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Author Topic: The CPC and the religious right
Vanessa S
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posted 19 September 2006 11:47 AM      Profile for Vanessa S     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How connected are they? Is the CPC's support for Israel only due to Christian fundamentalists who are actually anti-Semitic? Would they get rid of a woman's right to choose if they had a majority?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Vanessa S
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posted 19 September 2006 11:50 AM      Profile for Vanessa S     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From another thread...

"Its on the right that you get people who pay lip service to being pro-Israel but are privately mortified if Jews join their country club. They tend to want to impose fundamentalist Christianity on the country. They wnat to scrap hate crimes legislation. They oppose anti-racism initiatives. I think that the true face of how rightinwg people views Jews can be typified by the comments of rightwing darling Mel Gibson and by Rev. Billy Graham and his well-documentted anti-semitic outbursts."

I think that's true. Hopefully Jews will remember their long progressive tradition in their religion (i.e. Marx, Freud, Einstein) and not be hoodwinked into supporting the CPC.


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johnpauljones
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posted 19 September 2006 01:22 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see Vanessa's facination with all things Jewish continues.
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Lord Palmerston
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posted 19 September 2006 01:27 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Two points.

One, Marx, Freud, Einstein, etc. weren't at all religious. They were very assimilated and had total contempt for the traditional religion. The Jewish left and Jewish academics, intellectuals, etc. have usually been at odds with the traditionalists. Traditional Judaism itself is reactionary and the vast majority of the world's Jews aren't Orthodox.

Two, I think part of the pro-Israel policy can be explained by the Christian fundamentalists support it for their own reasons, and one can say the same of those "clash of civilizations" types who seem to want Israeli soldiers and not the West to bear the brunt of the fight. They love Israel - constantly at war of course. Other conservatives support Israel because they believe it's the only "civilized" country in the Mideast, the only democracy, etc.

[ 19 September 2006: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]


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aka Mycroft
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posted 19 September 2006 01:48 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vanessa S:
How connected are they? Is the CPC's support for Israel only due to Christian fundamentalists who are actually anti-Semitic? Would they get rid of a woman's right to choose if they had a majority?

It helps that Israel is seen as European in culture and as a "liberal democracy" politically. ie they are like "us" while Arabs are "them".


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siren
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posted 19 September 2006 07:29 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is an article by Marci McDonald in the October 2006 edition of The Walrus. I highly recommend it. Title: Stephen Harper and the Theo-cons: The rising clout of Canada's religious right.

You might think "theo-con" a little heavy handed, I certainly did. Yet it is Steve himself who coined the term:

excerpt:

quote:
For Harper, the courtship of the Christian right is unlikely to prove an electoral one-night stand. Three years ago, in a speech to the annual Conservative think-fest, Civitas, he outlined plans for a broad new party coalition that would ensure a lasting hold on power. The only route, he argued, was to focus not on the tired wish list of economic conservatives or "neo-cons" as they'd become known, but on what he called "theo-cons" -- those social conservatives who care passionately about hot-button issues that turn on family, crime and defence. Even foreign policy had become a theo-con issue, he pointed out, driven by moral and religious convictions. "The truth of the matter is that the real agenda and the defining issues have shifted from economic issues to social values," he said, "so conservatives must do the same."

Arguing that the party had to come up with tough, principled stands on everything from parent's right to spank their children to putting "hard power" behind the country's foreign-policy commitments, he cautioned that is also had to choose its battlefronts with care. "The social-conservative issues we choose should not be denominational," he said, "but should unite social conservatives of different denominations and even different faiths."


quote:
Originally posted by Vanessa S:
How connected are they?

From the article, very. Think tanks linked to US televangelists have sprouted in Ottawa.

quote:
Is the CPC's support for Israel only due to Christian fundamentalists who are actually anti-Semitic?

