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Author Topic: The Enemy Of My Enemy Is My Friend?
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 15 May 2002 07:02 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay. I don't like David Duke. David Duke doesn't like Isreal. Do I, then, have to uncritically support Isreal?

Discuss.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 15 May 2002 07:44 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just because someone you dislike takes a stance similar to yours does not invalidate the basis of your stance, as long as you don't base it on the same asinine logic.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 15 May 2002 07:51 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, if DD jumped off a bridge would you, or wouldn't you?
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 15 May 2002 08:18 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good question. Right up there with does she... or doesn't she?
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 15 May 2002 08:58 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jesse Jackson has criticised Israël.

Does David Duke like Black folks?


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 16 May 2002 04:49 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The "Ian Salim" syllogism:

Oranges are fruits. This apple is a fruit. Therefore, this apple is an orange.

Fortunately, I highly doubt the future of symbolic logic rests in Mr. Salim's hands.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 16 May 2002 08:13 AM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Clearly in this world many opinions prevail and at times they may intersect. When your opinion starts sounding like David Duke, you have to take a strong look at what you are saying and determine if you are going down the correct thought process.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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Babbler # 2401

posted 16 May 2002 08:18 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does Ian know that there is a thread entirely devoted to his idea. He should be flattered.

Someone should tell him, but then again perhaps if we don't bother him, he will go away.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 16 May 2002 08:22 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys are such narrow empiricists. Imagine, restricting your inquiries to narrow logic and hard evidence. I think we should explore the wider worlds of all sorts of arcane hermeneutic practices and associational logic. I myself would be happy to conduct an advanced class in reading entrails.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 16 May 2002 09:18 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of entrails, I eviscerated another thread and found this.... I hope Michel notices that it is missing.

quote:
At work, there is even an Iranian woman (who fled the Ayatollahs in the late 1990s) who said last week she hoped the IDF went into Gaza to physically get rid of Hamas - at lunch, we almost all fell out of our chairs.

You see Michel, the problem here is that you are SURPRISED by this. It is not surpisng to me at all. The fact that everyone is surprised is an exmple of the endemic pan-classification of Arabs, Persians and Muslims having a unified world view.

I would not be surprised if the woman you are speaking with is an associate of the WCPI (Workers Communist Party of Iran), you might inquire, gently. She will certainly be aware of them.

I argue with these cats all the time.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 16 May 2002 11:04 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Okay. I don't like David Duke. David Duke doesn't like Isreal. Do I, then, have to uncritically support Isreal?

Of course not. And it is vile for people to attempt to tar all critics of Israel with the David Duke brush. (Publishing Duke is another matter -- but that reflects only on the Arab newspaper in question.)

Which raises this point --

quote:
Imagine, restricting your inquiries to narrow logic and hard evidence. I think we should explore the wider worlds of all sorts of arcane hermeneutic practices and associational logic.

The left knows all too well how "arcane hermeneutic practices and associational logic" can be used by racists and bigots. It's called speaking in code, and we've rightly pointed out how people like Ronald Reagan ("welfare queens"), George Bush ("Rodney King") and a whole host of more recent right-wing politicians deliberately appeal to bigots while avoiding making openly bigoted statements. We should remain on our guard about this. There's very little direct evidence in Duke's article, after all, of open bigotry -- but he knows the crowd he's playing to, and he knows the symbols that matter, and this simplifies his task.

It's no use for the Left to be acutely sensitive to this tried-and-true method of spreading hate propaganda only when it's used by the Right. Mimichekele pointed out some rather obvious examples of someone on this board speaking in well-known forms of anti-Semitic "code," and he was largely dismissed.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 16 May 2002 11:13 AM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup,

You seem to have forgotten amongst your Reagan, Bush etc.. the following example:

Would Israel declare that it is a state based on racism and religious bigotry ? I don't think so.

Then perhaps Israeli discourse should not be published.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 16 May 2002 11:33 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Clearly in this world many opinions prevail and at times they may intersect. When your opinion starts sounding like David Duke, you have to take a strong look at what you are saying and determine if you are going down the correct thought process.

This little intellectual self-destruct sequence discredits you as much as Ian Salim's stupid and ridiculous argument discredited him. I mean really, it doesn't even work well as rhetoric -- it makes it look like you're clutching at straws.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 16 May 2002 11:51 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mimichekele pointed out some rather obvious examples of someone on this board speaking in well-known forms of anti-Semitic "code," and he was largely dismissed.

Frankly I miss Michi, but my objection to his 'investigation' is that there are a number of people who I think are using a societally established and therefore NOT SO OBVIOUS anti-Arab code, and that if he was going to look for anti-semitism, he should be looking at racism in general.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 16 May 2002 12:19 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mimichekele pointed out some rather obvious examples of someone on this board speaking in well-known forms of anti-Semitic "code," and he was largely dismissed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mean "duly dismissed"? and may I add "even by B'ni Brith". Simply because Mimichekele, like other pro-Israeli behaviour folks, sees things that are not there.

I certainly miss Mimichekele. This is not a war zone nor a forum for resentment or even dislike amongst Babblers.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Riffraff ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 16 May 2002 04:32 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Frankly I miss Michi, but my objection to his 'investigation' is that there are a number of people who I think are using a societally established and therefore NOT SO OBVIOUS anti-Arab code, and that if he was going to look for anti-semitism, he should be looking at racism in general.

I don't perceive any logic in this at all.

Mimi's investigation of anti-Semitism was wrong because he wasn't also looking for less obvious examples of anti-Arab racism? If we want to look at "racism in general," isn't looking at racism in particular a good place to start?


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michel Sapcaru
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2618

posted 16 May 2002 04:37 PM      Profile for Michel Sapcaru        Edit/Delete Post
Neither do I. The guy Mimichekele wrote some pretty thoughtful stuff on the difference between anti-israel politics and anti-semitism.

He had a grievance, he was asked to document it, he documents it and he got brushed off or dismissed without so much as an explanation.

What's the point of a code on Babble if a person goes through the motions and the organizers don't even respond?

Anyway, that's in the past. It's not a huge deal

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Michel Sapcaru ]


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 May 2002 05:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has it ever occurred to you that Mimichekele got his ass kicked because he started playing this bullshit cloak and dagger game by making vaguely threatening references to heavyweights being brought in to "evaluate babble" and making veiled references to the investigation he had asked audra to commence, obviously expecting that someone else other than he would be kicked off.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 16 May 2002 05:33 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, no, DrC, it didn't occur to me. But that's probably because Mimi left the board willingly-- he was not kicked off. Nice story, though.
From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 16 May 2002 05:33 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
DrConway wrote:

quote:
Has it ever occurred to you that Mimichekele got his ass kicked because he started playing this bullshit cloak and dagger game by making vaguely threatening references to heavyweights being brought in to "evaluate babble" and making veiled references to the investigation he had asked audra to commence, obviously expecting that someone else other than he would be kicked off.

I thought Mimichekele left babble by his own choice, rather than being kicked off. But I agree with the gist of DrC's post. Rather than simply reporting his concerns to the moderator and allowing her to do her job, Mimichekele started a new thread for the express purpose of making public his accusations and drawing attention to the panel of anonymous experts he had drafted to assist him in his investigation. While he assured us of the qualifications of these experts, I was far more concerned with the fact that they were of his choosing and known only to him.

I agree that his posts were intelligent and articulate, but he went way over the top and I would have been quite concerned and surprised had his approach been encouraged.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michel Sapcaru
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2618

posted 16 May 2002 05:35 PM      Profile for Michel Sapcaru        Edit/Delete Post
Nope, don't recall Dr. Conway.

I do recall though that he wrote that he specifically had never asked for anyone to be kicked off. He was quite explicit about that latter point. That was never part of the complaint he made public. As the above link shows, he never created a panel of experts some people are accusing him of. He did something altogether different and eminently reasonable: consult others to make sure he wasn't falling prey to some misundersranding. Hell, I always consult people when I am not sure of something.

People on Babble who take reasonable measures, who try to verify stuff, who consult others, don't seem to last very long.

Anyway, that's in the past. No big deal.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Michel Sapcaru ]


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 16 May 2002 05:39 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nope, don't recall Dr. Conway.

You should remember quite well, Michel. You and "That guy Mimichekle" have the same password.

What a fluke!


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 16 May 2002 05:46 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From The Jargon Lexicon:

quote:
sock puppet n.

[Usenet: from the act of placing a sock over your hand and talking to it and pretending it's talking back] In Usenet parlance, a pseudo through which the puppeteer posts follow-ups to their own original message to give the appearance that a number of people support the views held in the original message.



From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 May 2002 05:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As we IRC people say......

BUSTED!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 16 May 2002 05:53 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People rarely speak so glowingly about a former poster unless they are that former poster.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michel Sapcaru
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2618

posted 16 May 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for Michel Sapcaru        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, so?

If I happen to know the guy and he leaves, why can't he suggest a password?

I did that at my last job - left my password to someone else. D'uh.

If you read his stuff, he was Belgian or something. Sapcaru is of Romanian origin, from the town of Galati on the Black Sea. Not exactly the same part of the world.

Man, some people are suspicious. You want a photo or a family pedigree?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 May 2002 05:59 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're so unimaginative you can't come up with your own password?

Jesus, what a dimbulb. And people wonder why I have such a cynical view of the average computer user...


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 337

posted 16 May 2002 06:00 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The point of the matter is that many of the most vociferous backers of the anti-Israel position are anti-semitic polemicists. These people are particularly identifiable by their black and white depiction of the issues and their position that Israel does not have the right to exist.

The one thing I've noticed upon my critics are personal attacks. I won't stoop to that. I let the facts speak for me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 16 May 2002 06:00 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've often had that conversation:

Audra: Hey, have you ever heard of the Hissyfit boards?

Estrones: I have not! Please tell me!

Audra: They're pretty good. I don't post on them much anymore, but you should check it out.

Estrones: Oh that sounds like a lot of fun! But wait! I can't. I don't know any passwords.

Audra: Oh! Well, hey, since I'm not posting there much anymore, you can use mine! It's "clutterbuck".

Estrones: Hey, wicked! Thanks! You're a life saver!


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 16 May 2002 06:00 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you know him, well enough for him to "suggest" a password, but not his ethnicity, except that he "was" Belgian? Isn't he still?
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 16 May 2002 06:02 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
These people are particularly identifiable by their black and white depiction of the issues and their position that Israel does not have the right to exist.

