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Author Topic: Is There Such Thing as a Right Wing Canadian Nationalist?
canadianpatriot
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posted 04 February 2005 11:41 PM      Profile for canadianpatriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We've heard of left leaning Canadian Nationalists some in the NDP and some on this board. But I always wondered if there is such thing as a Right Wing Canadian Nationalist?

Any comments?


From: National Capital | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 04 February 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess that all depends on what you mean by right wing.

There were certainly Conservative nationalists (John Diefenbaker).

Economic right wingers have always been ready to wave the flag when it suited their purposes.

Even Brian Mulroney, an ass kisser if there ever was one, wrapped himself in the Canadian flag when running for election.


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canadianpatriot
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posted 05 February 2005 12:19 AM      Profile for canadianpatriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I always thought someone, who supports tax cuts the monarchy, the military, the flag whether it be the red ensign or Maple Leaf. all those good old fashioned patroitic themes.

I Consider myself a strong Patriot, however I don't like the idea of invading other countries al la G.W.B.

But then again I have a different idea of patroitism then other people.


From: National Capital | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 05 February 2005 12:59 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Orchard?
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Stockholm
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posted 05 February 2005 01:08 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is a very interesting question. Canada in fact may be the only country on the face of the earth where being leftwing tends to involve being nationalist whereas being rightwing usually involves being ANTI-nationalist. These days most rightwing opinion in Canada is all about denigrating anything Canadian and feeling that we should be more pro-American. Surely the most stereotypical headline in the National Post is "Canada Falls Further Behind".
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Leuca
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posted 05 February 2005 01:09 PM      Profile for Leuca     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know what right wing means. But it depends on what definition of Canadian Nationalist you're using. If a Canadian Nationalist is someone who does not support anything that the US does support and that does support anything the US does not, then no. If a Canadian Nationalist is someone who loves their country, loves the people of the country, wants the best for Canada and it's people, is willing to stand up for Canada's best interests at home and around the world, then yes.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 05 February 2005 01:10 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by NDP Newbie:
Orchard?

What would make Orchard "right-wing" ?


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Reverend Blair
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posted 05 February 2005 01:20 PM      Profile for Reverend Blair   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a friend who is a right-wing nationalist. His whole outlook on life is that we can do it ourselves and do not need anybody else.

He's a little extreme, would basically shut the borders to anybody who crossed us even slightly and would pull out of every multilateral organisation on the planet while arming ourselves to the teeth, but there is no doubt that he's pro-Canadian.


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swallow
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posted 05 February 2005 01:27 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Surely the most stereotypical headline in the National Post is "Canada Falls Further Behind".

Shouldn't that be "Canada falling further behind, poll says"? Followed by a sample of 100 people that in fact proves the opposite?

The Canadian right wing is highly nationalist, but they are nationalist towards the USA rather than their own country.

Nationalism is very left wing in a lot of countries. Quebec, for one.


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thorin_bane
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posted 05 February 2005 03:26 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dalton Camp is a rightwing nationalist. I see it as someone who want a strong military but not much else as far as government. I think it is because when we think right wing we think the US therefore you can't be rightwing(a love of the US) and be nationalistic. Canadian values are really leftwing values. But yes there are rightwinger who love this country and don't like the US.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 05 February 2005 03:30 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by swallow:
Nationalism is very left wing in a lot of countries. Quebec, for one.

Not to mention Winnipeg North, or Elmwood-Transcona


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lagatta
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posted 05 February 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heph, I don't understand your comment. Oh, I suppose we are a "nation", rather than a "country", which usually implies a sovereign state as well as a nation in the sociological sense. But the unofficial Québec national anthem is "Mon Pays", after all...
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Hephaestion
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posted 05 February 2005 04:52 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yaaa... I was just kinda having fun with Swallow's lax terminology. "Nation" I have no argument with at all; Canada is comprised of many nations, certainly not least of which are the First Nations. But countries.....?
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JayWay
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posted 05 February 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for JayWay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What does being a nationalist entail?