Seems to have a lot to do with their interpretation, er, I mean reading of an inerrant book, the bible. The Jews must be in Israel for Jeebus to return and initiate the rapture. The article opens with a large evangelical rally, Stand With Israel in Toronto. Anti-semitic? Don't know.


quote:
Would they get rid of a woman's right to choose if they had a majority?

Yes.

Interestingly, Harper calls his father the most important influence on his life. In 1988, Harper's father left the United Church over the issue of ordaining homosexuals (apparently). So his homo hate has been on for some time and is generational.


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Lord Palmerston
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posted 19 September 2006 07:47 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We're beginning to see a trend here that is also the case in the US. I read that two-thirds of Protestants who attend church weekly (probably mostly evangelicals) voted for the Conservatives. And probably for the first time a plurality of Catholics outside Quebec who attend weekly also went Tory.
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Lord Palmerston
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posted 19 September 2006 09:17 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Prof. Ann Porter on Harper's social policies

http://dawn.thot.net/ann-porter.html

Governments over the last 15 to 20 years have already moved well along the path of downloading responsibility for "the social" away from the state and towards markets and families. The qualitatively new dimension that the Harper government brings, however, is a new prominence given to a social conservative ideology. The apparent erasure of "the social" in Conservative party documents is, of course, something of an illusion. It is not simply a vacuum that is being left in terms of the role of the state in encouraging a particular social framework, or in shaping social relations, and the way we interact with each other. Rather, there is a particular type of morality and social order that is being promoted; one that incorporates notions of the "right" type of family, a particular type of religious value, a law and order agenda and the removal of rights with respect to same-sex marriage and reproductive choice.

On abortion rights:

Women's groups are also concerned about the Conservative agenda with respect to abortion. During the election, Harper would only say that his views on the issue are "complex", and that he "was not proceeding with an abortion agenda". It has been estimated, however, that there are at least 90 anti-choice MPs in the new parliament (including 16 Liberals and 74 Conservatives) and a large number whose position is unknown. Women's groups are also concerned that a private member's bill could be introduced on the subject. Conservative Party policy allows for free votes on issues of conscience, so even if Harper has said he won't proceed with an abortion agenda, the issue could nevertheless be introduced, debated and voted on. There are also other ways in which reproductive rights could be affected, including through the appointment of anti choice ministers, possible funding cuts for services and groups that are pro-choice, and through encouraging delisting abortion as a medically necessary procedure.

[ 19 September 2006: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

[ 21 September 2006: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]


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Cameron W
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posted 19 September 2006 10:35 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lord Palmerston glad you've put a link up to that article. A friend emailed it to me. It's a great article.

Vanessa, to answer your questions,
How connected are they?
I don't know but I imagine they're connected to some degree.

Is the CPC's support for Israel only due to Christian fundamentalists who are actually anti-Semitic?
I don't know about that. Probably the support is in keeping with what Harper thinks the US wants, or what the US told him, or something like that (I'm not a US basher but Harper is going to far into bed with the States).

Would they get rid of a woman's right to choose if they had a majority?
Probably. And likely gay marriage too. They'll do their level best to show us what's 'morally correct'. Scary stuff.


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Petsy
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posted 20 September 2006 02:37 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
I read the article on "theo-cons" in the Walrus. The most interesting thing of note for me was that the only Jewish group in Canada that seemed to at any time challenge these Evangelicals was the Canadian Jewish Congress.
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Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 September 2006 02:49 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
I read the article on "theo-cons" in the Walrus. The most interesting thing of note for me was that the only Jewish group in Canada that seemed to at any time challenge these Evangelicals was the Canadian Jewish Congress.

Leftwing Jewish groups also oppose the religious right. I'm not surprised about the CJC, it's generally kind of small-l liberal in its politics. Binai Brith is very much aligned with the Conservatives and probably doesn't care as to WHY the religious right supports Israel - as long as they support Israel, who cares? It also isn't as concerned with the separation of church and state.