And who here holds the position that Israel does not have the right to exist? I challenge you to name one poster who's unambiguously argued this position.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 16 May 2002 06:02 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fact is that Babble automatically assigns a password, and you have to deliberately change it.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 337

posted 16 May 2002 06:05 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on the nature of the critics of Israel that I speak of.

http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.campus.0514w


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 16 May 2002 06:05 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought not.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 May 2002 06:06 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The point of the matter is that many of the most vociferous backers of the anti-Israel position are anti-semitic polemicists.

I'm not going to dignify this crap with anything but a big fat BEEEEEEEEEE. ESSSSSSSSSSS.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 16 May 2002 06:11 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The point of the matter is that many of the most vociferous backers of the anti-Israel position are anti-semitic polemicists.

Right and many of the most vociferous backers of Israel, as is the wont of vociferous tribalists and nationalists everywhere, are Arab-hating racists who say things like "one million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail". So what? If you focus on the extremists on any side, you are playing into a dehumanizing strategy. "They are X-hating baby-eaters... so whatever we do must be right! They're not even human!" You are presenting us, Ian Salim, with what is known as a red herring argument. In other words, no argument at all.

quote:

These people are particularly identifiable by their black and white depiction of the issues


Oooooo... and the Israel-is-always-right brigade on Babble are just the masters of nuance!!!

quote:
and their position that Israel does not have the right to exist.

What 'lance said... show me the evidence. I don't recall a regular poster on this topic critical of Israel who has this position. I don't even recall a single post on Babble to that effect, though I could easily be wrong about that.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 16 May 2002 07:45 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How many times the question has been put to our pro-Israel friends who claim that there is or are people on the forum who deny Israel's rights to exist:

Could you please name the Israel's right to exist denier or deniers and quote them ?

Or is it only Zionist whining of the genre "we are surounded by hostile Arab countries", coming out the fourth largest military power in the world ?

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Riffraff ]

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Riffraff ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 16 May 2002 08:19 PM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What 'lance said... show me the evidence. I don't recall a regular poster on this topic critical of Israel who has this position. I don't even recall a single post on Babble to that effect, though I could easily be wrong about that.

Maybe this qualifies:
quote:
You would compound the crime of 1948, and indeed you have made yourself an accomplice. Rather I say that Israel needs to return the land it stole, or at least acknowledge that it was predicated on a theft.

Posted January 20, 2002 06:13 PM in the Submerging Homes in Palestine thread.

From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 16 May 2002 08:47 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not even close and no cigar. Maybe in your mind this is equivalent, but it patently is not.

One could say, for example, that the creation of the United States was predicated on the crime of genocide of the Native Americans, without thereby saying or intending that the United States had no right to exist. There are plenty of people who are not Zionists, in the sense that they don't support the original creation of Israel, but who nevertheless support the continued existence of Israel. And there are plenty of people who are full-on Zionists who completely oppose the Occupation. So the case for Ian Salim's attempt at drive-by smearing still lacks a single shred of evidence, and it's going to need a good deal more than that to establish the strong claims that Ian Salim was making (and you yourself, in the private message you quoted yesterday).


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 May 2002 09:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The one thing I've noticed upon my critics are personal attacks. I won't stoop to that. I let the facts speak for me.


Okay, but what is this:

quote:
The point of the matter is that many of the most vociferous backers of the anti-Israel position are anti-semitic polemicists.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 16 May 2002 09:07 PM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ras, I wish you could be just as diligent in viewing anti-semitism as you are in detecting homophobia in which you are very good and for which I applaud you (and share your concerns).

To my mind, anti-semitism is not an argument.
Homophobia is not an argument.
Misogyny is not an argument.
Sexism is not an argument.

It's all bigotry. Regardless of how well it's dressed up, or how eloquent the description.


From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 16 May 2002 09:25 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
People rarely speak so glowingly about a former poster unless they are that former poster.

Well, now I've seen it all. A moderator who makes false accusations about other posters (she would know if it were true, after all), then drops broad hints about their passwords. Classy, Audra, very classy.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
peacepiper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2489

posted 16 May 2002 10:19 PM      Profile for peacepiper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RE: passwords,

Yes, at least out someone who has the same password AND IP, like me. It would make me feel better if i knew you warned Michel first before embarrassing the poor bugger. He probably just needed some lovin to get over his anger. And making people outcasts is not cool, no matter how many insults they dish out.


From: fd | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 16 May 2002 10:48 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dropped no hints, dude! The pretend password I gave was someone's mother's maiden name. It bore no resemblance to the oft-used password of Mimichekele.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michel Sapcaru
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2618

posted 16 May 2002 11:01 PM      Profile for Michel Sapcaru        Edit/Delete Post
Wow. I go away for a social function - and come back to strange explanations about passwords.

And I get accused of committing identity fraud on an open forum like Babble. Of course, whenever I decide to commit identity fraud, I use my real name. Okie dokie.

Thanks - I am not only accused of fraud, I am accused of abject stupidity. I do that all the time when I commit fraud - last week, my wife and I went to the bank to negotiate something so of course I lied about our assets and signed my own name to the papers.

In my profile, I indicated I work as an Internet content provider. I think I understand a little tiny bit about e-mail and Internet accounts. Where I work, we have a few hundred thousand users, each with their own user name and password.

The user names have to be unique but our system has no problem if different people have the same password. It makes no difference from a technical point of view. If people don't log into their accounts after a certain period, they are sent a series of e-mails askng them if they still want the account. If they don't respond, the user name is given up and is made available to other people. We don't f---ing care about your password - share it around if you want, it doesn't make a difference. IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Audra, you're in charge of this board, you probably know this technical stuff. It's totally basic. It's beginner stuff, man. Puh-leeze.

Yeah, so you send an e-mail password written in numerical gobbledeegook and the recipient has to change it - or not, or adopt an existing password... Is that really that complicated? Is it really that strange? You know someone, you go to their house, they are bitching about Babble and you start talking about it. You say you have to check it out for yourself, you have to make up your own mind. They log in, show you the site - then you register... You're right there, why not use their e-mail? Jeez. Life is so simple - you guys really need conspiracies?

I signed up myself and my wife for webreference.com (web design site) and for workopolis.com (job site). I chose two different user names and we use the same password. I subscribe to FreePint, an information industry newsletter. My wife signed up too - I told her to use my f---ing password. Who cares as long as the security system adopted by the provider and by the site is robust and the user names are unique? D'uh and double d'uh. The system won't allow two people with the same user name. Wooow. Wooow. Woooow. It is so ele-fucking-mentary, if you have the system. Since Audra administers Babble, she has to know this

This is unbelievable.

I registered for Babble maybe 8-10 days ago. In a week or so, I have been attacked as a) a racist (because I responded our of courtesy to someone posting an article about a young Israeli soldier's experience and tried to understand what happened); b) being a book-burner because I am interested in Noam Chomsky and have reached no conclusions about a perhaps minor part of his oeuvre (in other words, I am a 1933 member of the Hitler Youth), c) a right-wing Zionist (despite writing I like Tikkun, a left-wing anti-occupation and pro-refusenik journal); d) a member of some conspiracy of undefined nature (it seems I must wait for instructions from my superiors before posting anything); e) someone who goes about committing identity fraud and ; f) by implication, someone who is probably a stupid fuck and an incompetent boob at my job because I don't understand e-mail and passwords despite working for a place that is based on administering hundreds of thousands of the damn things.

You know what? I worked in the media for many years before switching occupations and developed a thick skin and a strong stomach. On the job, I once had an M-16 pushed into my belly. I once had a gun put to my temple and the trigger cocked. I was threatened at knife point. I was followed by gangs and threatened working on stories. I was yelled at for being a dirty separatist and I was yelled at for being a dirty federalist traitor. But all of that was over many, many years. Like any other normal person, I can only take so much bullshit.

Recently, I was getting increasingly frustrated with globalization, corporate concentration, erosion of social programs, increasing pollution and I wanted to start looking around for new ideas and some political inspiration. I was told: try Babble, they have alternative ideas, it's a "community".

In ten days, that's not what I found. I remember now why I stopped being politically involved and going to events of so-called "progressive" causes: the denunciations, the thought police, the screaming, the attempts to impose some orthodoxy and to crush and destroy any people with doubts or questions. It has all come flooding back.

I guess my exploration of "alternative" is over for a good little while. My alternative right now is to go back to voting Liberal.

At least the Liberals know how to organize a government and organize a country.

If you people tried real hard - and I mean really really really hard - you may be able to organize a lynching. That is, if you don't first all start screaming at each other about who to murder first

Life is short, there is a long weekend coming up, my wife is great. I don't need a bunch of pathetic marginal lunatics to accuse me of fraud and this that and the other.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 May 2002 11:36 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thanks - I am not only accused of fraud, I am accused of abject stupidity. I do that all the time when I commit fraud - last week, my wife and I went to the bank to negotiate something so of course I lied about our assets and signed my own name to the papers.

I most certainly do accuse you of incredible stupidity. See below for my expansion on this.

quote:
In my profile, I indicated I work as an Internet content provider. I think I understand a little tiny bit about e-mail and Internet accounts. Where I work, we have a few hundred thousand users, each with their own user name and password.

Anyone with any knowledge of the importance of securing one's password would NEVER fail to take one basic precaution: Never, under any circumstances, reuse the same password for multiple IDs on a BBS/web-board/MUD or for single IDs on many different systems.

quote:
The user names have to be unique but our system has no problem if different people have the same password. It makes no difference from a technical point of view. If people don't log into their accounts after a certain period, they are sent a series of e-mails askng them if they still want the account. If they don't respond, the user name is given up and is made available to other people. We don't f---ing care about your password - share it around if you want, it doesn't make a difference. IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Not from a technical standpoint; from a security standpoint it is an incredible weak spot. The only worse thing to do than let multiple people use the same password is to have people giving each other passwords through e-mail in plaintext.

quote:
Audra, you're in charge of this board, you probably know this technical stuff. It's totally basic. It's beginner stuff, man. Puh-leeze.

