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Author Topic: Denmark to lose its sovereignty
CPsPC
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posted 13 November 2003 09:00 AM      Profile for CPsPC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You Canadians are lucky to still have your sovereignty.

Danes are probably soon going to loose ours. Or rather, what's left of it. If we say Yes to the EURO (the EU common currency) the European Central Bank will decide our domestic economic policy. The Central Bank decides that now the policy of the EU is so and so - and then the Danish parliament is bound to pass this to be the Danish policy as well!

The foundation of the EU is right wing (who has ever heard of a left wing Central Bank manager?). This means the end of democracy in Denmark. If you're a socialist it's all right for you to organize, it's all right for you to go the polls every four years - but there's no way you can hope for any socialist economic laws to be passed. Even if there is a vast socialist majority in parliament.

If we don't do as it pleases the Central Bank manager we will be fined heavily (paying enormous sums to the EU).

There is going to be a referendum about whether or not to join the EURO and the only hope left is that we follow the swedish example and vote No!

This isn't vere likely, though. The pro-EURO side has the money, the media, the trade unions, the majority in parliament ...

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: Møllegade 10 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 November 2003 09:40 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm of two minds on this one, maybe even three minds??

First mind says that a loss of sovereignty is a bad thing, and if I relate it to the Canadian experience and think about how I would feel losing sovereignty to the US, I can completely sympathize with your feelings.

But, losing sovereignty as a partner in the EU, to my way of thinking, is not the same as losing it to the USA . . . you would be, more or less, an equal partner in the union, whereas a Canada/US "partnership" would be anything but "equal"

The other thought I have on the subject of the EU is that somehow, some country, or group of countries need to come together to become an effective politically, and militarily equal of the US . . . China might someday be that power, but the EU would be a welcome alternate moderating superpower.

I am not so much against "losing sovereignty" in a merging of countries as I am against a takeover of my democratic rights under the guise of merger (especially a merger based on the desires and wants of Coporate America.)

This "fear" may apply in the case of the EU, but there certainly a lot less chance of Corporate EU, usurping the democracy of individual EU countries as the chance that Corporate America can usurp Canadian democracy . . . hey, but I'm certainly no expert on the subject of the EU, so maybe there is just as good a chance of corporate takeover . . . I'm open to a change of mind(s) on the subject!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
babbler/dabbler
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posted 13 November 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for babbler/dabbler        Edit/Delete Post
Unfortunately, the US, via it's multinationals took over Canada a long time ago.

Your fears are real but the enemy is not the EU. Politicians in your part of the world are controlled by the same masters as we are in the so called North American free trade deal, by multinational corporations.

The market economy rules the world and all it's politicans.

We have just had a Canadian citizen returned to Canada after being picked up in New York a year ago and sent to Syria to be tortured. On a smaller scale, one of our provincial governments put caps on run away insurance premimums and the multinational insurance companies, mostly American are threatening to take them to the free trade court to charge them with "possible loss of revenue." In all cases where this has happened, the governments of both Canada and the US have had to pay the corporations.
I wish thAT YOU WERE RIGHT, BUT CANADA HAS ONLY A TENDER HOLD ON WHAT WAS A GREAT DEMOCRACY PRIOR TO THE 1970'S.
Read THe Silent Takeover and anything you can get by Canadian writer Linda McQuaig. At least that way you will know what is really happening.
Greetings from Canada!


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
CPsPC
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posted 13 November 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for CPsPC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Answer to babbler/dabbler

I know about NAFTA and that it favours the USA, but I wasn't aware of the corporates already having taken over your country. I don't know much about Canada, I'm sory to say. But I will read the book you recommend and get wiser.

However, my point was that in the EU we will loose what's left of democracy. Our parliament is going to be a farce.
I don't know if there's such a democracy trap in the NAFTA?

Greetings
Carsten Pedersen (CPsPC)


From: Møllegade 10 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 13 November 2003 07:38 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So then why are trade unions in favour of the Euro??

I was under the impression that most of the people who oppose the Euro (certainly in the UK) are rightwing nationalists who think that the EU is a socialist plot!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
babbler/dabbler
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posted 13 November 2003 07:39 PM      Profile for babbler/dabbler        Edit/Delete Post
This site is excellent. We learn from each other.Be sure to check out some other topics. It will be great to make a connection with someone in another part of the world who is trying to hang on to real democracy and cares about social justice.
PS
Your english is excellent, wish I could do as well in Danish!
welcome!