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ohara
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posted 20 September 2006 06:37 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Seperation of Church and state? We don,t have seperation of church and state here in Canada.
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Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 September 2006 07:14 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes and that is unfortunate
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Wolf
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posted 21 September 2006 09:21 AM      Profile for Wolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vanessa S:
How connected are they? Is the CPC's support for Israel only due to Christian fundamentalists who are actually anti-Semitic? Would they get rid of a woman's right to choose if they had a majority?

No Vanessa, Conservatives support Israel because it is the only democracy in the region embattled by terrorists. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism, contrary to liberal scare-mongering.

The CPC isn't tied to the religious right. Once SSM fails, Harper will no longer pander to social conservatives. He'll focus on fiscal and foreign policy issues. And he will show he is not at all "scary" to the Canadian Jewish community, who respect his stance on Israel.


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Michelle
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posted 21 September 2006 09:49 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
I read the article on "theo-cons" in the Walrus. The most interesting thing of note for me was that the only Jewish group in Canada that seemed to at any time challenge these Evangelicals was the Canadian Jewish Congress.

Did you read further through the article to see how they seem to have embraced the very theocon they opposed in the past at this point?


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Michelle
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posted 21 September 2006 09:51 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way, Vanessa, I'm getting uncomfortable with the way you're constantly going on and on about the Jewish community (as if they're some big monolith) on this forum. Could you please maybe give it a rest?
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pogge
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posted 21 September 2006 10:05 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf:
Once SSM fails, Harper will no longer pander to social conservatives.

Right. He's going to lose this one vote and magically transform into a social liberal in contradiction to all his public statements and writings of the past decade. He's on record as actively working to unite fiscal and social conservatives. Theo-con is a term he himself has embraced. And as decades of recent history amply demonstrate, the people he's "pandering" to don't give up because they lose one vote. They keep trying in every way they can to arrange the conditions they need to win the next vote.


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Wolf
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posted 21 September 2006 10:05 AM      Profile for Wolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
By the way, Vanessa, I'm getting uncomfortable with the way you're constantly going on and on about the Jewish community (as if they're some big monolith) on this forum. Could you please maybe give it a rest?

Michelle, I think Vanessa's question is totally legitimate. A lot of liberal Jews DO fear that the CPC is a party of the religious right who are anti-Semitic. I just don't think she's right and I think that it was quite clear that once the SSM vote fails the "scary" element of the party will be shut up for good and the CPC will focus on economic and foreign policy issues, not divisive social issues. I think more Jews will vote for the CPC because of its Israel stance - Thornhill can be won and if Peter Kent runs in St. Pauls he could win too.

I don't see why Harper should be mocked just for being an evangelical. I don't recall Diefenbaker's evangelism as an issue, for instance.


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Michelle
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posted 21 September 2006 10:20 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because back in Diefenbaker's time, you could be a narrow-minded, colonialist, white-supremacist, religious bigot and that was okay in polite company. Several decades later, that sort of thing is frowned upon.

Also, he's not being mocked "simply" for being an evangelical. There are some evangelicals who are quite open-minded. I used to be one of them until the gay bashing bigots in my church took over the place, and my denomination decided to take up with the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada.

He's being mocked because he's a gaybashing creep, and panders to religious social conservatives.

[ 21 September 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 21 September 2006 10:32 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No Vanessa, Conservatives support Israel because it is the only democracy in the region embattled by terrorists. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism, contrary to liberal scare-mongering.

This of course is total apologist crap.

Israel is certainly surrounded by dictatorships. But the fact is it is pretty close to a dictatorship, and the terrorist state itself.

This is a government that happily forces about three million people to live in concentration camps and cramped poorly serviced ghetto on huge tracts of land that it illegally invaded and continues to control in violation of international law.

It' a regime that happily forces tens of thousands of people within its borders to wear dog tag identification, kind of like what the Nazis forced Jewish people to do during their reign, and force them to work under horrid conditions.

