have a country with a legal system.

The Afghans who are most in favour of a continued NATO presence are the ones who profit from milking them dry and they do not want the gravytrain to end.

Canada is wasting its time there. We have done more than our share and its time to wind down the mission. Mentor the ANA and ANP and keep our troops in garrison until the mission is over. It works for the Euros.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 05 September 2007 07:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
so does that mean you prefer Taliban?

I think Afghanistan is one country in Central Asia surrounded by Stani nations, Russia, China, India, Iran and Pakistan. They're forming their own NATO, and it's called Shanghai Cooperation, and this alliance of nations won support of former Taliban slayer and mujahideen leader Ahmed Shah Massood,who was probably the most legit leader in the country until al Qaeda did him in.

Afghanistan is their backyard, and those countries are capable of handling security in their own part of the world. Let them deal with it. Because what would Uncle Sam say if China, India, Russia , North Korea, Iran, or evel all of them were to put troops and base stations in Latin America and installing ABM's and generally mowing the Yank's lawn for them ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11260

posted 05 September 2007 08:02 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What I mean to say is that I heard on CBC radio from a guy with the British National Health Service that they don't want to use Afghan opium to make drugs because the tar substance which comes out of the Afghan plants is not as pure as the stuff which they grow elsewhere and use to make drugs.
I heard that interview, too, and it's nonsense. Heroin is made from morphine. He was spouting the propaganda that's being used to keep most of the world's opium out of the commercial trade, keeping prices high.

From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
salubrious
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14448

posted 05 September 2007 08:05 PM      Profile for salubrious        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by melovesproles:
I don't see anything wrong with May's call for a smarter approach to opium in Afghanistan, but the fact is we as a country are spending a ton of cash on fighting farmers here in Canada for growing pot, something a majority of Canadians have admitted to smoking. That might not be as sexy as Afghanistan but why are military style operations being conducted on gardeners in British Columbia?

Canada has nothing to teach Afghanistan on how to have a responsible drug policy, it really isn't surprising that we are using the stormtroopers to burn down farms over there, thats just the way we do things when people grow things that might make our corporate overlords lose potential profits.


Aah, Yes kind sir. Glad you mentioned this.

Policy #106 in the Federal GREEN BOOK

(the NDP don't have a book or anything else similar and actually teach in their candidate schools to not even give out any written policy these days)


Sorry, only the Bloc of Quebec and the National GREEN Party has a policy to deal with even this ridiculous issue as well.
I cant vote Bloc here in Vancouver.


The GREENS POLICY # 106

""regulate marijuana under federal legislation as a product similar to alcohol and tobacco""

http://web.greenparty.ca/download/GPC_Platform_2006.pdf


Again Jack told all of Canada in 2003 he thought cannabis should be dealt with but then he was muzzled instantly and has run from this issue ever since.

Courage it takes! Jack.

Green? YES !

Seems even the conservatives have been reading the Green book and I love Harper in all his green ties.
Layton and Dion as well.

I look forward to this next Federal election and I am excited politically for the first time in a very long time.

Thanks for bringing up that point.


From: Vancouver ,BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 05 September 2007 08:07 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

There are no sides in Afghanistan and its all middle ground. Corrupt officials,especially in the ANPolice are in league with the drug criminals as much as the Taliban are.

The Senlis Council's legal drug strategy is discounted because in order to have a legal industry,you first have to have a country with a legal system.

The Afghans who are most in favour of a continued NATO presence are the ones who profit from milking them dry and they do not want the gravytrain to end.

Canada is wasting its time there. We have done more than our share and its time to wind down the mission. Mentor the ANA and ANP and keep our troops in garrison until the mission is over. It works for the Euros.


Other than a detail here or there, I have little to disagree with here. Well summarized, jester.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
redflag
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12372

posted 05 September 2007 08:12 PM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by salubrious:
Afghan opium isn't as pure,,ha-ha , ha-ha

Take a look at the study which the Greens are basing their ideas off of for yourself. You'll see what I'm talking about.

You'll see.

The Senlis Council, Feasibility Study on Opium Licensing in Afghanistan for the Production of Morphine and Other Essential Medicines, September 2005


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 05 September 2007 08:13 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You're the one who thinks he has a right to choose the Afghan government - not Fidel. Try to get that identity issue straight.

As if you have never expressed an opinion about who you would rather see in power in any country other than Canada????

There is nothing wrong with saying who we sympathize with in other countries. I'm not saying that I as an individual have a right to choose who should govern Afghanistan, but I can say who i would support if I were Afghan. The only way to know who the Afghans want to govern them is who they elect in a free, fair multi-party election. If there were such an election and a majority voted to be under Taliban rule, then that's the end of the story - as long as the rest of the world is willing to accept any refugees who don't want to face certain execution as punishment for listening to music etc...


