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Author Topic: Paul Martin
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 14 November 2003 09:28 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The media is infatuated with Paul Martin for some unfathomable reason. Do people here really think he will play well to the Canadian public? In person he can be charming, but frankly, this does not come across on TV. On TV, he fatigues me. Plus, sorry for the agism, he looks old and tired. We have been seeing him for the last 10-15 years. It's not as if he's a fresh face. I'm trying not to be the victim of wishful thinking. But I do wonder if Paul Martin will be as easy a sell to the Canadian public as he has been to the media.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 14 November 2003 09:43 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the current media infatuation with Martin -- by no means universal -- will prove brief, like all infatuations.

Martin doesn't strike me as either a natural or trained spinner, or as someone with significant charisma. There's only so much his press secretary will be able to do for him. Unless, which I grant is remotely possible, he actually comes through on his promise to inject greater democracy into Parliament, he'll quickly appear as he really is -- an intelligent, well-read, and perhaps well-meaning but basically plodding, pedestrian CEO with an agenda sufficiently to the right to be at least vaguely disquieting both to most media people, and to most voters.

I should add that I may be the victim of wishful thinking, here.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 14 November 2003 10:00 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It certainly took long enough for him to actually say anything important in his speech!
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 14 November 2003 10:02 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I must have missed the important part while yawning. The only way to make up for the lack of charisma is by coming out with exciting policies which just ain't on.

[ 14 November 2003: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]


From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 14 November 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Paul Martins speech was well written, competently delivered, and will be filed away with Croutons promise to rip up the free trade agreement. I watched the whole thing. My time would have been better spent watching "Touched By An Angel".

I drank several glasses of chablis while watching this speech, so it wasn't a total loss.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 14 November 2003 10:57 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I watched the whole thing. My time would have been better spent watching "Touched By An Angel".

ROTFL!!!

Can you please replace the writers on Air Farce? You're a whole not funnier than the pap I just saw on their Liberal-Love-In special.


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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Babbler # 44

posted 14 November 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Mayo:

Can you please replace the writers on Air Farce? You're a whole not funnier than the pap I just saw on their Liberal-Love-In special.

No kidding...and they also showed the whole Paul Martin campaign video. The CBC should not be the Liberal Party infomercial channel.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tim
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Babbler # 3145

posted 15 November 2003 12:05 AM      Profile for Tim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, they did need to somehow stretch the vote announcement and a 20-minute speech into a two-hour news special. But in fairness, if this had been a real leadership contest, they would have shown all the floor shows, including videos, in their entirety. The order was just mixed up in this case. (It was kind of amusing to see schedules like: "7 p.m. Announcement of results; 7:30 p.m. Paul Martin's acceptance speech".)

I'm obviously biased, but I was surprised how flat the speech was.


From: Paris of the Prairies | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 15 November 2003 12:17 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Can you please replace the writers on Air Farce? You're a whole not funnier than the pap I just saw on their Liberal-Love-In special.

Yeah...Air Farce sucked...found myself flipping over to Star Trek TNG re-runs.

My "beverage du Liberal convention" was Steam Whistle beer...the only good thing to come out of wrecking rail service in this country.


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 15 November 2003 12:30 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I spent my time watching Studio 2 and their new political panel (Sean Conway, Janet Ecker (nice to see she's landed herself a job) and Dave Cooke (ugh, at least Ruth Grier has a sense of humour and has the depth of perception to realise she's not a minister anymore, why did they have to dump her?)). Strangely, Paul Martin wasn't mentioned once.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 15 November 2003 12:42 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Janet Ecker is on Studio 2? Oh thank God. I thought after her participation in the presentation of the Ontario budget at the Magna training centre, when she had the look of a very nervous Bambi staring into the high-beams of a Ford Escape, she would be virtually unemployable. Think of the irony...welfare, unemployment insurance...Janet Ecker's face must have looked like Munch's "The Scream" when she lost her seat on election night.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 15 November 2003 12:46 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, well we better not give up on the charitable fundraising. There are still plenty of Tory ministers who can use a warm meal and a roof over their heads.

BTW did Martin win?

[edited to add]
LIBERAL LEADERSHIP VOTE (NOV. 14, 2003)
Total votes 3455
Spoiled ballots 2
Paul Martin 3242
Sheila Copps 211

I guess those two thought they were paying $900 for Bono tickets. Suckers!

[ 15 November 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 November 2003 02:33 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't even waste my time following that farce of a convention. Looked at the CBC's website, saw Paul's big ol' grinning face on it, went "hrump", and went back to doing something far more interesting, like counting my socks.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 15 November 2003 03:27 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the first time ever, I think Doc and I are on the same page. I turned it on long enough to hear Bono blowing sunshine up his ass (sellout), rolled my eyes, and went back to Oz.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eauz
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posted 15 November 2003 03:59 AM      Profile for Eauz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just hope that canada doesn't go back to being the 51'st state again. Though, I heard that Bush is happy to see Martin in power. Listening to the late night news last night, I heard he was in agreement with three things with the USA (2 of which I remember) Something like... Beef up Security in Canada, and build a missle defence program. Non of these are showing an example towards other poor nations to development, and creating a peaceful world.

