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Author Topic: Does the Third World need the First World?
Pimji
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posted 19 October 2001 11:31 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I follow very closely the news from Cambodia. The WTC bombings as well as the fallout have barely graced the pages. They have other pressing concerns. Aids, corruption, debt, flooding, deforestation, lawlessness and more corruption.
The west has exported many ideals to the east both positive and negative, however the negative forces have cost civilians dearly. Colonization dating back to the previous two centuries by Europeans, the Indo china war and its brutal fallout for South East Asia.
Then we have the South American Continent and of coarse the Middle East.
What would happen if the First world collapsed? The IMF and the World bank disappeared and the stock market died. These institutions benefit many. If they were to vanish would many more not even notice, get better or get worse?
What other institutions would be more beneficial? United Nations, International Criminal Court?
Perhaps the large monetary institutions remain. Who is in charge? Who should be in charge? Is there a globalized charter of Rights and Freedoms that is paramount?

I would like to hear ideas as opposed to a debate or argument as boring as it may be, and as short as the boredom will make this thread, that is fine with me. Remember at one time people believed the earth was flat. It wasn't until someone came up with idea to take the chance and sail out to the horizon.

[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Pimji ]


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 20 October 2001 12:05 AM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well despite what many others might argue (Oops!) democracy would not be forgotten. After all, it is Porto Allegre, a "third world" city that has the best example of democracy on earth that I know of. There are also several democracies in Africa (Namibia, South Africa...), South America (Brazil, Guyana...), and there are still a few in Asia (India, Bangladesh...).

Most of the places mentioned in brackets have better systems than we in Canada, a "first world" nation do.


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Zatamon
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posted 20 October 2001 12:09 AM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe then it would not be so unrealistic to expect something like what was described in the "Suggestions to the Federal Cabinet" Thread in Politics. (Never mind me, it is late and I am already dreaming!)

[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: Zatamon ]


From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 20 October 2001 01:23 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What would happen?
Quite a lot - much of it bad; much of it good; all of it different.
Some countries would redraw their borders, either by negotiation or by war - lots and lots of loacal wars (remember, even if the West went away, the weapons we've dumped on people would remain.)
Some democracies, some kingdoms, some oligarchies, some feudal states, quite a few religious states, some communes, maybe even the odd matriarchy.
In short, people would experiment: combine their traditions with what they had learned. They would make some awful messes and some brilliant successes. They would evolve in their disparate ways.
They wouldn't become better, necessarily, just more various.

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
JCL
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posted 20 October 2001 01:38 AM      Profile for JCL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are wars being fought all over the place. Most of them don't make news because they're just fighting it out between each other. What about the Tamil and their fight with India? They've been skirmishing for years. Seems like in Africa, there are a few civil wars going on at any one time.
From: Winnipeg. 35 days to Christmas yet no snow here. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 20 October 2001 01:38 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for editing Pimji. I will try to be polite.

If you want to blame the first world for the plight of the third world. I think you have to lay all the blame on British colonialism.
But that doesn't really help anybody. Plus, how could you expect people to understand what we do now, hundred of years ago.


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Pimji
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posted 20 October 2001 03:02 AM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I’m not blaming the first world for the plight of the Third world. Blame gets everyone nowhere fast. I’m looking at globalization as objectively as possible. What are positive out comes and what are negative out comes. Yes colonialism has caused much catastrophe. It is good that we can see this now when humans couldn't see it then. What to do next? The thread topic is very broad. Perhaps to broad. Setting aside right and left. I believe it is imperative that people be headed towards a utopia here on earth as improbable and impossible as it may be. It gives humanity a chance to shoot for something better other than the reality of the moment or a chance to try something different and not leave it all up to fate.

Take the fear of terrorism for example. I’ll admit I can feel it but it is only in my head and not in my physical reality. I don’t have to respond to it. In fact responding is precisely what we are supposed to do. It is an exercise in social engineering by whichever terrorist group. We are supposed to react and mistrust our neighbour, better yet start shooting at him. I don’t look to someone to make me feel better. I personally am not looking to the Governments of the world. Most of whom I would not have trusted to help me walk across the road prior to Sept 11. So why would a person start now?

It is worth looking at the cause and effect of human suffering objectively, without blame. It never will end however it is imperative that we come out of this escalating level of violence. We will be okay but what about them. Should we care? Leave it up to Darwin? Even in paradise people die.