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9443

posted 05 September 2007 08:14 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Converting Opium to Heroin

"Refining raw opium poppy into heroin is a tedious, multistep process. Once the opium gum is transported to a refinery, it is converted into morphine, an intermediate product. This conversion is achieved primarily by chemical processes and requires several basic elements and implements. Boiling water is used to dissolve opium gum; 55-gallon drums are used for boiling vessels; and burlap sacks are used to filter and strain liquids. When dried, the morphine resulting from this initial process is pressed into bricks. The conversion of morphine bricks into heroin is also primarily a chemical process. The main chemical used is acetic anhydride, along with sodium carbonate, activated charcoal, chloroform, ethyl alcohol, ether, and acetone. The two most commonly produced heroin varieties are No. 3 heroin, or smoking heroin, and No. 4 heroin, or injectable heroin."

This does not seem like a difficult product to create.

One day I hope to have my own Copperhead Road.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9443

posted 05 September 2007 08:24 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Poppy Cultivation, Morphine and Heroin Manufacture

"The following is a step-by-step description of morphine extraction in a typical Southeast Asian laboratory."


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 05 September 2007 08:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
jester said, The Senlis Council's legal drug strategy is discounted because in order to have a legal industry,you first have to have a country with a legal system.

Yes, I believe the Soviets tried something along the same lines, but it was an actual ban on opium production. If they weren't able to enforce that law, and it was mainly because the CIA was exploiting broken relations between the Soviet-backed PDPA and feudal land/drug lords, then how can Karzai's government compete with cash crop drug lords and without driving up opium demand and prices further ?.

I think they could gain effective control of the country, instead of losing ground as they have been, if NATO was to invite SCO alliance of nations into Afghanistan in order to affect the kind of crackdown and policing of opium they're talking about.

I don't think they'll do it without involving regional cooperation. Because as it is now, Taliban are said to be supplying dope money to arm Chechen rebels, and some of them are mercenaries for hire by western energy companies, as well as supplying dope to Albanian drug mafia and Kosovar militants. Are western governments even interested in helping Asian countries deal with a problem that began during the west's proxy war with the former Soviet-backed secular socialist government in Afghanistan?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
redflag
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12372

posted 06 September 2007 09:43 AM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
I heard that interview, too, and it's nonsense. Heroin is made from morphine. He was spouting the propaganda that's being used to keep most of the world's opium out of the commercial trade, keeping prices high.

I agree. It's not like I really prefer the current system as is, but to be honest with you, I don't believe there is a whole lot which can be done which is within the realm of ethically responsible possibilities. To make matters worse, I remain far from convinced that the will at the highest echelons of power to change course is lacking. I think there is too much money to be lost, and I'm not sure that the Afghan people want to stop producing the way that they're doing it now. Granted, I don't know that they really have a choice in the matter, but that's not something that can be fixed without doing a lot of very unpleasant things which I'm not sure there is currently a consensus on. We have no way of knowing what the Afghan people want these days because of the extremely distorted power arrangements within the country that have been made even more complicated by our occupation of the place.

But I am interested in humouring the logical extension of the argument which is put forth by the Senlis Council and their ever growing support. So allow me to think outloud and please provide critique.

As I understand it, the Senlis Council is trying to push for Afghan opium to move into the market economy. If you want the opium to move into the market economy it has to be competitive with the other strains of opium which are far easier to use for making medicines. I do not know that the people in Afghanistan are going to sell their opium to the "free market" when they won't get as much for it because their opium has to compete with ultra refined and engineered opium from major pharmaceutical outlets.

I know that if I was an Afghan opium producer, I would continue to sell my crops to wherever I got the most money from and I wouldn't want to waste my time selling to people who wouldn't give me full price for my crops. Even if I had the option to switch to another crop, who is to say that I would be allowed by the local tribal elites? I'll take that concern up in a bit.

As far as the type of opium readily availible to Afghans and it's "marketability" goes, the Senlis Council actually acknowledges the problem which I'm addressing right now and claims that the remedy for this would be to licence the Afghan people to grow the strains of opium which are currently used by the pharmaceutical producers.

This problem was addressed in the interview when the guy from the National Health Service said that the climates in Afghanistan were not suitable for growing the opium plants which the UK National Health Service is currently using.

I have no way of knowing whether or not this fellow is full of shit or not, but his argument makes sense to me, and I would suggest that before we get our hopes up about Afghans growing pharmaceutical grade opium that we ought to at least try out some average size fields (relative to Afghan standards) of the pharmaceutical grade opium in Afghanistan to see how it fares.

If -- and I think this is probably a big if -- we can get the pharmaceutical grade opium plants to properly grow in Afghanistan, we also have to address the fact that there are a lot of opium peddlers in Afghanistan who will not take very kindly to their peasants switching to growing for another market aside from the one they hold a monopoly on. As I understand it, "organized crime" is currently the major purchaser of Afghan opium products, and I'm left with the impression that this group of people is in very good control of their affairs at present. From what I've seen, most people who follow Afghanistan at present believe that these drug lords or "narco-traffickers" (seems to be the new fashionable term) are built in to the Karzai government as well as the national Afghan military and para-military organizations at present.

I believe that this will mean that we're going to have to go to war with the current Afghan elite to break the power of the drug lords in order to allow people in Afghanistan to produce opium for our organized crime rackets, as opposed to allowing them to produce for their own organized crime rackets.