Anyone think we will keep the attitude towards the USA or will we start missing the USA's feet again? And if Martin was in power before the War in Iraq occured, do you think we would have gone to war?


From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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Babbler # 3308

posted 15 November 2003 04:28 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eauz:
And if Martin was in power before the War in Iraq occured, do you think we would have gone to war?

Ohh, yeah. We'd have been in there in a flash.

I didn't watch, by the way. I was busy rereading tattered old pulp sword & sorcery stories. You know, the casual unthinking racism and sexism of writers in the thirties just hits you in the face, but the plots do move along quickly, and the prose is a nice vibrant purple. Beats watching a tired political hack stepping up to a foregone conclusion.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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Babbler # 44

posted 15 November 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An excellent review of Paul Martin's speech

"To call Paul Martin wooden would be an insult to truly wooden characters on TV, such as the literally wooden children's favourite Theodore Tugboat, who seems animated and lively in comparison."


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 15 November 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love John Doyle.

He seems to have hit the nail right on the head there -- glad it's not just me. Martin does play well to a boardroom crowd, just not to the ordinary public, or on TV. He speaks the corporate world's language of modish platitudes quite well. It's just that most Canadians couldn't give a shit about that.

Martin's face is not his ally. The corners of his mouth turn down, making him look perpetually weary or sad, an effect emphasized by the lines in his face, his upturned eyebrows, and his boring demeanour overall.

Back to John Doyle. He can be such a bitch. Isn't he great? Check out his review of Toronto 1, Toronto's new TV station:

quote:
After the new Toronto 1 channel launched recently with a gauche, self-congratulatory party, I thought I'd watch it for a week before writing about it again. Then I thought I'd give it 10 days. Now I've given it two weeks. I was waiting for something -- anything -- to write about.

I'm not saying that Toronto 1 is annoyingly air-headed, as some have said. I'm saying it's nothing. You've heard of a show about "nothing." Well this is an entire channel about nothing.

It is pointless to engage in finger wagging at Toronto 1, tempting though it may be. It's like lecturing a phantom. It's all blank. The studio lights are on at Toronto 1, but really there's nobody home. It's nothing, naught, nil, total nullity and, after two weeks I can only conclude that, daily, it strives to produce more nothing.


Lights are on at Toronto 1, but nobody's home


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 15 November 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, was the speech yesterday?

(Kidding, I knew it was. That just goes to show my interest level in what King Paul has to say. Normally I never miss political events or addresses.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 November 2003 05:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
if Martin was in power before the War in Iraq occured, do you think we would have gone to war?

That is the question, isn't it.

If there's a single thing that I hope Martin does pick up from Cretonne, it's that -- I am hoping that he will notice that, however gracelessly and hypocritically Chretien did it, his resistance to the USians over the last two years has resonated with the Canadian people. I hope that Martin takes that as a warning.

My admiration, of course, mainly goes to the Canadian people.

Above all, given how spineless all Canadian PMs are vis-a-vis heavy pressure from USian admins, I am hoping that Bush loses next year to someone just a touch less simian.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
stevepay
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posted 15 November 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for stevepay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
if paul martin was prime minister when the usa envaded iraq we would have been right at there side helping all the way..now that he is prime minister we will be helping much more then we are in the near future..
From: Vancouver | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
canadianpatriot
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posted 15 November 2003 09:01 PM      Profile for canadianpatriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Most Canadians wouldn't mind patching up relationships with the Americans, It is just that many many many canadians hate Geroge bush with a passion, maybe if a Democrat got elected next year, maybe it would be better.
From: National Capital | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 16 November 2003 11:16 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the Liberals have done themselves a great disservice. The fact is, Martin won this by a kind of slow, steady organizing within the party that bears little relation to the dynamic of a political campaign. A leadership race should also be a trial of many of the abilities a leader will need to show in an election campaign. Because of the Martinites' iron grip on the party apparatus, there was never any chance of this happening. It made for a boring leadership race, a boring convention, and no debate within the Liberal party (to the extent that there are ideas within the party at all).

Why people think there will be some translation from the Martin team's ability to sew up the Liberal party to any kind of flair for elections is really not clear to me. Of course, the Liberals have many advantages in strategic terms. I just don't really think Paul Martin is one of them.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 17 November 2003 12:21 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rasmus raven:
Of course, the Liberals have many advantages in strategic terms. I just don't really think Paul Martin is one of them.

Yeah. It's like the Liberals are saying "Look! We're so confident our party is people's only alternative, we can run a cardboard cutout for Prime Minister and still win!" It's disquieting to realize they're probably right.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 17 November 2003 12:31 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Absolutely. The coronation of Martin is the clearest sign yet that the Liberal party has come to see itself as without opposition. They believe (and not without some justification) that they no longer have to fight for elections.

