babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » current events   » canadian politics   » Terrorist training camp in U.S.

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Terrorist training camp in U.S.
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 30 October 2001 11:28 PM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,583254,00.html

Backyard terrorism

The US has been training terrorists at a camp in Georgia for years - and it's still at it

George Monbiot Tuesday October 30, 2001 The Guardian

"If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents," George Bush announced on the day he began bombing Afghanistan, "they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril." I'm glad he said "any government", as there's one which, though it has yet to be identified as a sponsor of terrorism, requires his urgent attention.

For the past 55 years it has been running a terrorist training camp, whose victims massively outnumber the people killed by the attack on New York, the embassy bombings and the other atrocities laid, rightly or wrongly, at al-Qaida's door. The camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, or Whisc. It is based in Fort Benning, Georgia, and it is funded by Mr Bush's government.

Last year, partly as a result of the campaign run by SOA Watch, several US congressmen tried to shut the school down. They were defeated by 10 votes. Instead, the House of Representatives voted to close it and then immediately reopen it under a different name. So, just as Windscale turned into Sellafield in the hope of parrying public memory, the School of the Americas washed its hands of the past by renaming itself Whisc. As the school's Colonel Mark Morgan informed the Department of Defense just before the vote in Congress: "Some of your bosses have told us that they can't support anything with the name 'School of the Americas' on it. Our proposal addresses this concern. It changes the name." Paul Coverdell, the Georgia senator who had fought to save the school, told the papers that the changes were "basically cosmetic".

But visit Whisc's website and you'll see that the School of the Americas has been all but excised from the record. Even the page marked "History" fails to mention it.


We can't expect this terrorist training camp to reform itself: after all, it refuses even to acknowledge that it has a past, let alone to learn from it. So, given that the evidence linking the school to continuing atrocities in Latin America is rather stronger than the evidence linking the al-Qaida training camps to the attack on New York, what should we do about the "evil-doers" in Fort Benning, Georgia? Well, we could urge our governments to apply full diplomatic pressure, and to seek the extradition of the school's commanders for trial on charges of complicity in crimes against humanity...


There's lots more text with details of terrorist activity, at the above link. Amazing!!! Markbo, where are you?

Author's homepage: www.monbiot.com


From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 30 October 2001 11:36 PM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pankaj, Markbo will be here momentarily to tell you that your vicious attack on the US proves your irrational hatred for the country aimed at tearing it apart from the inside. Watch what you are saying or you will become enemy number 2.
From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 30 October 2001 11:46 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Like Gore Vidal says, "The United States of Amnesia."
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 30 October 2001 11:46 PM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zatamon, Markbo can't spin this one, can he? Is it possible? Does he have such powers? Is this building finally too tall to leap in a single bound? The suspense is killing me. Markbo, where fort art thou? Come dispense your views on this piece of news and break the suspension that we are helplessly drifting upon.
From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
PanzerLeader
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1166

posted 30 October 2001 11:58 PM      Profile for PanzerLeader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who ever said the School of Americas taught terrorist, if anything it taught South Americans how to deal with tangos. The School of Americans taught security and counter-subversion. I know guys who spent time there. No mention of such sujects, only how they don't work
What students do after they leave the school is their problem. The DOD has no control over that. It is all part of the big anti-US fanasty. Just like how CIA helped General P. into power. Some just don't want to admit the Chileans did it themselves. After all it is a South American country and coups are one thing they know how to do. The left did not defeat the coup becasue they failed to make peace with the military and security forces. A HUGE mistake in that part of world.

From: Ottawa, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 31 October 2001 12:03 AM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PL, take off your uniform, take a breather and read the piece like a civilian. Then report back at 00007788 hours.
From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 31 October 2001 12:03 AM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pankaj, Markbo does not need to spin it -- PanzerLeader did it for him.
From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 31 October 2001 12:07 AM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zatamon, PL did'nt spin it, he merely countersubterfugedfumigatedaxialrotated it. We have to be patient and wait for the master.
From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 31 October 2001 12:20 AM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pankaj, you need not wait for the master... the undisputed master of spin is Prof. Monbiot.
Here he is, in his own words (as they say on TV):
quote:
An activist guide to exploiting the Media by George Monbiot
Every battle we fight is a battle for the hearts and minds of other people. The only chance we have of reaching people who haven't yet heard what we've got to say is through the media. We might, with good reason, regard the papers and broadcasters with extreme suspicion, we might feel cheapened and compromised by engaging with them. But the war we're fighting is an information war, and we have to use all the weapons at our diposal. Whether we use the media or not, our opponents will. However just our cause and true our aims, they will use it to demonise and demolish us, unless we fight back.
EXPLOIT THE MEDIA, OR THE MEDIA WILL EXPLOIT YOU!
News doesn't just happen; it is made to happen. News, in other words, is managed and manipulated. And if we don't manage it, someone else will.

