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Author Topic: Paul Hellyer
Alkaline
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posted 26 July 2005 10:32 PM      Profile for Alkaline     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just read his book "Goodbye Canada". The book sounds pretty much like an NDP platform. Why did he have to make a new party? Couldnt he have tried to work from within the NDP to bring the issues important to him front and center? I mean, most NDPers have opposing opinions to that of free trade and globalization right?

[ 26 July 2005: Message edited by: Alkaline ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 26 July 2005 10:34 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think people were suspicious of Hellyer's intent, and viewed him as a political opportunist, a man who traded positions as and when it suited him. Whether that's fair or not, I don't think I know his history well enough to say.
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Northern54
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posted 26 July 2005 10:59 PM      Profile for Northern54     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like what Hellyer wrote. On the other hand, what I "read" between the lines... He wanted to establish a "new", "nationalist" party that would incorporate red "Tories", left-leaning "Liberals", New Democrats, Maude Barlow adherents and all other similar groups into one party that could challenge for power.

He did not see the NDP as the "best" vehicle to accomplish this.

My own view is that there is a large downside risk to starting up a "new" party from the ashes of an old one. We did do that in the early 1960's when the old CCF re-formed itself into the NDP. It was intended to be an alliance between labour and the CCF. It is arguable that, like the modern day amalgamation of the Progressive Conservatives and Reform into the "new" Conservative party, the new party was less than the sum of its parts.

On the other hand, there is a time when a party is so "discredited" that it needs to reincarnate itself into a new entity, more in keeping with present realities. I am thinking of the Saskatchewan Progressive Conservative Party under Devine. It screwed up so badly that there was nothing it could do but dissolve and reform itself into the Saskatchewan Party. While I disagree with the direction the new party took (even more right-wing than the Devine Conservatives), I believe that, for its party activists and true believers, the decision to fold and start again was the best one.

I believe that the NDP as it stands now has as good a chance as any new creation to win power for those who believe in its general principles. This may or may not be the time, nobody can tell because in all likelihood that change in a country's political bent will occur during an election period. Ten to twenty years ago, when Hellyer was trying to create a new political force in the country to stand up to American domination of our economy, there was better argument that a new entity was needed. It is my hope that the "break-through" will take place in the near future. Like many others who have toiled for the NDP for many years, I would feel that would make all the personal sacrifice worthwhile.


From: Yellowknife | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 26 July 2005 11:34 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hellyer used to have some active supporters in our area. They have all now joined the NDP. I don't understand all the twists and turns in his career, but I see no advantage in criticising him this late in his life.
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rikardo
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posted 26 July 2005 11:52 PM      Profile for Rikardo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've read two books by Hellyer and agree with much of what he says. The NDP is too left-wing to capture a mojority. And anti-nationalist. Much of the NDP doesn't like nationalists like Hellyer or David Orchard. "Workers of the world unite" is the old cry of the left. Nationalism causes wars they say. Sovereignity is a bad word to much of the NDP.

Anyone remember Mel Hurtig's National Party ?

Now we have the Progressive Canadian Party (PC Party)

www.pcparty.ca or progressivecanadianparty.ca

From: Levis, Quebec | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
canadianpatriot
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posted 27 July 2005 02:38 AM      Profile for canadianpatriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
pc party.ca leads you to the Con party with Stephen Harper on it.
From: National Capital | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
canadianpatriot
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posted 27 July 2005 02:39 AM      Profile for canadianpatriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Helleyer ran for the leaderships of both of Canada major Political Parties and served as MP's, Political Opportunist? I'll leave that to you to decide
From: National Capital | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 July 2005 11:34 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or trying to start something ...

Guys like Hellyer and the other one, National Party guy (Pay the rent or feed the kids), are Liberal economic nationalists who feel without a home since John Turner took over from Pierre Trudeau.

They don't feel at home in the NDP due to its union connections and they no longer feel welcome in the Liberal Party. Which they are not. So they have been fighting from the margins. Unfortunately.

Their knowledge, exprience and passion for Canada really ought to have been harnessed. They are aging but still sounding the warning bells. I wish them well.

[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 27 July 2005 11:59 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Guys like Hellyer and the other one, National Party guy (Pay the rent or feed the kids), are Liberal economic nationalists who feel without a home since John Turner took over from Pierre Trudeau.
Mel Hurtig.

I actually joined the National Party way back when, and started up a riding association. An absolute disaster. Got an even mix of disgruntled ex-NDPers and ranting racists who had joined the party in the region. Stuck around long enough to make certain an older gentleman (who had put his name up regularly to try to become an NDP candidate, failing always) became our local candidate, rather than the anti-immigrant bigot who wanted to take over. Then I tiptoed away, never to return....


