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Author Topic: The story from an Israeli soldiers side
clockwork
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posted 15 May 2002 10:17 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He sends his first bullet into the building a few feet below the roof line. The Palestinian family looks about in puzzlement. They know where the shot came from, of course -- by now everyone in Atil knows that the Israeli Army has taken over the large three-story home at the edge of town -- but they don't seem to realize that it was directed at them. Kelman fires a second shot into the building, and then another, and then a fourth, each one edging a bit closer to the family.

An Impossible Occupation

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 16 May 2002 12:33 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What? No is going to complain of bias? Of spin? Of an IDF whitewash?

There are a couple of points in here that I think are worth discussing.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 May 2002 01:31 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is a deafening silence here as well:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001469


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 16 May 2002 01:45 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't you bullies stop trying to bait Zionists all the time?

Please close this thread.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 16 May 2002 04:06 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay doubl…er, rabid Zionist Arch Stanton. Point well taken.

The settler thing doesn't surprise me: I've long since read about the illegality of Israeli settlements and their preferential treatment within the government we should express solidarity to. But my link almost proves what has been claimed all along about Israeli soldier's treatment of citizens. Sure, from the Israeli point of view, every Palestinian is a terrorist, but my link almost substantiates the "human shield" accusations that get bandied about. The problem with people like me is that we don't understand it is a war-zone in the West Bank and Gaza, even though, according to my article, these elite, Israeli forces understand that Palestine is an occupied land. We are to pity the soldiers because they only get a split second notice between blowing the head of some kid or not. After all, they are fighting a war for Israel's very survival.


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skdadl
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posted 16 May 2002 08:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We are to pity the soldiers because they only get a split second notice between blowing the head of some kid or not. After all, they are fighting a war for Israel's very survival.

clock, I also was interested in the way this story was written. It's true that the reporter can't entirely escape the limits of perspective, as you demonstrate above; he is travelling with the soldiers, and first-person narration is inescapably empathy-inducing. I noticed points where the reporter really did seem as blinkered as the soldiers, above all "the lone man." To the soldiers, there were only two explanations possible for that old man's behaviour: he was a suicide bomber, or he was drugged/senile. I think there's at least a possibility that he was doing something like what the family in the opening anecdote were doing, which seems to me a deeply human reaction to the occupation ("the lone man" for me instantly recalls Beijing 1989), but the reporter stops, with the soldiers, on the thought that this old man is either drugged or senile (and therefore dispensable, from the story as from the site, as we all know all drugged and senile people are, of course).

However: Reading this careful report, I was reminded of some of the early Western reporting from Viet Nam. If the occupation continues for long, and if Western reporters continue to stare at the hard truth, I think that both they and their readers will begin to move, as they did then. This isn't objective reporting by any means; but it shows a real willingness to see and write hard ... and there is hope in that.

That, of course, is a lesson that military elites also learned from the journalism of the 1960s-1970s, which is why foreign correspondents are running into unprecedented restrictions and harrassment from governments involved in these crises.


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goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 16 May 2002 08:58 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is also of course the question of what would have happened had the journalist not been around. For instance is the Palestinian man described aware that there is an American Journalist on site? A flashy press pass shows up nice -- they are designed that way.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 16 May 2002 09:06 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why don't you bullies stop trying to bait Zionists all the time?

You know Arch when I first came to this site a month or so ago. I was interested in more subtle argumentation. In fact I was drawn in by an article that was about Islam and the left. I happen to be very interested in Islam and the Left.

For instance I was trying to find out about ways of intepreting the aspect of 'resistance' inherent in 'political Islam' and if there was a way for the left to work with people whom have a non-facist interpretation of Islam. Instead I ran into this pack of muck-racing Zionists calling me an Anti-semite.


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skdadl
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posted 16 May 2002 09:18 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
psst, ggint: I think Arch was winking there. In fact, I'm sure of it. Naughty Arch.
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goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 16 May 2002 09:30 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No matter what, I am being serious, I am pretty annoyed about the fact that their is very little, inter-left debate, and too much 'fight the right.'

Geeze, I haven't even had the chance to show off my encylopedic knowledge about the USSR, January 1921 to March 1923, fer chrisakes!

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 May 2002 09:35 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am pretty annoyed about the fact that their is very little, inter-left debate, and too much 'fight the right.'

Me too, ggint, and others, I know. There used to be.