I find it highly ironic that you should be lecturing audra on this when you have failed to follow a basic security precaution.

quote:
Yeah, so you send an e-mail password written in numerical gobbledeegook and the recipient has to change it - or not, or adopt an existing password... Is that really that complicated? Is it really that strange? You know someone, you go to their house, they are bitching about Babble and you start talking about it. You say you have to check it out for yourself, you have to make up your own mind. They log in, show you the site - then you register... You're right there, why not use their e-mail? Jeez. Life is so simple - you guys really need conspiracies?

No, I don't.

All I need to do is to fit the facts into an alternate hypothesis than the one you have attempted to present.

The simple fact is, I would never under any circumstances use the same e-mail address as someone else when registering onto a web-board like this. I would punch in my own, be it web-based or ISP-based, and then check inbound messages. Since you're such an expert, perhaps you can explain to the rest of us how to obtain one's e-mail on an ISP that allows inbound POP3 mail requests with no restriction on the incoming IP address.

Second of all, I don't think anyone else would ever commit such an egregious error. You DO realize that if you set inbound private messages to be copied to the e-mail address you provide for babble, that all privmsgs to you go to that e-mail address, the one of your (alleged) friend?

I suppose you don't mind letting someone else see everything someone has to say to you in private.

Oh, I almost forgot... you DO realize that if you don't change that e-mail address and it really IS not your own, if that person ever wanted to be "you", all they would have to do is punch in that e-mail address when requesting a lost password?

quote:
I signed up myself and my wife for webreference.com (web design site) and for workopolis.com (job site). I chose two different user names and we use the same password. I subscribe to FreePint, an information industry newsletter. My wife signed up too - I told her to use my f---ing password. Who cares as long as the security system adopted by the provider and by the site is robust and the user names are unique? D'uh and double d'uh. The system won't allow two people with the same user name. Wooow. Wooow. Woooow. It is so ele-fucking-mentary, if you have the system. Since Audra administers Babble, she has to know this.

And you again admit you failed to take the simplest of security precautions and set up the two accounts with two different passwords.

Or, if you mean "use my password" as in "use my login-id and password", then that's also an unacceptable security risk. A user-id should never be used by more than one person and if it is used by more than one person there should either be absolutely no concern whatsoever for the security of the account (which should not be underestimated - what if someone used your workopolis.com account to, shall we say, create an unfavorable impression to potential employers by altering your online resume?) or there should be a high degree of trust among the people sharing that account.

And frankly, I don't think I trust anyone enough to just share any logins or passwords.

quote:
e) someone who goes about committing identity fraud

The appellation "identity fraud" is reserved for the stealing of someone else's real life identity for the purpose of malicious intent.

What you are actually accused of is sock-puppetting; that is, creating multiple IDs on the same message-board for the purposes of creating a cheerleading section.

Nothing wrong with that, in law, but it definitely looks silly.

----

In sum, for an "admin", you are either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid, or both.

As well, you seem to have hastily attempted to construct a story to "explain" yourself with absolutely no attempt to aim for any kind of consistency or even any kind of credibility whatsoever.

Do you really believe that none of us on this message-board has spent years, even decades, with computers and are well-acquainted with at least the software, if not also the hardware?

If you do, I strongly suggest you try constructing a better bullshit story next time.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 16 May 2002 11:58 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 17 May 2002 12:04 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
DrConway:

When I was a network supervisor I used to love users like you. At least I would have if I'd had any.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
meades
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 625

posted 17 May 2002 12:30 AM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I use the same password everywhere, I have to admit it makes it easier to remember! what's wrong with that? ...But I don't use it on babble since they gave me a perfectly good password. I had to write it in ink on the side of my monitor so that I'd remember, but it's still perfectly good. It's my memory that needs work- oy!...
From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 17 May 2002 12:39 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
meades wrote:
quote:
I use the same password everywhere, I have to admit it makes it easier to remember! what's wrong with that?

It means that if someone picks up on your password he can hack into every account you own. You should at least try and make it difficult for the bad guys. Make 'em work for their jollies.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 17 May 2002 01:03 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure that Michi and Michel are the same, although there are some similarities in their posturing. Remeber how Michi would always 'authorize' his arguments with anecdotal material such as references to his father experiences in the Luftwaffe, er, the Le Resistance? These served to give him moral authority, and substantiate his argument on any subject.

In fact Michel has done this a number of times by referencing his 'experiences' as journalists researcher, or more recently with this classic you don't know because you weren't there statement:

quote:
On the job, I once had an M-16 pushed into my belly. I once had a gun put to my temple and the trigger cocked. I was threatened at knife point. I was followed by gangs and threatened working on stories.

But there was something of an almost pedantic air to Michi that I don't get with Michel. Something in the style is different too, so this is hard to figure.

Perhaps, a more careful style analysis is waranted... dare I say an 'investigation?'

The password dilema is easy, Michi needs the password, so that he can also log on as Michel. Either that or this is one guy who is a pathological liar.

There was something about his first post that smacked of a guy being parachuted in to deal with the anti-semitism thing. Perhaps Michel is actually one of the panel of anonymous 'experts' on anti-semitism that Michi referenced in his 'investigation.'

Either way brothers and sisters, there is some really fucking crazy shit going on here at Babble.

As my grandad said at Bastogne: "Nuts!"


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 17 May 2002 01:06 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Damn!

quote:
It means that if someone picks up on your password he can hack into every account you own. You should at least try and make it difficult for the bad guys. Make 'em work for their jollies.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Arch Stanton ]


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 17 May 2002 01:08 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Real Detective Clouseau.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 17 May 2002 01:12 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This whole Mimichel bizniz is funny. Everyone's getting worked up about nothing.

I suppose the big deal is that Mimichel has been throwing around "anti-semite" aspersions, and has thus offended a lot of babblers.

Now, I'm no anti-semite, but...Mimi's a Belgian?

Q: What's French for Newfie?

A: Belge!


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 01:21 AM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is important to prevent less than serious contributors from multiplying themselves (splitting like unicell creatures), creating out of one individual a whole crowd, a debater, supporters, cheer-leaders etc..

Pointing out to a common IP is also important and different from divulging an IP number, which Audra never did and would never do.

Anyway, so I gather Michel is Mimichekele or is Mimichekele Michel ?

Busted, as DrConway put it


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 17 May 2002 01:27 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is Michi.

I just went to another thread and despite the use of a lot of expletives, which is the main difference, this guy also posts in French, without translation, another Michi Trait!

Two out of three!

So my guess is that it is Michi. Hi Michi, we missed you. Good to have you back.

Post away!


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 01:34 AM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This little intellectual self-destruct sequence discredits you as much as Ian Salim's stupid and ridiculous argument discredited him. I mean really, it doesn't even work well as rhetoric -- it makes it look like you're clutching at straws.


And pray tell why would that be?

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 17 May 2002 01:38 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think they are cloning.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 17 May 2002 01:39 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because you will not answer the quesion: "Why do you think Sharon insists on building more settlemets."
From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 01:54 AM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WHOA!!! These messages on Mimmici (whatever) are mindblowing. Im sitting here shaking my head in disbelief. Is this all we have to get worked up about???? You guys...wow...what detectives!!! what skill...you outed ...who exactly?? and why exactly???? And now I'm even posting on this YAWN...nite all!!
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 01:55 AM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Because you will not answer the quesion: "Why do you think Sharon insists on building more settlemets."
Ah a final question before I go to bed. GGINT.. How the hell do I know?????

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Lakesh ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 17 May 2002 01:57 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Time to go back to sleep, and not think about Sharon... or the settlements... ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz!
From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 17 May 2002 02:16 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
ras, I wish you could be just as diligent in viewing anti-semitism as you are in detecting homophobia in which you are very good and for which I applaud you (and share your concerns).

To be fair to whoever it was I was querying the other day, I wasn't convinced that they were homophobic, I merely suspected it. However, I did not issue a warning... because there was certainly a vaguely plausible counter-explanation.

Likewise, I may suspect that there are a couple of Jew-haters, Arab-haters, or African-American-hating Babblers, whether these people know it about themselves or not. But by and large I don't think those who criticize Israel are Jew haters, those who criticize affirmative action are Black-haters, those who criticize Palestinians are Arab-haters. I think some of them are blind to structural prejudice, and ignorant of how it is addressed... or whatever. And to that extent, they may be racist -- to the extent that they are fully shaped by, partake in, and do not challenge, a racist culture. But that's different from out and out bigotry or malicious, targeted hatred.

So the long and the short of it is, I may criticize Israel in the strongest terms, I may also criticize Arab countries in the strongest terms, I will criticize those who perpetuate and support injustice, and I do not think I should be bludgeoned with the accusation of bigotry used as a way of silencing inconvenient perspectives.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
peacepiper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2489

posted 17 May 2002 03:50 AM      Profile for peacepiper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This has really put me in a bad mood.

I really hope this witch hunt is over. Whether the person's guilty or not, you're (at least 8 of you) the definition of a lynch mob and acting like a bunch of assholes. Cause if he's innocent, he's innocent-- If guilty, you're attacking someone with a mental illness (think about it). Did that ever occur to you?

Like piranhas on a pogo stick hitchin a ride on the bandwagon.

I can't believe i'm losing sleep over this.


From: fd | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 17 May 2002 04:26 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 17 May 2002 10:16 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone with even a shred of common sense can tell that Mimi and Michel are not the same person. Of course they both use French -- they both have Montreal roots. But unless Michel is a master of literary ventriloquism, there is absolutely no similarity between the style or substance of their posts. Mimi was an anguished moralist, respectful, and a long-winded master of details. He repeatedly felt the need to apologize. He would NEVER use the word "D'uh." Michel is a fighter, blunt in his judgement and expression, and more interested in weighing the evidence produced by others, rather than offering fresh details of his own.

Of course, I could just be saying this because I am Mimi. And Michel. And Lakesh. Oh, and skdadl too -- since I admire the posts of all of these characters. According to the moderator, that means I must be those characters.

Well, with all due respect, Audra -- fuck you. As far as I'm concerned, you hijacked a perfectly worthwhile thread that you yourself started, on a good subject. You brought up completely irrelevant and confidential information about a poster, accused him of being a sock puppet, when it's quite clear that he is just a friend of Mimi's.

Many people on this board are friends with each other, though they don't feel the need to broadcast this information, and expect (rightly) that their arguments should be taken on their merits, rather than dismissed because of some irrelevant personal connection.

