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Author Topic: Hello superjails!
Kinetix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5296

posted 04 April 2006 11:24 AM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
OTTAWA—The Conservative government says it is prepared to build more jails to contain all the offenders caught by Prime Minister Stephen Harper's tougher-on-crime agenda.

The Toronto Tsar


From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2006 11:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has not Harper got the Moustache dead to rights on at least voting for some of this? Isn't the NDP position supportive of a "tough on crime" agenda? Will the Moustache be "getting results for people" again, by supporting the tories on mandatory sentencing, and eliminating the 2/3rds rule? Will there be some give and take, and a little negotiation to take the rough edges of the legislation to make NDP friendly? It makes sense to build more jails as well if the legislation is passed.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 04 April 2006 12:02 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Has not Harper got the Moustache dead to rights on at least voting for some of this? Isn't the NDP position supportive of a "tough on crime" agenda?

The NDP electorate is substantially supportive of a tough on crime agenda. People like Layton know well that most of the Conservative nostrums will have no positive effect, and will cost a lot of money, as well.

So, it will always be a political question, whether to give effect to the views of one's constituents, or risk being defeated by failure to do so.

People who don't give any weight whatsoever to the views of the constituents can always play "gotcha" with elected politicians who do.

Those people never obtain any power, however.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 04 April 2006 01:00 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
The whole 'tough on crime' agenda posesses every political virtue save efficacy.

The province with the 'gentlest' criminal justice culture (Quebec) has the lowest recidivism rates. Provinces which enact get tough policies (Ontario) find their crime rates soaring in the decade following.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12062

posted 04 April 2006 01:35 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
Well ya. Buidling more jails and imprisoning more people is a very U.S. style industry. Surely no one is going to act surprised when a republican style policy surfaces in the Harpies government policies?

Stay tuned for the introduction of privatized jails coming to a neighbourhood near you. You don't have to be guilty to be incarcerated, just unable to get a decent defence.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 04 April 2006 01:52 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by otter:

Stay tuned for the introduction of privatized jails coming to a neighbourhood near you. You don't have to be guilty to be incarcerated, just unable to get a decent defence.

What does one have to do with the other? And isn't your second point systemic to the current legal system and has nothing to do with the current two-month old government?


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 04 April 2006 01:58 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not really heywood, they go hand in hand. Conservatives like and generally favor social programs that do both.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 04 April 2006 02:01 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

What does one have to do with the other? And isn't your second point systemic to the current legal system and has nothing to do with the current two-month old government?

Prisons are expensive. More prisons more so. All that money has to come from somehwere, and it's going to come from the justice department's budgets, leaving less money for ensuring that the courts get the right answer.

~~

And the profit motive corrupts criminal justice. Questions of basic human dignity and freedom become subject to extremely well-funded lobby groups which do not have the any other interest but maximizing the prison population while minimizing standards.

~~

Who cares if they get the right guy? An innocent prisoner is just as profitable as a guilty one!


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 04 April 2006 02:11 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aren't we getting just a bit ahead of ourselves with this whole "Prisons, Inc." business?

Or, can someone point to any reliable source that outlines actual plans to scrap Correctional Service Canada in favour of privately owned and administered prisons?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 04 April 2006 02:16 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 04 April 2006 02:27 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ironically, the man who first said that ended up one plea bargain away from living in a superjail himself.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3076

posted 04 April 2006 02:44 PM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the Moustache

lol

I heard they just found the world's oldest t-shirt at an excavation outside Boston. It reads "Moustache Rides: 1¢


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 04 April 2006 04:35 PM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
this is nothing new from vic "mr.boot camp" toews, who basically said and did just what he is doing now as manitoba justice minister.

one of many descriptions of this idiot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Toews#Approach_to_crime_and_the_judiciary


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 04 April 2006 04:52 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Aren't we getting just a bit ahead of ourselves with this whole "Prisons, Inc." business?

Or, can someone point to any reliable source that outlines actual plans to scrap Correctional Service Canada in favour of privately owned and administered prisons?


No, we're not. This is an entirely reasonable forecast to make, considering the ideology and inclinations of the current administration, as well as the record of the conservative governments in Ontario and Manitoba, both of which have senior members now in cabinet.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 04 April 2006 04:55 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is an entirely reasonable forecast to make

So it's pure speculation? Fair enough.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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Babbler # 9723

posted 04 April 2006 05:11 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Magoo does make a good...well, a VALID...point. We're just assuming, here.

That being said, I'm just as skeptical about Harper's proposals. He's very shadowy these days...very shadowy...


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
homes
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11298

posted 04 April 2006 05:12 PM      Profile for homes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure Harper won't be broadcasting the following information too loudly:

Cost of Incarceration
The average annual cost of incarcerating an inmate in a federal institution:

Men: $79,538
Women: $155,589


From: Three bad reasons for believing anything - tradition, authority & revelation. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
eau
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10058

posted 04 April 2006 05:30 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
Why on earth is it so much more for women to stay, or did Karla Homolka drive up the average,its almost double!

I think Harper has caught onto the fear thing, taking a page out of Bush book. I happen to believe kids should get more than a smack on the wrist for their crimes involving violence, but I never feel as though things are so bad in Canada I am unsafe walking down the streets at normal hours in any of our cities.