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 July 2005 01:26 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I remember the National Party generated a lot of attention quickly but tied itself to the resource wasting and volunteer exhausting strategy of attempting to run candidates in all ridings. It began disintegrating at both the riding and national levels during the election.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rikardo
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posted 28 July 2005 01:18 PM      Profile for Rikardo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Progressive Canadian Party's website is at http://www.pcparty.org
From: Levis, Quebec | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kinetix
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posted 28 July 2005 01:37 PM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Would it kill them to full justify?

Or hell... even have some more French than just the party name?

They're not even *trying* to be a national alternative.


From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Betray My Secrets
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posted 28 July 2005 02:28 PM      Profile for Betray My Secrets     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm a left-wing Canadian nationalist.

I believe in protecting our economy and resources from Chinese and American control, I support unions that represent the interests of the working and middle-classes (Sorry to piss off those of you who hold Marxist theory on a higher pedal than modern reality, but the NHLPA can fuck off and die. I hope they're not certified anywhere. Charest and Campbell will do it though, because discrediting legitimate organised labour gives the PQ-era PLQ (when left-wing Liberal nationalists from the Lesage-era jumped shipped) and the slash-and-burn Fibocreds a hard-on.), I believe that our civil liberties must not be curtailed to serve the interests of foreigners, I know that a Confederation arrangement more favourable to Quebec would help protect us from the aforementioned threats, and I swear on my life that we would be a 51st state were it not for Tommy Douglas, Agnes MacPhail, Pierre Trudeau (For all that I find wrong with him.), and Jean Lesage.


From: Guyana | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 28 July 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kinetix:
Would it kill them to full justify?

Or hell... even have some more French than just the party name?

They're not even *trying* to be a national alternative.



It's pretty low-budget at this point, and let's face it, the Red Tory tradition is pretty much an old English Loyalist thing, not exactly at home in francophone Quebec. (Though pockets of Westmount might be interested).

If they're smart - which remains to be seen - they'll concentrate their efforts on a few higher-profile candidates in Ontario and the Maritimes.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Schmitt
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posted 03 August 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for Jim Schmitt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rikardo:
I've read two books by Hellyer and agree with much of what he says. The NDP is too left-wing to capture a mojority. And anti-nationalist. Much of the NDP doesn't like nationalists like Hellyer or David Orchard. "Workers of the world unite" is the old cry of the left. Nationalism causes wars they say. Sovereignity is a bad word to much of the NDP.

Anyone remember Mel Hurtig's National Party ?

Now we have the Progressive Canadian Party (PC Party)

www.pcparty.ca or progressivecanadianparty.ca


Yes one of the worst things Layton did was come out against the Clarity Act. Fortunately, sensible moderates made him retract. It's disgusting how these ultra-leftists are willing to "jump into bed with separatists" (as Layton later put it after coming to his senses) and tear this country apart. I don't agree, Rikardo, that the NDP is too left-wing (it may be in Vancouver and Toronto but not in most of the country) to capture a majority - most MPs and rank-and-file members are moderates.

As for Mel Hurtig, I read his memoirs once. While I respect his commitment to Canada, he is too left-wing for my liking. He truly is a LEFT-WING nationalist. His platform in 1993 was to the LEFT of the NDP (who had a disastrous leader at the time, Audrey McLaughlin)


From: Port Moody, BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 August 2005 04:31 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uhm, do you read the newspapers? Do you live in this country?

It was the Conservtives, under Mulroney, that forged an alliance with Quebec separatists to form a government. It was Paul Martin who invited separatists into his party for the last federal election. It was Harper who allied himself with the Bloc to try and kill the budget. The NDP has never formed an alliance with the separatists.

It is the disgusting right that can't be pulled from being in bed with the separatists. Do people attend school in this country? There appears to be no independent learning.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Schmitt
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posted 03 August 2005 04:45 PM      Profile for Jim Schmitt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Uhm, do you read the newspapers? Do you live in this country?

It was the Conservtives, under Mulroney, that forged an alliance with Quebec separatists to form a government. It was Paul Martin who invited separatists into his party for the last federal election. It was Harper who allied himself with the Bloc to try and kill the budget. The NDP has never formed an alliance with the separatists.

It is the disgusting right that can't be pulled from being in bed with the separatists. Do people attend school in this country? There appears to be no independent learning.