But since it seems to matter to you, and since it's the kind of thing that you seem to like to investigate, let me make myself clear. I don't know Mimi. I don't know Michel or Lakesh. I don't know Ian Salim. I am not working for a foreign government, or for any organization that pays me to "seed" right-wing ideas on leftist message boards. And since Riffraff might be interested, I am not a Jew, and have absolutely no family connection to Jews.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 May 2002 10:47 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I doubt mimi and Michel are the same person.
I do not recall mimi being such a self-serving cry baby.

Go back and read Michel's list of offenses. Poor guy. Never mind that he came here and diliberately set out to make enemies and not to influence people. He has been a ccuesd of being a racist. Well, from what I can remember, GGiNT, was big enough to apologize. Is he not big enough to accept it? And the in the meantime, he paints every critic of Israeli policy as an anti-semite.

He says he was accused of being a book burner. That is of course a lie. There was an off-hand joke made about his books that he himself had said he separated from his library based upon an accusation of anti-semitism against a well known author who also happens to be a critic of Israeli policy.

Should anyone question his opnions, being generous enough to call them that, he responds with a tirade and stream of insults.

I am sorry peacepiper you are losing sleep. But this is not a witch hunt. It is a bunch of people having fun with someone who is so determined to present multiple faces all claiming hurt and injustice aimed againt him while engaging in obvious tactics of baiting, trolling and ridicule.

Mimi? Michel? Who cares? Asshole.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 May 2002 10:55 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, with all due respect, Audra -- fuck you. As far as I'm concerned, you hijacked a perfectly worthwhile thread that you yourself started, on a good subject. You brought up completely irrelevant and confidential information about a poster, accused him of being a sock puppet, when it's quite clear that he is just a friend of Mimi's.


Such nice words.
As far as I can tell the thread was established, in a sort of humouress, funny, look at the attack of Noam Chomsky as an anti-semite. Because Noam argued that it is possible not to believe the holocaust occured and still not be anti-semitic. It was a worthwhile subject to help release some steam.
Don't you get a joke?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 11:19 AM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup wrote:

"And since Riffraff might be interested, I am not a Jew, and have absolutely no family connection to Jews."

Whazzup,

My comment was simply a lighthearted tease, just having fun. Actually, as a non anglophone, I always find the word "busted" funny.

Now, How and where did you get the idea that I may be interested in knowing who is Jew and who is not ?

My only interest, following this comment of yours -with my apologies to the rest of my fellow Babblers- IS TO SPIT ON YOUR FACE, and please consider it done.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 17 May 2002 11:29 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now, How and where did you get the idea that I may be interested in knowing who is Jew and who is not ?

Oh, I don't know, maybe here, where you offer your cogent analysis of Bob Rae's position on the middle east:

quote:
What is forgoten in this debate is that Bob Rae is believed to originate from a Jewish Family. Apparently his father, for the purpose of surmounting bigotry, had paraded as Christian. Bob Rae's spouse is Jewish.

Oh, no, Riffraff, don't worry -- it's NOT forgotten.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 17 May 2002 11:36 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He's obnoxious, Riffraff, with his "fuck you Audra," just as you are with your face-spitting. But he's got a point. I recall that comment, which did smack of traditional they-all-stick-together anti-Semitism. As some of us said at the time.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 11:46 AM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An what was the context of that ? Riffraff hunting for Jews and marking their homes with the Star of David ?

Did't fly another pro-Zionist tried to make an antisetie of me before you, threatened with a big organization, experts, one of them testified "on behalf of the federal governement" and what have you. Flop!! The fella left... to save face. Certainly wiser than you, further discrediting and making an ass of yourself.

I really have to look at the positive side: I find you entertaining


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 17 May 2002 11:55 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Did't fly another pro-Zionist tried to make an antisetie of me before you, threatened with a big organization, experts, one of them testified "on behalf of the federal governement" and what have you. Flop!! The fella left... to save face. Certainly wiser than you, further discrediting and making an ass of yourself.

I don't know whether this is a response to me or to Whazzup. But personal attacks are beside the point.

I wasn't making one, incidentally; I'm not calling you an anti-Semite, any more than I'd describe myself as a pro-Zionist. I'm only saying that comment could reasonably have been, and was, taken as sounding anti-Semitic.

I'm reluctant to label individuals, as opposed to ideas or remarks, racist and anti-Semitic. (This is not a distinction that usually survives what Slick Willy elsewhere called the "fog of war," or the fog of heated and aggressive argument). They're serious charges, not to be made lightly, and it takes a repeated pattern of such commentary before I'll consider it. Which pattern I haven't seen in your posts.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 May 2002 11:57 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I assume that incident was judging your past actions, not your future ones, right?

That's really interesting - you figure that any time someone figures you've crossed the line from now on, all you have to do is draw out this past incident from however many years ago and say, "See? They didn't think I was an anti-semite then, so it's impossible that anything I've done or said since then is anti-semitic!"

Poor logic, friend. Not only that, but implying that someone's Jewishness or links to Jews somehow makes their arguments less credible IS anti-semitic. No matter what some findings of a past incident (which, btw, you have only alluded to and have never explained fully) were.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 17 May 2002 12:15 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As if the hat some bigot wears makes some kind of difference.

Please remember that there are some people in this world that can be standing there with a mouth full of cookies and their hand in the jar, and still deny ever touching the cookies.

Something that did make me snicker a little is that on one hand there is all the talk about managing hundreds of thousands of email accounts.
And then the statment that passwords are handed around all the time.

Sure there are people who give others their password. (the technical insiders word for them is dipshit) The bottom line on any internet account is who ever has registered the account is left holding the bag. If they choose to reveal the password, so what? They are still responsible for that account no matter what someone else does with it.

In regards to this matter, those who get kicked from boards for acting like an ass often come back to continue having fun. Some are a little more open about it and get the idea that they are having fun. Then again there are some who just can't put that together and feel that no matter how many times they get kicked for acting like a dipshit they are in the right and if they deny any other claims to the contrary enough, others will believe them. I suggest that a few would even go to the point of creating a new account from a cafe and try to keep up the guise.

Bitching and complaining? Fuck you Audra? Come on!
Some of us might have been born at night but it wasn't lastnight. heh heh

So take this one to heart. Audra is paid to moderate the board here. Her judgement is accepted as reasonable enough to allow her to freely administer the rules and regs as she feels is neccessary. For any who feel that Audra is unfair there is a solution. Leave. There are thousands of boards on the Internet that will fit in with your idea of how a board should be run. You are welcome to them.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
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posted 17 May 2002 01:08 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'lance wrote:

"which did smack of traditional they-all-stick-together anti-Semitism. As some of us said at the time."

My view of Bob Rae is that in spite of his supposedly sophisticated intellect, many -known and unknown- examples show his tendancy to take positions merely on what I consider very simplistic grounds, on impulse, instinct, emotions.

-I had presented a situation to Bob Rae that needs his action. He minimized the concerns I have submitted and expressed his confidence in the head of the department in question on the basis that he/she is a friend of his. about three months later, the scandal blew up, his "friend" turfed. people harmed etc.. The facts seemed to be irrelevant to Mr Rae, his friendship with the head of the department apparently sufficed to assure him that what is being done is "right".

-Salman Rushdie came to Ontario. There is Mr Rae meeting and embracing the "free speech" hero, in the face of the Canadian Muslim community who condemns the Ayatollah for his far fetched "fatwa" and condemn Sulman Rushdie for engaging in a rhetoric that has hardly any literary merit but is full of disrespect to the Prophet of Islam and those who follow the faith. Meanwhile, a persecuted, vilified feminist from Bengladesh who came to Ontario at the same period was simply ignored. (Was it that Bob Rae chose to be in the middle of a circus of "Intolerant Islam" but avoids a forum where Islam is shown to be not only compatible with feminism, but basically pro-feminism" ?).

I certainly do not systematically apply stereotypical -or traditional- views on individuals.

But the notion of "they-all stick together" is not fundamentally wrong. Simply dismissing it is sometimes harmful. Sticking-together is still prevalent in our and other societies. Until we have ensured that the sticking together no longer exists we cannot banish the notion and shoot the messenger.

Three years ago, I believe, a judge in Ottawa issued a scathing ruling that clearly showed a stick-together mentality in case of a black person in the middle of an all white horde of persons.

In Ottawa, there has been two murders of Somali Canadians in the presence of many white Canadians. Silence ruled, police frustrated etc.. Who killed, who participated, who cheered, etc. have yet to come. Two dead people, police, Crown, journalists frustrated and fuming in the face of the "nobody saw anything".

Finally, sometime ago, I was watching a round-table on TV where a diverse group of theologians from the three western religions debating.

They agreed that theologico-socio-culturally speaking, while the three western religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam do share the core values of the religion of Abraham (Ibrahim), they tend each to emphasize one basic value:

-Judaism: Cohesiveness
-Christianity: Love and forgiveness
-Islam: Social justice

One of the experts I remember was in the panel (since I admire him) was Rabbi Ruben Bulka, from Ottawa.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Riffraff ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
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posted 17 May 2002 01:13 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'lance,

The latest post is addressed to you. Not the previous. I have not lost my marbles.. yet, I believe


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
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Babbler # 337

posted 17 May 2002 01:28 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The tyranny to which I speak:

http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.sfsu.0517w0


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 17 May 2002 01:28 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The latest post is addressed to you. Not the previous. I have not lost my marbles.. yet, I believe

Fair enough.

quote:
I certainly do not systematically apply stereotypical -or traditional- views on individuals.

But the notion of "they-all stick together" is not fundamentally wrong. Simply dismissing it is sometimes harmful. Sticking-together is still prevalent in our and other societies. Until we have ensured that the sticking together no longer exists we cannot banish the notion and shoot the messenger.


You don't help your case by insisting that this "sticking-together," at least if it's supposedly based on being Jewish, is somehow a significant factor when it comes to political stances like Bob Rae's view of Svend Robinson's actions, or to political decisions.

I haven't heard of the case in Ottawa. But it's hardly unknown for a group of whites, out of racism and indifference, to fail to cooperate with the police in solving crimes committed against blacks or immigrants -- particularly if the crimes were committed by their friends. It's happened before, though it grieves me if it continues to happen, particularly in this country.