So, insofar as I can surmise, it seems like the conditions in Afghanistan are far from desirable to use the Afghan peasantry as a source of pharmaceutical grade opium production.

I realize that subsidizing the Afghan opium production industry is one way of solving some of the problems which face the people of Afghanistan, but you have to understand that in the west, the subsidies will be removed sooner or later by the elites who would rather re-arrange the power structures to their own benefits, as opposed to the benefits of the people who are most affected by such arrangements. The idea is that the whole system is currently skewed to heavily favour the people with lots of money, and sooner or later the subsidies which favour the Afghans will be removed when it no longer suits the purposes of the invaders.

I will finish by saying that people are always at war with the controlling elites over the issue of who has control of the commanding heights of the economies of the world. At present, the people do not have control of the commanding heights of the economies of the world. The elites have that coveted position and Canada is not an exception to this. As such, every time the military of our country goes to war, they are not going to war in the interest of restoring power to the people. Nay, when Canadians go to war at the whims of the government, they do so to protect the elites of the society we're invading, and if necessary, to replace the undesirable elites of another society with an elite class who is more desirable to the purposes of the elites in Canada. This means that anything we do in Afghanistan is done so for a tainted purpose which does nothing to help Afghans and everything to help Afghan elites and their puppet masters in Canada, the US, the UK, and elsewhere.


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
salubrious
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14448

posted 06 September 2007 10:21 AM      Profile for salubrious        Edit/Delete Post
How many children can you spare to go over there and die needlessly?


Nothing is impossible , even pipe lines.

All it takes is a sane approach.

We have villages using opium as currency to buy a coca cola and every thing else.

We have farmers being paid $40 a pound for something then resold for 100 times that amount , even to legit pharmaceutical companies.

No , this will happen , just watch.

Unless of course other cowardly politicians continue to waste a few more of our childrens lives to try to stop something unstoppable.

$6 billion so far on this war and only $600 million rebuilding the country, you figure it out.

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: salubrious ]


From: Vancouver ,BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
redflag
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12372

posted 06 September 2007 10:36 AM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by salubrious:
How many children can you spare to go over there and die needlessly?


Nothing is impossible , even pipe lines.

All it takes is a sane approach.

We have villages using opium as currency to buy a coca cola and every thing else.

We have farmers being paid $40 a pound for something then resold for 100 times that amount , even to legit pharmaceutical companies.

No , this will happen , just watch.

Unless of course other cowardly politicians continue to waste a few more of our childrens lives to try to stop something unstoppable.

$6 billion so far on this war and only $600 million rebuilding the country, you figure it out.

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: salubrious ]


Given the way your explaining this, would it be correct for me to assume then that the Green party is in favour of keeping the military in Afghanistan?


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
salubrious
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14448

posted 06 September 2007 11:05 AM      Profile for salubrious        Edit/Delete Post
I don't speak for the Green Party.

Myself I would have years ago created a real UN Multi National Force to stabilize regions of the world ,instead of allowing the corruption filled dog eat dog mentality to continue unchecked for a few pieces of silver.

We can go to the moon but we wont stop starvation because it doesn't effect the bottom line.

In fact the world has created enough food yearly since the 50's to feed every one unfortunately we value T-bones greater than humanity.
And now what with Bio fuel reaping profits for corn instead of providing food it will get worse.

Quick profit , dam the consequences.

You can use better plants (in fact any plants , weeds for example )than corn. They are just making the shoe fit for corporate greed as usual.
Again we need a human rights based sane policy and we all know none of our current leaders are brave enough to do the right things.
Name one with a ground breaking policy.
Vote Green and help yourselves and your political system.


From: Vancouver ,BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 06 September 2007 11:23 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, the green party, saviours of the world. Oh...and of making sure no one puts a wind turbine in the way of Anne Murrays golf course.

It's all here.

Yeah, help myself out indeed.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 06 September 2007 12:05 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by salubrious:
Myself I would have years ago created a real UN Multi National Force to stabilize regions of the world ,instead of allowing the corruption filled dog eat dog mentality to continue unchecked for a few pieces of silver.

So should this UN force occupy the USA first?

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 06 September 2007 12:24 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
Yes, the green party, saviours of the world. Oh...and of making sure no one puts a wind turbine in the way of Anne Murrays golf course.

It's all here.

Yeah, help myself out indeed.


Nice to know that the Green Party supports golf courses over wind turbines boy is that ever forward thinking. I suspect that Anne might complain about putting it on hills in Springfield as well. I hope in the future the Greens asks all celebraties where wind turbines should be placed because really they are the people that count the most.

quote:
Clair Peers, one of the wind farm’s developers and who grew up in the area, said the Gulf Shore Association knew Murray had a cottage nearby and likely recruited her in their battle against the project. “It’s probably a clever tactic to get someone famous involved. It’s been an ongoing thing.”

Murray could not be reached for comment.

Peers said he and company partner Atlantic Wind Power chose the site because it is close to the power grid, would benefit from the winds off the strait and is environmentally friendly. “I thought what a wonderful thing to bring back to the community I grew up in.”