From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 November 2003 08:50 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CPsPC:
Answer to babbler/dabbler

I know about NAFTA and that it favours the USA, but I wasn't aware of the corporates already having taken over your country. I don't know much about Canada, I'm sory to say. But I will read the book you recommend and get wiser.

However, my point was that in the EU we will loose what's left of democracy. Our parliament is going to be a farce.
I don't know if there's such a democracy trap in the NAFTA?

Greetings
Carsten Pedersen (CPsPC)



Our NAFTA "democracy trap" is that corporations get to sue us if they believe any laws our government makes affects their bottom line . . . we have to be "fair" with American corporations, and by "fair" I mean that we are not allowed to protect our industries, or resources against American exploitation (ie. suppose Canada runs low on oil, we cannot simply say that we are now going to only use our oil resources for Canada . . . we can cut back production, but we cannot take any action to prevent the Americans from buying out whatever supply we decide to produce . . . so if the Americans want to drive our oil prices up so Canadian interests get priced out of the market, there is nothing we can do about it other than lock down all our oil wells.)

Of course, the US can do whatever they like to protect their resources, and all we can do is take our case to the NAFTA "courts", where although we almost always win our case, the US ignores the decision, and we are left with the choice of negoiating away our NAFTA rights in order for the US to meet us "half way", or trying to start a tariffs war!!

I would think that because the EU members are more equal in terms of size and economic powers, and have the opportunity to have other members to join up with your actions against any one bully, you are in a much better position than we are with only two members, one being 10 times the size of the other.

Fair trade is a good thing, just watch out for those advocating "free" trade . . . that's just a code word for unchecked capatilist imperialism!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 13 November 2003 08:55 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think there is still a good chance that Danes will vote against the EURO because their Swedish neighbours just did, despite the murder of Anna Lindh, who was heavily in favour.

It seems to be a three way nodding agreement between England, Sweden and Denmark when it comes to voting "no" for the Euro. Then again, we don't know how long this will last and what the Danish people want until the referendum is held.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 14 November 2003 05:11 AM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, at least the Danes can send members to the European Parliament and have some say in coalition matters. Denmark and other progressive democracies in Europe need to counteract the right wing tendencies emanating from the likes of Spain, Italy (under the Berlusconi regime) and the eastern European blocs that are entering the EU.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
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posted 14 November 2003 07:39 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
welcome to our Danish friends here:
spent some wonderful time this August in (cool, phew!) Denmark, and the country very interesting and successful (except for that horrible unexplained murder of the backpacker in Norregrade). Loved Copenhagen and lake district of Jutland.

If the Swedes or Brits or Danes do not want to join the euro zone, so be it; a currency is basically just a medium of exchange, although it also carries symbolic weight:
Canadians' funk in the 1990s was often tied to "plummeting" dollar, which then bounces back with the economy. So, what's the moral of the story?

Treat the euro decision as an economic one, and observe that the Germans and Italians and so on have widely different economic and social policies depending on their nationally elected governments.


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
babbler/dabbler
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posted 14 November 2003 08:54 AM      Profile for babbler/dabbler        Edit/Delete Post
Treat the euro decision as an economic one, and observe that the Germans and Italians and so on have widely different economic and social policies depending on their nationally elected governments.

The gap in social policy decisions in the entire western world, Read The Silent Takeover by British journalist Noreena Hertz, is almost impossible to discern anymore.
That is because everything is treated as an economic rather than a socially progressive decision for the good of the society it represents.
It is exactly because the politicians of the world are treating everything as strictly economics that democracy is being sold out to the highest bidder. In the process, politicians and governments have eroded their own ability to govern. The reward of unbridled greed. As usual, the most marginalized in our society suffer the most, but when control is in the hands of outside forces, you can't even vote out...that is real totalitariansm.
The only hope is for civil society to revolt via the economy, not to support the new masters. That is why we have to know what not to buy and who not to believe and support.
The best thing we could do to save the planet would be to throw out our TV sets. No it is not bookburning!
There is precious little on TV that is not commercial propoganda and since it is also the way the politiians come to us,and why they sell out for hugh campaign donations, they would have to come back out of their silver tubes and face the people. TV is the opiate of the masses.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
CPsPC
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posted 14 November 2003 08:08 PM      Profile for CPsPC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was an overwhelming response to my message. It is positive that you want to read about the difficulties of a small country.