Canada for example is a very safe place to live for most. A place where millions have come to make a better life for their children and at 100 years old it is still a baby and has not had to endure the many anxieties that the US has had to fight. Race riots, civil war, slavery etc. The US too has produced modern wonders including working market economy. However some of it has gotten way out of kilter when it deprives countries and their people from basic needs of safety, food and water when these necessities have been available in the past. There does need to be limits. Nobody wants a Love Canal or Sydney Tar pond in their back yard. This goes for the rest of the world too. If the first world market economy collapsed many people wouldn’t notice for the simple fact that they aren’t participating.

Globalization is here but on whose terms? Where is the accountability or at the very least the truth delivered by an impartial third party?

Call me utopian but I believe it is possible to supply the needs of the worlds population with food shelter and water without compromising a good quality of life, in the first world.. I think the 1st world would love to turn back the clock by a month but there is a great contingent that is very happy with the present situation and would like it to quicken.

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Pimji ]


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 20 October 2001 10:12 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, Your a utopian

Seriously, I agree with you about what our goals should be. I just think we need to defend ourselves as well. U.N. aid workers should not be arrested when they go to other countries.

If we have an obligation to feed the world. They have an obligation not to shoot at us while when we try.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 20 October 2001 07:20 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is preventing Canada from pursuing an International Criminal Court? This question is for the general audience. I'm hopefully inviting further disussion from others in my boring and probably dead end disussion. Where are we with this? If anyone can provide links or information, please do.
Human rights Watch
Rome Statute of the international Criminal Court

more to come...

[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: Pimji ]

[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: Pimji ]


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 21 October 2001 12:54 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Canada has signed on to the international criminal court.

I am also a supporter of it, however, not in its present form. I do believe it is subject to prosecutorial abuse. I keep thinking about Clintons lengthy investigation by the special prosecutor.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 21 October 2001 03:20 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada has signed on and is one of the leading proponents. The ICC all be it imperfect is very much in its infancy.
Cambodia is having problems with UN involvement. This is probably due to the fact that Prime Minister Hun Sen was a former KR member. The Cambodian Peoples Party is also viewed to have come into power by a military coup in '97. Not to mention the fact that the relationship between the UN and Cambodia has never been all that good. I thyink the UN even allowed the KR a seat at the UN during its brutal riegn.

Provisions are being made to maintain the integrity of the ICC.
The court is designed with numerous safeguards to protect the rights of the accused and guarantee the highest standards of due process. Under the court's "complementarity" provisions, the U.S. government can ensure that no American ever be prosecuted before the court, by conducting good-faith investigations - and prosecutions, if necessary - of any US citizens who might commit such terrible crimes. Richard Dicker
Director of the International Justice Program at Human Rights Watch.


At the very least an ICC would let the world know that crimes against humanity will not go unnoticed and without consequences. This is in my view a very positive aspect of globalization.


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 21 October 2001 03:40 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then we have the South American Continent and of coarse the Middle East.
What would happen if the First world collapsed? The IMF and the World bank disappeared and the stock market died. These institutions benefit many. If they were to vanish would many more not even notice, get better or get worse?

I've barely begun to formulate my thoughts on this, but here's a start.

Just economically, a First World collapse could be very bad, in the first instance, for the Third World, because demand for the cash crops many countries still produce would dry up. And of course, many countries have also turned to industrial production for the export market.

At the same time, I can't help but think of a comment about Africa I read a few years ago. The writer talked about how, for most Westerners, the crumbling, chaotic state of African cities was proof that Africa was in a terrible state, that it didn' "work."

But the writer pointed out that much of this city infrastructure was built by Europeans during colonial times, and had little impact on the everyday lives of many Africans, which continued much as before. He said this slow collapse was not a failure of Africa, but of Europe in Africa.

Sounds a bit Pollyanna-ish, but thought-provoking.

Pimji, may I make a suggestion? Your posts are excellent, but would be easier to read were you to break them up into paragraphs (I'm thinking of the second one this thread).

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 21 October 2001 06:36 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Done. Fingers a flyin' across the keyboard, checking for spelling, and forgetting to format. Makes the old eyeballs go snakey.

To address the concerns of prosecutorial abuse
The Washington Post, July 9, 2001 The ICC: An Alliance for Justice By Tom Malinowski
"As for the danger of political prosecutions of Americans, it certainly exists in a world in which many resent America's power. But those targeting the United States are not likely to make the ICC their instrument. The ICC will cover only the most egregious international crimes, defined in ways corresponding closely to the U.S. military code of justice. It will have no independent arrest authority. For alleged crimes on U.S. soil, the ICC will have jurisdiction only if the United States ratifies the treaty, which is unlikely until the court has a track record. If a U.S. service member overseas were accused of a war crime, the ICC would be forbidden to exercise jurisdiction if the United States launched a good-faith investigation, something the United States is committed to do as a matter of policy."