(What is presented in the linked article is NOT news; it's an opinion... Monbiot's.)


From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 31 October 2001 12:25 AM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Relogged, you must have been asleep for a couple of decades and just woken up in time to read the article. Unless you can counter what is presented in the article, your words are mush. What Monbiot states in the quote you provide is obvious to any person awake for the last 20 years; why is it special news to you. Stick with the facts brought forward in the article and we can continue speaking on this issue.
From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 31 October 2001 12:30 AM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pankaj, you win! I'll go back to sleep for the next two decades...
From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 31 October 2001 12:33 AM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
just make sure you don't snore too loudly!
From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 228

posted 31 October 2001 09:06 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For further information go to
Critique of the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Pimji ]


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 31 October 2001 09:42 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't spin this because I have no opinion on it. I won't let hindsight allow me to condemn the U.S.' action. I mean, the U.S. created many terrible people. Joe McCarthy for one. Times were very different. Fears and ignorance of other people were a lot different. We didn't have CNN and other media trying to teach us about our enemies. We just created Cartoons like Captain America fighting the Red Menace (I think that was his name)

You want to critisize the historical ignorance of different societies, The U.S. shouldn't be at the top of your list.

I am more interested in current terrorist training camps. If America currently runs any I would condemn them for it. If they support the running of one then it should be a headline article in Rabble. Currently many exist in the Middle east. Pakistan just graduated a class today, After 10 years of religious training they want to rush to fight with the Taleban.

Why was there no threads started on that subject equally with terrorist camps in the U.S. Do you people feel that your self annointed critics of the U.S. and critisizing the Middle east would take away from your cause.

I hope I didn't disappoint anybody with consistency.

If the U.S. is currently harboring training camps then it should be reported and they should cease immediately. Why don't leftist groups use the media to report this.

P.S. does anybody have any current examples of terrorist acts caused by those trained in WHISC

Is someone just angry that these groups help stop the spread of communism and other leftist groups through law enforcement?

Please, some examples of these groups committing terrorist acts would be beneficial.

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Markbo ]


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 31 October 2001 09:56 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A little more research tells me that this school may have trained south american military personel in the past in military tactics. (granted it would be possible to call this terrorism)

But now this is what I found.

quote:
The renamed school's official purpose shall be "to provide professional education and training to eligible personnel of nations of the Western Hemisphere within the context of the democratic principles set forth in the Charter of the Organization of American States ... while fostering mutual knowledge, transparency, confidence, and cooperation among the participating nations and promoting democratic values, respect for human rights, and knowledge and understanding of United States customs and traditions."

Codifying an existing school policy, the new law requires that each student receive at least eight hours of instruction in "human rights, the rule of law, due process, civilian control of the military, and the role of the military in a democratic society."

The new law allows Latin American civilians and police personnel to attend the school, and requires that the Secretary of State be consulted in the selection of students.

Courses given at the school must focus on leadership development, counter-drug operations, peace support operations[B], disaster relief, or "any other matter the Secretary [of Defense] deems appropriate." It is not clear whether this provision will require any specific changes in the school's curriculum.

The new law codifies the school's decade-old practice of inviting a [B]"Board of Visitors" to review and evaluate "curriculum, instruction, physical equipment, fiscal affairs, and academic methods." The board must include the chairmen and ranking minority members of both houses' Armed Services Committees (or surrogates), the senior Army officer responsible for training (or a surrogate), one person chosen by the Secretary of State, the head of the U.S. Southern command (or a surrogate), and six people chosen by the Secretary of Defense ("including, to the extent practicable, persons from academia and the religious and human rights communities"). The board will review the school's curriculum to determine whether it complies with U.S. laws and doctrine; and whether it is consistent with U.S. policy goals toward Latin America and the Caribbean. Within sixty days of its annual meeting, the Board must submit a report to the Secretary of Defense describing its activities and its recommendations for the "Institute."


Is this what you call terrorism. Sounds like they should be given a medal for having this school.

Other than knowing history, I don't want to live and dwell in it like many of you do. I just don't want to repeat it.

You guys and your conspiracy theories, don't you have some aliens to catch or something???