Or more specifically, what's the difference between a patriot/loyal citizen and a nationalist?

I'd like to think the majority of Canadians are loyal people who identify with the country and share a certain affection towards it, but this seems standard fare for any country. To me, this doesn't qualify as any above-the-call-of-duty super flag-waving nationalism.

I agree with those who suggest that the left in Canada holds a monopoly on what could be termed "Canadian nationalism".

It might very well be unfair to categorize many right-wingers as non-nationalist simply because they disagree with the current direction Canada is taking - one that goes in the opposite direction of the United States. But nonetheless, it is difficult to avoid this feeling when you surf some of the right-wing blogs and observe the plethora of stars and stripes clad banners and Yankee-boosting pictures posted in every nook and cranny of their webspace.

You do get the feeling that many right-wingers, instead of wishing Canada was more like the States, just wished they were American to begin with.


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Shane
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posted 05 February 2005 06:11 PM      Profile for Shane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
These days most rightwing opinion in Canada is all about denigrating anything Canadian and feeling that we should be more pro-American. Surely the most stereotypical headline in the National Post is "Canada Falls Further Behind".

What's very wrong with your statement is that you link 'denigrating anything Canadian' to being 'pro-American'.

I think you couldn't be more wrong.

True, there are some on the far right who are disappointed with our current government and contrast it with the more 'conservative' government south of the border, and cheer that on.

But they are hardly the majority, in my opinion. I think you can be pro-Canadian and pro-American at the same time.

In fact, what is immature of this nation is that we are always comparing ourselves to the Americans, when in fact, many aspects of these two nations are incomparable.

Canada is a great nation, but we shouldn't be afraid to compete internationally (and that includes the Americans).

Our goal should be to have the strongest economy, to have the lowest tax rates, to attract investment and keep our best and brightest.

At the current time, it seems like we're not competing with other nations. I find that disheartening.

Back to the point -- I most definitely consider myself a right-wing nationalist, and the vast majority of conservatives on the far-right want to be nationalists, but feel as though their nation is letting them down.

I don't necessarily think that's true by any stretch, but it's the argument most will give to you.

That too, is very disappointing. Just a few weeks ago I was writing about that wretched psycho bitch Ann Coulter on FreeDominion, and her comments regarding Canada (e.g. "They're lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent as us.", etc etc.).

I expected others to be outraged (as I was).

The reaction was saddenning. I got replies like "We may not like it, but she's right." and "Canada has become a socialist cess poll blah blah blah."

The point being, yes there are many right-wing Canadian nationalists, but there are also many on the far right who are so disillusioned with the direction the country is headed that their national pride is slipping away.

At least that's how I see it. I don't share the view that Canada is degrading.

But, regretably, we are losing our place in the world.

[ 05 February 2005: Message edited by: Shane ]


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skdadl
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posted 05 February 2005 06:32 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The old Conservative party was indeed nationalist, and I'm not talking only of the Red Tories, who tended to be more an Ontario and Maritimes phenom, but of western Conservatives like my dad, eg.

The rigorous Red Tory nationalism you will find in George Grant's classic Lament for a Nation, which is broadly Burkean in its resistance to a certain kind of modernism, which in turn Grant clearly identified with American popular culture. Someone has written recently and well on babble of problems with Grant's attitude towards modernism -- wish I could remember where -- that critique was well done. Still, everyone who thinks about our pickle on this continent should read Lament.

The C/conservatism that I remember from the last mid-century on the prairies had more to do with the powerful memories of sacrifice that ordinary Canadians had made in the wars, eg, or in opening up the west. My dad was no Red Tory, but I think that the Alliance loudmouths would have horrified him, as would the so-called "Calgary School." Western homesteaders were modest but idealistic people, highly resistant to Sam Slick carpetbaggers, who seem to be the noisiest voices coming from my old hometown these days. Calgarians used to be proud of Canada.