That is why I am not so sure of your assurance somewhere above, that it is the argument that matters, not the agenda. I hope you are right. But certain agenda have already done a lot of damage.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 16 May 2002 11:04 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Geeze, I haven't even had the chance to show off my encylopedic knowledge about the USSR, January 1921 to March 1923, fer chrisakes!



Kazhdy po svoemu c uma ckhodit. (Russian Proverb)

[edited to fix faulty UBB code ]

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 17 May 2002 10:28 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
GGINT;

Leftwing Islam? Dish.


Serious this time.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 May 2002 10:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, if you want a person whose knowledge of things non-North American is self-admittedly somewhat lacking, it is my recollection that Iran has a small Islamic-socialist movement of some sort.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 17 May 2002 10:51 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Leftwing Islam? Dish.

Well, one of the most serious questions facing the left in the Middle East is its patently obvious failure to seriously penetrate, and have a serious impact on politics. You must ask why is that?

One of the elements that I think has to be understood, and this is relevant to Osama and co, as well as all of the other Whabbist forces, in that organizations such as Hezbollah, Hamas, and other religious focussed groups have been very susccesful at translating disaffection in the region into hardcore grass roots support. I think this come from a couple of sources.

1) That Islam is an age old and traditional focus for resistance to western influences.

2) Left organizations, have appeared at one time or another as an extension of 'western' ideology, and equally part of the process of repression.

3) The 'left' has given Syria and Iraq the Ba'ath party and the roots of distrust go all the way back to the early period of the Russian revolution, wherein the Bolsheviks were very repressive against traditional (often Muslim based) organizations in the Caucuses -- for instance the repression of the Musavaat party in Georgia during the civil war.

The question is: Are Islamic traditions anethema to left constructions, more or less than say Chrisitanity or Judaism? Is it possible for the 'left' to make alliances with forces inside Islam, without getting fucked over like the left did in Iran after the revolution.

More than any of the other two religions, mentioned above, Islam has done more to act as the non-secular guide for state structure. What I am saying is that Islam is one of the few religions that actually has a code of laws intrinsic to its sturcture.

Does this mean that Islam is incompatible with western Humanist traditions such as the marxist tradition and other socialist analysis?


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 18 May 2002 12:48 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As far as I am aware, the West Bank is not officially considered part of Israel. Even mainstream news commentators make a point of referring to it as occupied territory.

Not officially, no, I don't think. But this map thing bugs me. In the link I posted a reference was made to when an Israeli squad commandeered a house and found a picture of Israel, West Bank/Gaza included, that was completely covered in Palestinian colours. In that context, I took it to mean that the author wanted to show what the Israelis were up against. And while I'm not trying to discount that some, or a lot of, Palestines would prefer a Palestinian state where Israel proper is, I found this a bit incongruent to what I understand of the situation over there. I have seen sites claiming that Jordan should even be Israeli territory (but for matters of history, it's not... but should be). A cursory glance on he internet found maps that show Israel and the West Bank/Gaza Strip/Golan Heights/southern Lebanon as a complete contiguous state. Now, I could be reading too much into this, but my point still stands.
http://www.templebuilders.com/maps/modernhtm.htm
http://www.focusmm.com/israel/is_pi_1.htm
http://www.science.co.il/Israel-map-Carta.asp

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
statica
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posted 18 May 2002 04:10 AM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(on war reporting)..."A flashy press pass shows up nice -- they are designed that way."

ya, tell that to journalist mr. pearl....oh wait, he's dead...nevermind
(edited to include more information)

taken from cbc.ca:
"The Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan has praised the courage of journalist, Daniel Pearl. Pearl's murder was confired yesterday by the U-S government after officials viewed a video-tape of the killing. Pearl was kidnapped in Pakistan while on assignment for the Wall Street Journal. In New York, the Committee to Protect Journalists called Pearl's death "brutal, wanton, and senseless."

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: statica ]


From: t-oront-o | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 04:11 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is odd here is that one can find both Palestinain and Israeli maps which include the entire territory. It makes one think that the dispute is not over the division of the state, but the nature of the state.
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goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 04:13 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Pearl was kidnapped and killed by known associates, not in a combat zone, but by people who lured him into a trap. I fail to see the relationship between the two incidents.
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statica
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posted 18 May 2002 04:16 AM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i'm just replying for your flippant comment about journalists...

...just doin' their job...