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Markbo ]


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 390

posted 31 October 2001 11:54 PM      Profile for Jake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo

Here is a link that you might want to look up for info on that training school that you seem to find so admirable.

http://www.soaw.org/

Jake


From: the recycling bin | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 01 November 2001 12:28 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It sounds like the organization is far more transparant in what it teaches now.

I believe that they have trained oppressive people in the past. I don't know what they have trained them in. I'm sure the alumni of many prestigious universities end up in jail. Does that mean the universities have trained them in crime.

The only relevant question is: Do they train terrorist tactics now?

A terrorist training camp is not defined by who attends, but what it trains them to do.

I see no evidence that this school Currently teaches any terrorist tactics.

If the transparancy suggested in my post exists then I don't see how they could teach oppression. I don't see any evidence that this transparancy does not exist.

It seems as though you want South and Central American countries to begin some new revolution. You don't want anybody quelling some new revolution. Isn't that the true motive here? That you don't like the current governments of South and Central America and would like to see them overthrown?

Hey look, I repeat, if someone offers evidence that this school teaches torture, or other violations of human rights. I am happy to join your opposition of it. I've read many pages. I'm not going to read the enitre manuals but if someone would hilight the areas where the U.S. teaches terror, I'll consider them.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Markbo ]


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 01 November 2001 01:05 AM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo, either you're naive or I'm cynical. Let's see what else surfaces next.
From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 390

posted 01 November 2001 01:05 PM      Profile for Jake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo

Quote_______________________________________________
>I see no evidence< that this school Currently teaches any terrorist tactics.

If the transparancy suggested in my post exists then >>I don't see how<< they could teach oppression.>>>I don't see any evidence<<< that this transparancy does not exist.
_____________________________________________________

Having read a whole lot of your posts (they are hard to avoid) I recognize that you “don’t see” a hell of a lot of things, particularly anything that happened earlier than Sept 11.
The posted link http://www.soaw.org/ was a small effort to improve your understanding of US history; which apparently stops after the part where Washington confessed to actually having cut down a cherry tree.

If you would care to further improve your understanding of pre Sept 11 history here’s another real page turner for you.

http://www.ncf.ca/coat/our_magazine/links/issue43/issue43.htm

Jake

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Jake ]


From: the recycling bin | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 November 2001 01:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A page-turner indeed. I just skimmed through the 1963 torture manual. It's the coolly rational voice contemplating the pros and cons of various approaches that scares me most.

Thanks for the link, Jake.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
JCL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1387

posted 01 November 2001 03:57 PM      Profile for JCL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo, you should be in politics. I'd vote for you.

PanzerLeader - Great comments. I agree with you. What students do after that is no longer the responsibilty of the US. Here's another point. If the US is guilty of this, wouldn't they also be on the hook for students from overseas who study in American and Canadian universities? And when they go back to their native country, they use what the learned in US & Canadian universities for the wrong reasons? Nope. One can easily use that argument about the so called US terrorist training camp and say the flight schools that taught Atta and the boys to fly planes should be shut down or arrested and charged with the WTC attacks.


From: Winnipeg. 35 days to Christmas yet no snow here. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 690

posted 01 November 2001 04:37 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I believe that they have trained oppressive people in the past. I don't know what they have trained them in. I'm sure the alumni of many prestigious universities end up in jail. Does that mean the universities have trained them in crime.

Then why is the U.S. bombing camps in Afghanistan? The way I read the situation, the al Qaeda network picks the top recruits from these camps (which might not be right, but it has been alluded to in the media). So, if these camps are just training soldiers, why should the U.S. be bombing them because it isn’t their fault what the recruits do afterwards. Right? You can’t hold a country like Afghanistan liable for what some people do inside the country. Right?

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
JCL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1387

posted 01 November 2001 04:42 PM      Profile for JCL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, you're right, clockwork. We really should stop being critical of the Taliban of stripping away womens rights, growing opium to make money in the drug trade to finance their military, instilling fear into the people they claim to represent and assasinating opposition political leaders. I think we should take an isolationist view of the world and just worry about our own country. The hell with the rest of society, right?
From: Winnipeg. 35 days to Christmas yet no snow here. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 01 November 2001 04:44 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
you “don’t see” a hell of a lot of things, particularly anything that happened earlier than Sept 11.

Here's the thing. We're not on the opposite side here. No one here really expects the U.S. gets on its hands and knees and beg forgiveness for any perceived transgression. I don't think they have to do this to ensure future U.S. policy doesn't provoke terrorism.
If thats what you expect from them to make the world better than give up. Your efforts are futile. However, the U.S. is infinitely more responsible and responsive to accusations of supporting human rights abuses NOW.