I agree 'lance there would be a major disaster for the third world, for millions of people who have been able to participate in the current monetary structure, if the First World came to a crashing halt. Much the same way the fall of the USSR despite it major short coming had a very disastrous effect on many parts of the world. Even under military rule when the lid comes ancient grievances become exacerbated. Re: Yugoslavia. The change to democracy has not been a easy one road to take for some nations. I would be interested to see what the living conditions in Cuba would be if the embargo was removed. I’m not saying communism or democracy good or bad. I’m wondering about quality of life, something which I also believe needs to have a measuring stick.


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jahangir
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posted 31 October 2001 11:04 AM      Profile for Jahangir     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Listen, Why buy into this psycho-babble about First and Third Worlds?
Why, Why, Why?
Lets just call a bloody spade a spade.
WHITE countries.
Non-White countries.Screw the niceties.
Period!
Whites enjoy the economic abundance of the planet.
Non-Whites do not!
What would happen if the roles were reversed.
Tell you what many whites fear!
That non-whites would perpetrate the same horrors that were visited on them.
Would it happen?
Absolutely not!
Why not? Because of the degree of civilization those countries posess.

From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 October 2001 11:30 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
This is racist hate-speak, and prohibited by the babble user agreement. Audra?
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 31 October 2001 11:50 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He's got a point, though. In general the wealthiest nations have people with a light skin tone.

There's an obscure novel I heard about that presupposes a rapid ice age on Earth, forcing North Americans, Europeans and Australians to move closer to the tropics, causing the nations previously held in economic subjugation or sway to gain the upper hand.

So the novel really explores the question of "What happens when whites become the underclass?"


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
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posted 31 October 2001 12:08 PM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This white, non-white language is dangerous. The first-world, third-world language is not perfect either, but less dangerous.

There are plenty of white persons who are just and compassionate, so don't lump them all together. Also, there are plenty of non-white assholes. Jehangir, take it easy with your generalizations, lest you make enemies of your friends and friends of your foes.

A common humanity divided along many lines. These lines need only be as rigid as the mind allows. We have a choice in that.

quote:
That non-whites would perpetrate the same horrors that were visited on them.
Would it happen?
Absolutely not!
Why not? Because of the degree of civilization those countries posess.

Bullshit! What about the non-white elites in their own countries. Are they greedy just like everywhere else or are their own underclasses well fed? Can't blame everything on colonization and the whites. In many third world countries, there are deep divides between classes, castes, the sexes; these weren't created by the whites. Human nature and human enculturation can answer for much of this stuff.

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Pankaj ]


From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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Babbler # 124

posted 31 October 2001 12:59 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Non-White countries.Screw the niceties.
Period!
Whites enjoy the economic abundance of the planet.
Non-Whites do not!

Great, by your logic the U.S. need not be criticized since the majority of its population is non white.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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Babbler # 554

posted 31 October 2001 02:07 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I hate to nit-pick [insert hysterical laughter here at my expense], but according to the CIA World Factbook:

quote:
Ethnic groups: white 83.5%, black 12.4%, Asian 3.3%, Amerindian 0.8% (1992)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

I suppose it's possible that whites could be knocked down to less than 50% of the population since 1992, but it's pretty improbable.

Also, this kinda skews the statistics:

quote:
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (especially of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)

Also, Spain and Portugal were pretty bloody colonialists. Do we consider Spanish and Portuguese people to be "white"? I honestly don't know. I suppose it depends on one's point of view.

Ideas keep jumping into my head: The Dutch were pretty colonialistic at one point. Nowadays, the Netherlands is considered one of the grooviest countries around.

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
saskzen
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posted 04 November 2001 04:46 AM      Profile for saskzen     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The question is really does the West need the Third World. I have an idea that very quickly an Iron Curtain is going to go up for immigration into the West
From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 04 November 2001 08:34 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course the west neads the third world, HOw else are we going to get child and forced labour so that we can be provided with cheap and plentiful things unpon which to spend our money?

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: earthmother ]


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
JCL
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posted 04 November 2001 05:05 PM      Profile for JCL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cripes. Another poster whining about skin color. If the white population of Canada and the US didn't want the minorities in their countries, they'd have stated that a long time ago. But both Canada and the US do not judge people by the color of their skin. I'm white. But I have friends and associates of different ethnic groups and skin color. So, while you're off bashing the white population, why not form some KKK version of your ethnic group that are against whites, Jahangir.