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goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 04:18 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hardly think it flippant. I suggest you read both my post and the original article, as well as the other psosts that I was responding too. This way you can actually engage in the discussion.
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statica
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posted 18 May 2002 04:19 AM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"It makes one think that the dispute is not over the division of the state, but the nature of the state."
(ie, palestinians want the total eradication of the israeli state/all jews)

ah, the sizzling smell of baiting!!


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goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 04:28 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, actually both side agree on the territory that is under dispute. The issue is the identification of the territory as a 'Jewish' state, as opposed to a secular state in which Jews, Muslim-Arabs and Christians-Arabs have equal rights.

In the twentieth century, concepts such as the separation of church and state are fairly common, in fact the norm, not the exception. There are reasons for this. One of them is the prevention of violent religious conflagration.

Read the history of the 30 years war if you would like some illumination on the subject. Try Google: 30 Years War.


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 04:35 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did the search myself, and aside from some advertisements for some full colour illustrated books and minature soldier figurines I found this:

Thirty Years War: Religious/Economic War for Control of Europe

Causes:

Richelieu's ambition to make France more powerful than the Hapsburgs.

Unresolved religious conflicts between the Catholics and Protestants

Desire of the Germanic princes to become independent of the Holy Roman Empire

Economic competition between Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands and the Hapsburgs

"If you give me six lines written
by the most honest man, I will find
something in them to hang him."

—Cardinal Richelieu

The inquisition: any bells ringing, now?

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


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DrConway
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posted 18 May 2002 05:10 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is to be noted that the Ba'ath party is state socialist and Arab nationalist - not Islamic in nature, at least not as far as I know.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 08:10 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I am trying to get at is that 'Left' political organizations are central to social justice movements world-wide, from Africa to Colombia, from the Philipines to Norway (for better or for worse.) Alternately, their impact has been very minimal in the mid-east and other Muslim regions.

The examples of Lybia, Syria and Iraq, are essentially 'state socialist,' as you said, or as others have put it 'National Socialist/Facist constructions.' National liberation movements in other countries generally form around Islamic organizations; Hizbollah, Hamas and the Taleban, etc. The only anomally in the patern seems to be Turkey where the PPK has been dominant around the issue of Kurdistan.

The occupation of Afghanistan by the USSR certailny did not help the situation, in regards to Muslim attitudes toward 'socialist' ideas.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


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DrConway
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posted 18 May 2002 01:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is, however, doubly ironic that some Afghanis remark upon the 1970s as being a period of relative quiet, even with the Russians being present.

By "state-socialist" I mean that the government has a great deal of influence over the economy and polity, much along Soviet lines.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 09:13 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My friends from Iraq and Syria (refugees) call these regiemes facist -- a mix of nationalism and pan-Arab-nationalism with a sprinkling of socialist popularism. Both officially espouse heavily anti-semitic propoganda, although interestingly both still have significant populations of Jews living in their countries.

In fact, in the case of Iraq a number of the pro-feminist and socialist laws (popular in the soviet period) have been stripped away and a number of laws have been instituted that play to a conservative Muslim audience.


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Lakesh
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posted 18 May 2002 09:19 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My friends from Iraq and Syria (refugees) call these regiemes facist -- a mix of nationalism and pan-Arab-nationalism with a sprinkling of socialist popularism. Both officially espouse heavily anti-semitic propoganda, although interestingly both still have significant populations of Jews living in their countrie
ggint, I don't think "significant" is a fair word to use here. In fact the Jewish populations in both Syria and Iraq are minmal at best. True at one time both these countries had flourishing Jewish communities. Sad to say as a result of the fear and hostility faced by the community the vast majority have escaped. Please read Dr. Hesh Troper's Ransom of the Gods to get the entire story here.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lakesh ]


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goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 18 May 2002 09:21 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My understanding is that Syria offered free right of passage (i.e. the right to emmigrate to Israel) to the Jewish population in 1992, and less than 10% of them left.

By the way the people who offered this information to me are Syrians who think that it is a facist state, and are in serious trouble if they return.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: goodgoditsnottrue ]


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clockwork
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posted 18 May 2002 11:05 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to the survey, released in September, there are a total of 13.5 million Jews in the world, which is less than the total population of Madagascar or Cameroon. Of these, the largest community is 5.6 million Jews living in the United States. The second largest group is 4.9 Jews living in Israel. The third largest Jewish community is 600,000 Jews living in France.