We both want the same thing. No one wants the U.S. to train anybody in torture techniques or any of the other accusations you make of this school. We're on the same side in this matter.

The fact is that south and Latin American countries have improved their human rights records dramatically. I am not suggesting that they're record is anywhere near perfect.

quote:

If you would care to further improve your understanding of pre Sept 11 history here’s another real page turner for you.

Maybe it is you who should look at the histories of the countries that the U.S. is having disputes with. I am aware of U.S. history, other than repeating it, I don't think its relevant here.

This school taught some former people who have committed human rights abuses. THe important thing is that it doesn't train people HOW to commit human rights abuses.

I still think the real motive here is to take away all support from south and central american countries so that communist revolutions can take place.

Give it up.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 01 November 2001 04:45 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ahh ya know they've been doing this for a long time. Even Jay Leno's wife has been trying to raise awareness of the situation of women there. It's only since Sept. though that anyone gives a damn. Truthfully they probably still don't, but it makes for a good read when explaining why your bombing a country with no real justification.
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 01 November 2001 04:58 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
why your bombing a country with no real justification.

Harboring terrorists and terrorist training camps. Terrorists who had no justification to kill 5000 innocent people on Sept. 11. I'll keep reminding you of the facts when you forget.

Yes, their treatment of Women, people, culture and art are not the main reasons for our attack. They just show how subhuman these animals really are. They just show everybody how impossible it is to reason or negotiate with the Taleban. How do you negotiate with fanatics. With brutal people that can't recognize the cultural significance of 1000 year old statues. Or that cannot recognize that women shouldn't be treated like slaves.

It shows how they have no value for human life. That the only language they understand is violence. That the U.S. couldn't achieve its goals of stopping taleban support of terrorism by any other means.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 690

posted 01 November 2001 05:06 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your right earthmother. Awhile back, I posted a bunch of references about the Afghan drug trade, about the plight of woman there and what not, some coming from leftwing, Taliban loving womens rights journals. It’s funny how pre-Sept 11, they couldn’t get their point across and no one cared. Post Sept 11., all these left wing lunatics are now Neville Chamberlains and apologists for a tyrannical regime.

edited to add:Hey, speaking of which...

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 01 November 2001 06:22 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I also, posted awhile back Pre-Sept 11 about some of these problems in a discussion regarding Islam.

Most people became fully informed about the brutality and ignorance of the taleban when the standing buddhas were destroyed. (At the time, I actually purchased a very small standing buddha from 400ad, I figured they didn't destroy this one) The CNN special also educated a lot of people to their ignorance.

You cannot dismiss my concern regarding this because My concern existed pre Sept 11.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 690

posted 01 November 2001 06:36 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I’m not dismissing your concern. I don’t like the Taliban either. I can’t ever remember saying (nor can I remember anyone else on this site saying) that they like the Taliban. I don’t remember your Buddha blowing discussion but I thought that act was pretty dumb act too.
And I’ve pointed out that the same types of people are in control of Saudi Arabia as well. Pakistan is no friend either. Dictators here, dictators there, I can’t keep track of which one is friend and which one is foe at any given moment.
Anyway, I think we had this discussion before.

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 01 November 2001 07:05 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah but the entire world begged the Taleban not to blow up those statues. They offered them money, aid anything they wanted. It just goes to show that they won't respond to anything we offer. They'll only respond to violence.
From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 228

posted 01 November 2001 07:36 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They are a result of men's addiction and culture of violence.
From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
JCL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1387

posted 01 November 2001 08:15 PM      Profile for JCL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah but the entire world begged the Taleban not to blow up those statues. They offered them money, aid anything they wanted. It just goes to show that they won't respond to anything we offer. They'll only respond to violence.

Markbo, rabble on dude. Why do a few people think the Taliban should be dealt with diplomatically? I heard about the Taliban in late 1996, early 1997. I've been well aware of what they've been dong since then. Countries have been trying and trying and trying to diplomatically deal with them. Yet they do not respond diplomatically. The buddha statues is a good example what kind of mind set the Taliban is. They'll blow up or attack anything that goes against their thinking. They have no respect for civil liberties nor can they accept the fact that not everyone in the world doesn't believe in their religion.