However, Elizabeth May, the Green Party leader whose riding is in Nova Scotia, said she sides with Murray in the debate. “She’s clear she supports wind power and is talking about siting. Perhaps we can agree cottage country is not the best site for wind farms.”

Instead, May expressed surprise that Atlantic Wind Power - previously involved in a siting controversy in Nova Scotia in 2005 - hadn’t learned its lesson and was fighting uphill against public opinion

again. In 2005, the company developed its Pubnico Point Wind Farm in southwest Nova Scotia. At least one family moved, complaining of noise from that development.

May suggested hilltops in the province might be more appropriate for wind developments rather than the coastline.

“I think Anne Murray was right to say she supports wind power, but this isn’t the right place for it.”


In the great debate about sustainable energy the cottage must be of primary importance. So maybe one of the Green's on this board could explain the places that are allopwed and not allowed. Hills maybe but what if you can see the hill from a golf course or cottage. (in Nova Scotia remember cottages and golf course are very prevelant throughout the province)

I love it May supports NIMBYism. Heaven forbid not in the backyard of a golf course.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 06 September 2007 01:16 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
So should this UN force occupy the USA first?

Not necessary. Gold climbed to $US697 today and December futures broke 700 to $US704. Next week, $US113 billion dollars worth of derivatives junk paper comes up for renewal, none of the hedgehogs have the liquidity to cover and no-one on this planet will touch the stuff.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8013

posted 06 September 2007 05:05 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought most of the poppies were grown in the areas controlled by the west.
Thats basically what they are saying in the vic times colonist. Definitely they are saying that poppys are increasing in those areas.
I wondor how much propaganda we are being exposed to? A couple of months ago I saw pics of the soldiers building a road through wasteland or brush but to me having worked in a vineyard, it was very clearly a working vineyard they were going through. If the top brass didnt compensate the farmer before destroying his work, he would be hopping mad, now wouldn't he?
I think putting it as a taliban or harper story is supremely simplistic. There are lots of factions. You barge in, someone hugs you, sucks up to you just so he can get a better knife for his neighbours back. How are you making things better? Discribing them all as tribal is a bit rich too. They have probably had roads (and ownership of land for new roads) for the last 4000 years. does anyone really think an occupying force can just build willy nilly without resistance?
Being revolted by opium is a little strange in our culture. You got icons like clapton singing about drugs and it goes back at least as far as byron. Westerners are facinated by drugs.
You do not want drugs grown? Then stop buying them.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
melovesproles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8868

posted 06 September 2007 09:19 PM      Profile for melovesproles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Again Jack told all of Canada in 2003 he thought cannabis should be dealt with but then he was muzzled instantly and has run from this issue ever since.

Courage it takes! Jack.

Green? YES !


At least he went on camera and said he thought marijuana should be legalized even going so far as to call it a "wonderful substance." What has May said that shows that kind of courage? This policy on Afghanistan opium isn't that radical, Gerard Kennedy was calling for the same thing. I'd say getting us out of our aggressive role there is the most important priority, something the NDP has recognized and acted on.

Having your policy in a book is a good idea but it only means so much, look at how much of the Liberal red book was not ignored once they got majority governments.

On both Afghanistan and marijuana legalization, the federally NDP has been noticeably more courageous than the Green party. In BC, I've been pretty unimpressed with the courage of the provincial NDP however, I'm considering voting Green for the first time.


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
salubrious
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14448

posted 06 September 2007 10:11 PM      Profile for salubrious        Edit/Delete Post
I was ndp for over 30 years.
Everyone I have met in the Greens is from the ndp except Ms May.

I don't like the ndp with layton as leader because I don't trust him.
Having met him numerous times and being lied to by him personally and other childish moves I have now given the Greens a chance and hope to see more of their influence in all the other parties as we are seeing.

The BC ndp are a joke now and carol james is also over. At least she may get a pension out of it.

watch.


From: Vancouver ,BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 07 September 2007 06:53 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by salubrious:

Having met him numerous times and being lied to by him personally and other childish moves I have now given the Greens a chance and hope to see more of their influence in all the other parties as we are seeing.

Any specifics on what he's 'lied' about to you?

I've spoken with him personally a number of times and still have yet to discover him to be falacious.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10004

posted 07 September 2007 07:00 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joshua Kubinec --
quote:
Given the way your explaining this, would it be correct for me to assume then that the Green party is in favour of keeping the military in Afghanistan?

Joshua the Green Party believes that the aggression in Southern Afghanistan should never have taken place and that it should stop. In the recent resolution debates in parliament over withdrawal from Southern Afghanistan by 2009 or immediate withdrawal as proposed by the NDP I consulted with the shadow cabinet as to which position we would take. I defended the NDP position of not supporting the Bloq/Liberal withdrawal resolution in blogs. My personal belief is that we should never have been in Afghanistan in the first place and that we should withdraw and completely reshape Canada's foreign policy on violent conflict. However the party feels that we have to deal with the situation responsibly as it is and that a withdrawal has to be negotiated and that caution should be taken as to not leave a complete power vacuum. The Green Party believes (from my interpretation) in a responsible, negotiated withdrawal of Canadian troops from Southern Afghanistan but that we maintain reconstruction efforts elsewhere. I personally believe that the NDP would do the same if in government. I don't believe for a minute that Jack really means complete arbitrary withdrawal of all troops within months. He appeared to be more than ready to simply send them elsewhere such as Lebanon without, again, thinking through the ramifications of involvement in that conflict.