It's a regime that happily sends its military demolition squad into the occupied zones and those cramped ghettos to bull-doze houses and forcefully re-locate people whenever they need the land for something else.

It's also a regime that happily, much to the Conservatives' content, reacts to labour disputes by beating, killing and jailing Israeli workers.

The list goes on.

Why do Conservative regimes here support Israel? There are three reasons I can see:

1) It acts as a great destabilizer against the oil-rich Arab nations and keeps them off balance, which helps multi-national corporate oil tyrannies get better deals with those regimes.

2) For the above reason, it puts the US government/Corporate America--to which the Conservatives are beholden--in a far better position of influence or control.

3) The Israeli government treats people in the same many Conservatives would like to treat people in Canada--which is how Conservative regimes have treated people in the past.

The concentration/slave labour camps--known as "relief" camps--for the unemployed in the 30's, outlawing various unions and electoral parties, internment of Japanese Canadians, head taxes on Chinese immigrants, support for the murderous residential school system for Aboriginals, corporate pay-offs and trickle-down economic stupidity, etc., etc. were brutal measures either initiated or supported by the Conservatives (initiated by the Liberals).

As for anti-Semitism and the anti-democratic religious right, the Conservatives have traditionally been the party that gains their support and influence. The whole Alliance Party, which got a lot of its money from the religious right and anti-Jewish groups, especially in Alberta, is now the biggest bloc in that party.

Don't listen to the servile white-washing the goes on around here sometimes. The historic fact is the Conservatives, and to a very large degree the Liberals, are the harbingers of anti-democratic thought and action in Canada--and that hasn't changed.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Wolf
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posted 21 September 2006 10:37 AM      Profile for Wolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Israel and the Conservatives and Liberals are "fascist"? What planet do you live on?

The white supremacists in the Reform Party did not go into the Alliance or CPC. The party is not at all anti-Semitic and most anti-Semites in this country won't vote for the party that is most supportive of Israel!


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josh
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posted 21 September 2006 10:41 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some on the right do support Israel for theological reasons. However, I would venture to say that most support it for political reasons. They use it as a wedge issue to try to strip away traditional Jewish support for left-leaning parties. This has been true of the Republicans, and now appears to be true of their Canadian counterpart. Also, since 9/11, they see Israel as a partner in the "war on terror." As witnessed by their fondness for, and support of, such things as "preemptive war" and torture. Their apparent hatred for all things Muslim just feeds into that.
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Michelle
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posted 21 September 2006 10:42 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The word "fascist" didn't appear once in his post.

If you're just here to misrepresent people and snipe at them, find another board. Perhaps a right-wing board where they like neo-con outlooks and nasty snipes at people who are against war and occupation.

This forum was not created for you. It was created for left-wing progressives.


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Wolf
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posted 21 September 2006 10:51 AM      Profile for Wolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was pretty close, in my opinion. How on earth are the Liberals and Conservatives "anti-democratic"?

Steppenwolf and Stockholm have made unfounded allegations about the CPC. Stockholm says most are Christian fundamentalist anti-semites and country club elitists who exclude Jews. Steppenwolf says they're filled with white supremacists and people who are "anti-democratic"?

Why not just critique the CPC for its actual policies if you don't like it?

[ 21 September 2006: Message edited by: Wolf ]


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Wolf
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posted 21 September 2006 10:59 AM      Profile for Wolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
However, I would venture to say that most support it for political reasons. They use it as a wedge issue to try to strip away traditional Jewish support for left-leaning parties. This has been true of the Republicans, and now appears to be true of their Canadian counterpart.

And why not? Why are the Democrats in the US and the Liberals in Canada entitled to the Jewish vote? Why should they all be liberals?

Politics is a competitive sport.


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Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 21 September 2006 11:03 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So Israel and the Conservatives and Liberals are "fascist"? What planet do you live on?