Man, where is WingNut? Isn't he in charge of troll pest control?


From: Winnipeg. 35 days to Christmas yet no snow here. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 04 November 2001 09:21 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Relax.
It was an interesting point. I started this topic after reading news from various other countries. The headlines don’t reflect the current crisis that we are dealing with. The two countries I was reading about was Nicaragua and Cambodia. They have far more urgent matters to deal with, while Canada is navel gazing and freaking out over an anthrax epidemic and the impoverished Bayer pharmaceutical company despite the fact that not one Canadian , except for a heard of buffalo a few years back, hasn’t even come close to getting the disease. Aids, flooding, illegal logging, crushing poverty, child prostitution, and now with the US economic slow down some serious problems are starting to take shape.
Surely there must be a better way to solve some these crisis personally I don’t think it has anything to do with skin colour but I do think that our global past has shaped our present and our present is shaping the future. It’s bizzare how a mass exodus or mass murder can have no effect on first world, or the West for lack of a better term, (help me with the terminology Panjaj) governments.

From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 05 November 2001 04:49 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nothing that happens to ordinary people (of any colour) has an effect on Western governments, because the lines are drawn, not on pigmentation or geography, but on income.

Under $100,000US a year, you are fodder. Between $100,000 and $1,000,000, you are a minion. Between 1 and 10 mil, you are an associate (or running dog, depending on one's point of view). At around the billion a year mark, you get a vote. At 50 billion, you get a veto on the fate of minor countries and a place at the poker table.

Race, like religion, is a distraction to keep the fodder busy bashing one another while their pockets are picked.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 05 November 2001 10:22 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have an idea that very quickly an Iron Curtain is going to go up for immigration into the West


The birthrate in the West is too low for that to happen. We need immigrant labour, desperately.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zatamon
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posted 05 November 2001 10:54 AM      Profile for Zatamon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought we solved that problem by exporting our factories to the source of immigrant labour.
From: where hope for 'hope' is contemplated | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 05 November 2001 11:54 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Tell that to the many employers who can't find the skilled people they need.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 05 November 2001 08:42 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The company I work can't seem to train our cheap immigrant annd refugee labour. They are entering the work force totally unprepared. In the dental lab where I work, which reqiures skilled labour, they couldn't figure out how to get out of a soggy paper bag with a chainsaw. Partly because they haven't grown up in a corparate culture and haven't learned the language of corparate speak (let alone English). In the end they are exploited here instead of there.
I can say without a doubt that the company is the author of its own misfortune. They seem to live in some dreamworld where people work to gain a profession and a quality of life. Persevere, work hard for low pay, try to “make it”. The cuts to ESL, rent controls, low minimum wages etc in an advanced economy, such as ours that requires skilled labour, renders people who want to better life into running on a treadmill.

I was wondering why Canada has to import skilled labour from other countries when we are more than capable of training our own? We seem to be the first ones bawling about brain drain but at the same time soliciting professionals, such as nurses, doctors and dentists, from countries that require these skills way more than we do.
Someone please fill me in. I must be missing part of the picture here.

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Pimji ]


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 November 2001 10:59 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's because all the "brain drain" nutjobs whine and snivel about people going south to the USA and conveniently ignoring all the skilled people we cherry-pick from Third World countries.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 November 2001 11:03 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and stick in taxi cabs in Toronto.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 06 November 2001 01:58 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm in the mood to nit-pick tonight.

How many of those skilled jobs really need doing? How many of the products really need making? How many skilled employees have been down-sized (rationalized, harmonized, homogenized, or whatever the buzz-word is this week) and then expected to stay in suspended animation until industry should need them again?
Have you noticed? We're not running a particularly sane economy.

Second quibble:
I have a problem with the whole concept of numbering worlds. Who, exactly is the First World, and which is the Third, and what happened to the Second?
The euphamism 'developing countries' doesn't work any better for me. Developing from what into what?
Was it God's Plan to turn the globe into one big factory?
Or are different regions and countries (for that matter, i'm not real happy with the concept of nations) supposed to have different characters?
What if it were possible to have a variety of self-contained economies?


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 06 November 2001 02:18 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Was it God's Plan to turn the globe into one big factory?