Passed resolution from 2006 Green Party convention. G06-p03: Canada’s Military Involvement in Afghanistan
BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Green Party of Canada call for an end to Canada’s current involvement in the NATO-led military campaign in southern Afghanistan, and advocate that Canada instead strictly confine its efforts to peacekeeping, rebuilding infrastructure, and humanitarian work to improve the lives of the people of Afghanistan. The military security aspect would strategically best be undertaken by the United Nations or other appropriate nations and Canadian troops would cease undertaking offensive military operations.

Web Gear -

quote:
Does Elizabeth May believe that marginalizing the drug lords and warlords will be easily done?

No she doesn't think that at all. The Greens believe that there should be a proper search for an alternative way of dealing with the reality of the poppy crop in Afghanistan. Military action has worsened the situation with the destructive policies of the U.S. and Britain which directly conflicted with efforts by Canadian troops to deal sensibly with Afghan farmers. The NATO force itself is divided on how to deal with the situation which makes for disaster. Many warlords and drug traffickers in Karzai's government further create conflicts and undermine efforts to find an alternative. So long as we keep giving the Karzai government unconditional support and allowing corruption to spread and profit the situation will continue to be hopeless.
Green Party statement from December 2006 - http://tinyurl.com/3eyldq

quote:
...that Canada take the lead on implementing a comprehensive strategy to break the cycle of illicit poppy growing and violence that has kept Afghanistan in turmoil for decades. The Senlis Council recommends Canada help Afghanistan develop sustainable alternatives to poppy cultivation and investigate the feasibility of a controlled opium market to drive a wedge between farming communities and illegal heroin traffickers. The NGO recommends Canada avoid the increasing militarization of drug policy in Afghanistan.


These are a couple of good articles on the subject which shows things just aren't changing.

http://tinyurl.com/39ny82 Paul Salopek, Chicago Tribune, 26 December 2001

quote:
The UN's own research shows that many of the Northern Alliance commanders who dominate the interim government have long histories of growing poppies. And the deeply entrenched roots of the trade, whose immense profits in a poor land even corrupted the ultra-pious Taliban, are nowhere more evident than in hard-bitten villages such as Sorukh Road, which means red river.

Simon Jenkins - Kuwaiti Times September 2007 - http://tinyurl.com/2m7fck

quote:
The only way, repeat the only way, of curbing the heroin trade is by curbing demand. London's policy, shared with Washington, of trying to stop its people from consuming heroin and cocaine by disrupting the supply chain, was never going to work. It has merely made supply more profitable. It has been pursued for the cynical reason that politicians find it easier to blame some poor foreign country for a British social problem than to tackle that problem domestically. While Britons and Afghans are dying in Helmand, the budget for drug rehabilitation at home is pitiful even by European standards.
The visionary proposal of the Senlis Council think-tank, to buy the entire Afghan poppy crop, which some have been pushing for five years, must now be rated close to hopeless. The hope is that the UN could use the opium to meet a world shortage of morphine, in the same way as the Turkish and Indian crops are bought at present. The Afghans would thus get a fair and legal return for what they produce so successfully. After the invasion in 2001, poppy production was minimal and bulk purchase might have been worth a try. But the US privately allowed anti-Taleban warlords to start replanting and the proposal is now pie in the sky.

To buy the whole crop would be wildly expensive and logistically close to impossible. Without curbing demand, stemming one supply route would merely increase price and stimulate substitute supply from elsewhere.


Finally I would like to say that as to the Green policy on legalizing marijuana could we please stop referring to it as courageous and visionary. There is absolutely nothing courageous or visionary about the stance at all. In point of fact it is not even prominent in Green Party platforms which should give a clear indication on its priority status within the leadership. Decrimminalization and eventual legalization simply makes sense but that is it. Its connection with the overwhelming situation in Afghanistan is tenuous and an insult to the level of destruction being brought down on Afghans from all sides. An entire way of life is being destroyed over there, not the lifestyle choices of either brain dead stoners sitting on a couch watching Monty Python reruns, or executives looking to relax with an alternative to the 6:00 pm. martini. Ending poverty is courageous and visionary. Ending violent conflict and nation building is courageous and visionary. Ending the myth of globalization which feeds violent, oppressive conflict in the developing world is courageous and visionary. These are things the Greens and NDP share and liberals and conservatives do not, so lets keep perspective.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10004

posted 07 September 2007 07:05 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
salubrious - You really have to expand the number of people you talk to in the Green Party. I don't know who you've talked to but read through the blogs on the Green site and take note. Everyone except Ms. May? Really, think about what you're saying.
From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10004

posted 07 September 2007 08:36 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the article quoted above. "To buy the whole crop would be wildly expensive and logistically close to impossible. Without curbing demand, stemming one supply route would merely increase price and stimulate substitute supply from elsewhere."
and yet, an unscientific look around in the past little while reveals...