On CNN's site, I read this article that publishedBin Laden's letter to Al Jazzera news network. Bin Laden clearly points out that the terrorist attacks isn't about "US foreign policy" that they claim it is. It's a smokescreen for what it really is. And in the letter it states,

quote:
The letter, written in Arabic and directed to "My Muslim brothers in the clean land of Pakistan, civilians and military," said the killing of Muslims by U.S. forces has divided the world into two groups -- those under the Christian banner led by U.S. President Bush and those under the Muslim banner.

This is not about US foreign policy. This is a religious war started by Bin Laden. The Taliban, so fundamentally Islamic, regard any other religion as a false religion. The destruction of the Buddhist staues is one example. In a 1998 interview, Bin Laden told an Arab journalist that he intends to start a war with the US. And he knew how he could do it. The WTC attack and the Pentagon were prime examples. The attacks would force the US into a catch 22. The US could have chose NOT to respond. But the people would want retaliatory action. So they had to take action.

So why not direct some of your outrage at the pepetrators called the Taliban. Or is the left too scared to publically condemn the Taliban in fear of their own lives just like the Afghani people that the Taliban oppresses? It's easy to condemn a government that protects you and allows you to speak your mind. But it's not so easy to criticize a government like the Taliban that operates without laws and have no regard for freedom or of civil liberties.


From: Winnipeg. 35 days to Christmas yet no snow here. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 390

posted 02 November 2001 12:18 AM      Profile for Jake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo

World class super troll!

quote:

If you would care to further improve your understanding of pre Sept 11 history here’s
another real page turner for you.


Maybe it is you who should look at the histories of the countries that the U.S. is having disputes with. I am aware of U.S. history, other than repeating it, I don't think its relevant here.

This school taught some former people who have committed human rights abuses. THe important
thing is that it doesn't train people HOW to commit human rights abuses.

As usual M you obviously didn't look into either of links provided. After all this time I don't know why I thought you would.

BUT if you had you would have seen ample evidence that this school was training their students EXACTLY HOW to do those things.

Now I can just see your response asking me to show examples etc. M baby just take some time peruse those links. it's right there for you to read. Do the homework yourself.

Well yeah, that IS tiresome, and who has time for that eh?

Bye Bye Markbo

Jake


From: the recycling bin | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
machiavellian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1365

posted 02 November 2001 05:38 AM      Profile for machiavellian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is Questioning War Naive?
From: Peace River (no, not actually in the river, silly) | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
machiavellian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1365

posted 02 November 2001 06:02 AM      Profile for machiavellian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
M - "The only thing they understand is violence" - yes, that makes a lot of sense, considering it didn't work for Russia, considering blowing up a country already on the brink of starvation will most certainly only generate more hatred of America and recruit more people to bin Laden's militant cause. Please, don't spout the propaganda machine's Orwellian soundbites at us as if they were some kind of reasoned argument.

As for training camps - let's not forget "the Farm" in Virginia, or training in Scotland, mentioned here along with more info on US involvement:
Blowback chronicles

And Markbo, why does it matter whether the States are training terrorists RIGHT at this moment? Seems to me that the current crisis would be the result of previous training. I can't believe that you are this short-sighted so my opinion is that you are desperately trying to rationalize - ie if they aren't doing it now, we can forgive what happened in the past (although that rationalization is a little desperate - are we getting to you on this one?)

Of course they're doing it now.

Now more than ever. And the CIA is even trying to expand its powers to allow the agency to recruit people who have committed human rights atrocities. Not just training terrorists, but working with them, actively recruiting them (and the message direct to you from obvious land is that the Northern Alliance is a group of terrorists just as bad as the Taliban).
Unleash the CIA???!!!

Oh yes, the States are the good guys, just in it to help the world. Excuse me, but I can't help but start laughing hysterically at that one.

Finally, perhaps you had better read a little bit about the American propaganda machine, as I think you have been a product of it.
Part 1
Part 2


From: Peace River (no, not actually in the river, silly) | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 02 November 2001 10:44 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are some good points being raised here on either side of this argument. Although the links are a lot to digest over the course of a day or two, they are well worth the read.

Things in the past have to be addressed and mistakes corrected even though it will not change the current atmosphere, it needs doing.

As well we need to address the current situation and bring to a close the bombing in Afghanistan and the assaults on the U.S. and elsewhere. To get this job done, it will require military force to bring to justice those responsible for 9/11 and other acts of terrorism and prevent these things from happening again and again.

The Taliban and their ability to host terrorist groups have to go and to everyone's misfortune, they won't go without a fight. This is why the only option is to use NATO forces to bring that about. We have seen the blowback of arming and training our enemies enemies so the responsibility falls to NATO to clean this up. It is messy and civilians on all sides will die.

