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Author Topic: Government's
bellows
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 747

posted 04 November 2001 03:41 PM      Profile for bellows     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All trouble in this world is caused by the government in power. Take Canada as a example. The prime minister as a dictator can pass any bill that comes into his head. The people has no say whatsoever. Some bills cause trouble, but who cares, all you have to do is look at the bunch of idiot's on THEIR TV channel. All the yelling and screeming don't mean a thing. The prime minister has the last say, and if you don't toe the line you are out.All countries are the same, the government is the cause of all wars and unrest. Until you get a government that is for the people and not for themselves we will never have peace, not in a thousand years.
From: Corner Brook | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 04 November 2001 04:51 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And what alternative do you offer? Government by referendum? Seems like your best bet for that is the Canadian Alliance or the Tories. They seem to support referendum the most of the political parties.
From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
bellows
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 747

posted 04 November 2001 08:13 PM      Profile for bellows     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suggest we have a elected senate with no party affilacation. The same number of senators for each prov.& territory. This number could be anywhere from five to ten. By having the same number it would keep the larger prov. from controlling the smaller ones. But do you really think the MP'S would want this, NO. Why? because then we would not have a dictorial government.
From: Corner Brook | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 228

posted 04 November 2001 09:50 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've always wondered about elected politicians. Lets say if Bozo the Clown runs and wins his riding. he doesn't do anything other than sound and look good. He tells people what they want to hear and he eventually becomes a professional politician. One day he may be the head of a ministry or even the leader of the opposition.
Believe me I was never in love with Mulroney but I have to give him credit for being able to enact legislation that was, and still is, very unpopular. It s hard to say if the GST is good for the population or not. It would be comforting to know if it was necessary and if it is good for Canadian people as opposed to the Government ruling party to further their agenda. I would say that most Canadians have become apathetic to politics in favour of things like bigger houses, more expensive cars and fighting to preserve our right to pollute, consume massive amounts of energy and resources.
Concentrated media ownership softens up the public to be put on a platter and served up hot to the most likely party to win the election. Policy? What policy? Current government policy is like eating a steady diet of junk food. It sure tastes good but in the end it has zero nutritional or social value.
Go out and spend my hard earned money but don't be surprised when the economy tanks and my job goes south and I know the saftey net has been sold out.

From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 625

posted 04 November 2001 09:57 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The problem is Canada doesn't have any checks and balances, and can't even be considered a democracy. I made a thread called the C"D"S game, where you find the best words you can to describe the current state of Canadian "Democracy".

Anyway, if we had the checks and balances, and real participatory democracy, we wouldn't have as much trouble with actual politicians. We'd probably still make mistakes in policy, but at least with a real democracy we could say that they were our mistakes, and not the mistakes of professional politicians, or 30% of a riding, or what-have-you.


From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 04 November 2001 10:24 PM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trudeau, Levesque, Ed Broadbent believed in things (beyond getting and keeping power). Even Mulroney had some convictions. The current crop of politicians seem to be a bunch of used car salesmen, clowns, bullies and trained seals (observe the automatic clapping every time one of their own says anything). They are certainly not what I would call statesmen.

Take Chretien for example. Two comments he made I will never forget: 1. When confronted by a young Canadian boy protesting child labour in India, Chretien’s reply was: “We need business, not sermons”.2. During the OKA crisis Chretien said: “why don’t we let them go, we can always arrest them later”. Obviously a man of principles.

Whatever is left over after self-interest seems to be following American initiatives in a lockstep fashion. Have you noticed that when installing many new software packages Canadian provinces are mixed together with US states in alphabetical order (when you are required to select your location) – so much for our sovereignty. If my memory serves Trudeau was the last who dared to stand up to the Americans and say no (no wonder they hated his guts).

Meades is right -- the key is participation. We are just too damn spoiled and lazy to speak up, as long as we have most of our comforts we have become accustomed to. John Ralston Saul has a lot to say on the subject .

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Zatamon ]


From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 04 November 2001 11:48 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Even Mulroney had some convictions.

Never thought I'd see the day anyone on the left expressed the slightest nostalgia for the Jaw That Walked Like A Man !

For myself, I think Mulroney was merely a precursor. There were a couple of convictions there, it's true, but he never let them get in the way of declaring Canada Open for Business.

quote:
John Ralston Saul has a lot to say on the subject .

He's great, isn't he. It's a scandal his stuff isn't better known.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 04 November 2001 11:53 PM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'lance, Mulroney consistently stood up for bilingualism, often against his own caucus (“On The Take” notwithstanding!)

I think John Ralston Saul is the most brilliant Canadian thinker on the scene today. Every one of his social/political books is a masterpiece. I read them all, starting with "Voltaire's Bastards".

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Zatamon ]


From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 05 November 2001 12:03 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
'lance, Mulroney consistently stood up for bilingualism, often against his own caucus

True. And when the US was supporting the Contras and blockading Nicaragua, he quickly dismissed the idea of Canada supporting it.

And he had the brass to say straightforwardly, at a NAC lobby, that if elected his government wouldn't support a pro-choice position on abortion. I admired his forthrightness and lack of waffling, though I disagreed with his actual stance.