Of course Mulroney, Harper and Martin have aligned themselves with separatists. They'll align with anyone if it suits their purposes...I have no respect for these scumbags.

I said that ultra-left wing elements in the NDP are also willing to jump into bed with separatists too. They see Quebec as an oppressed nation. And Layton basically catered to them with his opposition to the Clarity Act, probably the best thing the Liberals have ever done, at least recently. Fortunately, the moderate elements of the party (esp. Bill Blaikie) made him retract.


From: Port Moody, BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jim Schmitt
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posted 03 August 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for Jim Schmitt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And as for my (lack of) educational attainment...why does this elitism exist on the left? I was too poor to attend university. And given that I'm in my 40s why would I be attending school now?

I have a son in university (studying business) now, and he (as well as my wife and I) are working our butts off to pay for it. I hope he'll have opportunities I've never had.


From: Port Moody, BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 03 August 2005 05:06 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And as for my (lack of) educational attainment...why does this elitism exist on the left? I was too poor to attend university.

No one should be criticized for their lack of educational attainment, especially if we are just talking about degrees and other pieces of paper.

Experience is a solid education, too.

But, you did refer in your post to "pseudo-intellectuals". That seemed to refer to people with degrees. They can know something too.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Schmitt
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posted 03 August 2005 05:30 PM      Profile for Jim Schmitt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough Jeff. So what should I call people with fancy degrees...the term "intellectual" implies that whatever they say is important because of some letters after their name. I use "pseudo-intellectual" to say that I - and the vast majority of working people who aren't university graduates - aren't as impressed as others might be. I care more about content, not paper.

As for my son, it's a contradiction many families of working people face. We want our kids to do better at us, to not have to do manual labour or some other awful job (even if it pays pretty good)...so they go to university and often become the elitists we despise. But there are plenty of exceptions (like Ed Broabent and Glen Clark) who never forget where they come from.


From: Port Moody, BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 03 August 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Schmitt:
Fair enough Jeff. So what should I call people with fancy degrees...

You could call them "university professors," or simply "people with degrees?"


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 August 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jim, I honestly think that you will find that Wingy is anything but an elitist in the way that you are thinking.

About Mel Hurtig: It wasn't Turner that caused him to distance himself from the Liberal party -- he'd done that long before, in the early seventies, when he was already finding the Trudeau government disappointing on the national question.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 August 2005 06:14 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am without an university degree myself, Jimmy Boy, so keep your elitism crap to yourself. It doesn't take a PhD to buy a newspaper and pore over it once a day.

Yes, yes, the "ultra-left wing elements in the NDP" -- a capitalist party. And you even acknowledge that the conservatives and liberals have climbed into bed with the separatists while the NDP has not, but it is the so-called "ultra-left wing elements in the NDP" that earn your ire. Quite impressive.

So your son, studying business; I assume you are comfortable with him joining the educated elites who are ruining this country?

Does he read a newspaper?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 03 August 2005 06:41 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a fancy degree. I am a Doctor of Rococo.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jim Schmitt
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posted 03 August 2005 07:45 PM      Profile for Jim Schmitt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Yes, yes, the "ultra-left wing elements in the NDP" -- a capitalist party. And you even acknowledge that the conservatives and liberals have climbed into bed with the separatists while the NDP has not, but it is the so-called "ultra-left wing elements in the NDP" that earn your ire. Quite impressive.

So your son, studying business; I assume you are comfortable with him joining the educated elites who are ruining this country?

Does he read a newspaper?


My son and I read the newspaper - where did I say I didn't? Why does the looney left earn my ire? Because the NDP is my party, and I EXPECT better from them than from the Liberals and the Conservatives.

I already mentioned the contradiction tha many working people face when they want their kids to do better but fear they'll despise where they come from. And of course many people don't turn out like that - but it does happen. I'm not anti-business or anti-capitalist at all. My son hopes to start his own business some day - what's wrong with that?


From: Port Moody, BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 August 2005 09:04 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No offence pal, but when you make refernece to the ultra left in the NDP while attacking them for a crime they never committed, you display your own credentials of membership in the lunatic fringe.

But have a nice day anyway.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 03 August 2005 09:15 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fair enough Jeff. So what should I call people with fancy degrees...

I don't think their degrees are really so fancy!

Sometimes I feel compelled to distinguish between working class and middle class people, but not really that often. I mean, high school teachers have MA's or M.Sc.'s these days, but they live off their labour just like you do.

Most of those I know in the NDP who have advanced degrees recognise that the University of Life gives out the best credentials, and those are not written anywhere.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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