It does not, I suggest, support the contention that Jews stick together out of some kind of tribal solidarity. It's been pointed out again and again on babble and elsewhere that there are many Jewish critics of Israeli policy, both in and outside of Israel. The huge peace demonstration recently in Tel Aviv is just one bit of evidence in support of this.

(Incidentally, whatever the literary merits of The Satanic Verses, if you believe it's "full of disrespect to the Prophet of Islam and those who follow the faith," then you almost certainly haven't read it).

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
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posted 17 May 2002 01:41 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of enemies, more on Chomsky:

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021464445346


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
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posted 17 May 2002 01:46 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have this English translation from an article from the Saudi Gazette. It's quite illuminating and helps illustrate my thesis that the whole Mid-East crisis is based upon Arab anti-semitism which does not allow them to accept the right of Israel to exist. This is from supposed moderate country Saudi Arabia:

Updated: Thursday, May 16, 2002
SD# 381 - Saudi Government Daily:


Dr. Mohammad T. Al Rasheed, a columnist for the Saudi government English daily The Saudi Gazette, responded to President Bush's demand that Arab leaders cease calling suicide bombers "martyrs." In an article titled "God Bless Our Martyrs," Dr. Al-Rasheed criticized the U.S. The following are excerpts from the column:


"The 'Dudn't' President Has Overstepped His Mark"


"Yes, those being mowed down in Palestine are MARTYRES [sic] to their cause, their honor, their dignity, their land, and their religion – the morons in Washington notwithstanding. We have had enough of double-dealing, double standards, double talk, and double acts on a lousy stage. The 'dudn't' President has overstepped his mark: he has given the green light for a massacre to commence conducted by the most brutal criminal this side of Caligula."


"A few weeks ago a couple in San Francisco were found guilty on behalf of their two dogs that mauled a neighbor to death. The same law is applicable to Bush and Sharon: the dog and its keeper. We do not need a Cicero to pontificate before a court for us to get a verdict. The issue is clear. We also cannot enter into high legal parlance or into philosophical argumentations. The dog and its keeper are not versed in this sort of dialogue. Nevertheless, let us try and simplify it enough for the keeper to understand why the world is not against dogs per se, but against his dog in particular..."


"The Americans used to say that they do not have the power to curb or influence Israeli decisions, but every time they tell the Israelis to do something, the Israelis do it. How are we to square this circle? The world watches in horror, and we have Europeans now bellowing at America to do the basic decent things in life. The Europeans are not exactly Arabophiles, but they retain a semblance of their humanity yet..."


"...Fourteen hundred years ago, the second Khalif, Omar, entered Jerusalem and was invited by its archbishop to pray in [the] Nativity Church. He refused; not because he did not think it suitable, but because, as he put it, 'Muslims will want to build a mosque on the spot.' Sure enough, he prayed on an adjoining piece of land, where we now have Masjid Omar, the Mosque of Omar. That too was bombed and desecrated by the modern Hun."


"The progress of humanity seems far from inching its way to better human nature. Or is it simpler: we lack education about others, and an ingrained sense of respect for others and, more tragically, ourselves."


"A Billion of Muslims Are Being Turned into Raging Volcanoes"


"A billion of Muslims are being turned into raging volcanoes by this disrespect: Docile bookworms, redundant bureaucrats, pregnant women usually preoccupied with their pains, doctors busy cutting up humanity for repair work, and countless others usually preoccupied with their lives, are now seething. Is this sanity on the part of policy-makers ruling the world? Caligula's madness never really reached outside Rome itself for obvious reasons. Now CNN can deliver its warped audio-visual accounts to the world."


"Better still, others have learned the trick of the trade. Ironically enough, Caligula wandered too far in Palestine where angels feared to tread before him. He wanted the Jews to worship him in their temple..., the rest is history as they say. Can the 'dudn't' man be brought to read some of this history? Condowhatever Rice should bring some of those wonderful books published by Stanford for him to read. On a personal note, I am ashamed now to say that I went to the same university."


"Let us say it once and for all: We have nothing against Jews. This is a fact. We have nothing against any people for what they believe or how they believe. Those of us who do are interpreting Muslim scriptures as American fundamentalists are interpreting Christian scriptures. It is hard to believe the Pope, of the Vatican as an institution, endorses Jerry Falwell – just to give one example. But, like the French during Nazi occupation, the Russians against the French occupation, the Americans against the British occupation, we take issue with the occupier. Hence our sense of martyrdom."


President Bush Should Read Arab History


"We also would wonder these days about our own sense of comprehension when we hear Bush telling the world that Arafat 'betrayed his people.' Who are you to issue such a judgment Mr. President? Who gave you the right to speak for the Palestinians, or any other people who are not Americans? They elected him, they support him, and now they are dying for him. That, I should think, is more than most of your people are willing to do for you. Your father, in his heyday, asked your nation to read his lips. Since reading is a family tradition with you, could we ask you to simply read our history before trying to rule over us?"


"You [The U.S.] Will Vanish, But We Will Remain"


"In case you do not have the time or stamina, let me tell you this: we are as old as the stone that Jesus walked on, pure as the water Muhammad was given to wash for prayer from, and severe as the laws Moses brought down from the Mount. You will vanish, but we will remain… the world will advance to oblivion, but our date palms and our olive trees will survive your nuclear bombs. And, somehow, something of us will remain. You have it written, not in Holy Scripture, but on the green back you so adore, especially on Christmas Eve: In God We Trust."(1)


Endnote:


(1) The Saudi Gazette, April 8, 2002.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
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posted 17 May 2002 01:51 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To the I don't have anything against the Jews comments in the last article, this one appeared in the official Egyptian newspaper:

The following are excerpts from an article by Fatma Abdallah Mahmoud titled "Accursed Forever and Ever," which recently appeared in the Egyptian government daily Al-Akhbar:

"They are accursed in heaven and on earth. They are accursed from the day the human race was created and from the day their mothers bore them. They are accursed also because they murdered the Prophets. They murdered the Prophet John the Baptist and served up his head on a golden platter to the singer and dancer Salome. Allah also cursed them with a thousand curses when they argued with and resisted his words of truth, deceived the Prophet Moses, and worshiped the golden calf that they created with their own hands!!"

"These accursed ones are a catastrophe for the human race. They are the virus of the generation, doomed to a life of humiliation and wretchedness until Judgement Day. They are also accursed because they repeatedly tried to murder the Prophet Muhammad. They threw a stone at him, but missed. Another time, they tried to mix poison in his food, but providence saved him from their treachery and their crimes. Allah cursed them when they carried out the criminal massacre of the peaceful Palestinians in Sabra and Shatilla."

"They are accursed, they, their fathers, and their forefathers… until Judgment Day, because they burst into Al-Aqsa Mosque with their defiled, filthy feet and violated its sanctity."

"Finally, they are accursed, fundamentally, because they are the plague of the generation and the bacterium of all time. Their history always was and always will be stained with treachery, falseness, and lying. Historical documents prove it."

"Thus, the Jews are accursed - the Jews of our time, those who preceded them and those who will come after them, if any Jews come after them."

"With regard to the fraud of the Holocaust… Many French studies have proven that this is no more than a fabrication, a lie, and a fraud!! That is, it is a 'scenario' the plot of which was carefully tailored, using several faked photos completely unconnected to the truth. Yes, it is a film, no more and no less. Hitler himself, whom they accuse of Nazism, is in my eyes no more than a modest 'pupil' in the world of murder and bloodshed. He is completely innocent of the charge of frying them in the hell of his false Holocaust!!"

"The entire matter, as many French and British scientists and researchers have proven, is nothing more than a huge Israeli plot aimed at extorting the German government in particular and the European countries in general. But I, personally and in light of this imaginary tale, complain to Hitler, even saying to him from the bottom of my heart, 'If only you had done it, brother, if only it had really happened, so that the world could sigh in relief [without] their evil and sin.'"

"Since their birth, the Jews [have amassed] hatred and hostility towards Islam and the Muslims. They have always laid traps for the Muslims, woven conspiracies and crimes against them, and been biased in favor of their enemies and occupiers…"

"They always try to warp and distort everything fair and beautiful!! Basically, they are a model of moral ugliness, debasement, and degradation. If only Allah would curse them more and more, to the end of all generations. Amen." [1]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Al-Akhbar (Egypt), April 29, 2002.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
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posted 17 May 2002 01:53 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on what informs the Arab world and fuels the extremism (even amongst some Arab Christians):

Attacks on Christians in the West
Father Manuel Musalam, head of the Latin Church in Gaza, told Palestinian Authority television, "Had we lived in the days when the Church was a [real] Church that controls the world - a Crusader war crueler than the Crusader wars of the past would have been waged [against Israel]… Where is Christianity?!… We called upon them: 'Save Jesus.' But it appears that the Christians [in the West] have no connection to us… We told the Christians in the West: In Afghanistan, you moved heaven and earth to protect the Buddha statue; in your belief and ours, Bethlehem and the Church of the Nativity are much greater than a Buddha statue…"

"Therefore I, the Christian Palestinian, say in all rage and daring to the Christians of the world: You are loathsome! You are contemptible! You are cowards! – because you cannot carry the message of Jesus in your hearts. The message of Jesus is one of love, sacrifice, mercy, life, and manhood, and these Christians of the world have no mercy, no compassion, no manliness, no sacrifice. I do not mean only towards us, but even towards the Jews, as not only do the Jews kill us – we also kill them, because we are in a war of self-defense…"

"We – and I say this brutally, because he who remains silent is Satan – are facing the filthy Christians of the West… We hear that the American Congress is demanding that Bush unleash Israel to slaughter the Palestinians. What kind of Christian is this?! This is not Christianity; it is not even paganism. This is Christianity of the jungle. Our New Testament is not their New Testament, our Jesus is not their Jesus, our [Church of the] Nativity is not their [Church of the] Nativity, and our peace is not their peace. I will say still more: Our God is not their God…"[1]

Father Musalam voiced similar sentiments at a meeting between heads of church in Gaza City and a delegation of Muslim clerics from the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Religious Endowments:

"The Western Christian, without love, tolerance, truth, and justice in his heart, must cast away his New Testament. The New Testament and Christianity are innocent of that [Western Christian]. If I were the head of the church where the American president Bush worships, and he came to pray, I would bar him from entering, because he has renounced the church's moral standards."[2]

During the same meeting, Bishop Alex, head of the Roman Orthodox Bishopric of Gaza, said, "Real Christianity means love and harmony, and it exists only in Palestine and the Holy Land. In contrast, Western Christianity is false. Anyone who claims he is a Christian but has no love or tolerance in his heart is no Christian."[3]

Condemnations of Protestantism and the American political leadership were voiced by the Egyptian Coptic Church as well, which typically enjoys good relations with the West via the Coptic communities in the U.S., Canada, and Australia. In an article titled "Oh Mr. Bush, Are You Christian or Crusader?" Coptic priest Marcus 'Aziz Khalil wrote:

"Israel knows how to mislead the leaders of many countries, deceiving them that [to believe] they have common interests with it… It managed to drug the leaders of those Christian countries – especially those who belong to no religion and do not know the road to Heaven, or who take religion's name and image but are totally distanced from its essence. They are manipulated by Israel, like marionettes, to destroy their religion. [Israel] has also managed to brainwash some whom it discovered to be highly susceptible because of their surly nature. Israel planted among them the spirit of hatred and rage towards the Arabs and Muslims – as it did to George Bush Sr., who attacked Iraq, and behold, it continues on its path with George Bush Jr., who attacked Afghanistan..."