Afghanistan poppy harvest jumps 18 per cent By Tom Coghlan in Kabul http://tinyurl.com/34b9g3
"Western officials in Kabul say drug farmers and smugglers work with corrupt government officials and the Taliban in a trade worth more than £1.5 billion - about 40 per cent of the whole Afghan economy."

http://tinyurl.com/yr9yjl
U.S. - "The transfer of power in southern Afghanistan will provide the first critical test of the new U.S. strategy. The shift will allow the Bush administration, which has spent more than $47 billion on military efforts in Afghanistan since 2001, ...."

Canada - "Ottawa’s response has been to increase military spending by $6 billion over the next four years." - http://tinyurl.com/3eyldq

Britain - "The Government insisted that the defence budget had increased in real terms since 2000, while £1.4 billion has been set aside to cover the costs of deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan" - http://tinyurl.com/29rsa2

Health Canada granted VCH a three-year operating exemption under Section 56 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, and has provided $500,000 per year to support the scientific research pilot project. The BC Ministry of Health provided $1.2 million to renovate the former retail space, and provides operating funding through Vancouver Coastal Health. -- http://www.vch.ca/sis/faq.htm#qa7

So we can as western nations readily engage almost $60 billion dollars to arbitrarily kill tens of thousands of people, destroy infrastructure and a way of life plus ratinalize the logistics of maintaining that spending and fullfilling the mission but it is impractical to deal with a poppy trade estimated at roughly 3 or 4 billion dollars and supervised injection sites and other prevention/elimination programs that would cost less than a million dollars each if properly administered. Afghanistan represents 90% of the world's heroin trade? If that is all true would logic not say that we could buy out Afghan farmer's poppy crops and do whatever with it, destroy it after harvesting it, convert it to morphine or regulated drugs, thus choking off 90% of the supply plus increase investment in prevention/treatment plans at home in our respective countries and still not reach $10 billion dollars per year? Thus saving lives, both home and in Afghanistan plus $50 billion dollars in war costs, and have time to focus on whatever alternative economic solutions that would appeal to Afghans as an independent, unoccupied country.

I know my math is off but the theory is what I want to get across. Canadian political leaders have to change the way they think and the approach we take as a country.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Remind2
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14491

posted 07 September 2007 08:44 AM      Profile for Remind2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really, the Green Party needs to start buying advertsing space here, instead of flooding the place using scripted infomercials about how great the Green Party is and why people should vote for them.
From: On Holiday | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 10:22 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, if we made that a rule for all parties, we'd never have a discussion about the NDP again.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 10:30 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
My attitude is that both sides are so horrible that maybe the best thing for the world would be for there to never be a winner in the war and let the two equally horrible sides just keep fighting each other forever. As long as Taliban and the warlord-backed Karzai forces keep killing each other - they are not killing people in the rest of the world.

It's kind of like what Kissinger said during the Iran-Iraq War - if only they could both lose.


Funny, I've heard people say exactly the same thing about Israelis and Palestinians. Everyone pull their funding and let them keep killing each other until they both "lose". I'll bet you don't like that idea though, do you, Stockholm?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
salubrious
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14448

posted 07 September 2007 12:15 PM      Profile for salubrious        Edit/Delete Post
*******Finally I would like to say that as to the Green policy on legalizing marijuana could we please stop referring to it as courageous and visionary. There is absolutely nothing courageous or visionary about the stance at all. In point of fact it is not even prominent in Green Party platforms which should give a clear indication on its priority status within the leadership. Decrimminalization and eventual legalization simply makes sense but that is it. Its connection with the overwhelming situation in Afghanistan is tenuous and an insult to the level of destruction being brought down on Afghans from all sides. An entire way of life is being destroyed over there, not the lifestyle choices of either brain dead stoners sitting on a couch watching Monty Python reruns, or executives looking to relax with an alternative to the 6:00 pm. martini. Ending poverty is courageous and visionary. Ending violent conflict and nation building is courageous and visionary. Ending the myth of globalization which feeds violent, oppressive conflict in the developing world is courageous and visionary. These are things the Greens and NDP share and liberals and conservatives do not, so lets keep perspective *****- Quote


Yet you can sit here and tell us what Ms May thinks, eh?
Are you a psychic?


I don't know who you think you are but a 25% increase in membership is pretty significant and like some other Green members dont get , its LEGALIZATION , NEVER DECRIM ,,Please get your head around that official GREEN policy please!No where do we talk about decrim, get it.

Decrim will never work as it doesn't address supply. It changes nothing in the long run.


I am in fact attempting to move all the voters that we had join the ndp ( we are credited with delivering over 150,000 votes to jack)

That's 25% of the last Green vote.

Get over it.
We are here and will not be silenced unless the Greens lose their explicit policy.