[ 05 February 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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ceti
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posted 05 February 2005 06:36 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, what is left-wing and right-wing?

Basically, on this continent, having a weak government leads inexorably towards domination by US business interests. The same is true for almost every other country in this hemisphere. In fact I would argue that the most patriotic government in the hemisphere is that of Venezuela's, which honours its history in all its programs of social uplift (like the Canadian Spanish Civil War battalion calling itself the Mackenzie-Papineau regiment). Moreover, left-wing nationalism is more apparent in smaller powers as an internationalist outlook is necessary to build alliances to confront the master. Being a right-wing nationalist doesn't get you anywhere except further isolation.

And domination by US business also means domination of the media and culture, which is why public funding of broadcasting and the arts is so important in maintaining the national identity. In fact we have been slipping ever since free trade went through and we gave up the idea of a unique and inspirational national dream. Basically, we have been coasting ever since, despite shining and diverse examples like Romeo Dallaire, Stephen Lewis and David Orchard.

What's left then is the Walmart style of patriotism which wraps itself in flags not even made in this country. The same is true for the US where their policies and business practices destroy small communities even while flying the flag more than any other business.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 05 February 2005 06:41 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Our goal should be to have the strongest economy, to have the lowest tax rates, to attract investment and keep our best and brightest.


OR, how's about these goals: that we have the cleanest environment, the most freely available health care system, the lowest poverty rate, the highest life expectancy, the best race relations, the lowest crime rate, the equality for women and sexual minorities etc... and by the way we can get ever more of the best and brightest if we open our doord to all those brilliant Americans who hate Bush and want to live in a better country!

There is no getting away from the fact that Canada exists in the first place thanks to people who did NOT want to join the US in 1776. Canadian nationalism will always have an element of anti-Americanism, because our existence as a country is based on rejection of being American. It can never be otherwise and those goes back to the War of 1812!!


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Shane
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posted 05 February 2005 07:28 PM      Profile for Shane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no getting away from the fact that Canada exists in the first place thanks to people who did NOT want to join the US in 1776. Canadian nationalism will always have an element of anti-Americanism, because our existence as a country is based on rejection of being American. It can never be otherwise and those goes back to the War of 1812!!

That first point is true, but I disagree that Canadian nationalism has to have a degree of anti-Americanism.

We can have a great friendship with the US that is beneficial for Canadians, one example of this is our economic integration with them while maintaining our political independence.

I think anti-Americanism is a very immature thing, and shouldn't be characteristic of Canada. And keep in mind that you can be anti-Bush without being anti-American.

Let's recognize the fact that Canada and the United States are two great, successfull, and independent nations.

If we have mutual respect for one another, as we should, there certainly should be no 'anti-Americanism' (as exemplified by Carolyn Parris, for example), or anti-Canadian rhetoric espoused by people like Tucker Carlson, Ann Coulter, and Bill O'Reilly.


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Shane
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posted 05 February 2005 07:31 PM      Profile for Shane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
OR, how's about these goals: that we have the cleanest environment, the most freely available health care system, the lowest poverty rate, the highest life expectancy, the best race relations, the lowest crime rate, the equality for women and sexual minorities

These should be our goals too. Of course (and I know you disagree), I believe that some of the things you listed (lowest poverty rate, for example) are extensions of what I listed.

Because in a country where business is vibrant and successful, that will be one of the end results.

But that's a whole other debate we could have. I know I wouldn't be converting anyone.

[ 05 February 2005: Message edited by: Shane ]


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faith
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posted 05 February 2005 07:45 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What proof do you have of the following?-
quote:
Because in a country where business is vibrant and successful, that will be one of the end results.

Business would seem to demand a certain amount of unemployment ( desperate citizens) and when people are employed business demands a low wage economy. The last 20 years have seen unbelievable gains in profits for corporations from millions to billions in increases yet where is the increase in wealth for working people?