From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2006 05:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

People who don't give any weight whatsoever to the views of the constituents can always play "gotcha" with elected politicians who do.

Those people never obtain any power, however.



Uhh, what is the point of harnessing political power if you can not apply your ideas?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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Babbler # 3336

posted 04 April 2006 05:37 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One more example of Canada copying the US after it failed there.
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
guelpher
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Babbler # 9994

posted 04 April 2006 05:39 PM      Profile for guelpher     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is it reasonable to expect the number of jails to stay the same when the population of Canada has steadily grown?
I know that's not how Harper sells this but I don't think the argument that we should never build any jails holds any water. Not every move is a right wing conspiracy.

From: Guelph, ON | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2006 05:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is part of the national giest to never show up our neighbours too much by applying too many succesful policies.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mush
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Babbler # 3934

posted 04 April 2006 08:02 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
It is part of the national giest to never show up our neighbours too much by applying too many succesful policies.


From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
homes
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11298

posted 04 April 2006 08:26 PM      Profile for homes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by guelpher:
Is it reasonable to expect the number of jails to stay the same when the population of Canada has steadily grown?
I know that's not how Harper sells this but I don't think the argument that we should never build any jails holds any water. Not every move is a right wing conspiracy.

The incarceration rate decreased in Canada over the last five years. The federal offender population in custody decreased 10.8% from 1996-97 to 2002-03.
In 2001, the incarceration rate in Canada was 116 per 100,000 population.
Canada's incarceration rate is higher than the rates in most Western European countries but much lower than the United States, which had an incarceration rate of 700 per 100,000 general population in 2001.

In response to Eau's question:
It costs more to incarcerate women largely because their numbers are fewer and because of the legal requirement to provide program and service equity.

It costs substantially less to maintain an offender in the community than in a penitentiary:
$18,678 per year versus an average of $80,780.

I thought the Conservatives were in favour of less government spending?


www.csc-scc.gc.ca


From: Three bad reasons for believing anything - tradition, authority & revelation. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2006 08:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you are saying if we put more people in jail the cost per person incarcerated goes down? So, perhaps we should incarcerate the whole country?

Oh wait, they tried that in the Soviet Union, and that failed.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
guelpher
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9994

posted 05 April 2006 11:08 AM      Profile for guelpher     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So you are saying if we put more people in jail the cost per person incarcerated goes down? So, perhaps we should incarcerate the whole country?
Oh wait, they tried that in the Soviet Union, and that failed.

I'm not sure how you would infere that I would want to jail the whole population from my post above.
Maintaining a offender in the community might be cheaper but maybe community service etc is not really enough of a deterrant for criminals. Having said that I'm not a big fan of minimum sentences. I would rather leave it up to the judges discretion on a case by case basis.


From: Guelph, ON | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 05 April 2006 11:28 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

So it's pure speculation? Fair enough.


Pretty much everything on this board is speculation of one sort or another.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Krago
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3064

posted 05 April 2006 12:45 PM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Ironically, the man who first said that ended up one plea bargain away from living in a superjail himself.

Actually, you're thinking of Jeffrey Jones who played the principal. Years later, he was charged and pleaded no contest to possession of child pornography.

That line was acually spoken by Ben Stein who played the science teacher. Ben's only fear of going to a superjail would be if babblers ruled the world.


From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 05 April 2006 12:48 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I stand corrected!
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
otter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12062

posted 06 April 2006 12:40 AM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
the privatization proposal courtesy john howard
Whose speculating now?

From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 06 April 2006 12:51 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So the John Howard society wrote a research paper.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 06 April 2006 01:04 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Whose speculating now?

Uh, the John Howard Society??


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 06 April 2006 08:04 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is it so hard to fathom, Magoo, that this Conservative government, who apes US style in anything, and has already talked about putting more people in jail, will not create superjails?

Is it such a stretch for you to imagine that this is a part of their ideological agenda? Because if it isn't, I'd kind of like to know how you think the Cons will be handling crime. And perhaps you can tell us why Harper said he was going to get tougher on crime and just what the logical conclusions are to make from that statement?


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dana Larsen
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10033

posted 06 April 2006 11:07 PM      Profile for Dana Larsen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Has not Harper got the Moustache dead to rights on at least voting for some of this? Isn't the NDP position supportive of a "tough on crime" agenda? Will the Moustache be "getting results for people" again, by supporting the tories on mandatory sentencing, and eliminating the 2/3rds rule?

Sadly I agree that Layton dropped the ball on the mandatory minimums issue. The NDP should oppose all mandatory minimums! They don't prevent crime and they fill jails needlessly.

If we want to significantly reduce gun crime in Canada we should end the drug war. Most city gun crime is about control of lucrative drug-selling turf. Prohibition is the root cause of most gun violence, in the same way that alcohol prohibition led to gangsterism and shootings in the early 20th Century.

I know many NDPers who were very disappointed about the leadership trying to compete for the "tough on crime" vote.

I will be promoting a resolution calling for the Canadian NDP to formally oppose all mandatory minimums. The next national convention is coming this September.

Once we accept mandatory minimums for gun crimes, then what about knife crime? What about other violent acts? Pretty soon we've put mandatory minimums in place for almost everything.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged

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