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Author Topic: Why the heck does Toronto vote Liberal
Trespasser
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posted 10 January 2002 04:14 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
... federally? And why is it that the Liberals are the immigration party and the urban party of Canada?

Could there be a "Trudeau-let-us-all-in" myth still alive and well among the immigrant 'communities'? Even if the current immigration policy (not to mention the proposed changes) happens to be deeply flawed? An expression of greed and calculated kindness? Even if Canada has the highest Right of Landing Fee among democratic countries? And so on?

How incompetent the NDP had to be to lose the immigrant constituency to the Liberals? And why are the biggest cities in Canada voting Liberal by rule? Are the Liberals in favour of a stricter gun control policies than the NDP?

Help me figure this out.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 10 January 2002 04:50 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about this:

A) There is no opposition by virtue of the fact that the Alliance is not acceptable to most Canadians and the Tories are too busy going after the hard right rump than the soft middle to actually threaten the liberals.

B) The corporate dominated media barely mention the NDP except to tell us their problems and never present them as an alternative.

C) The NDP, able to operate without the glare of the media, is too busy infighting to actually reach anyone.

D) The Greens ... do the Greens have a federal party?

'Nuff said.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 10 January 2002 05:11 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now that you mentioned the Alliance. There are several foreign-born MPs in their caucus. The only Muslim in the Parliament is an Alliance MP. Even they have some success in attracting recent and first generation immigrants.

I am aware of the external impediments to a higher NDP profile in multi-cultural and urban environments (biased media etc), but there could be something wrong in what we ourselves are doing in approaching this constituency. What on earth is it?


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 10 January 2002 05:33 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let me just go off into an "in the soo..." story, and hopefully some paralells, or examples can be taken.

We have a very strong NDP presence here. Tony Martin is our MPP, and had it not been for "the scare of 2000", I think that the NDP would have either won, if not came much closer to challenging Carmen (our Liberal MP).

From my brief experience with the NDP here, I don't really find the 'infighting' that I hear of from other parts of the country. There's some diversity, of course, but I don't think it gets in the way. Issues are discussed, and we try to come to a concensus. In general, I'd say the NDP organization itself, up here, is considerably more radical than the federal NDP establishment. I'm pretty sure almost all of the local NDP organization think that capitalism, as an economic system, is morally wrong. Also, I have yet to meet a local ND that opposes the NPI- many have questions about it, some are neutral, but from what I've seen, a lot support it, and everyone is open (not just to NPI, but really generally and genuinely open).

Perhaps that's what's different between here and some of the areas where the NDP should be doing well, but is relatively low, instead. Perhaps a deeper sense of community, or solidarity.

Coincidentally, there's a riding association meeting tonight!

As for why Toronto votes liberal- I was going to say it doesn't, but then I remembered looking at the records, and yes- it does- often with over 60%. So I think Wingy said most of it, but also we have to factor in the alliance scare, back in 2000, as well as screwy riding boundaries, for instance, Davenport- VERY diverse, includes slivers of Chinatown, Little Italy, as well as (I think) a few ritsier neighborhoods.


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alldaybreakfast
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posted 10 January 2002 07:25 PM      Profile for alldaybreakfast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you're right about riding lines in Toronto, meades. Because they often lump several very different neighbourhoods together, the usual Liberal "defence" votes get stronger...

for example, one riding puts Rosedale (wealthy, mostly white) together with St. Jamestown (poor; many immigrants). I would speculate that a lot of Rosedale people vote Liberal rather than Tory/Alliance because they're afraid of the NDP vote south of Bloor, and likewise, afraid of right-wing Rosedale votes, St. Jamestown residents hedge and vote Liberal instead of NDP. Voila, the riding goes Liberal.


My riding, St. Paul's, is similar. East of Bathurst is Forest Hill, which is almost as tony as Rosedale. West of Bathurst around the Vaughan Rd.-Oakwood area is working/lower middle class and West Indian/Italian/Portuguese/Philipino.