This one--the same one where Conservatives and Liberals across the industrialized world, especially Germany, supported the rise of Hitler and the Nazis and even continued to trade and invest in that regime's war machine, right up until it attacked everyone else.

The same one where Conservatives and Liberals supported and continue to apologize for the destructive era of colonial expansion throughout the world and the enslavement and slaughter of people, as well as the destruction of local environments, everywhere.

The same one where Conservatives and Liberals continuously resist the efforts of labour and social justice movements, and other public interest forces, from expanding democracy and improving the living standards, working conditions and opportunities for people.

The same one where Conservatives and Liberals continue to unquestioningly enforce the brutal destructive and anti-democratic economics and agendas of corporate capitalism and the elite agencies that rule over our businesses, markets and labour and economy as a whole--all while three-quarters of the world's population lives well below the poverty line under totalitarian dictatorships of various types and millions work as slaves or bonded servants in sweatshops and millions more starve to death every year.

The same one where Conservatives and Liberals, via state propaganda and the corporate-controlled media, push the lie that the totalitarian state capitalism of the Stalinist regimes of Russia, China, etc., is socialism or communism to falsely discredit these historic movements and economics to discourage people from seeking greater democracy and sustainability in our economy.

Michelle is right. I never used the term "fascist" in my last post--because that term barely even begins to describe the historic legacy of atrocity, exploitation and repression, and corruption of the Conservatives and Liberals over economies and societies across the globe.


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pogge
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posted 21 September 2006 11:06 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf:
And why not? Why are the Democrats in the US and the Liberals in Canada entitled to the Jewish vote?

Ah. So the decision to support Israel should be made strictly in terms of whether or not it will ensure domestic political victory. Thanks for clearing that up.


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Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 21 September 2006 11:19 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why are the Democrats in the US and the Liberals in Canada entitled to the Jewish vote? Why should they all be liberals?

You tell me.

All I know for sure is that the NDP certainly has earned the "Jewish vote" (if there even is such a thing) and seemingly enjoys the support of several major Jewish organizations.

Why? Because it's the only major political party in this country that supports equal rights and protection from discrimination, and promotes multi-culturalism and mutual respect between all ethnic and religious groups, for everyone.

And let's not forget that the NDP, with its CCF practical socialistic history, shares a lot in common with the democratic business values of the fairly popular Kibbutz movement in the Middle East and among Jewish communities across the globe.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Wolf
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posted 21 September 2006 11:25 AM      Profile for Wolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:

You tell me.

All I know for sure is that the NDP certainly has earned the "Jewish vote" (if there even is such a thing) and seemingly enjoys the support of several major Jewish organizations.

Why? Because it's the only major political party in this country that supports equal rights and protection from discrimination, and promotes multi-culturalism and mutual respect between all ethnic and religious groups, for everyone.


How is your rhetoric any different from say, a Trudeau Liberal?

Actually, the NDP gets a miniscule proportion of the Jewish vote, probably no more than 5%. The Jewish professors of humanities and the silk-stocking socialists in the Annex aren't THAT numerous, you know.


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Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 21 September 2006 11:55 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How is your rhetoric any different from say, a Trudeau Liberal?

Rhetoric ain't what it's about Woflie. I leave the rhetoric to the lying corporate media spin-doctors and their Conservative (and Liberal) political puppets that you are so in love with.

Rather, it's about history and fact. When have the Liberals actually enacted anything progressive or democratic? The answer is only when they have been threatened by the NDP.

In the late 30's and 40's, when the CCF knocked them out of office in Saskatchewan, and reduced them to minority government status federally, and it BC, Ontario and Manitoba, then Mackenzie King and St. Laurent decided to do the half-assed bureaucratized version of social reforms out of fear of a CCF take-over.

It happened again in the late 60s and early 70s, when the Pearson-Trudeau Liberals, stuck with a minority government, enacted a bunch more social reforms in order to keep the NDP, which held the balance of power then, from voting with the Conservatives to bring down the government. It paid off for them, in that these reforms were hugely beneficial and popular, and, as expected, the Liberal-friendly corporate media let them take the credit, not the NDP.