"If only God would intervene to defend the world from these enemies of peace. Although they swathe themselves in sheep's clothing, they are wolves seeking to kill the flock… We Christians of the East, who in the past refused to stand by the Crusaders and stood by our Muslim brethren, are also opposed to the negative deeds of the Western governments biased in favor of Israel despite its arrogance and even though it damages the holy sites. We say to Mr. Bush: During your term, Jesus' name is disgraced by the attacks on the holy places. Are you a Christian, Mr. Bush? I doubt it. Perhaps you are a Crusader. God alone knows."[4]

Egyptian Shura Council member Dr. Nabil Luka Babawi, an expert in criminal law and a Copt, attacked President Bush in an article titled "Judas Is Back": "Today, 2,000 years since the Judas affair, the same scenario repeats itself, and the Christian rulers betray Jesus. These rulers have become the Judas of our time. They have sold out the Messiah for their own private interests, and so as not to anger the Zionist lobby in America… Perhaps the Church of the Nativity will be destroyed and turn into rubble. Bush, the head of the Christian rulers, will be responsible for what happens to it. He is proving to be the Judas of our time, for he has sold out the Messiah for the American Jewish vote..."[5]

Dr. Babawi published another article in the Egyptian government daily Al-Ahram slamming his fellow Copts living in the West for their failure to support the Palestinians: "Today the Jews shell the Church of the Nativity with artillery, and the Copts in the diaspora do not pressure members of the American Congress with a demand to stop the attack on the Church of the Nativity and on Al-Aqsa Mosque… Why are the American Copts and Muslims not demonstrating to condemn the behavior of the madman Sharon, who began to behave like a madman after he was hit in 1948 in a sensitive place of his body by a bullet, leaving him with one testicle only [sic]. This has affected him psychologically, and he has become a crazy psychopath using power to hide his weak point…"[6]

Elias 'Awwad, head of the Palestinian Roman Orthodox Church, said, "The Zionist movement controls European and American public opinion… For this reason, we witness a weakness in the defense of the Christian holy sites on the part of America and the European countries... These people [Western Christians] deal first of all with their interests, not their religion… In my view, they are not Christians, because they do not act according to the precepts of the New Testament…"[7]

The Bishop of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, George Saliba, stated the following regarding Christian leaders in the West: "Unfortunately, in the West today – Europe and America – all these [Christian leaders] are not Jews, but are led by the Jews. This religion [Judaism] is the enemy of God, the enemy of people, and the enemy of Christianity… There must be an awakening among the rulers of these countries, so that they return to punishing Zionism for its evil deeds towards all people. I hope it will be soon…"

"Jesus once said to the Jews: 'You are the sons of Satan, and you do the will of your father Satan.' They answered: 'No, we are not the sons of Satan, we are the sons of Abraham.' He replied to them: 'Had you been the sons of Abraham you would be acting [in accordance with] the acts and precepts of Abraham. Therefore you are the sons of Satan…'"[8]

The Jews Throughout the Generations
Father Manuel Musalam compared the armed Palestinians in the Church of the Nativity to Jesus on the cross: "…We kneel before the Palestinian in the besieged Church [of the Nativity]. He hungers, but he is steadfast; he thirsts, but he is steadfast. These words were not born in a vacuum. The one who said 'I am hungry' when he was on the cross was our Lord Jesus himself… Our Palestinian people in Bethlehem died like a crucified martyr, on the rock guarded by the Israeli soldiers armed from head to foot who have no compassion, love, life, or tolerance…"

"The Jew has a principle from which we suffer and which he tries to impose on people: the principle of the 'gentiles.' To him, the gentile is a slave. They [the Jews] give the [Palestinians] working in Israel only a piece of bread, and tell them: 'This piece of bread that you eat is taken from our children, and we give it to you so you will live not as free men on your land, but as a proletariat and slaves in Israel, to serve us…' The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are based on this principle, and anyone who reads the Protocols feels that we are in this period with the Jews …"

"The Church, the Pope, the Christians, and the New Testament clearly state that, according to Christian belief, the ones who killed Jesus are the Jews, and there is no way to deny or renounce this… The Jews are the ones who killed Jesus; after him, [they killed] the Christians, and after them, the Muslims. Now they are again killing both the Muslims and the Christians. Throughout history, we have seen that the Jews persecuted the Christians at the beginning of the Church, and now they are again persecuting the Church, and Islam…"

"As is known throughout the world, even in our time, they always accuse the Christians… The case of Pope Pius XII is bad enough. They accused him of terrible things… They attack the Church because the Pope was not as strict as they wanted in protecting the Jews from Nazism – while the Jews found shelter only in the Church and with Christian families…"[9]

In a letter to the editor of the Egyptian Coptic weekly Watani, Egyptian Coptic clergyman John Jirjis wrote, "I do not wonder at the deeds of the leaders of the Israeli people, as they are the followers of Herod the tyrant who ordered all the two-year-old boys of Bethlehem murdered so as to kill Jesus, but failed!! They are the followers of the chief priests, who saw Jesus and his miracles and heard his precepts, yet accused him of heresy and called for his crucifixion! They are those who forced [Pontius] Pilate to crucify Jesus… although Pilate conceded that Jesus did not deserve crucifixion. They still live with their dark and cruel hearts, rejecting all the prophecies of their prophets. The sight of their bloodstained hands is not unfamiliar to the human race!!"[10]

The Coptic priest Marcus 'Aziz Khalil wrote, "From the human point of view, the existence of the State of Israel is an historic sin. It is not sufficient to deem this sin the crime of the generation; it is one of the unforgivable sins, and no means of purification will help them… The belief on which the Jews have based their state is null and void, but they have taught their sons from infancy that it is the proper belief…"[11]

The Hizbullah television station Al-Manar gave its viewers an exclusive broadcast of a lecture on "Christianity's View of the Jews" by the Bishop of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, George Saliba, at an Islamic institute for religious studies. He said: "…As is known, the Jews think that only they are human. Only they are the sons of Adam. As far as they are concerned, all the [other] peoples have the status of beasts. Gentiles. This contradicts the message of God in the world… Do you know what they did to the prophet Isaiah?… They took him and sawed him with a wood saw, from head to foot, while he was still alive. They cut him in half…"[12]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Palestine Television (Palestinian Authority), April 22, 2002.

[2] Al-Quds (Palestinian Authority), April 24, 2002.

[3] Al-Quds (Palestinian Authority), April 24, 2002.

[4] Al-Maydan (Egypt), April 22, 2002, as cited in Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), April 24, 2002.

[5] Cited in Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), April 29, 2002.

[6] Al-Ahram (Egypt), April 25, 2002.

[7] Palestine Television (Palestinian Authority), April 26, 2002.

[8] Al-Manar Television (Lebanon-Hizbullah), April 24, 2002.

[9] Palestine Television (Palestinian Authority), April 22, 2002.

[10] Watani (Egypt), April 21, 2002, as cited in Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), April 23, 2002.

[11] Al-Maydan (Egypt), April 22, 2002, as cited in Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), April 24, 2002.

[12] Al-Manar Television (Lebanon-Hizbullah), April 24, 2002.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 337

posted 17 May 2002 01:54 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One last post of what the Palestinian Authority stands for:

The following are excerpts from a Friday sermon delivered by Palestinian Authority Imam Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi[1] at the Sheikh 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City, broadcast live on April 12, 2002 by Palestinian Authority television:

"…Oh, beloved of Allah. [In the Friday sermon] two weeks ago, I bore in your name a blessing of love to the crowns upon our heads, [that is] to the Arab and Muslim rulers. Among other things, I said: 'Oh crowns upon our heads: If Sharon spat in your faces, what would you do?' Today I apologize for these words, because Sharon has not only spat on the heads of the nation, but also trampled us underfoot."

"We are convinced of the [future] victory of Allah; we believe that one of these days, we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, enter Haifa as conquerors, enter Ramle and Lod as conquerors, the [villages of] Hirbiya and Dir Jerjis and all of Palestine as conquerors, as Allah has decreed… 'They will enter Al-Aqsa Mosque as they have entered it the first time…'"

"Anyone who does not attain martyrdom in these days should wake in the middle of the night and say: 'My God, why have you deprived me of martyrdom for your sake? For the martyr lives next to Allah'…"

"Our enemies suffer now more than we do. Why? Because we are convinced that our dead go to Paradise, while the dead of the Jews go to Hell, to a cruel fate. So we stand firm and steadfast, in obedience to Allah…"

"The Jews await the false Jewish messiah, while we await, with Allah's help… the Mahdi and Jesus, peace be upon him. Jesus's pure hands will murder the false Jewish messiah. Where? In the city of Lod, in Palestine. Palestine will be, as it was in the past, a graveyard for the invaders – just as it was a graveyard for the Tatars and to the Crusader invaders, [and for the invaders] of the old and new colonialism…"

"A reliable Hadith [tradition] says: 'The Jews will fight you, but you will be set to rule over them.' What could be more beautiful than this tradition? 'The Jews will fight you' – that is, the Jews have begun to fight us. 'You will be set to rule over them' – Who will set the Muslim to rule over the Jew? Allah… Until the Jew hides behind the rock and the tree."