The method is by far not the best method, but so far it is the only option that will lead to an outcome close to what we want.

Changing policy is a must but it will not have an immediate affect on reducing terrorist activities.

It seems to me, and this is just personal opinion, that we share the same morals (believe it or not) in that we strongly believe that it is our responsibility to stand up and not allow for innocent people to be harmed. I see this everytime someone denounces the bombing of Afghanistan and everytime a plane drops a bomb on Afghanistan. The bombs are part of an effort to harm and in so doing protect innocent Americans and other people around the world from those who would harm them to make their point heard.

The same emotions are displayed when innocent people are harmed due to a bomb hitting near them in Afghanistan. I am positive that some kid somewhere in Afghanistan is dead only because they were where they were. They didn't do a single thing to cause harm to anyone. Just like some kid that was in the WTC when the planes hit them.

Osama bin Laden is, and I think everyone agrees, a man who will hurt innocent people and will not be reasoned out of doing these things. More so he will teach others that the only solution to the problems faced in the Mideast, is using violence. Some might say the same about leaders in the West. But I think the difference is our ability to investigate and bring to justice our leaders who violate human rights. Granted there are times when we can't seem to do just that due to the loop holes in our legal system. One more thing in a long list to fix.

But bin Laden, works outside those constraints. There is no system in Afghanistan to bring him to justice. He is the guest of the Taliban and due to his help in the past to secure their grip on Afghanistan, he will be protected from those who want to have him answer for his actions.

Terrorists aren't created over night. It is a long and difficult road to get to the point that someone would spend a few years in training and then take the risk of getting into a number of countries illegally and finally getting into a position to deal a lethal blow to a nation on the scale of 9/11.

Changing those minds is not something we are able to do, but changing the policies that help to bring someone to the mindset that allows them to do such a thing is. It won't be easy and there will be things that we have to give up in order to make that happen. I guess in the long run it will be worth it to live in peace. But we have to understand that it will be a long proccess.

I think everyone understands that those who want to punish others for past indiscretions will have to go. On bothsides. But who puts down the gun first? I think it is unreasonable to expect the U.S. to disarm and halt all aggressions against those who are enemies of the country without showing some viable way to have those enemies do the same thing. Should the threat of terrorism and war be removed from the world then there is little need for the war machine that is part of NATO and this includes America.

I think that as a people Americans are peace loving and would accept the idea that there was reason to put the defences away if there was no longer a threat. As we have seen with the end of the coldwar, both the U.S. and Russia have been reducing their nuclear weapons and wish to go further. I would imagine that should Russia rid themselves of all nuclear weapons and the rest of the world followed suit, the U.S. would have a very difficult time arguing against doing the same especially if there is some effective and worldwide acceptable way to varify that all countries have really gotten rid of the nukes and the ability to rapidly produce more.

Untill there is an effective way other than military action to get all countries to live peacefully with their neighbours and other countries around the world, we can't convience anyone not to have a military.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 02 November 2001 10:47 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The accession in the US of President George W Bush... may shed yet fresh light on at least two central mysteries of the Taliban ... The first is the extent to which the administration of Bill Clinton actively encouraged its former cold war allies, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, to assemble and finance a tribal military force to end the misrule of the mojahedin in the post-Soviet years. The second - of greater sensitivity - is to provide a coherent explanation for the studied incompetence of the FBI, CIA and other American intelligence agencies in addressing the alleged threats posed to the US by Osama bin Laden and his network. Bush's links with the US energy industry, most notably Unocal, are, regrettably, more likely to restrict the current state of knowledge about US policy in Afghanistan in the late 1990s, than to enlarge it."

Excellent links, mach, especially that one.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 02 November 2001 11:37 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As usual M you obviously didn't look into either of links provided. After all this time I don't know why I thought you would.

I read the links. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I didn't read them.
Whats with the "troll" calling. Who the f*** are you to start name calling. Did you read my quote, it seems you can dismiss one link as lies with no evidence while another is truth. What is important is that they don't train groups how to commit human rights abuses now. Having foreign military and police train in the U.S. seems to be a way for them to see how people are treated in America.

quote:

BUT if you had you would have seen ample evidence that this school was training their students EXACTLY HOW to do those things.

No it taught them how to prevent having their government overthrown. That seems to be your objection. In fact they got to see how the American Military and police have to treat Americans in a conflict by spending time here.
Was this school used to train human rights abusers in the past. Sure.

Does it train them now? Who knows, you can't predict what your alumni will turn out to be

Does it train them how to abuse human rights? I think not. There is no evidence that the current curriculim or school promotes human rights abuses. I can go through all the links you want me to but there's no evidence of this.