The phenomenon is repeated in other ridings as well. (Trinity-Spadina = Annex vs. Chinatown, Kensington; Eglinton-Lawrence = North Toronto/Lawrence Park/Hog's Hollow vs. Bathurst Heights ["the jungle"])

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: alldaybreakfast ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
LiMpY
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posted 11 January 2002 02:02 AM      Profile for LiMpY     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another reason the NDP is doing so poorly is it has lost a lot of the support it once had from blue-collar communities. Some of the policies of the NDP directly threaten businesses that they work in (mainly because they are pollutant), and therefore they are reluctant to support the NDP. And blue-collar folk tend to stick together, even if one works in an industrial plant and the other builds houses.

The Tories need a new leader. I actually liked Joe Clark, even though he seemed to be exhibiting signs of senility, until he did that flip-flop on C-36 and voted for it.

I don't think the Alliance is a viable alternative right not for anyone (and certainly not us lefties)...but in 3 yrs...who knows?

If only the Bloc weren't seperatist. Has anyone ever taken a look at their policies? They have some pretty sound economic and social theories.


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vickyinottawa
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posted 14 January 2002 11:35 AM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's recognize, though, that Toronto does vote NDP, provincially and municipally - esp the downtown ridings. That we've been unable to make a breakthrough federally is a disappointment, but there have been some close races. Also, Toronto-area Liberals tend to be more progressive, and this tends to draw the soft liberal vote that the NDP relies on to get elected. They talk the talk, and even though the government never follows through on any of the things that seem to matter to, say, Carolyn Bennet or Bill Graham, they still get elected.

I think it's also worth pointing out that many marginalized communities support candidates who have a better chance at getting power, and thereby delivering some concrete things to that community. This is certainly the case in, say, Cape Breton or Newfoundland. We may have the right policies and all, but federally (and provincially right now) all we can promise is that we'll fight like hell on the issues that matter to people. For many, this just isn't enough.

Also, come election day, we often don't have the resources to pull the vote in the same way as the Liberals do - renting buses to bring people to the polls, etc.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing more to outreach to the immigrant communities. I think we have a long, long way to go in that respect. But it's not the panacea to our urban electoral problems.


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 January 2002 11:39 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We may have the right policies and all, but federally (and provincially right now) all we can promise is that we'll fight like hell on the issues that matter to people. For many, this just isn't enough.


Yes, this amazes me. It is not just there but here as well. The prevailing wisdom seems to be: "better to elect a party you know will screw you in the hopes it doesn't than a party that will at least scream and holler and be a good witness when the other party does screw you."

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 14 January 2002 09:37 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My thoughts exactly, WingNut.
From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 23 January 2002 03:06 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Strategic voting drives me crazy. Vote for the platform you agree with. Let the government know where you personally stand. Since they're largely governing by poll, use the poll that you have the greatest control over to express your preference. If your candidate wins, great. If not, at least you have joined a chorus of other Canadians who are brave enough to vote for what they want, not for what they don't want.

End of rant.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 23 January 2002 03:13 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And why is it that the Liberals are the immigration party and the urban party of Canada?


I thought the Libs were most popular in the suburbs, and less popular in the downtown areas? Am I mistaken?


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Snafu
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posted 23 January 2002 04:48 PM      Profile for Snafu     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe it's better to vote Liberal than the NDP. This is how the Liberals could get even more votes in the next Federal election from the right.

"Vote Liberal not NDP. We're the lesser of the two evils."

Fuck you, Svend and the NPI and NDP


From: Somewhere Out There | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
banquo
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posted 23 January 2002 04:58 PM      Profile for banquo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'know...gawd I hate to set myself up as an easy target but one of the attractive things about the Libs these days in Canada is that they're non-ideological. They're pragmatic. They'll take policy from either side of the spectrum and implement it (more or less) as soon as it seems to their poliing machine like an idea that's got momentum. It seems every other party is dogma-bound to the point of inflexibility.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 23 January 2002 05:03 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
That's the mythic image of the Liberals. The reality tends to be different (often depending on who's telling the story).

A pragmatic, non-ideological crook is still a crook.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
banquo
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posted 23 January 2002 05:09 PM      Profile for banquo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So tell the story your way. Show me the ideology...

A crook is a crook after charges have been laid and they're declared guilty of those charges. Until that point is reached calling someone a "crook" is pointless and feeble rhetoric. Just ask Glen Clark.


From: north vancouver, bc | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 23 January 2002 05:20 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with M'Boy on this one. Liberals are far from being non-ideological. They're leaving a sad legacy in media concentration, economic and foreign policy dependancy on the US, ways of dealing with deficit that would shame Mulroney goverment, immigration policies devoid of vision and competence, weird First Nations policies, et endless cetera.

M'Boy's previous question: I don't have the stats, but the fact is that To. MPs are Liberal, and that no urban centre (other than a couple of MPs sent from Winnipeg, Vancouver and Halifax) votes NDP. Also, the fact is that immigrants tend to vote Liberal.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 23 January 2002 05:24 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Well cut off my leg and call me Eileen.


Everybody's ideological. Not everybody wants to admit they're ideological. It's impossible to be an absolute centrist, just like it's impossible to be totally unbiased, objective, etc...

As such, I think ssing the word "ideology" as an insult pretty silly.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
banquo
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posted 23 January 2002 05:26 PM      Profile for banquo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Liberals are far from being non-ideological. They're leaving a sad legacy in media concentration, economic and foreign policy dependancy on the US, ways of dealing with deficit that would shame Mulroney goverment, immigration policies devoid of vision and competence, weird First Nations policies, et endless cetera."

Granted that all those things are true but none of them point toward a "Liberal ideology". Some of them point to a traditional small c conservative ideology, some to a neo-con, some to a poorly thought through version of leftist etc etc.


From: north vancouver, bc | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 23 January 2002 05:37 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody suggested that there's such thing as a coherent ideology (or, God forbid, political philosophy) of the Liberal Party of Canada. Their "ideology", and that's probably a compliment, and their deeds, are mainly neo-liberal. Their "leftist" rhetoric, when they decide to play with it, is of the "Third way" provenience.

But I'd never say that what they are and what they do is "ideologically" vague and middle-of-the-road.

And yes M'Boy, in a sense, there is no such thing as ideology-free anything.

Now how about the topic of this thread?


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
banquo
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posted 23 January 2002 05:41 PM      Profile for banquo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose, in terms of this thread, that my point was that Libs appeal to Toronto for the same reason they appeal to other central urban ridings - they're seen as not being ideologically hide-bound.

And I'm not your boy by any stretch son. :-)


From: north vancouver, bc | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 23 January 2002 05:43 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
M'Boy is short for MediaBoy.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 23 January 2002 05:43 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And I am not "a son"

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Trespasser ]


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
banquo
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posted 23 January 2002 05:44 PM      Profile for banquo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oops. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
From: north vancouver, bc | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 23 January 2002 05:46 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Once again, I'm quickest on the keys. *Happy Dance!*


(Hey, when was flood-control shortened to 60 seconds? Kudos to the admin-folk!)


(Nice try editing your post there Trespassie!)

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Victor Von MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 23 January 2002 05:57 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 January 2002 03:01 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Back on topic: Maybe Liberal MPs are really good at getting the vote out at the local level. When Liberal backbenchers actually have the cohones to cross Poppa Jean and speak for themselves, they tend to sound pretty darned intelligent. Maybe Liberal candidates tend to be really impressive at all-candidates meetings, only to be ignored once they actually get into office.

Or maybe Toronto voters' brains have been addled by all those Coffee Time donuts. What IS it with the GTA and Coffee Time?!?!?! They're EVERYWHERE!!!


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 January 2002 03:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know, and if it's not Coffee Time it's Coffee Lime. Believe it or not, there was this little doughnut shop on Pape Avenue, north of Bloor, called "Coffee Lime". Similar look to the Coffee Time chain. The first time I saw it, I laughed like hell - it doesn't even make SENSE!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 January 2002 03:14 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I'm gonna open up a Tim Borton's.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 January 2002 03:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure, you can open it right across the street. So people can sue you for eye injuries when they hurt themselves rolling their eyes TWICE on the same bus trip.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 04:56 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Something in the coffee must be part of the answer.

And maybe the Liberals sell their candidates in Toronto and many other urban environments as potential Cabinet and committee material. And many do get such positions.

But I still can't explain why Heather-jane Robertson, for instance, lost to that obscure guy what's-his-name, Mac something, in Ottawa-Centre last elections. I know he was an incumbent, but so what, people have been unseated before.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 24 January 2002 05:00 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mac Harb? As ever, I blame the Alliance and Liberal spin-doctors.
From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 January 2002 05:04 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Mac Harb. He's my MP. What a knob.

When Elections Canada tried to make it easier for homeless folk to vote in the last federal election, Harb whined that the homeless of Ottawa Centre should be forced to register in Vanier, since there are no homeless shelters in Ottawa Centre, and the shelters should be considered their "place of residence".

Gee Mac, are you really afraid that a few homeless guys are gonna swing the vote THAT much?


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 05:56 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isn't that special.

I remember, something happened during the election campaign in that riding that caused a physical confrontation of HJR's and his supporters at one point. What was it, I forget. And allegedly, because of that incident and his general sleaze a significant percentage of his supporters turned to HJR. To no avail, as it turned out.

Meades, I wonder about those Lib spin doctors. I read Warren Kinsella's Kicking Ass in Canadian Politics and the book struck me with its mediocrity, lack of originality (the man actually copies everything from Clinton advisors) and pettiness (have you heard of his list of journalists and the grades he gave them?). If men like that call the shots in Canadian party politics, then I don't know what to say.

And I still wonder about the immigrants issue. Maybe some Liberals MPs endorse their prospective constituents and help them through bureaucracy? If not that, then what is it?


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 January 2002 06:04 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
What are the demographics like in Ottawa-Centre? The Elections Canada site didn't offer much information: http://www.elections.ca/scripts/info/edMap_e.asp?edID=35059


It includes the Glebe. Maybe that's a clue. "Left"-leaning folk with lots of money. Don't want the NDP raising their taxes, but don't want to align with the big-bad "right-wing"

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Victor Von MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 06:05 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or get this: how is it that Micheal Valpy didn't get Trinity-Spadina? I just can't fathom it.
From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 06:09 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That Ottawa-Centre has an interesting history. Maude Barlow, as a member of the Liberal Party ages ago, ran for and didn't get her party nomination in that riding.

I am looking at the list of all candidates in Ontario urban ridings, through the web site that you reminded me of. I am looking for the post-election percentages, though.

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Trespasser ]


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
NDB
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posted 24 January 2002 06:16 PM      Profile for NDB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I had an interesting chat with a kid from Ottawa Centre this past weekend. He claims that during the last election Mac Harb had lost so much sway with the local Liberals, a number of them campaigned NDP. After he won (again ) they were expelled.

The demographics in Ottawa-Centre are all over the place. It goes as far west as Churchill I think - lots of different neighbourhoods.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 January 2002 06:16 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
With property values in urban areas going up and up and up, you'll probably see lots more voters who lean "left" but have big fat bank accounts.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 06:33 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NDB, that's what I was referring to above. I heard that too. And he won again.

Now Toronto-Rosedale always has goings-on. First there was the Ann Cools nomination mini-affair (which I heard of thanks to the NFB documentary The Right Candidate for Rosedale) back in the Trudeau era. But the riding was traditionally PC, and of the Cabinet type. When David MacDonald in 1997 ran under the NDP banner, Bill Graham won. And he won again over David Berlin in 2000. As I found out just now, Paul Hellyer ran in that riding for his Canadian Action Party in 2000.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 24 January 2002 06:35 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
re: Kinsella- I thought about reading his book, but whenever I would so much as touch the book (let alone read the back), I got this overwhelming urge to hurl the book across the book store and scream "Fuck you! You arrogant son of a bitch!!!". I got the feeling the read would be about as intelectually stimulating as cleaning the litter box- of course without the relief that comes with knowing the cats won't leave 'surprises' on the living room rug.

As for immigration- the Liberals talk up multiculturalism so much you'd think they invented the word, and used it to resurect a messiah, or something! While the NDP, looking inward, is OBVIOUSLY pro-multiculturalism, and to a much larger degree than the Liberals, we tend not to advertise it as much. Perhaps whoever is making the pamphlets thought it went without saying- that's a mistake, I think. We should advertise it just as much, if not more than the Liberals.

As for Ottawa-Centre, the NDP came second in both previous federal elections see here. I think it's only a matter of time before the riding goes back NDP. BTW, what is HJR famous for, again?