"But the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, a Jew hides behind me, come and kill him.' Except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews."

"We believe in this Hadith. We are convinced also that this Hadith heralds the spread of Islam and its rule over all the land…"

"Oh beloved, look to the East of the earth, find Japan and the ocean; look to the West of the earth, find [some] country and the ocean. Be assured that these will be owned by the Muslim nation, as the Hadith says… 'from the ocean to the ocean'…"

"Oh Allah, accept our martyrs in the highest heavens…"
"Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day…"
"Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters…"
"Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land…"
"Oh Allah, forgive our sins…"[2]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi is a Palestinian Authority employee.

[2] Palestine Television (Palestinian Authority), April 12, 2002.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 01:54 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'lance,

Not the book that I claim has no literary merit. The passages that were perceived as offensive.

Again, 'lance, I do not systematically apply stereotypical or traditional views on individuals. But the fact is that sticking-together does exist. A community's cohesiveness may be more accentuated within a community than another.

Christians in Sudan have been for a while in a struggle with successive Muslim administrations.
How many Christians around the world are contributing to their cause ? Note, I am not saying they should or should not.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 02:02 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ian,

Please spare me the propaganda that is used by the oppressive dictatorships of the middle east to fuel hatred and divert their peoples' attention to external "enemies". Classic. We know it.

Of course anyone can dig out some trash from somewhere. Does that make for a good argument ? No.

Please bring some facts, bring opinions of impartial observers, bring some views of credible sources.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 337

posted 17 May 2002 02:05 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The "trash" that you speak of is what the Arab street takes as gospel which symbolizes why peace is not possible. The demonization of Jews and Israel to deflect internal issues within the Arab state also serves to prevent those Arab states from reconciling themselves to the existence of Israel. This cannot be sloughed off by those who truly desire peace in the Middle East. This "trash" is also what drives groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizbollah that do not seek peace with Israel, only Israel's destruction. ONe cannot underestimate the impact this has on Middle East discourse.
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 02:15 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ian,

So I gather Israel is occupying and grabbing Palestinians' land in order to clean the mouthes of Arabs in the street. Fair enough !


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ian Salim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 337

posted 17 May 2002 02:24 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is occupying land in the West Bank and Gaza until a negotiated peace settlement is reached which will see all states in the region living safely and peacefully within recognized borders. Last I saw, the only country violating other's sovereignty was Lebanon bombing Israel.
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 02:27 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ian,

Oh Please !! Israel and its might. Israel and the unconditional support it has from the only superpower in the world, is threatened by what the Arab populace think or say (if true).

Listen Ian, sorry but I have no time for your "here, read what Arabs in the street say, isn't Israel justified in its occupation, expansionism, oppression and whatever it feels like doing?"


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 May 2002 02:31 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ian, please, if I posted hateful words from Jewish hate organizations, such as Kahane, would it help matters? I do not think so.

To say there are Palestinians who hate Jews is to say the obvious. In Northern Ireland they are all christians yet they can still manage to hate each other and say similar harmful things.

The issue is not Palestinian or Arab hatred of Jews. The issue is not Jewish hate of Palestinians or Arabs. The issue is hate. Period.

Perhaps we should deal with that.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 02:56 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ian, please, if I posted hateful words from Jewish hate organizations, such as Kahane, would it help matters? I do not think so.
quote:
The following are excerpts from a Friday sermon delivered by Palestinian Authority Imam Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi[1] at the Sheikh 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City, broadcast live on April 12, 2002 by Palestinian Authority television:
Are you comparing Imam Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, one of the most followed and respected Islamic leaders in all of the PA not to mention much of the entire Middle East, to the racist Kahane?

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 May 2002 03:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given that I know nothing of the Imam, I suppose I am not.

But certainly, Lakesh, you can see that Ian is attempting to use a broad brush to paint all Palestinians as extremists and hateful.

Do you agree with this method?

My point, is that I could take quotes from Jewish organizations to paint a similar portrait. I agree such a task would be wrong headed, only fuel existing hatreds, and not be representative of majority Jewish thought.

So why do it?

Why does Ian persist in doing it?

My guess, and I can't read his mind, is that he is attempting to portray Palestinians as hate mongers committed to the destruction of Israel. This does not pave a path to understanding and eventual peace anymore than if another posted similar comments attributed to Israelis that are as equally hateful and inciteful.

So again, I ask, why do it? And, again, do you agree with this method?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 03:07 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Are you comparing Imam Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, one of the most followed and respected Islamic leaders in all of the PA not to mention much of the entire Middle East, to the racist Kahane? "

Lakesh, Lakesh, Lakesh.

I did some time ago post "Zionist quotes", showing hatred, venon, bloodthirst, out of the mouth of -among others- Ariel Sharon.

ANd you think that Kahane was not respected by a large number of Israelis, that he had no followers, admirers etc..

No, Lakesh, Palestinians do not have monopoly on hatred.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 03:14 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My point, is that I could take quotes from Jewish organizations to paint a similar portrait. I agree such a task would be wrong headed, only fuel existing hatreds, and not be representative of majority Jewish thought.


If you can find a "mainstream Jewish organization" that has publicly made such ugly hateful statements, please show us. It too should be exposed

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 03:18 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I did some time ago post "Zionist quotes", showing hatred, venon, bloodthirst, out of the mouth of -among others- Ariel Sharon.


Riff, are these recent (meaning within the last year as is the quote from the Imam)statements and are they made by a mainstream Jewish leader like the Imam?

Did Kahane have his followers in Israel? Of course. But Israel vilified Kahane to a point of excluding him from the Knesset and charging him and his followers with hate crimes.Has the Imam been so dealt with by the PA?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 17 May 2002 03:39 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lakesh,

Kahane was dealt with, much less because of his views and rhetoric, but through political machinations that saw him a threatening force to like-minded but subtile elements of Israeli politico.

Actually, innocent victims of Sharon's hatred are by far more numerous (Sabra and Shatila, for one event) compared to Kahane's. While the latter does not keep his mouth shut when "advisable", the former is more astucious. The goal is the same, the hatred is the same. One could get way with it (and without exposing Zionism's real pursuits) and the other was more of a liability.

As the arab proverb goes, cats do not hunt mice by benevolence (like to a house's owner)

Nor did Israel ban Kahane by love for Palestinians


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 03:44 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Lakesh,
Kahane was dealt with, much less because of his views and rhetoric, but through political machinations that saw him a threatening force to like-minded but subtile elements of Israeli politico.

Actually, innocent victims of Sharon's hatred are by far more numerous (Sabra and Shatila, for one event) compared to Kahane's. While the latter does not keep his mouth shut when "advisable", the former is more astucious. The goal is the same, the hatred is the same. One could get way with it (and without exposing Zionism's real pursuits) and the other was more of a liability.

As the arab proverb goes, cats do not hunt mice by benevolence (like to a house's owner)

Nor did Israel ban Kahane by love for Palestinians


Thanks for what amounts to your opinion but the facts and the charges that were lodged against Kahane speak for themselves.

Now I wonder, if you please (no pressure here) would you answer my original question? Thanks Riff (old Jewish proverb, you can get more birds with honey than with vinegar...are you listening Doc? ...lol)

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Lakesh ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 17 May 2002 03:45 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Far be it from me to interrupt this highly productive colloquy. But I'll make one observation before abstaining indefinitely from any discussion of Israel or Palestine on babble:

You guys are a perfect example of the extension of Gresham's law to Internet discussion boards: bad posts drive out good.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 03:49 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You guys are a perfect example of the extension of Gresham's law to Internet discussion boards: bad posts drive out good.


And who is the arbiter of what is a "good" post? Is there a special board of referees we can go to ensuring that our posts meet with your approval? I really want to be cognizant from now on as to what I can post so as not to drive better posters away

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 May 2002 04:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lakesh, you are persistent in demanding that others answewr your questions while evading those posed to you. So I will repeat:


Do you agree with Ian's method of posting comments to present Palestinians as hateful as a useful method of debate?

And as for mainstream Israeli opinion, how is this:

quote:
You’ve probably never heard the term. Until recently, it was never discussed in polite Israeli society. It means simply “Arabs get out” and only marginal extremists dared advocate it in public until now, reports 60 Minutes II correspondent Bob Simon.

quote:
And, Ze’evi’s son, Palmach, has picked up his father’s mantle: “We believe that two nations cannot share the same piece of land,” says Palmach Ze’evi. “It doesn’t work anywhere in the world. It doesn’t work here. If two nations cannot share this land, it is for the Jews, for the Israelis, to stay in the land of Israel.”

quote:
Ze’evi, an ex-general, headed a tiny right wing party that openly called for the transfer of Palestinians out the West Bank and Gaza. Throughout Ze’evi’s career, his transfer party was on the fringes, but, just months after his death, his idea has taken on new life.

quote:
According to a poll last month conducted by a leading Israeli institute, 46 percent of Israeli Jews now agree.

Src: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/03/60II/main505292.shtml

So 46% of Israeli's agree with the policy of transfer. A policy of driving Palestinians out of the West Bank and Israel proper.

Is this not the equivalent of driving Israel into the sea?

And now that we know this does it help? Would more hateful comments be better?

Again, I ask, and maybe this time you will reply, does posting hateful comments useful to this debate?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 17 May 2002 04:23 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ARAB BIASED MEDIA!

I can bet you a million bucks someone will posit exactly the above as the rationale for ignoring an article in mainstream North American media about some uncomfortable facts of Israeli politics.

Never mind that the media has been staunchly pro-Israeli for 20 years plus and has only recently been shifting to a more nuanced stance.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 17 May 2002 06:16 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And as for mainstream Israeli opinion, how is this:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You’ve probably never heard the term. Until recently, it was never discussed in polite Israeli society. It means simply “Arabs get out” and only marginal extremists dared advocate it in public until now, reports 60 Minutes II correspondent Bob Simon.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, Ze’evi’s son, Palmach, has picked up his father’s mantle: “We believe that two nations cannot share the same piece of land,” says Palmach Ze’evi. “It doesn’t work anywhere in the world. It doesn’t work here. If two nations cannot share this land, it is for the Jews, for the Israelis, to stay in the land of Israel.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ze’evi, an ex-general, headed a tiny right wing party that openly called for the transfer of Palestinians out the West Bank and Gaza. Throughout Ze’evi’s career, his transfer party was on the fringes, but, just months after his death, his idea has taken on new life.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to a poll last month conducted by a leading Israeli institute, 46 percent of Israeli Jews now agree.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Src: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/03/60II/main505292.shtml

So 46% of Israeli's agree with the policy of transfer. A policy of driving Palestinians out of the West Bank and Israel proper.

Is this not the equivalent of driving Israel into the sea?

And now that we know this does it help? Would more hateful comments be better?

Again, I ask, and maybe this time you will reply, does posting hateful comments useful to this debate?


These are comments that I totally and categorically reject as do the majority of Jews and Israelis world wide.

As objectionable as they are they do not come close to the vitriolic hate of the Imam who is the "moral" voice of the PA.

Are these statements helpful? Well while I am uncomfortable with them , it helps in giving us an indication as to where things are at..as ugly and as bleak as they are we cannot close our eyes to those Isarelis and Palestinians who feel such emnity towards each other.

BTW, I respect the manner in which you post and confront me and others. Perhaps Dr. Conway can take a few lessons from you.

BTW Wing I never DEMAND, I ask. Big difference.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Lakesh ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 17 May 2002 07:12 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, Lakesh, Palestinians do not have monopoly on hatred.

Thanks Rif, nothing need more be said.

And As I can't seem to get an answer from Lakesh on this question, I will ask it again: Ian, Why do you think that Ariel Sharon insists on building new settlments in the WB, and how do you think building new settlements forwards the 'peace process?'


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
M.Déon
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2663

posted 18 May 2002 10:45 AM      Profile for M.Déon        Edit/Delete Post
I hesitated for a while before coming on board.

I am Acadian. If you know Acadians, you know we have the reputation of being patient, we try to get along, we take our time before speaking our piece and then we let others have their say.

I found the treatment of Mr. Sapcaru quite disturbing.It did feel like a lynch mob.

If you ask Acadians if they belive the lynch mob or the lynchee, most of us will believe the lynchee

I don`t think Sapcaru and Mimichekele are the same person at all.

I have 4 accounts on workopolis, 2 in English and 2 in French. I use the same password for all 4. I asked the customer service represetnative if this was OK and her answer was yes. I am not a technician but she explained that user names have to be unique, that is how security is protected. She also explaind somehting about dynamicaly assigned IP addresses. I am not a techie but Sapcaru`s explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have also used computers at friends`houses and I am typing now on at my sister`s house (I am using my password but i have used her password for other accounts in the past - this is not financial informaiton, just a discussion board). Sapcaru`s explanation makes sense to this non-techie Acadian boy.

Sapcaru explained he had been a reporter or a news resercher. He was attacked by someone for that. He mentioned a CBC ethics manual being very thick and he mentioned that his bosses expected him to know it and be able to defend editorial decisions based on it. I went to school with someone who worked at Radio-CAnada in Moncton. The ethics guide is a few hundred pages thick - it is not for public sale. He also had to attend seesions where bosses would analyze weakness in TV and radio coverage and ask how reporters justifieed why certain reports were done the way they were. These sessions were not public, they are internal training and criticisj sessions. Only someone who has worked there could know about how thick the ethics manual is and about what bosses at CBC and RAdio-Canada ask their employees. Makes perfect sense to this Acadian boy. Given the choice between believing the lynch mob or the lynchee, Sapcaru makes sense to me. I believe the lynchee

If Sapcaru really were a puppet, I think it would make sense that Mimichekele and Sapcaru and others all be on Babble at the same time to create the illusion of strength. Mimichekele is no longer on Babble and was not while Sapcaru was on. To me, this means the one is not the puppet of the other. Makes sense to this Acadian boy.

What I saw on Babble was very deplorable. I think Mr. Sapcaru was treated abusively and with a lot of cruelty and hatred in a constant and relentless way, from even before anyone accused him in a most immoral way of impersonation.

I have to add: I am not Jewish, I don't have Jewish ancestors or Jewish family membrs as far as I know, I don't live in a Jewsih neighbourhood, I never knew Jewish people bfore leaving New Brunswick, and I don't think I really know that many Jewish people now. The fact that I feel the necessity of stating this is an indication of everything that is wrong with Babble and of how far the moral level here has degenerated due to the actions of the lynch mob. This is 2002, it is sickening that I feel I have to deny being Jewish because of fear my one and only contribution here will not be taken seriously. I feel dirty and I want to shower.

There was a line that Mr Sapcaru and Mimichekele are the same because they both used a quote in French. I am Acadian - this is Canada, why not quote French. Makes sense to me. If I recall, the controversy was about what some French people had written in French in France about what Chonsky said about what another Frenchman had written in French in France. Makes senses to this Acadian boy. The logic is: They both quoted French, therefore they are the same person. Babble has 6 letters. Defame has 6 leters. Hatred has 6 letters. Pogrom has 6 letters. Therefore... Doesn't make any sense to me.

To the lynch mob: your souls are full sickness and darkness and a frenzy to destroy and rip apart and belittle. To the real people who remain on Babble: please accept apologies from this Acadian white trash Catholic boy for taking up your time. I don't know what my alternative vote will be - I never vote for the party, I always vote for the candidate but I know I won't be votng for any candidate who espouses any of the ideas I have seen recently from any of the lycnhers.

That was my piece, my little 2 cents worth. Thank you.


From: between Toronto and New Brunswick | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 18 May 2002 11:09 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hesitated for a while before responding to this post. I am a Torontonian. If you know Torontonians, you know we are open minded, neighbourly, and tolerant of just about anyone. We try to let others have their say but will not be quiet when we recognize BS.

I found the treatment of babblers in the above post rather disturbing. A sort of literary lynching.

If you ask Torontonians, we believe the lynchee over the lyncher.

I don't care if Michel and Mimichekele are the same person.

I know a lot about computer systems and security. User names must be unique. System security people will always tell you "do not divulge you password to anyone!" Because knowing Mimi's usernname, as we all do, and password gives you access to his account. Passwords are sacrosanct. You do not share them. Never. Not you PIN number on your bank card, either. Makes sense to this Torontonian.

I worked a reporter, once. So what? It does not amke sense to this Toronto boy. I believe the lynchee over the lyncher.

What I see in this post is deplorable. It seems all babblers are to be condemned for poking fun at a poster who has treated other babblers cruelly and with hatred in a constant and relentless way.

I have to add: I am not Palestinian. I do not know any Palestinians. Not even one. Nor am I Jewish. I feel sickened that I am unable to comment on issues happening within the middle east where both Jews and Palestinians are victimized without being labelled anti-semetic or ridiculed by the likes of Michel/Mimi/whoever.

To this new poster, welcome. But what you accuse babblers of, to destroy and rip apart and belittle, is what Michel was engaging in.

I find it amusing that you can condemn babblers for such actions while overlooking the same actions on the part of Michel. I find it amusing that you can condemn babblers while overlooking that a public figure was being torn down and dismembered not for the failure of his logic or the substance of his ideas but with the slur of anti-semitism. Why argue the ideas when you can ruin the man? And you have no problem with this sort of lynching? And then you preach to us? Shame on you. It makes no sense to this Toronto boy.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riffraff
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2034

posted 18 May 2002 12:45 PM      Profile for Riffraff     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Welcome aboard M.Déon

I apologize for not having finished reading your post. Not being Acadian, I lacked the patience and sense of fairness to hear what you are saying before I respond.

In fact while I was reading, I kind of got distracted by the thought Do or don't good and bad qualities in human beings transcend ethnicity and regions ?


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 18 May 2002 01:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have 4 accounts on workopolis, 2 in English and 2 in French. I use the same password for all 4. I asked the customer service represetnative if this was OK and her answer was yes. I am not a technician but she explained that user names have to be unique, that is how security is protected. She also explaind somehting about dynamicaly assigned IP addresses. I am not a techie but Sapcaru`s explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have also used computers at friends`houses and I am typing now on at my sister`s house (I am using my password but i have used her password for other accounts in the past - this is not financial informaiton, just a discussion board). Sapcaru`s explanation makes sense to this non-techie Acadian boy.

It's still lousy security, and not being conscious of security in all respects inevitably leads to laziness in security even in the important things.

Words to the wise, from a computer geek.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 18 May 2002 07:18 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't really care wether Mich is Michel, I just wish he would quit calling people anti-semites.

Perhaps they are not one in the smae. Who cares? It is just a message board! However, Audra letting us know that Michel had the same password as Mimi led to a a very important admission: that Michel and Mimi are connected.

It was always my believe that Michel had at least been 'invited' onto the boad to fight the Israel fight, as the tenor of his first post suggests: "The Jews are not going to get kicked around on Babble anymore!"

This intimates that he had historical knowledge of the debate on the board.

It is Michel himself who spoke of Michi first, praising his efforts to root out anti-semetism and supporting Michi's efforts to bring 'outside third parties to adjudicate an 'investigation.' The effort smacked of a witch hunt, and actually undermined his cause.

Michi's stated intention, which was to bring outside 'authorities' into the debate, in a sense presaged the 'event' of Michel's arrival. That is supsicious in itself.

The question was not whether or not Michi and Michel used French, but that he did so unaccompanied by translation, on a primarily English board.

quote:
I am not Jewish, I don't have Jewish ancestors or Jewish family membrs as far as I know, I don't live in a Jewsih neighbourhood, I never knew Jewish people bfore leaving New Brunswick, and I don't think I really know that many Jewish people now.

I have problems with identity politics, where someone is from or what their ethnic makeup is irrelvant to an arguement. If their background gives essential knowledge that is different from others it must be respected, but the bottom line is that people are flying airplanes into to buildings in the USA, in part because of US support for Israel.

The Israel Palesetine conflict is everyones problem, and has been for a very long time, ever since the British occupied the Palestine Mandate. we all have a right to speak on it though e must respect evidence presentd by people who background put them in a position to know more than we do.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2404

posted 18 May 2002 08:17 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michi's stated intention, which was to bring outside 'authorities' into the debate, in a sense presaged the 'event' of Michel's arrival. That is supsicious in itself.


OOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo this is sooooooooooooooo spooky.

Is Michi really Mich or is Mich really Michi. Stay tuned folks ggint et al will dig deep into this conspiracy of conspiracies .

Be sure to be here next time...same bat time same bat channel.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 18 May 2002 08:41 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*my tongue hurts from biting it*
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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