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Author Topic: NDP Justice policy
Marc
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posted 31 October 2001 02:13 AM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On thing that the NDP is often criticised about is its lack of a comprehensive justice policy. What type of policy should they have?
From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 31 October 2001 02:42 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The question is a bit too broad.
Could you list the types of justice policy available and make this multiple choice?

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 31 October 2001 12:44 PM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry...I mean things like RCMP funding, what to do with offenders (meaning should we lengthen terms of jail time for people like domestic abusers, sex offenders, murderers etc.), what to do with terrorists or accomplices of the terrorists. The NDP probably has a justice policy but we do not communicate it at all.
From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 31 October 2001 02:21 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where is Noah Evanchuk? Get him out here to this topic.
From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 October 2001 02:35 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Personally, I don't see much wrong with the criminal justice system as it is right now. It functions fairly well, all things considered. A little more oversight and accountability would be nice, but I'm pretty satisfied with how the police and the courts function, in general.

IMHO, the reason is APPEARS that the criminal justice system doesn't function is because it's overworked. We rely on it too much. If we were to invest more in other areas, like welfare, public housing, EDUCATION (guess which my pet issue is), etc, etc, there wouldn't be as many people resorting to crime, and the criminal justice system wouldn't be as overloaded as it is.

"Pay now or pay later" is one of those clichés I tend to repeat a fair bit.

Now, this doesn't mean I'm in favour of handing out dough to everyone that asks for it. What it means is that we need an efficient social safety net that reduces crime without bankrupting the system or infringing on folks' fiscal independance too much.

Also, it's worth mentioning (and might even contradict what I just wrote) that the crime rate is down at the moment, which correlates with the low unemployment rate.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
NP
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posted 31 October 2001 07:11 PM      Profile for NP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think MB has quite correctly articulated the NDP (and Social Democratic movement for that matter) policy on judicial system reform. The Social Democratic movement has always believed that crime has its roots in macro social problems, thus the only way to address crime is fight these instigators rather than individual crimes. i.e. poverty.
From: The city that rhymes with fun | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 31 October 2001 09:36 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is a very pragmatic approach. I also agree with Media Boy.
From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 31 October 2001 10:18 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
On thing that the NDP is often criticised about is its lack of a comprehensive justice policy

Comprehensive means that the NDP should have a policy on all aspects of the justice system, not just from the social spending perspective.

I think they're afraid that if they have a policy that supports police in any way they will be seen as betraying their followers. So they just remain silent.

What about anti-gang legislation? Do they think that the hells angels will be stopped by social spending?

I believe that the Hells angels prey on recipients of social spending disproportionately to the rest of society.
This isn't a knock on the recipients either. Its a cold reality that those are the areas that gangs operate in.

The NDP does not address this important issue at all.


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nonsuch
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posted 01 November 2001 01:50 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Generally, i'm with MediaBoy, too.
More specifically, i'd like to see:
- more police on the street (spending again, yea) - old-fashioned beat cops, who know their neighbourhood and whom people trust. This would be especially helpful in smaller towns, which have had their own police stations closed down, replaced by OPP in some distant place (I respect the OPP, but they're far too busy.)
- something like healing circles (grounded in the various cultures of each neighbourhood) for first offenders, petty crime and juveniles; a lot more community service and a lot less jail (This is actually a money-saving strategy: prisons are hideously expensive.)
- support for local initiatives (on the neighbourhood level in cities and on the municipal level in smaller communities) in patrolling, mentoring, activities for teens, shelters for abused women and kids (Money-saving again. It's a heck of a lot cheaper to counsel an angry 10-year-old than to capture, try and imprison a crazy 30-year-old.)
- crime prevention, which must begin with a decent standard of living and schooling for children, so they don't grow up hateful; a reasonable expectation of opportunity for young adults, so they don't lose hope
- decriminilization (or simple neglect) of victimless crimes, to free police for their original purpose: to serve and protect

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


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Markbo
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posted 01 November 2001 10:02 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All of that is good and fine, but it still doesn't deal with the realities of organized crime and the spread of the Hells Angels.
From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 01 November 2001 11:53 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
  • Nobody's suggesting (AFAIK) reducing funding for police. Policing is still a vital part of the equation. But we tend to rely on the police too much. IMHO, the police are about as effective as they're gonna be, and throwing more money at them that could be better spent elsewhere won't improve things. I'm certainly not a "fuck the police" kinda guy, but there's a limit to how much they can do.