But at this remove, none of this seems significant compared with Free Trade, though of course it was.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 05 November 2001 12:10 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*Sigh* I will hate myself in the morning.
As much as Mulroney was a precursor to Canada's drift into continentalism, Mulroney did have a principal or two for which he ought to get some credit. In particular, I am think of Apartheid. Both Thatcher and Reagan, you will recall, considered the Apartheid regime to be "democratic" and opposed sanctions. Mulroney, to his credit and Canada's, actually led in the invoking sanctions and seeking sanctions from the Common Wealth nations (which appears now to be a dead horse. Who killed it?).

If apartheid still existed today, I imagine there would be a Team Canada trade mission to Johannesburg for contract signings and the requisite photo-ops. Canadians would be gassed and beaten for daring to protest the South African regime and Chretien would appear on television to tell us that freer trade will bring more democracy to South Africa.

I agree with Zatamon. Today's leaders lack morals, ethics or any sense of value beyond the U.S. greenback. They are true business men.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 05 November 2001 12:12 AM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have read two of his biographies ("Politics of Ambition" and I forgot the title of the other one) and what comes through is a man who had strong beliefs in certain things. Unfortunately one of these things was American-style glitz and hoopla and he did enormous damage to Canadian sovereignty.

I could never forgive him for the sell out of “Free Trade” (remember his previous stand on “Sleeping with the Elephant…”?) and the damage he did to Canadian unity by coddling the separatists and putting Canada through one traumatic Constitutional circus after another. Still, the point I was trying to make, he was not what John Ralston Saul calls a buffoon like Klein, Harris and Chretien.

Still, being 'nostalgic' about Mulroney scares the shit out of me.

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Zatamon ]


From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 05 November 2001 12:18 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Me too. It is like riding the conveyor belt into the incinerator. A few feet back looks way better than where you are now.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 05 November 2001 12:24 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In particular, I am think of Apartheid. Both Thatcher and Reagan, you will recall, considered the Apartheid regime to be "democratic" and opposed sanctions. Mulroney, to his credit and Canada's, actually led in the invoking sanctions and seeking sanctions from the Common Wealth nations (which appears now to be a dead horse. Who killed it?).

Lord, I'd forgotten all about this. I used to say the left generally got beaten like a gong partly because they lacked an institutional memory -- no equivalent to the Fraser Institute (CCPA, and of course rabble, didn't exist at the time). But sometimes I think we lack a memory altogether. I do sometimes, anyway. But then I'm tired tonight.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 05 November 2001 12:30 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is sort of relevant I guess. During the Mulrony years, when his name was mentioned we'd spit on the floor. I had some of those stickers of Michael Wilson saying "I tax books". Last week I got to spend some time with Michael Wilson in his role as a mental health advocate. I found him to be pleasant, funny and a genuinly good human being. My old passion was gone.

Wingnut, the conveyor belt image makes a lot of sense today.

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: oldgoat ]


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 05 November 2001 12:31 AM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know what you mean! I spend half the time running to my bookcases, trying to remember where I had read about one thing or another. There are so many aspects to every topic, the best I can do is develop an 'understanding' and remember the most important source material where I can look things up when I need them.
From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 November 2001 02:09 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oldgoat: I still have to spit on the floor when I read Michael Wilson's name or Brian Mulroney's because of their support for the Bank of Canada's zero-inflation policy which has, well... the less said the better, but it would not be an exaggeration to say that we have become a lab experiment for monetarist economic policies de facto.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 05 November 2001 03:13 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was just the warm-up.
The next experiment involves a lot more pain.
Is anyone nostalgic for Harris yet?
Wait a year....

Seriously, though. Governments are not the cause of trouble, merely a symptom.

Have you noticed the epidemic of attention deficit disorder? Loss of memory? It's neither an anomaly nor an accident: it's deliberately engineered and it afflicts at least one generation, probably two.
Have you noticed a sudden sharp decline in literacy? Likewise. Is it related to the popular taste for violent entertainments, and is that, in turn, related to GWB's high approval rating? Oh yes.

The situation is a helluva lot more sinister than just bad voting patterns.

I think i'll do an essay on this and post it under writings - if i can remember to.

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 05 November 2001 01:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I suggest we have a elected senate with no party affilacation.

I've never met a person yet who was interested in government policy but has no political affiliation, whether it be official or unofficial.

Where are you going to find people who know enough about how government works to be able to deal with legislation, who have no opinion on political parties and fit nowhere on the political spectrum. Impossible.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 05 November 2001 03:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is still possible to have an elected senate. And the tripe-e senate was one of the more popular Reform platform issues. Just because the idea of an elected seante came from Preston doesn't neccessarily make it a terrible idea. I do not know why the NDP or Greens have yet to latch onto the idea as part of an overall electoral reform package.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
bellows
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Babbler # 747

posted 05 November 2001 04:31 PM      Profile for bellows     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You have two governments in Canada that have no party affilations. The North West Territory and Nunavut.
From: Corner Brook | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged

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