Here's something to put it into perspective for you and why I am working so hard to do what myself and my team are in fact doing.

I do not like to be talked to in that tone about why I am even in the Green Party by a so called Green member.

The mess even within our own counties environment is really because of the continued lack of courage by our previous elected officials.

Right down to your so called "brain dead stoners" comment as you put it , having the rights to their own bodies and not be treated like your demeanor suggests.
Wow!
Yes it takes courage as I know!
And jack layton doesn't have it or we would already see it.


****** quote ---- a good explanation**
Viewing this issue as simply about legalizing or decriminalizing marijuana tends to place this issue fairly low (like off the radar) on many people's progressive agenda. Viewing it as putting an end to the war on drugs elevates the issue to a top priority. The war on drugs is the cutting edge of fascism in America. It is absolutely central to the loss of civil liberties, freedom and justice in America, and paved the way for the final removal of civil rights protections under the banner of the war on terror. We in Canada are perpetuating a war on our own citizens under our current marijuana laws. This is unconscionable and obscene and must not be allowed to continue.
We have been lied to with our own tax dollars for decades. When I met with my local Conservative MP about this issue, he was more knowledgeable and sympathetic than I expected. He suggested marijuana advocates take out huge newspaper adds destroying the current myths about marijuana which keep us spinning our wheels. The more I think about it, the more I think he was right.

The struggle to legalize marijuana is a struggle not only for justice, but for an invaluable and abundant medicine. It is a struggle of truth against lies, and individual and collective will against multinational corporations. It is very difficult to exaggerate the harm that has been caused by the war on drugs. When the dots are all connected, it's not at all hard to argue that legalizing marijuana ought to have the highest priority with all progressive people and parties.
***** - end quote


COURAGE YOU BET!!!


Again all of you,,, no disrespect but this issue is bigger than most people realize and ties to so many wrongs in this and other countries.

I am ex Canadian military,,an ex Revenue Canada Legal and Licensing officer , an ex Banker ,and many more things,,, I am also a "brain dead stoner " as my colleague says.

So are millions of canadian voters.

If you don't like "official" Green Party policy don't vote for us.
At least we have a policy not like some others with no plan other than their ego.


I live in BC.
All the Greens I have met came from the ndp.
Don't like that , oh well.

Tell Jack to find some courage and quit lying.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: salubrious ]


From: Vancouver ,BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Remind2
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14491

posted 07 September 2007 12:15 PM      Profile for Remind2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Wow, if we made that a rule for all parties, we'd never have a discussion about the NDP again.

I have noticed NDP ads here though, but nary a Green Party one.

Moreover, the NDP partisians do not work from a script, and really are seldomly supportive of the NDP.


From: On Holiday | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
redflag
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12372

posted 07 September 2007 12:50 PM      Profile for redflag     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mimeguy:
Joshua the Green Party believes that the aggression in Southern Afghanistan should never have taken place and that it should stop. In the recent resolution debates in parliament over withdrawal from Southern Afghanistan by 2009 or immediate withdrawal as proposed by the NDP I consulted with the shadow cabinet as to which position we would take. I defended the NDP position of not supporting the Bloq/Liberal withdrawal resolution in blogs. My personal belief is that we should never have been in Afghanistan in the first place and that we should withdraw and completely reshape Canada's foreign policy on violent conflict. However the party feels that we have to deal with the situation responsibly as it is and that a withdrawal has to be negotiated and that caution should be taken as to not leave a complete power vacuum. The Green Party believes (from my interpretation) in a responsible, negotiated withdrawal of Canadian troops from Southern Afghanistan but that we maintain reconstruction efforts elsewhere. I personally believe that the NDP would do the same if in government. I don't believe for a minute that Jack really means complete arbitrary withdrawal of all troops within months. He appeared to be more than ready to simply send them elsewhere such as Lebanon without, again, thinking through the ramifications of involvement in that conflict.

Passed resolution from 2006 Green Party convention. G06-p03: Canada’s Military Involvement in Afghanistan
BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Green Party of Canada call for an end to Canada’s current involvement in the NATO-led military campaign in southern Afghanistan, and advocate that Canada instead strictly confine its efforts to peacekeeping, rebuilding infrastructure, and humanitarian work to improve the lives of the people of Afghanistan. The military security aspect would strategically best be undertaken by the United Nations or other appropriate nations and Canadian troops would cease undertaking offensive military operations.


I actually agree with you for the most part here. I've long said that the if the NDP is really serious about going through with our cockamamie plan to rid Afghanistan of our presence, then I think we need to present a radically different grand meta strategy for the Canadian military.

I have some ideas about what we could do for a new meta strategy for the Canadian military, but I'm hardly an expert on the matter.


From: here | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10004

posted 07 September 2007 02:03 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
salubrious -
quote:
Yet you can sit here and tell us what Ms May thinks, eh? Are you a psychic?