I didn’t know that the American domineering in the NAFTA was that big but I should have known. I’ll read the books I was recommended and learn a little about Canada – and the glorious US. These years the US do pretty much as they like, don’t they?

Both the NAFTA and the EU are based on “free” trade and economic “cooperation”. The big difference is that the EU is supposed to become a kind of federal state with a common government, parliament, and courts. It’s a coalition between the political parties and the corporates aiming at leading bourgeois politics. Cooperation sounds good but you have to consider the premises.

It is not a cooperation between equal states. Germany and France are paddling their own canoes, taking care of their own interests. The small countries have very little influence unless they form a majority, which is difficult because the largest countries have more votes.

One example of the “cooperation”: some years ago Denmark was sentenced to stop all subsidies to the shipyards – while Germany went on giving money to their own shipyard-industry (this was possible due to some doubtful technicality). The more countries that are allowed into the EU, the more desperate France, Germany and GB will be to preserve their own interests and playing the superior role.

In Europe there’s a Round Table of Industrialists, consisting of some of the biggest corporates in Europe. Its agents in Bruxelles have a tremendous impact on the EU politics. Lobbying is a popular sport in the corridors of the huge bureaucratic machinery of the EU institutions. Those with most money backing them are most likely to win. Guess who!

The Euro is not just a common currency – with it comes a membership of the EMU (the European Monetary Union) that defines the economic politics of the member states. This leads to the situation I described in my first message: the manager of the Central Bank in reality determining the Danish economic politics. Which is non-socialist. This is understood. A few days before the June 1992 referendum (which resulted in a Danish No to the Maastricht), a manager from the Danish National Bank said on Danish television that with the Maastricht treaty “it will be the end of socialist experiments”. No one contradicted her, either journalists or any of the politicians present.

In Denmark all the major political parties agree to say Yes to the Euro and the EMU. The trade unions have since the turn of the century been closely related to the Social Democrats, which explains their Yes.

That’s all, folks. For now. I’ll be back with more information about the EU – and please tell me more about the NAFTA.


From: Møllegade 10 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 15 November 2003 01:46 AM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Denmark isn't as progressive as it used to be. At least the governing "Venstre" has been less progressive policy wise than the former governing Social Democrats.

What I found interesting when I was in Denmark this summer was that their parliament was going to be arguing over whether Sihks should be allowed to wear their traditional head dress, ( and other similar nationalities ) in all public servant sectors.

I used to think how unprogressive Canada was because we are FINALLy debating the gay marriage issue, that Denmark has opened up to nearly a decade ago, however Denmark is now embarking on a debate that Canada has solved nearly a decade ago.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 15 November 2003 01:50 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At least you're getting a vote.

Who is this central bank manager? Who appoints him? How easily can he be replaced? Ideally, such a person should be elected by the populace. If your country does vote yes, you might start advocating for that option.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 November 2003 02:51 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
At least you're getting a vote.

Who is this central bank manager? Who appoints him? How easily can he be replaced? Ideally, such a person should be elected by the populace. If your country does vote yes, you might start advocating for that option.


For all practical purposes, Jacob, the Central Bank of the EU is just the Deutsche Bank of Germany writ large.

The Deutsche Bank has been one of the most stridently anti-inflationary central banks since the Second World War, even outdoing John Crow and Gordon Thiessen in their burning commitment to use the lever of interest rates to keep inflation down at the expense of higher unemployment. Once the EMU was formed with the requirement of fixed exchange rates among the members of the now-EU, this meant that the monetary policy of the EU has essentially, even before its creation, been driven by Germany. Not cool.

For example, when the US Fed was busy cutting interest rates in 2001 and 2002, the ECB barely budged, even though this meant a loss of policy coordination designed to get the world's largest economies back into a mutual-growth path instead of one expanding as another contracts, as was often the case in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Here's the Org Chart. Also, over here is the home page of the ECB.

The ECB guy is a man named Wim Duisenberg, who certainly embodies the German-central-banker way of doing things.

Addendum:

quote:
The Executive Board of the ECB consists of the President, the
Vice-President and four other members. All are appointed by common
accord of the Heads of State or Government of the 12 countries
which form the euro area.

That's from this wonderful PDF file.

[ 15 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eauz
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posted 15 November 2003 04:09 AM      Profile for Eauz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You might lose your currency, but I don't think you will literarly(sp) lose your sovereignty. I was living in Belgium during the year of 2001-2002 and we turned over to the Europ on 2002, but I still felt (even though I am canadian) as a belgian. And life really didn't change much for people. And anyways, on the back of the Euro, you will have a special picture (or more) relating towards Denmark. Unless you are 100% anti-Euro, I'm sure you will still feel like a Danish (is this right?)
From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
CPsPC
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posted 15 November 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for CPsPC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To you all

I can see that you, Dr Conway is well oriented, and quite right too. The Central Bank is just the German national bank in disguise. Hysterically reacting whenever something that look like inflation appears.

The chairman of this body that decides the overall economic politics in the EU is not elected by the people, the same can be said about the Commission, which is a kind of government that make proposals for EU initiatives between the meetings of the Minister Council.

If there will ever be a common government maybe we will be allowed to elect some of the EU politicians and bureaucrats directly. This means that Danish voters will drown in the 2-300 mil. population of the EU. Today at least we have a say in the choice of e.g. the commissioners. So we are in fact in the strange situation that more democratic bodies will mean less democracy, at least for small countries like Denmark!

Remember that several more East European contries and others try to get into the EU. We will soon be 20, 30 ... who knows how many members of the EU. Denmark will fade away in this chaos.

Greetings
Carsten (CPsPC)


From: Møllegade 10 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 15 November 2003 11:00 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting opinion, that I frequently hear voiced by Europeans, including those from large countries such as the UK, is that they will be lost and drowned in the overall population of the EU.

The overall population of the EU is comparable to that of the United States. Yet one rarely hears, say, Rhode Islanders complaining about being lost in the shuffle. Or perhaps I don't know enough Rhode Islanders.

Denmark will still be Denmark, and Liechtenstein will still be Liechtenstein within the EU. The loss of culture and local identity isn't going to be any stronger or faster than it already was in a modern era of mass media/marketing and lowering of barriers to movement between countries.

And belated welcome to babble, Carsten. Nice to have a fresh voice from outside the Anglo/American sphere.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
babbler/dabbler
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Babbler # 4633

posted 15 November 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for babbler/dabbler        Edit/Delete Post
As Dr Conway was saying...
I wonder if you can find a group like this in Denmark. It all starts with this kind of discussion and the kind of info that folks like Dr Conway can provide.
Surely you are not the only Great Dane!
One good site about banks and insurance companies is a link from www.corpwatch.org.
Keep in touch Carsten

From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 15 November 2003 01:08 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I generally do not try to develop an opinion as to whether any country in particular ought to join the EU. It is up to them, basically.

The overall process of Eurification seems to me to be a good one though, if only to insure that the last century's antagonisms among European nations can be made into internal political questions with possible institutional means of resolution.

It's nice having a second power in the world, too.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CPsPC
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posted 15 November 2003 05:48 PM      Profile for CPsPC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have read about the idea of the EU as a "second power" in the world several times now.
I wouldn't use that as an argument for having a strong EU.

When I hear or read this argument I come to think about "1984" by George Orwell. In the world of this book there are three mega-powers in a never-ending war with each other. Though it's hard to imagine right now I think the possibility of such a situation will not be impossible in, say, 50 years.

Already there are forces in the large countries of the EU working for speeding armament in the EU. Maybe the third party in this scenario could be China.

But of course it's nothing but a nightmare so long as the US is so far ahead considering weapon technology.

Maybe we heard the first little peeps of resistance to the US in the vague protests of France and Germany against the war in Iraq.

Carsten


From: Møllegade 10 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
CPsPC
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posted 19 November 2003 08:09 PM      Profile for CPsPC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've posted under a "new topic" (The EU)

Carsten


From: Møllegade 10 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged

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