Maybe your the world class troll

quote:

considering blowing up a country already on the brink of starvation will most certainly only generate more hatred of America and recruit more people to bin Laden's militant cause.

Thats why its so important that the military action is accompanied by the aid they're receiving. Thats why its so important that they start shipping in more aid when they get a supply route..

quote:

Please, don't spout the propaganda machine's Orwellian soundbites at us as if they were some kind of reasoned argument.

Why don't you stop spouting the anti-american propaganda as if it has some kind of legitimacy now.

quote:

And Markbo, why does it matter whether the States are training terrorists RIGHT at this moment?

Because if they're not then the school has a good purpose. To bring those military and police personel to the U.S. so they can see how people should be treated in a democracy.

Its not a matter of forgiving this schools past. Its a matter of seeing if this school serves some purpose now. Why wouldn't you want to train police and military personell in the U.S.? Why wouldn't you want to show them life in a democracy??

quote:

Of course they're doing it now.

Of course you have absolutely no evidence of that. My only response is "of course they're not doing it now". THere you've been trumped. Stamped it, put it in the mailbox.
Is that the level we're at.

quote:

Oh yes, the States are the good guys, just in it to help the world. Excuse me, but I can't help but start laughing hysterically at that one.

Your right to laugh hysterically if you think that the U.S. is the bad guys and the Taleban are the good guys. Otherwise, name a country that has given more aid to other countries. Helped more people.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 390

posted 02 November 2001 12:12 PM      Profile for Jake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Markbo!!!

quote:
As usual M you obviously didn't look into either of links provided. After all this time I don't know why I thought you would.

I read the links. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I didn't read them.
Whats with the "troll" calling. Who the f*** are you to start name calling. Did you read my quote, it seems you can dismiss one link as lies with no evidence while another is truth. What is important is that they don't train groups how to commit human rights abuses now. Having foreign military and police train in the U.S. seems to be a way for them to see how people are treated in America.

quote:
BUT if you had you would have seen ample evidence that this school was training their students EXACTLY HOW to do those things.

No it taught them how to prevent having their government overthrown. That seems to be your
objection.

No M It did in fact teach them HOW TO overthrow their OWN GOVERNMENTS.

You have the most wonderful Knack of turning statements around. In 1984 it was called "Newspeak" I believe.

Bye Bye M

Jake

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Jake ]


From: the recycling bin | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
NDB
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1234

posted 02 November 2001 12:17 PM      Profile for NDB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slick - I thought your post was very thoughtful, and I welcome the contribution and the effort to save this thread from the toilet. Given past disagreements I'm sorry to say I am struggling a bit with this new found feeling (no offense intended, just a little good natured ribbing).

I have a question for you - do you think the current military actions are ultimately going to lead the world closer to laying down arms? How?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 02 November 2001 12:39 PM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Friday November 2, 2001 The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,585296,00.html

During my military service in Latin America, I made a discovery which I was supposed to keep secret, according to the tough secrecy codes of the Brazilian army. The commandant of my regiment suddenly disappeared and we discovered that he had gone to the School of the Americas, Georgia, USA, to learn how to apply electric shocks to political activists and organise a possible coup d'etat back home (Backyard terrorism, October 30).

When the US-instigated and sponsored coup against the democratically-elected president came, he was there at the forefront of it. The results of that coup were calamitous: besides the thousands of young people who were assassinated or "disappeared" during the early years of the dictatorship, today there are 6.5m violent, starving, drug-addicted, abandoned street children, very probably the direct result of the violent annihilation of the modern, peaceful, movement for economic, social and land reform.

How can we easily support a hypocritical one-sided attack by the US government against "uncivilised" Bin Laden's terrorist training camps when blood has been running in many parts of the world as a result of America's own terrorist training camps? No direct or indirect victim of US policies has the moral obligation to feel sorry for the attacks on the US, however shocked we all feel.

This massive, western one-sided propaganda against terrorism is a bad joke for millions of dispossessed people around the world, the very people we need to bring to our side, the people among whom terrorism finds such a fertile ground.

The suicidal combination of hypocrisy and superman mentality is missing the point squarely: those of us in non-privileged countries may be poor but we are not naive or lacking in principles. Maybe it is the first world which needs educating and civilising, after all.
Claudio Solano
London
cl@udio.demon.co.uk


From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 390

posted 02 November 2001 12:51 PM      Profile for Jake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
machiavellian

Thanks for your post above with the excellent links I have bookmarked them for later rereading and copying excerpts to my Clippings file for future reference.

Jake


From: the recycling bin | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 02 November 2001 01:01 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you think that this school currently teaches people how to apply electric shocks?

Without any evidence of this There's no point in discussing it.

You simply want to see the current governments in Latin and South America overthrown. You want to see a cuba style revolution.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
NDB
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1234

posted 02 November 2001 01:14 PM      Profile for NDB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Without any evidence of this There's no point in discussing it.

Why not? Your temporal obssesion is strange - apparently no "past as prologue" for you.

quote:
You simply want to see the current governments in Latin and South America overthrown. You want to see a cuba style revolution.

What?

From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 390

posted 02 November 2001 01:20 PM      Profile for Jake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slick W

>>>Untill there is an effective way other than military action to get all countries to live peacefully with their neighbours and other countries around the world, we can't convience anyone not to have a military. <<<<

Yes, I'm sure that the majority of reasonable people will agree that the most effective way of "getting all countries to live peacefully with their neighbours" is to set an example by bombing the shit out of those countries have different opinions on the way things might be organized in the world.

Jake


From: the recycling bin | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1040

posted 02 November 2001 01:21 PM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo, I assure you I quite like it in Canada, otherwise I would just move to Cuba. I don't know how you've come to believe that the U.S. has wholesale changed its tactics? Anyhow, the evidence you want is in the original link, read the portion on Colombia but I grant you that you will have to add 2 and 2 to make 4. Use your worldiness and don't give in to naivete or wishful thinking. While the U.S. has many good points, it does most assuredly has its shadow.
From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 02 November 2001 02:22 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have a question for you - do you think the current military actions are ultimately going to lead the world closer to laying down arms? How?

Well as you and I know there isn't one thing that will make that happen. It will have to be a great number of small and large changes and adjustments that will, in the end, put us on the right path. First thing though is we have to disable the immediate threat. This means rounding up terrorists to the best of our ability. Some countries can do this on their own while other countries like Afghanistan have no chance of rounding them up and placing them in custody so that they can't harm anyone. This is where NATO comes in.

To round up the terrorists in Afghanistan it will take ground forces to go among the people and either arrest those who are wanted or should it come down to it, killing them.
Those hardcore terrorists will not stop so this is the only solution. I know it is not a good one and I know it has plenty of faults.
But still the fact remains that push has come to shove.

I think it is fair to say that America as a nation is paranoid. This is one of the stumbling blocks and the only way to address this is addressing the threats that cause America and other countries around the world to become fearful. To say that America should stop being a bully and so on, as true as that may be, won't help till there is enough world peace to take away the "we need to protect ourselves and our interests" card.

Looking at the big picture there are fewer "superpower" threats than there were. China and the U.S. are coming closer together on a number of things by meeting and talking about the things that have the capability of making life in both countries better than it is now. Same with Russia.

Now that our attention is not being taken up with a cold war, we can look around and see what else is going on. All these little hostilities that have been raging away all these years are now getting the attention and so have heated up.

So like a trip around the world, you have to make some stops along the way. Getting to the solution will mean that we have to do some things to bring that solution within our grasp. We have to bomb Afghanistan to make it safer for ground troops. We need them to arrest those who want to continue the hostilities. This will happen in other countries. It will create more hatred but more so it will allow for a country otherwise oppressed to take the chance on picking their own government and representitives who will go about the work of bringing peace and a comfortable lifestyle to their homeland.
Even should the people honestly and fairly choose to elect the Taliban or something like them. It will be their choice to live with.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 02 November 2001 02:31 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, I'm sure that the majority of reasonable people will agree that the most effective way of "getting all countries to live peacefully with their neighbours" is to set an example by bombing the shit out of those countries have different opinions on the way things might be organized in the
world

Hey Jake, if someone is of the opinion that they can use violence to force me to accept their way of doing things then they can have a taste of me using violence to force them to accept my way of doing things. Same rules right?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 03 November 2001 10:03 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, I'm sure that the majority of reasonable people will agree that the most effective way of "getting all countries to live peacefully with their neighbours" is to set an example by bombing the shit out of those countries have different opinions on the way things might be organized in the world.

Only when that opinion of how things might be organized is to organize Israel and non muslims of the face of the map.

They also bring it on themselves when they "reorganized" the Manhattan skyline.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1394

posted 03 November 2001 10:27 AM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is not all bad, there is the generosity, the giving, the fun...
From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 03 November 2001 10:28 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 03 November 2001 10:36 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca