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Author Topic: Another education study
Markbo
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Babbler # 124

posted 04 December 2001 11:01 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OECD rankings on reading, math and science

The point I want to make is how well Alberta did. It beat out every province in reading.

Now I know that Alberta has a lower share of immigrants than Ontario but at a minimum it proves that the education cuts and increased teaching time didn't hurt students in Alberta at all.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nic
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posted 04 December 2001 11:16 PM      Profile for Nic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But their counterparts in Atlantic Canada performed well below the national average.
I guess this shows that education cuts did hurt Atlantic Canadian students.

I don't think we can boil this down that simply.


From: Incheon, Korea | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 05 December 2001 12:59 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It shows that funding is not the problem in itself.
From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nic
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posted 05 December 2001 03:16 AM      Profile for Nic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that funding is not the only factor in weither or not an education system is good but I don't think that your study shows that. What would actually be usefull to see is how much each province funds education per capita. I really don't know the results, but I think that NS is somewhere near the bottom and that Alberta is near the middle(I remember this from some NSTU propiganda so feel free to dismiss it if you like).
From: Incheon, Korea | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
David Kyle
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posted 05 December 2001 10:31 AM      Profile for David Kyle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its great to see Alberta on top. Maybe more people will start to realize that throwing money at a system isn't a cure-all.

My pet theory for the regional score differences is the high the average education in a community the better the kids will do at school. Alberta has the highest education level in the country so it makes sense that the kids will do better at school.


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 05 December 2001 10:41 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You have to give markbo credit. There is an existing thread on this, but he doesn't like the posts so he starts another. Hmmm. Anyway, my last two posts from the other thread:

posted December 05, 2001 01:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, it is interesting. Alberta is not at war with its teachers and no Alberta minister ever announced the need to "create a crisis." In fact how do Alberta teachers fare? Well, let's ask the Albertan government:

quote:

With the minimum 6 percent increase provided to school boards in Budget 2001, teacher's salaries in Alberta will be the highest on average compared to other provinces.
The government values teachers and invests significantly in education. This year spending on education has increased by nearly one quarter of a billion dollars.

This will help ensure that school boards have additional resources to invest in the classroom and that Alberta teachers continue to be fairly compensated.

In terms of overall spending on K-12 education, Alberta is in the middle compared to other provinces. But in terms of results, Alberta students are consistently at the top. We also have measures, such as a 4 percent cap on administration, which ensure that the maximum dollars are directed to the classroom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Maybe Ontario can learn something from Alberta. By the way, how did Ontario fare in the testing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here we go:
Ontario results --

Reading Literacy 3
Mathematics 6
Science 5

That means Ontario students were in the lower half for two out of three subjects. The results of Common Sense and Revolution, I guess.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 05 December 2001 02:23 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Grrr. I KNEW somebody was going to point out that the cuts in Alberta did not hurt students.

I think it has a little more to do with family income level. The more well off a family is, or educated ( I am told Calgary has the highest level of educated people in Canada ) the more likely the children are going to learn to read at a younger age and are going to take after their parents.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 06 December 2001 03:21 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No one could argue that cuts help. There just is no evidence they are responsible for any decrease. Of course there are too many factors to compare.

One difference is high school teaching time. That seems to be the biggest bone of contention in Ontario.

I hate it that my posts will be taken as teacher bashing, they're not. Teachers deserve the pay they get and should get more support from principles and the system. They work hard. My problem is with the Unions not willing to budge even a little on issues that could help get a compromise, such as sick days and a few other minor ones.

Yeah sure the tories are also to blame, Hopefully the liberals will fare better.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 06 December 2001 03:55 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are there some stats that show where Ontario was before the Tories?
From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
John I. Fleming
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posted 06 December 2001 06:37 AM      Profile for John I. Fleming        Edit/Delete Post
Every three years, The Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) will measure performance of 15-year-old students in reading, mathematics, and science. In addition, “cross-curricular-competencies” will be assessed. The spring of 2000 was the first year the OECD implemented PISA and measured their results.

Previous international testing were done by the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMMS). PISA is not a replacement for TIMMS and both will continue. The next TIMMS test will comence in 2003.

Now to answer the question of Ontario results over the Conservative years in office. Ontario children test results have consistantly propelled higher over this time. The number one reason for this higher achievement can be found in Alberta's example: a strict curriculum. Alberta has the hardest curriculum in Canada and it is no wonder they done better. That is your reason for Alberta's excellent results.

John I. Fleming

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: John I. Fleming ]


From: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
John I. Fleming
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posted 06 December 2001 07:46 AM      Profile for John I. Fleming        Edit/Delete Post
Here is the proof from the TIMMS Canada Report that Ontario students got better in math and science during the time the Conservatives were in power:

quote:
"Thirty-eight countries took part in TIMSS–99. Twenty-six of these countries had also participated in
TIMSS–95......... Within Canada, scores improved significantly for science in Québec and Ontario, and for mathematics in Ontario between 1995 and 1999."

TIMSS-Canada Report

Now the OECD report shows Ontario is still doing well in Conservative land. So much for the rhetoric.

John I. Fleming

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: John I. Fleming ]


From: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 06 December 2001 09:18 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So much for the rhetoric.

Well, you should know about that.

And I have to ask (yet AGAIN) Mr Fleming: are you ignoring me? Did you forget my questions?


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
John I. Fleming
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posted 06 December 2001 09:34 AM      Profile for John I. Fleming        Edit/Delete Post
I don't ignore any socialist liberal, especially from this board. The only thing I haven't answered as yet is the health care dollars the provinces are demanding from the federal government that you seem to feel they don't owe. I just got back from my hiatus and you can be rest assured I will address this only issue that I haven't as yet.

John I. Fleming

P.S. As for your quoting me on rhetoric, I seem to recall way too many socialists claiming that Ontario students are failing when clearly they are not. Not from a national and international perspective anyway.


From: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 06 December 2001 09:40 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
HmmmI seem to recall that the tory governments own hired gun showed that Ontario students were indeed faring poorly.

I also seem to recall a recent audit showing that funds from the federal government for health care were being mismanaged.

I guess I could be living in an alternate universe.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 06 December 2001 10:11 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Fleming, you've been back for two days.

There were two questions there that you did not answer, plus some other extraneous ones.

I think country-bumpkin conservatives can't read very well.

PS: do the good marks at Ontario schools have to do with them teaching homosexuality in the classroom?

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 06 December 2001 01:12 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually how you can get the scores higher or lower is whether you include all the students in on the test (as some Jurisdictions do) or whether you exclude those diagnosed with learning disabilities. Could make a few differences in points.
From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
David Kyle
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posted 06 December 2001 04:39 PM      Profile for David Kyle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here are the 2000 results showing the Candian provinces in relation to each other and the international community. Click and scroll down to see the results table.

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: David Kyle ]


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
David Kyle
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posted 06 December 2001 05:01 PM      Profile for David Kyle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now this is interesting. Anglophone students scored better than Francophone students in reading.

Average reading scores by language of the school system and province (scroll to the bottom of the document).

quote:
Socio-economic background had a smaller impact on reading achievement in Canada than in other countries

quote:
Alberta, on the other hand, had generally the highest achievement scores across all levels of family socio-economic background..

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: David Kyle ]


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
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posted 06 December 2001 05:11 PM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When I watch the 100M dash, there is only one winner and he/she is about .01 seconds faster than the silver medallist. The fact is that the top several runners are all damn fast. So, just how significant are the differences between the top several finishers in the reading, writing and math contests. And did you look the confidence intervals; they kind of blur the distinction between the top several spots. For my money, this is just not worth getting excited about and then changing this and then that. Are the minute differences due to funding, racial, socio-economic reasons or are they due the phases of the moon? All of this seems overstated in its importance to me.
From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 07 December 2001 09:17 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think rankings are helpful, but at the same time I don’t think we need to be fixated on it. The results are a guide, a handy metric, but not the final say.

The following is an excerpt from the Globe and Mail, “Why Johnny can read”, by Sean Fine (available on the site) comparing education reforms in Alberta to Ontario.

quote:

The ideas, in other words, are coming from the bottom up, rather than from the top down. The province sets the framework, and doles out the money; but when the projects are set in motion, it's not a struggle to get everyone onside.
Just as important is how the ideas are implemented. Schools are famously stodgy places; budging the status quo isn't easy. But in these Alberta programs, the people who train the teachers come right into the classroom for on-the-job instruction. It's a much smarter approach than simply shipping teachers off for lessons that may not apply to their own situation. They can ask questions as they go along.
The teachers are also given time away from their classrooms for instruction, with a trainer available to take their class. And each week those teachers in the program meet to hear speakers, discuss strong and weak points, refinements and so on. The principal, the key figure in any school, is involved from the start. The entire school has an impressive focus and energy.
Compare that to Ontario, whose 15-year-olds achieved mediocre results on the OECD test scores. A cynic might say Ontario has been alienating without innovating. In fact, the province has had some good ideas (toughening up its curriculum, creating province-wide tests). It should also be noted that the school system in Toronto, which has lost roughly 15 per cent of its $2-billion-plus annual budget in five years, still has things Alberta's public schools do not, such as free supervised-lunch programs, on-site daycare, and a deep roster of extracurricular activities.
But in making the curriculum both more complex, and more packed with material, Ontario created a teaching challenge it failed to address with relevant training. It would have been enough to focus the system's effort on making this major change work; but at the same time the province gave the teachers more classes to teach, and cut their professional activity days to four from nine. Worse than simply being unprepared, Ontario teachers were also needlessly antagonized.
No wonder Ontario children are struggling. Failure rates under the new Grade 9 curriculum are up sharply. Thirty-two per cent of Grade 10 students failed a basic literacy test last year. Only half of Grade 3 and 6 pupils reach the province's acceptable standard on annual reading and writing tests.
The secret of engagement? It can't be unlocked by magic or by directive from a central authority. Like a song, it involves a rhythm and unity that can hardly be expressed in words. But you know it when you've got it.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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