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Reverend Blair
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posted 05 February 2005 08:56 PM      Profile for Reverend Blair   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Not to mention Winnipeg North, or Elmwood-Transcona

Well, out here in Transcona it's like having our own planet, nevermind country.

quote:
I think you can be pro-Canadian and pro-American at the same time.

I think a lot of what the left stands for...human rights, equality, an equal shot for working people, freedom of expression...is very pro-American. I get called anti-American all the time. One of the quickest ways to get that particular epithet thrown at you is to espouse the values and ideas presented by the USA's founding fathers.


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The Vicious
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posted 05 February 2005 09:20 PM      Profile for The Vicious     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I must argue against the statement that one may be nationalistic in regards to both Canada and the US at the same time. At least if such is true, they want one to consume/annex the other.

You can assume who wants to annex whome, generally.

And my answer to the thread's question would be no, as the right as an insitution seems ready to sell off the entire nation at first opportunity, even when claiming otherwise. Brian Mulrooney comes to mind.

[ 05 February 2005: Message edited by: The Vicious ]


From: Calgary, wishing I was back in Ontario | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 05 February 2005 10:02 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I must argue against the statement that one may be nationalistic in regards to both Canada and the US at the same time. At least if such is true, they want one to consume/annex the other.

You can assume who wants to annex whome, generally.


Yes, but that strain of annexationist nationalism is not much in evidence, these days -- not realistic.

It's plain that Canada could easily annex USia, if it wished to -- but why would it wish to? The USians caused enough trouble for themselves when they disbanded the Iraqi army. Can you imagine the consequences of the new government winding down the US military-industrial complex? Doesn't bear thinking on.


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maestro
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posted 06 February 2005 01:45 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We can have a great friendship with the US that is beneficial for Canadians, one example of this is our economic integration with them while maintaining our political independence.

Boy, are you ever living in dreamland. Have you not heard the right wing's constant harangues that if we choose political independence it will damage our economic relationship with the US?

There is no country in the world that has managed to remain politically idependent when their economy was tightly tied to another country.

quote:
I think anti-Americanism is a very immature thing, and shouldn't be characteristic of Canada. And keep in mind that you can be anti-Bush without being anti-American.

Tell that to the wizards on the right wing who haven't heard a anti-Bush administration that they didn't call anti-Americanism.

The truth is, the right wing makes no distinction between the current administration and the US generally. If you oppose the Bush rogue administration, you are anti-American and that's that.

Besides which, would you say that it was 'immature' of a Frenchman, say, to be opposed to the Hitler regime?

It's never immature to oppose totalitarians.

quote:
Let's recognize the fact that Canada and the United States are two great, successfull, and independent nations.

The last refuge of the terminally naive - well we're both just great countries, so why can't we just get along?

This may have escaped your attention, but the US spends 50% of the world's total yearly military expenditure, and they do it to make it possible for their bourgeoisie to steal the rest of the world's resources.

Like a huge bureaucracy (which they've become), the final answer to everything is self-protection by any means necessary.

Just as Stalin swerved here and there, backwards and forwards, in his attempt to preserve the bureaucratic state, the US at one and the same time, spouts rhetoric about democracy while destroying democratically elected governments, reviles terrorism while they spend more than all the rest of the countries in the world on the instruments of terror, spout endless rhetoric about freedom while they reduce freedom in their own country to fig leaf status.

quote:
If we have mutual respect for one another, as we should, there certainly should be no 'anti-Americanism' (as exemplified by Carolyn Parris, for example), or anti-Canadian rhetoric espoused by people like Tucker Carlson, Ann Coulter, and Bill O'Reilly.