Even the infamous "Red Tory" John Diefenbaker bought his government a second term by copy-catting many public and service reforms enacted by the CCF in Saskatchewan (where he was from as well).

So where's the difference? It's easy to see. The Liberals and Conservatives are about talking a good line. The NDP is about doing the good work. That's a huge difference.

quote:
Actually, the NDP gets a miniscule proportion of the Jewish vote, probably no more than 5%.

I don't know where you come up with these goofy percentage numbers. I can't find anything on them anywhere on the net (that's why your repeated assertions about a "Jewish vote" seem so idiotic. It's obvious that Jews vote in all kinds of varied ways, just like any other religious groups).

The evidence that is out there doesn't support your claims. Here's a partial list of links to various Jewish organizations, obviously made up of large numbers of Jewish people, perhaps even in the tens of thousands, that support the NDP openly or share a great many NDP values:


[URL=http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/]http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/

http://www.umanitoba.ca/cm/cmarchive/vol17no1/canjewishanthology.html

http://www.pjalliance.org/article.aspx?ID=259&CID=20

As you can see, these are mainly working class organizations of union members, co-op movement activists and progressive small business types, as well as professors (who, BTW, actually do work for a living, unlike Corporate Canada), who get off their butts every day and go to work and make our economy happen by doing useful things.

That's right--not a useless blue chip/blue-stocking silver-spoon upper class parasite among them. The latter are Conservative or Liberal supporters.

[ 24 September 2006: Message edited by: Steppenwolf Allende ]


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Gentlebreeze
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posted 21 September 2006 12:01 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf:
[QB]

I think more Jews will vote for the CPC because of its Israel stance - Thornhill can be won
QB]



If this is so, I have reason #763 for moving my family out of Thornhill.

However, I am still not convinced that the Conservatives are going to be getting a major boost in the Jewish vote based on its stance in favour of Israeli policies. While I have had the extreme displeasure of chatting with some of the blinkered apologists in Thornhill, those who will vote on this single issue, they are rare. Most of the jews amognst my family and friends are not willing to ignore the hateful, bigoted scum that make up so much of the CPC. In fact, it would not suprise me at all if the jewish community in Thornhill helped defeat the CPC again. The nasty and very vocal reactions I witnessed a few Orthodox campaigners for the CPC receive last election give me hope.

Besides Thornhill has been Liberal for nearly 20 years, and usually be a large margin (over 10,000 votes in the last 2 elections). MP Susan Kadis is a vocal supporter of all things Israel, and was even the Libs Israeli policy critic at one point.

Not that I voted for her either...


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 21 September 2006 02:05 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lord Palmerston & Steppenwolf Allende. could you please fix your links? They're causing sidescroll.
From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 21 September 2006 04:07 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Done
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 21 September 2006 04:22 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Done

Much appreciated, thank you. I'm looking forward sometime in the future to reading this thread .......

Allende? Hello?


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 21 September 2006 07:17 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the CPC has blown any chance at winning Thornhill

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009167


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 22 September 2006 06:30 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Did you read further through the article to see how they seem to have embraced the very theocon they opposed in the past at this point?


I did indeed. However "embrace" is not a correct word. CJC was one of many sponsors for a Israel rally where the article says this McVety character spoke. I dont think that constitutes "embrace" unless you have more info than was in the article.

From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 24 September 2006 12:52 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Lord Palmerston & Steppenwolf Allende. could you please fix your links? They're causing sidescroll.

quote:
Allende? Hello?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.....hmph..uh..huh!
What!? Oh? Wow!

Sorry. Yep, yyyyyyaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnn....I'll fix it.