  • How do organized crime and the Hell's Angels make money? Mostly through drug trafficking and prostitution, right? A double-pronged approach of decriminalization and improved social welfare would reduce the number of people who resort to drugs/prostitution, and would help to protect those who still end up on the street.

  • What's the socio-economic background of the average criminal biker? What makes a life of crime so appealling to most of them? Why do they feel like they have few other viable options? Addressing these kinds of questions have more potential for reducing the crime rate than throwing money at the police.

  • The power of the US mafia isn't nearly what it once was. The FBI would like to take the credit for that, but some of the credit should also go to the fact that Italian-Americans have way more socio-economic options than they used to, and suffer less discrimination nowadays. There's less need for them to resort to crime. (devil's advocate mode: How much of that success is due to social welfare programs? Maybe they just invested the money they made from crime and sent their kids to university from the proceeds.)

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 01 November 2001 06:30 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How do organized crime and the Hell's Angels make money? Mostly through drug trafficking and prostitution, right? A double-pronged approach of decriminalization and improved social welfare would reduce the number of people who resort to drugs/prostitution, and would help to protect those who still end up on the street.

If you have a drug addicted prostitute, no amount of welfare will help her.

quote:

What's the socio-economic background of the average criminal biker? What makes a life of crime so appealling to most of them?

Its the huge amounts of Cash they make. I heard they make 1 million per week in Montreal alone. Its really got nothing to do with them being disadvantaged. Last time I was in Vegas I was told they mostly walk around in armani suits.

quote:

The power of the US mafia isn't nearly what it once was. The FBI would like to take the credit for that, but some of the credit should also go to the fact that Italian-Americans have way more socio-economic options than they used to, and suffer less discrimination nowadays.

Your devils advocate role is more right. The Mafia is on the decline because they've invested most of their proceeds from crime into legitimate businesses they don't want to jeopardize. Across the river, in detroit, I hear they control all the linen cleaning businesses, In montreal its the cheese (no I have nothing to back that up and if I did I would shut up anyways). Why would you want to jeopardize those profits with drugs.

They've been replaced by the Russians, Eastern Europeans and Asian organized criminals who are far more ruthless. I don't think that if you offered them better social programs that they would really care. Its silly to think they would. These are already hardened criminals who are immigrating to Canada.

The NDP can't just put in their Justice policy book "please refer back to page...."

They need to deal with organized criminals. Especially since those criminals prey mostly on those the NDP is supposed to protect.

Give a prostitute more welfare. That just translates into giving her pimp more.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Markbo ]


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 01 November 2001 08:40 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Police are not immune to corruption, neither are politicians. There are numerous cases of politicians who inadvertently sit in as boards of directors for shell companies solely setup as fronts for laundering illegitimate money.
If there is at least one thing that the Bush Amin did right was to involve faith based groups in the treatment of some social problems such as drug addiction.

From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 01 November 2001 11:37 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also would disagree that the Mafia in its various forms is smaller now. If anything they are far more wiser and larger than they where even ten years ago. They have learned that it is far more beneficial and profitable to merge and globalize than it is to try and bump each other off. I’m not referring to biker warfare which is a much more in your face form of organized crime.
The killing of 6000 people at the WTC is a drop in the bucket compared to the lives destroyed by the underground trade in arms , drugs and prostitution.
The linen cleaning and the cheese industry are not half as lucrative as the trade in heroine. The drug addicted prostitute is social and medical fallout which society has to contend with from a multi billion dollar industry where the lines of legitimate and illegitimate money are very fuzzy at best.
Criminals don't need to immigrate to Canada when they are already here and Canadian born and bred. Some of our most prominent organized crime groups are US imports. Hells Angels, Banditos and The American Outlaw Association. These are groups that have established “global reach”. The members that aren't Canadian are being helped by the Canadian criminal members to establish links to liaison here and abroad.
I'm not sure where in the NDP policy book they have stated that they have put justice on the back page. If anything the NDP would like to see greater transparency and accountability of financial transactions to bring money laundering into the light, but I doubt the Liberal and Conservative electoral financiers would approve of such legislation.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Pimji ]


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 03 November 2001 10:07 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm not sure where in the NDP policy book they have stated that they have put justice on the back page.

Actually the point is that there is NO page regarding how to deal with organized crime.

Don't dismiss the russian mafia, eastern Europeans or asians. THeir organizations stepped in where the mafia stepped out. They are more ruthless as well. Also don't put down the cheese industry, one company grew to having sales of $4billion. Can you guess its name? I'd put its profitability up against the drug trade.

[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: Markbo ]


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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