No I'm not psychic. I read the press release which is why I linked to it.
“Growing poppies means survival for millions of Afghans. Canadian troops promised local farmers their crops would not be destroyed. The U.S. decision to ignore Canadian advice and eliminate poppy crops puts our troops at grave risk,” said Ms. May. “We need to start supporting alternatives that help the people of Afghanistan earn a decent living and achieve financial independence from drug lords and armed groups.”

quote:
I don't know who you think you are but a 25% increase in membership is pretty significant and like some other Green members dont get , its LEGALIZATION , NEVER DECRIM ,,Please get your head around that official GREEN policy please!No where do we talk about decrim, get it.

Don't really know what or where that came from. 25% increase in membership never came up in the previous discussion that I can find. I'm aware that the Party policy is legalization. My personal belief is that a Green government would not bring it in before first going through decrim. due to the nature of Canadian priorities. You believe different, so be it. So I in point of fact do have my head around the policy and we simply disagree with how prominent it will be. A Green opposition will not bring down a sitting government over legalization. That is my opinion. A Green goverment would not have legalization as its first year priorities. That is my opinion.

quote:
I am in fact attempting to move all the voters that we had join the ndp ( we are credited with delivering over 150,000 votes to jack) That's 25% of the last Green vote. Get over it. We are here and will not be silenced unless the Greens lose their explicit policy.


Well this seems to be the 25% you're talking about and I still don't get where it came from other than the fact that you're upset. I think it is great that you are working to bring that many former NDP members over to the party but I never addressed that because how the hell would I know since it was never discussed in the thread. Who is trying to silence you? Who's here? I'll be happy to get over it once I know what the hell I'm getting over. I stand by my opinion. The comparison between Afghanistan and the subject of this thread and the urgency of the legalization debate here in Canada is not as close as you seem to want it to be. I don't want to get into the issue of legalization here because it appears to side track the discussion of the war in Afghanistan and poppy farmers.

From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10004

posted 07 September 2007 02:11 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joshua I'm not an expert either but the main agreement between our two Parties is that Canada has to change how we approach our involvement in violent conflict. We also have to realize that having the courage to withdraw from a conflict is just as vital as the courage to enter one. We owe it to women and men who are willing to sacrifice their lives on orders from Ottawa without question, that we not send them or keep them in a war that is based on lies and deception.
From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9443

posted 07 September 2007 02:34 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Joshua Kubinec:

I have some ideas about what we could do for a new meta strategy for the Canadian military, but I'm hardly an expert on the matter.

I would like to hear your strategy.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 September 2007 06:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh lordy. I see now. The punctuation in this thread, and your shilling for Shavluk in the other thread gave you away, salubrious. Not to mention your insulting tone when someone disagrees with you.

Banned means banned, dude. What is this, the fourth account now? Anyhow, it's been a slice.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scooter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5548

posted 12 September 2007 05:03 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by melovesproles:
...but the fact is we as a country are spending a ton of cash on fighting farmers here in Canada for growing pot...

Now that is hilarious. Hell's Angel members as farmers.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8013

posted 12 September 2007 07:07 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who in their right mind gives a crap about people toking? I never have toked but there are lots of people who are knarly if they do not have a joint.
Like a guy without a girlfriend, mean and nasty.
Well, it is like outlawing girlfriends to outlaw pot for those people.
You will have lots of nasty brutes going round beating up people. Cost that into your figures too.
Pot seems to be like sex, makes guys sleepy.
Half the people in bc (and their dogs) must be angels then. I think people should be realistic.
If you had it legal there would be no angels involved at all.
You seem to prefer to have them controling the marketing and some of the growers too!
Is that so?
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

Now that is hilarious. Hell's Angel members as farmers.



From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 12 September 2007 07:19 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, it is like outlawing girlfriends to outlaw pot for those people.

All women who toke are lesbians?

[ 12 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
melovesproles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8868

posted 12 September 2007 09:45 PM      Profile for melovesproles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Half the people in bc (and their dogs) must be angels then.

Yeah, I can't believe what a harsh year its been in BC, people have been getting arrested for growing a couple of outdoor plants. They must have a massive budget, a little help from our friends down south doesn't hurt. Kinda annoying the US is interfering at all since there are states which have decriminalized, its even possible to get jobs on massive legal marijuana farms in Calfiornia. Its not about stopping marijuana, its about stopping small local Canadian producers, nothing new here.

The small growers in Cali were hit like this in the 1980s, I just finished Thomas Pynchon's 'Vineland' which makes fun of Reagan's war on hippies who grow pot in north California. Kind of sad we're just following the same idiotic policy here twenty years later after its already discredited amongst Americans with brains but that seems to be Canada in a nutshell these days.

And Mimeguy, I do think that the hunting of small farmers in California and now in BC and Afghanistan are parts of the same process and narrative-one that is so obviously idiotic and undefendable, it is only the human aptitude for moral self righteouness and schadenfreuden which have allowed it to go on this long.

I'd love to see the Hells Angels and Afghani walords lose their shares of the drug market, like you pointed out Brian it is not rocket science how that could be brought about. A lot of pro-legalization people didn't love the decrim bill that died last parliament but it would have been a start I think, and would have let people grow a couple of plants for personal use, something states in Australia and the US have been doing for years.


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca