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Author Topic: Ignatieff & Pat Buchanan comparison
Kevin_Laddle
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8163

posted 31 March 2006 11:43 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
My take on Ignatieff is that he is a social democrat on domestic issues, and a interventionist, crusading war monger on foriegn policy.

His odd array of positions reminds me a lot of a mirrored image of Pat Buchanan. I don't think its a good mix for political success; Buchanan scares the shit out of moderates for his facist domestic views, and gets lampooned by the American right for his refusal to endorse Bush's crusades. I suspect, should Ignatieff be selected as leader, he will have similar problems.

Ignatieff's Ken Dryden rhetoric on social programs (which I like), is pretty much useless, as most of the target audience for this is appalled by his positions on war and foriegn policy. Similarily, while the Canadian right is very receptive to hawkish, imperialistic, American crusade rhetoric, they would not for a moment considering voting for Ignatieff due to his social positions.


From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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Babbler # 6943

posted 31 March 2006 12:13 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ignatieff's Ken Dryden rhetoric on social programs (which I like), is pretty much useless, as most of the target audience for this is appalled by his positions on war and foriegn policy.

But there is a certain segment of that target audience who will buy into his "professor of peace" image simply because he markets it in a convincing way. When asked about his support for the Iraq war(which to date he has not retracted), he will likely say something along the lines of "well, that was then, this is now, the Bush administration messed it up from the get-go, so right now I don't think there's any reason for Canada to be involved". This will be interpreted by his followers as a thundering anti-war statement, thus sparing said followers from having to ask some thorny questions about how their hero will respond to the next manufactured crisis.

Anyone who's ever bashed their head against a brick wall trying to tell a Camelot nostalgist about Kennedy's repsonsibility for the Vietnam War will understand the dynamic at play between "idealistic" politicians and their followers.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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Babbler # 11427

posted 31 March 2006 01:13 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
Ignatief's demographic--the people that his mix of positions might appeal to--is tiny. In the US he'd be a standard-issue Massachusetts democrat, but in Canada his slice of opinion is under 15%, probably under 10%.

I can't understand wtf the folks pushing him as the liberal saviour are thinking.

~~~

The most important moral and geo-political decision of our time and he was both loud and wrong. Game over.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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posted 31 March 2006 04:24 PM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:
In the US he'd be a standard-issue Massachusetts democrat, but in Canada his slice of opinion is under 15%, probably under 10%.


I have to disagree. IMO, Ignatieff is well to the right of Ted Kennedy or John Kerry on foriegn policy, but well to the left fiscally. For this reason, I think that Ignatieff will divide both of the camps which could be receptive to one of his messages, and end up alienating more people.


From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
BenM
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12067

posted 01 April 2006 04:03 AM      Profile for BenM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin_Laddle:
My take on Ignatieff is that he is a social democrat on domestic issues, and a interventionist, crusading war monger on foriegn policy.

Other than some loose reference to his support for the iraq war and comparing his vision of social programs to that of Dryden, there really isn't much in your argument to back up these claims. I'm not saying they're wrong... but it would be nice to have some substantive data/analysis to back up these claims.

I personally find it somewhat appealing that he doesn't fit the typical mold of a left wing, or right wing politician. Of course I vehemently disagree with him on Iraq (I don't know enough about his stance on torture) but I at least see potential in him to provide a unifying idea of what this country is about, where it is headed, while bringing back some intelligence to the political discourse. I would love someone to transform the political discourse from petty partisanship, to thoughtful, intelligent discussion... and I'm not sure if he's the one to do it, or if any politician could change it in this day in age, but damn, it'd be nice if someone could do it.


From: Armstrong | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
up
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posted 01 April 2006 04:22 AM      Profile for up     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I haven't seen anything from Ig. to suggest he has any ideas, old, new progressive, or regressive on social policy.

I don't know of any ideas he has other than torture-lite and de-centralizing, de-Trudeauing the Federal government.


From: other | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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Babbler # 6061

posted 01 April 2006 11:08 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Other than some loose reference to his support for the iraq war

Read his book. Have you not done that yet? How about tracking down his speeches and his quotes. Google is your friend.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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Babbler # 8163

posted 01 April 2006 11:19 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BenM:

Other than some loose reference to his support for the iraq war and comparing his vision of social programs to that of Dryden, there really isn't much in your argument to back up these claims. I'm not saying they're wrong... but it would be nice to have some substantive data/analysis to back up these claims.


Check out this link of his recent speech at U of Ottawa: (from Mar. 31)
http://jamesbowie.blogspot.com/


quote:
Originally posted by up:
I haven't seen anything from Ig. to suggest he has any ideas, old, new progressive, or regressive on social policy.

I don't know of any ideas he has other than torture-lite and de-centralizing, de-Trudeauing the Federal government.


Actually, from what I understand (and it is based solely on his recent speeches), MI is in favour of a strong central gov't. He slammed Harper for his acceptance of the "balkanization" of Canada.


From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
BenM
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12067

posted 02 April 2006 04:10 AM      Profile for BenM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the links. I've unfortunately only had the chance to read portions of his book on Isaiah Berlin... hopefully I'll be able to track some down at the library.
From: Armstrong | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged

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