Tell me again why I should respect a country that runs roughshod over friends and enemies alike, that has no principles but we need it so we'll take it, destroys peoples lives all over the globe, installs tyrants one minute then decides they need to be de-installed, spends billions supporting Islamic fundamentalists, then more billions trying to buy back the weapons they gave them in the first place.

What is there to respect?

[ 06 February 2005: Message edited by: maestro ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 06 February 2005 03:00 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no getting away from the fact that Canada exists in the first place thanks to people who did NOT want to join the US in 1776. Canadian nationalism will always have an element of anti-Americanism, because our existence as a country is based on rejection of being American. It can never be otherwise and those goes back to the War of 1812!!


But as per the theme of this thread, I don't think that I would consider the pro-British "Canadian" nationalsits of 1776 to be in any way progressive. The American project was flawed from the beginning, true, but let's not romanticize Hannover England either. People like William Blake, a leftist by the standards of his day and author of the poem that Tommy Douglas liked to quote, were in favour of the American Revolution.

In his book Why We Act Like Canadians, Pierre Berton mentions a cartoon that appeared in Saturday Night magazine around the turn of the century. A wholesome-looking WASP family, representing Canada, are shown sitting safely in their living room, while out the window we see the American border, accross which words like "n*gger music" and "Jew money" can be seen trying to flow into Canada. The point, of course, is that Canadians should resist the "n*gger music" and "Jew money" of the Americans.

I don't think the person who drew that cartoon, nor the people who were its intended audience, were in any way left-wing. Nor do I think that the Canadian law-and-order types who used to say, in the pre-charter days, that reading a suspect his rights was "an American thing that we don't need up here", are the kind of people who would join be on my side in struggles for social justice.

Basically, whether or not something should be considered left-wing or right-wing is going to depend on where it's historically situated. The American Revolution was a bourgeois affair through and through, but it isn't as if they were rebelling against the worker's paradise that was England. They were rebelling against an authoritarian aristocracy(and don't talk to me about American slavery: Britain was the first to bring slavery to the New World, and ran their industrial economy on Southern cotton up until the Civil War. Suffice to say that had Britian retained control of North America they'd have been in no hurry to abolish Southern slavery either). And a certain type of Canadian nationalst likes to go on about the horrors of the Fenian raids, without bothering to ask himself why some Irishmen were hepped up on attacking British territory to begin with.

These days, the United States is the metropolitan of the capitalist empire, so most reisitance to capitalism is going to be, in effect, resistance against the power of the United States. This doesn't mean, however, that anti-Americanism is always going to be left-wing.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 06 February 2005 03:08 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Tell me again why I should respect a country that runs roughshod over friends and enemies alike, that has no principles but we need it so we'll take it, destroys peoples lives all over the globe, installs tyrants one minute then decides they need to be de-installed, spends billions supporting Islamic fundamentalists, then more billions trying to buy back the weapons they gave them in the first place.


I could provide you with a list of times in which Canada has been complicit in American imperialism, for the sake of advancing its own interests. Off the top of my head, you've got Pierre Trudeau helping Canadian companies acquire US military contracts during the Vietnam War(while flashing peace signs with John and Yoko) Mulroney sending troops to the Gulf 1991, Chretien sending troops to the Afghan slaughter, Martin sending troops to Haiti, etc. Sure, we were(or, in the case of Haiti, are) fairly two-bit players in all of this, but then we're a fairly two-bit country to begin with.

So, by your own standards, are Canadians deserving of respect?

[ 06 February 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 06 February 2005 03:13 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Besides which, would you say that it was 'immature' of a Frenchman, say, to be opposed to the Hitler regime?


No, but if a Frenchman were to suggest that France's involvement with Nazism was simply a case of those evil Germans forcing the French against their will to collaborate with the Nazis, I would say that was a rather incomplete view.

And if the Nazi occupation of France were still going on, I'd say that it would be a somewhat counterproductive view to hold, because it would predispose the Resistance to ignore the fact that many of their beloved countrymen are willingly involved in some pretty bad stuff.