Done. (I think)


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 24 September 2006 06:22 AM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm rewatching The Root of All Evil on the Big Picture web site. Richard Dawkins' documentary points out the dangers of religion.

http://www.cbc.ca/bigpicture/index.html

"Every Christians is under the obligation to change laws to reflect Biblical values."

In the last 3 years there have a number of institutions near Parliament Hill that have opened (, National House of Prayer, Joseph's Institute of Christian Values w. Ralph Reed) which spend money to organize candidate selection and legislate Christian fundamentalism.

Dawkins says this horrifies him.


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 September 2006 06:28 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
I did indeed. However "embrace" is not a correct word. CJC was one of many sponsors for a Israel rally where the article says this McVety character spoke. I dont think that constitutes "embrace" unless you have more info than was in the article.

I don't have the article on hand at the moment, so I'm not positive of this, but didn't it say that the CJC organized this rally? I might be wrong on that.

Why, yes, indeed, that's what it says.

quote:
Ironically, one of the major stumbling blocks to [McVety's Canada Christian College's accreditation] was a charge levelled by the Canadian Jewish Congress (CJC) that some of McVety's courses were aimed at converting Jews. McVety calls this a terrible misunderstanding, but it lasted seven years. Only after he agreed to close the college's Jewish studies department and dismiss two faculty members did the CJC drop its objections. Still, it may not be entirely coincidental that in 1991, the year of the CJC's initial complaint, McVety hooked up with John Hagee, whose Texas TV ministry had made a name for itself as a cheerleader for Israel.

Now McVety has emerged as one of Israel's leading champions in this country. He has co-hosted an Israel-bonds dinner at Canada Christian College and this summer, as some liberal evangelicals were taking to the streets to protest Israel's devastation of Lebanon, McVety was the chief speaker from the evangelical right at a massive "Stand with Israel" rally organized by, among others, his old nemesis, the Canadian Jewish Congress.


Want to know what kind of guys these two, McVety and Hagee are? Here's what Hagee had to say about the Lebanon crisis:

quote:
This summer, as Israeli jets pounded Iranian-backed Hezbollah forces in southern Lebanon, killing an estimated 900 civilians, 3,500 of Hagee's evangelical conscripts descended on the US capital to demand that Congress stand in solidarity with Israel. Any calls for a ceasefire ignored "God's foreign policy statement" for the Jewish people. Hagee told the Washington crowd, "Leave Isreal alone. Let them do the job." No matter that such solidarity might fuel new waves of Islamic terrorism or, as Hagee details in Jerusalem Countdown, lead to a pre-emptive Israeli strike against Tehran's nuclear installations, which risks igniting the final-days fuse.

Not only that, but the whole article was about the way religious, right-wing evangelical Christians are supporting Israel because they believe that they're speeding up armageddon by doing so. Nice attempt at spin, though. Unfortunately, other people have read the article and can put that one little factoid in context to what the article was actually saying.

You know what happens to Jews who don't convert when armageddon happens, Petsy? Lake of fire, don't pass go, don't collect $200. That's why they want war in Israel. They don't give a damn about Jews. They want to convert as many Jews as possible, and the rest of them are expendable. Besides, "true believers" like them will be long gone by the rapture before any of this happens anyhow. That's their motive.

Nice people you're teaming up with here. Sounds like a deal with the devil if you ask me.

[ 24 September 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 24 September 2006 06:56 AM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Something else that was mentioned on the God Delusion (Dawkin's was not in favour of the documentary's title, The Root of All Evil) was

"The church's claims... revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City... The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

My concern is that voting will become (or already is) part of a Christian fundamentalist's religious responsibilities. I don't know what the ratio is for voter turn out currently for the religious right. If God gets the vote out then I imagine that democracy will be skewed in their favour.