Other Jewish populations include Russia, 400,000; Canada, 360,000; Great Britain and Ukraine, 280,000 each; Argentina, 220,000; Germany, 71,000; Iran, 25,000; Panama, 7,000; Hong Kong, 2,500; Gibraltar, 650; Yemen, 400; Syria, 100.



Source

Edited: actually, I'm not sure how much I'd trust this survey, or what they consider "Jewish". Apparently there are people of Jewish descent in Ethopia but Jews proper, the tanned variety, apparently don't think these black people are Jews.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
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posted 19 May 2002 12:44 AM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Apparently there are people of Jewish descent in Ethopia but Jews proper, the tanned variety, apparently don't think these black people are Jews.

The Ethiopian Jews are considered jews today by all 3 streams of Judaism.

There is now another group of Ethiopians from another part of the country also claiming to have Jewish roots. I suppose it is possible and i expect will be welcomed to Israel.

There is no truth to the overly general statement quoted above. Indeed every society will have their bigots but as elsewhere these bigots are in the minority.


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clockwork
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posted 19 May 2002 01:02 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Ethiopian Jews are considered jews today by all 3 streams of Judaism.

Okay. I'm working from info that is ten yers out of date and subject to vagaries of memory. Although I do seem to remember that Israel wouldn't accept these Jews back. But, again... memory, what it is.

Actually, it's kind of interesting about this clan in Ethiopia. I first heard about them reading about a theory that the Ark of the Covenant made it's way into Ethiopia and the stewards of the Ark settled down there (and hence, why these "Black Jews" exist). I forget the whole story... but interesting, nonetheless, even if it might not be truly accurate.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: clockwork ]


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DrConway
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posted 19 May 2002 01:20 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I seem to recall this too. I read a story somewhere about discrimination against Ethiopian Jews who utilized their right of return, but I cannot recall specifics. I also don't know offhand how systemic it is.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
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posted 19 May 2002 11:44 AM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I seem to recall this too. I read a story somewhere about discrimination against Ethiopian Jews who utilized their right of return, but I cannot recall specifics. I also don't know offhand how systemic it is.
While there can be no doubt that the transition from Ethiopia to Israel was fraught with diffulculties, including poverty and racism, Israel and Jews are fighting hard to deal with these issues. Check out this link for more information, Ethiopian Jewry

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Lakesh ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 May 2002 03:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I know a couple of people who lived in Israel for a while, who also told me that while the official line is that Judaism isn't a "race", there are a significant number of people in Israel who consider non-white Jews to be "less Jewish" or perhaps question their lineage more than that of white Jews. Not to mention that they were treated quite badly by many people while he was living there, being Iranian refugees.

That said, although I have absolutely no firsthand knowledge of this except for a few brief conversations with people, so I'm willing to bet it's like racism here - that most people are probably doing their best to eradicate it both in themselves and in their society.

I just briefly glanced at that link about Ethiopian Jews - I plan to read it in its entirety. Looks really interesting. I've never been able to figure out whether being Jewish means lineage or religious beliefs or both. Maybe you could tell me, Lakesh.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
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posted 19 May 2002 04:04 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
just briefly glanced at that link about Ethiopian Jews - I plan to read it in its entirety. Looks really interesting. I've never been able to figure out whether being Jewish means lineage or religious beliefs or both. Maybe you could tell me, Lakesh.

"Who is a Jew" is a question Jews have struggled with for millenia.

As simply stated, A Jew is a person born of a Jewish mother or one who converts to Judaism.

(In reform Jewish circles there has been some movement towards patrilineal descent but this has not been widely adopted)

There are variants to some degree most important of which to note is that a Jew that accepts another religion or a God other than the God of the Pentateuch (Five Books of Moses...Torah) is considered an "apostate" in that he has removed himself from the "religion" of the Jewish people. As such they lose the religious rites of Judaism including the rite to a Jewish marriage, a bar mitzvah, or a Jewish burial.

It gets more complicated but I hope this has been helpful.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 May 2002 05:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It has. That's what I thought - I hadn't heard that there was a move to make Judaism patrilineal though - kind of odd, considering you always know who the mother of the child is.

Edited to take further questions out, because this is thread drift. I think I'll take these questions to a new thread in Body and Soul.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 November 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scene:

A JEEP has just bumped into a THREAD. Its radiator is steaming visibly, and the front end is severely wrecked.

The DRIVER, Dr. Conway, wearing a pith helmet and other archaeological trappings, is beside the vehicle, swearing a blue streak.

Fade out.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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