[ 06 February 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 06 February 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 06 February 2005 04:16 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
everyone who thinks about our pickle on this continent should read Lament.

This thread implies a really interesting question. I have no doubt that there are Canadian nationalists who don't see themselves as left wing. For example, conservative small-town values, which include respect for the police, the military, and other authority, maintaining high standards generally, and maintaining local control. It's pretty hard to be a Canadian nationalist and advocate dismantling the country or its institutions. So I guess the first question is, what is a Canadian conservative? The American branch-plant free-marketeers of the Calgary School are neither Canadians nor conservativces, being what is in Europe called economic liberals.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Shane
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posted 06 February 2005 10:47 AM      Profile for Shane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no country in the world that has managed to remain politically idependent when their economy was tightly tied to another country.

There absolutely is. And you're living in it.

[ 06 February 2005: Message edited by: Shane ]


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Stephen Gordon
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posted 06 February 2005 12:13 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred Day:

The American branch-plant free-marketeers of the Calgary School are neither Canadians nor conservativces, being what is in Europe called economic liberals.

Whaaaaa?

Did you just strip me of my citizenship?

And what's with the 'Calgary school'? I know a couple of smart people in the economics department, but the U of Calgary's influence in economics is pretty limited. In the last set of rankings I saw for the top fifteen economics departments in Canada, U of Calgary didn't make the cut.


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MacD
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posted 06 February 2005 01:39 PM      Profile for MacD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shane:
There absolutely is. And you're living in it.

Let me get this straight: as a supporter of the party that has argued that Canadian policy should be determined by our "friendship" with the USA (the Iraq invasion comes to mind as an example), you're trying to claim that Canada should not be concerned about American political domination??


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Stargazer
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posted 06 February 2005 02:03 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Our goal should be to have the strongest economy, to have the lowest tax rates,

Hmmm, I'm definitely NOT agreeing with this line. Stockholm laid it out nicely in his post as to why.

In regards to the reply that we can have both - ummm, sure....I have yet to see a person who calls for tax cuts to also call for stronger support for the environment, public housing, health, etc. More tax cuts mean less social spending. Not more. And usually none. See: history.

Again, I refuse also to let the millions of Americans who voted for Bush off the hook. They were not entirely duped (read: stupid). They voted for Bush because they loved their guns, hated gays, and wanted to maintain an aura of world superiority. That being said, these people are 100 percent culpable in the bloodshed thus far. No pity coming from me.

The day that Canada attaches itself to the freaks running America is the day I leave this country. I love Canada, but I don't love it that much that I would sit back and watch it become yet another state.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 06 February 2005 08:03 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
voice of the damned


quote:maestro
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me again why I should respect a country that runs roughshod over friends and enemies alike, that has no principles but we need it so we'll take it, destroys peoples lives all over the globe, installs tyrants one minute then decides they need to be de-installed, spends billions supporting Islamic fundamentalists, then more billions trying to buy back the weapons they gave them in the first place.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could provide you with a list of times in which Canada has been complicit in American imperialism, for the sake of advancing its own interests. Off the top of my head, you've got Pierre Trudeau helping Canadian companies acquire US military contracts during the Vietnam War(while flashing peace signs with John and Yoko) Mulroney sending troops to the Gulf 1991, Chretien sending troops to the Afghan slaughter, Martin sending troops to Haiti, etc. Sure, we were(or, in the case of Haiti, are) fairly two-bit players in all of this, but then we're a fairly two-bit country to begin with.

So, by your own standards, are Canadians deserving of respect?


This is not responsive to the question. The question was why should I respect the US as you suggest I should.

quote:
voice of the damned

quote:maestro
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Besides which, would you say that it was 'immature' of a Frenchman, say, to be opposed to the Hitler regime?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, but if a Frenchman were to suggest that France's involvement with Nazism was simply a case of those evil Germans forcing the French against their will to collaborate with the Nazis, I would say that was a rather incomplete view.