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 24 September 2006 12:51 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The religious right loves Israel...constantly at war of course.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
St. Paul's Progressive
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posted 25 September 2006 09:31 PM      Profile for St. Paul's Progressive     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone who watched the Avi Lewis program where Charles McVety was the guest now knows that Christian conservatives are quite openly about their agenda and are active in the Conservative Party.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 25 September 2006 10:47 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree and there is an excellent piece about this in the Walrus.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 26 September 2006 02:01 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is certainly surrounded by dictatorships.

Actually, this is no longer the case. Lebanon has an elected parliament, as does Jordan and Egypt.

So Israeli apologists can scrape off their "The Only Democracy in the Middle East" bumperstickers, because they're no longer entitled to be smug about that one.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 28 September 2006 12:21 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Not only that, but the whole article was about the way religious, right-wing evangelical Christians are supporting Israel because they believe that they're speeding up armageddon by doing so.


Yes, it is fact they do think that and are trying to do so. Showing how insane they are, as the Bible, also says that those who do try to bring on Armageddon, will fail and will be punished accordingly!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 September 2006 04:51 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I've been meaning to come back and clarify that! The whole article wasn't about evangelical support for Israel - it was about how they influence the Conservatives. But the evangelical support for Israel issue was woven throughout the article as support for the thesis.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
barb_anello
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posted 28 September 2006 05:52 AM      Profile for barb_anello   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Environment Minister Rona Ambrose has hired a new chief of staff. Darrel Reid is the former president of the Evangelical Christian organization Focus on the Family Canada, where he served until 2004. Reid is also former chief of staff to Reform Party leader Preston Manning. (wish I knew how to insert one of those barfing images here)
From: North Bay | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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Babbler # 6289

posted 28 September 2006 07:32 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by barb_anello:
Environment Minister Rona Ambrose has hired a new chief of staff. Darrel Reid is the former president of the Evangelical Christian organization where he served until 2004. Reid is also former chief of staff to Reform Party leader Preston Manning.

Does anyone remember or have links to the corruption that was found in Focus on Family? And I take it this part of the pay off for their support they gave the CRAPPERS!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 28 September 2006 07:42 AM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
When religious dogma enters the political arena shouldn't its proponents be called the regligous wrong instead?
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 28 September 2006 12:19 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by barb_anello:
Environment Minister Rona Ambrose has hired a new chief of staff. Darrel Reid is the former president of the Evangelical Christian organization Focus on the Family Canada, where he served until 2004. Reid is also former chief of staff to Reform Party leader Preston Manning. (wish I knew how to insert one of those barfing images here)

Bumping this forward as otter trivialized yet another important piece of info.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 28 September 2006 12:28 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow. Ambrose has been a laughing stock since being put up to take the fall for Kyoto, but this could indicate that she actually sanctioned it herself - and may well be amongst the insane freaks pining for the Rapture to carry them away.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
siren
rabble-rouser
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posted 28 September 2006 02:42 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know if Reid believes in the Rapture scenario, a brief scanning of the aforementioned Walrus article reveals no linking.

However, Dobson (the US founder of Focus on the Family) was confronted by another evangelical about the importance of global warming. Dobson apparently dismissed it as poor science and a distraction from spanking your children (er, focusing on family values).

The Galloping Beaver blogspot has clips of Reid under the heading, Know your candidate. Conservatives are running wingnuts from December 05. He's a winger which would certainly hint at him being a Rapturist.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 28 September 2006 04:22 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
Wow. Ambrose has been a laughing stock since being put up to take the fall for Kyoto, but this could indicate that she actually sanctioned it herself - and may well be amongst the insane freaks pining for the Rapture to carry them away.

Not likely - I think she's Catholic and therefore, probably not a believer in the rapture. There are non-religious reasons not to support efforts to stop climate change, after all.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 28 September 2006 05:51 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
Not likely - I think she's Catholic and therefore, probably not a believer in the rapture. There are non-religious reasons not to support efforts to stop climate change, after all.

Oh,another signifier that perhaps it's a pay off for FOF support of the CRAPPERS.

Anybody have the link to Dobson legal problems in the uSA?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged

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