Well space is sometimes called the heavens and that would include everything that isn't on this planet. So maybe we are the product of some third world from the sun where it was cheaper and safer to produce that toxic little buggers that we are. After all isn't everything else made in heaven? I wonder if that is where the second world went?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 November 2001 02:27 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm with you nonesuch.

Let's nitpick some more. The brain drain is a lot of hype. People do not leave Canada for lower taxes. They leave for jobs and money.

Canadian corporations use the so-called brain drain as an excuse to leverage more tax cuts for higher earning Canadians, namely, themselves.

Most highly skilled graduates begin looking for jobs prior to graduation. They go to job fairs, submit resumes and some are courted. Canadian corporations, you might not have noticed, are mostly owned by U.S. parent corporations. As such, they do little or no actual R&D. So, if you are a scientist or an engineer of some sort, chances are you will not find suitable employment in Canada. Look for it down south. This is one of the disadvantages of being subsidiary economy.

We might recall a major brain drain back in the early 60's when our aerospace engineers all headed south after it was decided Canada didn't need an aerospace industry. Being drawers of water and hewers of wood and pumpers of oil, we really don't need any brains.

And then there is the old "we don't have enough (fill in blank) to fill all the jobs."

Today it is IT professionals. In the 60's and 70's it was electronic technicians. So they opened up the community colleges and pumped out electronic techinicians by the hundreds and thousands with the result that wages in the field fell from respectable levels to minimum wage. In the 90's community colleges dropped electronic technician programs. No longer needed.

So now, colleges and private business colleges are pumping out MSCE's, network specialists, database specialists and every type of IT specialist you can imagine. Welfare and EI recipients are being pushed into IT retraining. Is the shortage really that bad? Maybe at the high-end in engineering and development, but those folks all are in the States where they are really wanted. But at the lower end, well, try and find a decent tech job. Good luck. Sure, they are out there but the wages are falling like Wal-Mart's prices. Everyday.

And what really irks me is when the press begins parroting industry and everyone buys into it like it must be true because it is in the news. Corporations only speak when they have an agenda. And what they say is only ever intended to advance the agenda.

Remember free trade? We should be swimming in jobs, jobs, jobs, by now. Remember technology? We should be living a life of leisure a decade ago. It is a sales pitch, people. Recognize it.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 06 November 2001 02:31 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have a problem with the whole concept of numbering worlds. Who, exactly is the First World, and which is the Third, and what happened to the Second?

The Second World up until 1991 was composed of all the Communist countries except China, North Korea, Cuba and Vietnam.

The basic premise behind the label was that their citizenry, while not at the standard of living occupied by those in the non-Communist industrialized nations, were intermediate between the extremes of the First World and the semi-industrialized or non-industrialized nations generally found in South America, Africa or Asia.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 554

posted 06 November 2001 10:15 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"Brain Drain" is, indeed, a overly-hyped catch-phrase. But Canada is, indeed, facing a skills shortage.


http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/articles/read_article.cfm? aid=qstwzmzsttnqstwlwqssmnqstptnqq&from_search=1

quote:
How many of those skilled jobs really need doing? How many of the products really need making? How many skilled employees have been down-sized (rationalized, harmonized, homogenized, or whatever the buzz-word is this week) and then expected to stay in suspended animation until industry should need them again?
Have you noticed? We're not running a particularly sane economy.

They're downsized because they don't have the NEEDED skills. "High-tech" is a buzzword. Just because a person has "high-tech" skills doesn't mean they're guaranteed a job. Private "high-tech" colleges and public community colleges are pumping out web designers, e-business techs, network administrators, etc. As such, there's a glut of people in those fields. What the tech industry is really short of are the high-level programmers and engineers. That's the kinda thing you need a good, up-to-date, university education for. The M.I.T., CalTech and Waterloo grads are the ones in demand. Knowing Javascript and HTML doesn't really cut it.

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 06 November 2001 10:21 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So then, the Second World fell into the Third World, to provide more fodder for the First World?
It's so fluid, this downward mobility. Could be a lesson there?

Oh, M'Boy! NEEDED skill?
Needed by whom, for what and how long?
I know first- and second-hand examples of exceptionally skilled and experienced people recruited to do a demanding project, and the whole damn thing floudering to an incredibly expensive standstill because management - far too much management, arrayed in far too many layers, had dark brown mush for brains.
And that's without even addressing the question of whether the project was going to benefit anyone.
When we talk about what kind of technical training may be able to compete with suckers from Bulgaria who work without pay, we're still talking about the vicissitudes of fodder, not fundamental economic issues.

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged

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