Trinnity-Spadina- Tony Ianno, I think, is as left as Liberals get (I could be wrong, but that's the only reason I can think of). He could have been more or less running like a new democrat- but under the Liberal banner. Again, I could be wrong- I don't know the area that well. Who is Micheal Valpy, anyway? I know he was the NDP candidate- but does he have any other claim to fame (as much as I hate that cliché)? What really surprises me is that Olivia Chow didn't win in '97. I really like her- I hope she runs in the next election for this riding. But who knows, she may decide to stay in municipal politics (I hope she doesn't though! We need good MP's in Parliament! WE REALLY REALLY NEED THEM!!!).

Wow- the right is really inexistant in Trinnity-Spadina. I know where I'm moving!


From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 24 January 2002 06:48 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OH! Maybe the right DOES exist in Trinity-Spadina, but they all vote Liberal for fear of the NDP! Perhaps, with any luck, they'll be voting PC or CA because of the Liberals "weak response" to 9/11, or perhaps because of "over-spending", or corruption, or any number of reasons next time!

What about Toronto-Danforth?

btw, here are Toronto ridings, and Ottawa ridings. This is southeastern Ontario.


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Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 06:57 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on Robertson. Valpy is a columnist for Globe and Mail, although I couldn't find his name among the regular columnists last time I checked and I wonder if he still writes for Mope.

Liberals are great at recruiting 'new Canadians.' Several members of their caucus are foreign-born. Perhaps it would be interesting to see the percentage of new Canadians that get the nominations for the NDP, in winnable ridings in particular. And how attentive NDP MPs are to concerns brought to them by either new citizens or prospective citizens.

The policy can't be the issue, the NDP has the best immigration policies. They're the only ones in Parliament to address the problems like easing requirements on foreign qualifications, the living conditions and rights of domestic work visa holders, and the outrageously high Right of Landing Fee. So it's gotta be something else.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 07:08 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for these links, Meades. Toronto-Danforth! Wow! So Jack Layton did run federally for the NDP after all! In 1997! I heard that he was asked to but that he "was busy with his own municipal business." Interesting. And he lost to a Liberal back-bencher.
From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 24 January 2002 07:15 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
who's Jack Layton? Wow- I really wish there were a leftists "Who's Who", or something...
From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 24 January 2002 07:37 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Layton is a well-known-among-Torontonians municipal politician -- maybe somebody from Toronto could tell us what exactly he's doing now, I think he's at the To. school board, but don't quote me on that. When I was in To. this month, the NOW magazine praised him as the right person for the federal leadership position.

I'd need a Who's Who too, dear meades. Olivia Chow?


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 24 January 2002 07:49 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Liberals are great at recruiting 'new Canadians.' Several members of their caucus are foreign-born.

You're right, and M'boy also had a good point about the Liberals being good at mobilizing. Sometimes, of course, the two converge.

In 1988 I was working in a print shop in downtown Toronto. One fine day, who should happen along but a Liberal Party hack of my acquaintance, whom I'd known slightly at school. There was a leadership race at the time, and he needed brochures or some such. (Luckily we used to stock large quantities of "Liberal Red" ink. But I digress, as usual).

Now, there'd recently been newspaper stories about delegate selection meetings being stacked by busloads of "instant Liberals" who voted en bloc, generally for what turned out to be the winning candidate. As often as not these were immigrants, often very recent immigrants, in some cases without much knowledge of English let alone Canadian politics, who'd had their party memberships bought for them by some influential local member of their community, and who then turned up to vote his way. It was machine politics at its finest.

I called Mr. Hack (whom I didn't like very much, incidentally) on this, asking him how people were expected to shed their cynicism about electoral politics in general, and the Liberal Party in particular, when faced with such shenanigans.

His shrug would have been worthy of Trudeau, had he not had a much greater resemblence, physically and in every other way, to Jim Coutts. "So what's wrong with letting some New Canadians have a piece of the action?" he asked.

It was left to me only to gape at this wonderfully idealistic view of politics. "A piece of the action," indeed.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 24 January 2002 07:50 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Olivia Chow More... Wow, I didn't know those two were married!
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Sine Ziegler
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posted 03 July 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
donht know
From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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