In George Bowering's book "Egotists and Autocrats", outlining the terms of every PM of Canada, the section on Chretien was entitled "auto-pilot", which I thought was a fairly good assessment of this government: doing whatever it has to and no more. With no sense of threat, they feel no obligation to try to impress the populace, just avoid risky politics.

And only a government on auto-pilot, which believed they could not be defeated, would choose a man like Martin to lead the party. He's not a leader, or a man with particular skills of any note, he's just a manager who's good at pleasing the right people. A powerful man, no doubt, but at the core, still a yes-man and a flunky. This is exactly why he was overwhelmingly the favourite of the hopelessly corrupt Liberal party. They wanted someone who had no agenda, who wouldn't rock the boat or waste, with personal projects, the precious resources that should be going to their slush funds.

But this will backfire on them. The Canadian public isn't as pacified as they believe, and they're sick to death of Liberal business as usual. More than ever, the party needs the sort of person who will do what Chretien did so well: provide a clever and charismatic smokescreen for the Liberal bigwigs and their doners who are robbing the country. Instead they have Martin, who will be about as convincing as a man for the people as Marie Antoinette.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 17 November 2003 06:58 AM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

The media is infatuated with Paul Martin for some unfathomable reason. Do people here really think he will play well to the Canadian public? In person he can be charming, but frankly, this does not come across on TV. On TV, he fatigues me...

Yes and sadly we are in a very troubling scenario. What is left of the private sector media is diligently clinging to the notion of a one party state, giving god-like status to the major federal players of the day - the Chretiens, the Martins, the Manleys... and Canadians passively soak it all up.

To most Canadians, this is what a ruling party, a real federal political party - looks like. Honestly I don't see too many people around these days that really are aware that at the federal level there is more to Canada than just the Liberal Party. Canwest has certainly done a good job at glossing over the federal political scene here, let me tell you.

Honestly, it is going to take something monumental to get Canadians over and beyond Liberal rhetoric and have people start considering political alternatives again. I mean shit, it's normal for the NDP to be ignored by the media - but I must say, ask your average British Columbian what they think about Stephen Harper or the "unite the right" movement - and you'll get a dazed and confused face staring cluelessly back at you.

I'd like to say that the media will mature and begin covering the other political parties but I still have that "sinking" feeling that any coverage of federal politics in the mass media has the aura of inevitability. That is, inevitable Liberal rule indefinetly.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
not a terrorist
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posted 17 November 2003 06:12 PM      Profile for not a terrorist   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you're tired of Paul's love-in with the media, you should get involved in the WAITING FOR MARTIN cross-Canada tour being planned for April 2004 (just in time for the next federal elections).

It's like M. Moore's ROGER AND ME where GM CEO Roger Smith is Paul and "me" is played by NDP candidate David Bernans (who ran in Paul Martin's riding back in 2000). The one-hour documentary is the creation of veteran documentarian Magnus Isacsson and co-director animator/editor Sophia Southam.

Your local group can bring the WAITING FOR MARTIN tour to your home town. Just contact David Bernans for more information.

dbernans@sdf.lonestar.org


From: montreal | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
arborman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4372

posted 17 November 2003 06:22 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The right wing media has been infatuated with Martin for what I suspect is a very subtle reason.

They have built him up to be everything to everyone. As soon as he gets in, the disillusionment and frustration will begin. The pundits will immediately set to work at being disappointed at 'politics as usual' etc.

Then the other right wing party will be presented as the great hope for Canada.

Anyone disagree?

It's up to us to present the alternative...


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 18 November 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe thinks won't be so easy for Martin:

"The Martin juggernaut just may be losing its wheels. Martin could be facing a minority government like Lester Pearson had in 1963. Changes in strategy may be called for, and quickly. Martin will have to abandon his heavy-duty policy commitments like the democratic deficit and Third World responsibilities for the survival fundamentals of actual electioneering."


"Martin has none of the good luck Chrétien has had. There will be no more divided Right. There will be no Ontario sweep, no Quebec sweep, no Western one either.

There will be no Martinmania in the land. Paul Martin has none of the excitement and glamour that Trudeau projected."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_zolf/20031114.html

Having seen a bit of the replay of his speech on C-Span, I can attest to that last point. The man makes Al Gore look exciting.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tackaberry
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posted 18 November 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for Tackaberry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the throne speech Martin will stress new, and for the election management of these new ideas. The first to sqeeze out Jack and set himself apart, the second to ride out the wave of the conservative merger.

for the NDP, it is most important to take him down now, the throne speech. We have to throw as many wrenches into the image as we can.


From: Tokyo | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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Babbler # 3308

posted 18 November 2003 03:09 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd have more confidence in that last piece if it didn't treat "the West" as = "Alberta".
If it lacks crucial distinctions in one place, what might it lack in other parts?

From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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