And if the Nazi occupation of France were still going on, I'd say that it would be a somewhat counterproductive view to hold, because it would predispose the Resistance to ignore the fact that many of their beloved countrymen are willingly involved in some pretty bad stuff.


Again, this is just evasion. You originally claimed that it as 'immature' to be opposed to the US. You didn't say it was an 'incomplete' view, or that some Canadians were just as bad, etc.

Make up your mind...


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 February 2005 08:12 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Shane
quote: maestro
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no country in the world that has managed to remain politically idependent when their economy was tightly tied to another country.
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There absolutely is. And you're living in it.


Is that why the business community keeps telling us that we have to 'go along' in order to protect our economy?

Is that why the business commentators tell us that the lumber tarriff dispute and the mad cow border closings were a result of Canada's refusal to 'go along' with the US invasion of Iraq.

Is that why Caroline Parrish is pilloried in every newspaper in this country?

Of course we're politically independent, so long as we don't try to get out of NORAD, NATO, NAFTA, and a host of other suffocating agreements imposed on us by the US.

And especially so long as we dont' decide to cut the US off from Canadian energy supplies, or prevent them from building a pipeline through Canada from Alaska.

Any move to do any of the foregoing would result in immediate and severe reprisal.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 06 February 2005 11:01 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You originally claimed that it as 'immature' to be opposed to the US. You didn't say it was an 'incomplete' view, or that some Canadians were just as bad, etc.

Make up your mind...


Maestro:

I think you have the wrong guy here. I never said that you should repsect the United States, or that it was immature to be opposed to the United States.

My point was that if you disrespect the USA as a country, then logic should dictate that you also disrespect Canada, which particpates in US imperialism to whatever degree its abilities will allow. I guess I was just wondering if you disrespect Canada as a nation as well.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 06 February 2005 11:12 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Of course we're politically independent, so long as we don't try to get out of NORAD, NATO, NAFTA, and a host of other suffocating agreements imposed on us by the US.

And especially so long as we dont' decide to cut the US off from Canadian energy supplies, or prevent them from building a pipeline through Canada from Alaska.

Any move to do any of the foregoing would result in immediate and severe reprisal.


Maestro:

Since this seems to suggest that Canada's involvement in US imperialism is something forced upon us against our will by the Americans, not something that Canadians wilingly participate in to further their own interests, I guess Ihave the answer to my question above.

For the record, though: The Trudeau government actively lobbied to get those Vietnam War contracts for Canadian companies. It's not like the Americans phoned us up and said: "Send us supplies for our war in Vietnam or ELSE!!" Had Trudeau not lobbied for contracts, they might have gone to another country.

As for NATO: your hypothesis that Canadians are forced to particpate has never been tested. This is because Canaidans have shown no interest in electing the one political party that is commited to withdrawing from NATO, probably because most Canaidans have little regard for the economic policies advocated by that party, and also have little interest one way or the other in the subject of NATO.

[ 07 February 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
p durand
rabble-rouser
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posted 07 February 2005 04:12 PM      Profile for p durand     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Leuca:
If a Canadian Nationalist is someone who loves their country, loves the people of the country, wants the best for Canada and it's people, is willing to stand up for Canada's best interests at home and around the world, then yes.

Will a so-called "canadien nationalist" stand up only for the canadien nation or the welfare of any nation. Canadien policy regarding the Quebec nation and aborginal people is clearly colonial and so-forth "right-wing". On that issu, NPD policy doesn't differ much then those of the liberals-conservatives.

So to my opinion there is no such thing as a left wing nationalist movement in Canada, only a right-wing one.

I also believe that the canadien nation reacted strongly that way because they felt the need to "tightens the ranks" against Britsh domination at first and American domination in recent decades. This reflex, while understandable, isn't working.

The uninted effect of this "reflex" is for Quebec and aboriginal nation to seek support to their own nationalism in Britain and US. Look at the Bloc treatning to use american dollars when the federalist bloc threatens to shorten supply of canadien dollars in Quebec.

It's also the support of the PQ to the conservative that made the election of the Mulroney governement possible and, therefore, the signature of NAFTA. This strategy of the PQ was a reaction of the Trudeau treat of a Canadien embargo on a sovereign Quebec during the 1980 referendum.

The recognition of the equality of every nation should have brought left-inclined canadiens to rebel to such arguments as embargo or money shortages regarding nation-to-nation relationship. It should also have raised similar response to the move of the Bloc-PQ move toward a neolibaralism. Sadly, in both cases it hasn't.

Looking back at how nationalism, wether for federalist-canadien or quebecois-seperatist, as all made us into nationalist-right wingers, I come to the conclusion that Quebec independance has to be made fast... but not at any cost.

[ 07 February 2005: Message edited by: p durand ]


From: montreal | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 08 February 2005 12:50 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by p durand:

Will a so-called "canadien nationalist" stand up only for the canadien nation or the welfare of any nation. Canadien policy regarding the Quebec nation and aborginal people is clearly colonial and so-forth "right-wing". On that issu, NPD policy doesn't differ much then those of the liberals-conservatives.

So to my opinion there is no such thing as a left wing nationalist movement in Canada, only a right-wing one.


Well if you're going to be snippy, two can play.

Seems to me you're conflating two very different issues. I think that NDP policy on first nations has been far more "left" and less colonial than either the liberals, conservatives, or for that matter Quebec sovereigntists, whose record on that issue doesn't seem to have impressed the first nations people themselves a whole lot (whoa, should that get the understatement of the year award or what?)

As to their attitude towards England's fellow imperialists who got less lucky than England did in the region, that's a different and far more complicated story which hasn't always reflected well on the NDP. But I'm not sure I buy Anglo-French tensions in Canada as "colonial". The tendency of some sovereigntists to wrap themselves in the "colonial victim" flag one second and then deny first nations' rights the next does not particularly impress me with their credibility. Classic PKB, as they'd say on alt.flame.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 08 February 2005 05:08 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think that NDP policy on first nations has been far more "left" and less colonial than either the liberals, conservatives, or for that matter Quebec sovereigntists, whose record on that issue doesn't seem to have impressed the first nations people themselves a whole lot (whoa, should that get the understatement of the year award or what?)

If I'm not mistaken, the genuine Nationalist Left in Quebec, that is the Social Democratic Party or whatever it is called, does in fact favour self-determination for First Nations. The nationalists who turn a blind eye to First Nations claims are those in the PQ and the BQ, the same ones who supported Free Trade in 1988.

Nevertheless, since those PQ voters were some of the same people that the NDP would like to attract federally in Quebec, I do agree that English Canadian nationalism is not likely to be much of a selling point in the province.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5089

posted 09 February 2005 09:34 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know a guy who hates every country except Canada and Germany, wants every language but English banned, always ridicules Americans, wants immigration limited to White people from Germany and the UK, wants to ban interracial relationships, wants to make fundamentalist Christianity the state religion, opposes same-sex marriage and considers homosexuality immoral but supports civil unions for same-sex couples of the same race for some reason, hates all centrists and leftists, and admits to having a gender policy based on Hitler's.

He's a Tory, but he lambasts Harper for being too moderate on social issues, too secular, and too pro-American.

Not surprisingly, he's from B.C's lower mainland.

[ 09 February 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Al Creed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8145

posted 10 February 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for Al Creed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps I missed his mention, when I briefly scanned this thread (And I appologize if I have missed his mention), but, the firt persion that comes to mind, whenever someone mentions "Right wing Canadian Nationalist" is Don Cherry.

I'm just glad our closest version to Bill O'Rielley is, usually, mostly concerned with hockey issues.


From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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